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Sun Dec 20, 2020, 08:41 AM

Could Trump's current level of support reflect the lack of real pushback from Democrats?

Did we do enough over the last 4 years? I know we had a lot of strong condemning statements. We took back the House in 2018. But did we really do enough?

In a month in a half Republicans have shown more pushback against Biden than we did in 4 years of Trump. Granted, it's half-assed and stupid. But it's out there for their supporters to see.

Why didn't we pass and continue to pass multiple articles of impeachment? Why didn't we question his legitimacy? Why didn't we point out that he was ruling against a majority of the people everyday?

The House could have shut down the government.

We could have protested harder. From day 1 of his presidency.

Even now, we seem content to let the clock run out and hope nothing bad happens.

We shouldn't be negotiating with covid relief. We should demand the original bill get a senate vote. And our leaders should be on tv 24/7, running ads about how Republicans want us to starve. But we aren't. We are letting Republicans get away with a watered down bill that does little to nothing of substance.

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Reply Could Trump's current level of support reflect the lack of real pushback from Democrats? (Original post)
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 OP
hlthe2b Dec 2020 #1
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #2
hlthe2b Dec 2020 #27
Budi Dec 2020 #30
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #31
hlthe2b Dec 2020 #33
luv2fly Dec 2020 #3
JI7 Dec 2020 #8
whathehell Dec 2020 #16
luv2fly Dec 2020 #19
mpcamb Dec 2020 #22
uponit7771 Dec 2020 #34
Bettie Dec 2020 #32
exboyfil Dec 2020 #4
rainy Dec 2020 #5
KG Dec 2020 #6
ProfessorGAC Dec 2020 #10
JI7 Dec 2020 #7
JI7 Dec 2020 #9
PSPS Dec 2020 #11
beachbumbob Dec 2020 #13
Kaleva Dec 2020 #17
modrepub Dec 2020 #12
Chainfire Dec 2020 #14
ismnotwasm Dec 2020 #15
AkFemDem Dec 2020 #18
UCmeNdc Dec 2020 #20
NRaleighLiberal Dec 2020 #26
Mariana Dec 2020 #47
StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #21
Dem4Life1102 Dec 2020 #25
Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #23
Codeine Dec 2020 #24
Roisin Ni Fiachra Dec 2020 #28
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #29
Septua Dec 2020 #35
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #36
LizBeth Dec 2020 #37
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #38
LizBeth Dec 2020 #39
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #41
LizBeth Dec 2020 #42
Buckeyeblue Dec 2020 #43
LizBeth Dec 2020 #45
Cha Dec 2020 #48
LizBeth Dec 2020 #49
ibegurpard Dec 2020 #40
Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #44
Cha Dec 2020 #46

Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 08:44 AM

1. Blaming Democrats for what is not within our (constitutional or practical) power? Really?

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 08:46 AM

2. Everything I suggested w is within our constitutional power

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:23 AM

27. Always the cop-out of blaming Democrats. We did impeach his ass and held firm throughout.

You want miraculous, yet constitutional results against someone who has no regard whatsoever for the rule of law and the constitution--and with a corrupt party behind him.

I see no plan in your post--iust bemoaning, accusing and playing Monday morning quarterback with no appreciation nor acknowledgment of the legal and political barriers. Sorry, nothing you wrote can be taken seriously IMO. Yes we are all disappointed, angry, frustrated and horrified by the past four years. Time to look forward and appreciate how hard many of us DID work to turn him out and to start a course correction that begins NOW.

You say "We could have protested harder. From day 1 of his presidency." As one of the million-plus women who DID protest him on day 1 across the country and among those countless numbers who did so throughout these four years, I find your lack of memory on this really offensive. What did YOU do?

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:50 AM

30. K & R Thank You!

It must be Sunday morning
🙄

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:58 AM

31. My plan is to fight back with more than strongly worded statements

I want to see action. GOTV efforts are part of it. But the space between votes can be devastating.

I want McConnell to be a little bit afraid of the Democratic leader in the Senate.

I think most of our elected leaders have never had to fight or get a little ugly. Sure, a few have but they aren't in leadership positions.

My criticism isn't meant to be aimed at all of us. Myself included. If we truly feel like Trump is a threat to our country, we should be ready to sacrifice. My grandfather's generation sacrificed a great deal when our democracy was threatened. I, for one, have sacrificed nothing.

We just need a new strategy. We dodged a bullet (hopefully) this time. We may not next time.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 11:03 AM

33. Your lack of awareness of what has happened the past four years and why

tells me you've likely just woke up politically and find it convenient to hold those who DID work to defeat Trump and to restrain as much damage as possible the past four years with disdain. You need to educate yourself first and maybe join some of us who have been fighting all along.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 08:55 AM

3. Agreed wholeheartedly

Waaaay more pushback. It's not "blaming Dems" but rather holding them accountable to US, their constituents. Remember us, the people who put you in office?

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Response to luv2fly (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:10 AM

8. It's Republicans who don't hold him accountable including a majority of white voters

especially white men.

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Response to luv2fly (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:38 AM

16. I also agree.. I think our party, on the whole, needs to get

tougher and more aggressive.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:02 AM

19. Amen!

And I'm not even religious

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Response to whathehell (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:16 AM

22. I agree about toughness, and doing it thru the courts. So much should have been challenged.

They, tho a smaller party, outflanked us, picking up governorships, reps and state influence all over the country. They had and have an army of lawyers working full time behind the scenes on policy and laws they can evade, corrupt and negate. The dirty work that trump and crew performed day to day didn't come out of nowhere; their clumsy handling of it might have, but R's research what they can pretzel-twist into their advantage in anticipation of slipping bullshit ideas into the mainstream- corporations are people, money is speech, etc.

We've got the numbers, most of the time. They've got 'Lawyers, Guns and Money', to quote Warren Zevon. That's not going to change, but how we fight back should. And much of it should be in effective use of the courts.

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Response to mpcamb (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 11:12 AM

34. +1, legitimacy of the courts stops the stupids arguments dead in their tracks

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Response to whathehell (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 11:00 AM

32. I agree as well

with both of you.

We need to be aggressive and never, ever back down, hammer messages every time there's a camera around and worry less about "civility"...stop worrying about 'civility' at all. They don't. Ever.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 08:57 AM

4. I think we thought that the voters

would recognize we were the only adults in the room It appeared that was the trend in 2018.

I still don't understand 2020. I think maybe I do understand it, but I don't want to accept it.

As far as the messaging. You are right. We don't do that well at all. I still can't believe how many people who depend on a social security check are still voting for Republicans. They are clearly showing their goal of eliminating the funding source for it. Why that isn't being used right now in Georgia is beyond me.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:01 AM

5. It's the age old story. It's all about money

Democrats can never fight as hard or as fierce or as petty or as stupid. We will just get slapped down by the corporate owned media that survive off of rich corporate advertising dollars whose owners are mostly Republican. That is why even their most ridiculous fake outrages get so much airtime. Even their worst get more airtime and print than our best.

We are the bullied and ridiculed even though we are smarter and harder working and fighting for what Americans really want. Can’t let the people know that democrats are the better choice for their own good because that would take away from the rich and powerful!

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:04 AM

6. his support may seem a mile wide, but it's an inch deep. 1-21-21 return to being a political nobody

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Response to KG (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:18 AM

10. +1

The power & status of the presidency is being underestimated by many, i think.
Once the tool is out of power, its significance will fade. Even the most ardent cultists will come to realize the PIRV can't really do anything any longer. They'll find a new golden idol.
As more comes out with no protocol limiting legal & journalistic pursuit of failures or crimes come out, the folks that vote R over guns, or "the economy" or strong foreign affairs, or whatever, while still R, will stop seeing him as a path to anywhere.
It won't be instantaneous, but it won't be years either.
The sentiments will still be out there, but less blatant & more latent.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:09 AM

7. No, that makes no sense. Most of Trump's support is from White People who are racists .

Majority of white people have voted for a republican to be President ever since Civil Rights was passed .

Lets stop denying the reason for much of Trump's support.

The few who aren't so openly racist support him because they fall for the Democrats are going to bring socialism and get rid of Cops and other bs attacks from Republicans. In this area we can try to do something such as Bill Clinton did which helped Democrats win back the white house.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:12 AM

9. WE DID pass impeachment and question his legitimacy . You excuse White Racists who support him

You blame Democrats who are largely non white for the large numbers of white people that support him.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:21 AM

11. trump's "level of support" will wane as the media spotlight goes elsewhere

There's always a bedrock 20% or so who are gung-ho fascists but the rest just reflects the malleable crowd that "seen it on the TEE-VEE." You can already see it in the rapidly-declining percentage of people who claim they won't get vaccinated.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:28 AM

13. I disagree, the 20% figure is off biggly as the GOP rabid base is now the majority of the GOP voting

 

base. Figure 40-50+ million diehard trump VOTERS as a minimum who will gravitate to next charismatic authoritarian GOp'er. That is significant amount and easily will win primaries with that level.

the real concern is not trump, but who is going to be the NEXT trump. 2022 and 2024 can be awful for democrats as we will see coming from M$M is blame on Biden and democrats at every juncture going forward.

The real bullet to dodge is still coming in the future

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:45 AM

17. about 29% of the adult population in the US voted for Trump.

And many of those who voted for Trump are people who happily voted for McCain and Romney.

My guess is that hardcore support for Trump or a candidate like Trump is at best in the low double digits and could possibly be down in the single digits.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:24 AM

12. State and Local Governments Are Going To Layoff Like Crazy

if nothing changes next year. Most state tax collections are way off from where they should be. They've been treading water for almost a year. If the vaccine roll out goes as slowly as planned then there will probably be more economic pain mainly focused on the lower stratus of the economic ladder; the stock market and banks will probably not be too affected.

The party in control usually takes a hit when the perceived economy goes south. Republicans won't lift a finger to help since they expect to win the House next cycle and take a chance with the Senate. They are more vulnerable next cycle no matter what happens in GA. Shrewd calculation but Republicans seem adept at holding onto power and using it to their advantage.

Biden and the Democrats would be wise to focus all their energy in rolling out the vaccine and giving whatever financial support they can get through Congress or make up on their own. The quicker the economy can get back to normal (and tax flows can return to normal) the better their prospects in 2022.

Democrats need to make some real structural changes to counter the pain they are going to experience when the Republicans return to power. Sorry, the American people love splitting who's in control and things are always in flux. It would behove them to make more programs that dole out federal tax money state matching. State's have to "buy in" with their own money for the programs they want. They should help alleviate the red state take at the federal level. Identifying "socialist programs" like farm subsidies and PPP abuse would also be helpful.

It would also be nice if most of us stop fighting against the stock market boogie man and encourage folks to make investments in the companies they work for. Stock ownership is generally lucrative and has the side benefit of proxy voting. If more folks actually owned stock in their companies they work for then they'd actually get to vote for (or against) their corporate boss' executive compensation. Stock ownership, even for small investors, needs to be encouraged. It's just as important, IMO, as registering to vote and showing up for every election.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:34 AM

14. Democrats work rationally, within the system of laws, the Republicans aren't hampered in that way.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 09:35 AM

15. Oh hell no

In a month in a half Republicans have shown more pushback against Biden than we did in 4 years of Trump. Granted, it's half-assed and stupid. But it's out there for their supporters to see.


Any number of Trumps cronies ended up in jail. Lawsuits stopped or slowed some of his most egregious moves.

What state do you live in?

Washington state fought tooth and nail. Multiple lawsuits. Many “protests” starting from the historical first women’s March.

Shutting down the government is not the best political technique to maintain power. Why do you think “passing articles of impeachment” is easily done? Trump exploited weaknesses in our system that assumed a half way decent person with some integrity would have the Presidency.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)


Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:13 AM

20. No one wants to talk about conservative news media propaganda and how it controls the white rural

americans view of the world.

Everyone says look at the weak democratic party politicians. But never questions the power of conservative media propaganda and its ability to block out any real messaging of the Democratic Party.

Conservative media with its relentless propaganda efforts all aimed at controlling the rural white Americans minds and beliefs. That is what is drowning the Democratic politicians and diluting their message. IMHO.

(Hint: Drive a Truck in the GOP controlled USA and listen to the coordinated conservative media messaging. That is why you have white people voting against the Democratic politicians in mass.)

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Response to UCmeNdc (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:22 AM

26. this!

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Response to UCmeNdc (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 01:21 AM

47. The churches are a big factor as well.

The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump. Among white Evangelicals, it was about 80%. Much of his support is frankly religious in nature. Christian churches are preaching that loyalty to Trump and the Republican Party as a tenet of their faith. Popular and influential Christian leaders openly campaigned for Trump right on the television and radio, and are openly supporting his false claims that he won and his efforts to overturn the election now. None of them have any fear of losing their tax-exempt status, because the Johnson Amendment hasn't been enforced for ages. This has to end.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:16 AM

21. No

But I'm not going to argue about it here since that will just end up in the kind discussion that would make a political debate with The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started A Conversation With At A Party seem enlightening.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:19 AM

25. This +1

 

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:17 AM

23. Absolutely not. His base are racist, misogynistic, homophobic

wanna be fascists. There is no “pushback” against that. Separating children from their parents? Hey, shouldn’t have brought them here. “Grab them by the pussy”? What’s so wrong with that. He just said what every man thinks. Lost the election? Toss it and let him stay.

Exactly how do you “pushback” against people who are truly ok with every single awful, hateful thing he’s done?

We win by GOTV as Stacey Abrams has done spectacularly.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:19 AM

24. Oh good grief. nt

 

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:26 AM

28. Partially, maybe, with respect to long term short sightedness,

and a long term tendency to engage in appeasement of, and bipartisanship, with fanatical authoritarian fascist bigots.

Republicans are not, and never were, nice people. Their entire agenda has always been one of disgraceful inhumanity, economic injustice, and intolerance. I will never understand, how, over the long term, that Democrats have failed to recognize that a Republican is just a Nazi waiting to happen.

Democrats are the adults in the room. We should have been pointing out that Republicans are nothing but anti-American fascists the day Nixon was elected. The situation we are now in with little Adolf trying to become dictator is, to a great extent, the result of long term appeasement of fascists.

Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, GW Bush, Trump...all inhumane fascist authoritarian bigots who robbed from the poor to give to the rich.

If we continue to fail to message that Democrats are the true friend of working class people everywhere, that Republicans are nothing but anti-democratic, authoritarian fascists intent on destroying democracy, and we begin immediately to aggressively act to block the avenues that Republicans use to promote and legitimize fascism and destroy democracy, then the fascists will destroy our democracy as quickly as they possibly can.

The GOP is the greatest threat to our democracy, and the most dangerous enemy of the sovereignty of United States, that presently exists The majority of Republicans have supported Trump's coup attempt, and make no mistake, they will rejoice if he somehow succeeds in his quest to become dictator.

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Response to Roisin Ni Fiachra (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 10:43 AM

29. But being the adult in the room gets you nothing

Honestly, when we let Republicans weaken unions, when we took the union support for granted, we lost our edge.

Ron Johnson talked to Gary Peters like he was a dog in a committee meeting last week. And the best Gary Peters could do is say he was outraged. He should have taken that opportunity to lay out Johnsons bullshit item by item. Or he should have walked over and slapped the shit out of him. Honestly, we all have his back.

Instead, we apologize for calling Republicans fuckers. They are fuckers.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 11:33 AM

35. Are we watching...

..the same fake news channels?

"Why didn't we pass and continue to pass multiple articles of impeachment? Why didn't we question his legitimacy? Why didn't we point out that he was ruling against a majority of the people everyday?"

All those points were pretty much covered on a daily basis by MSNBC and CNN, by both the news journalists and D.C. Dem lawmakers. Trump and the GOP has bitched and whined for the past 4 years about the 'unfair' media coverage. If "we" had been the media and the majority, Trump would have been run out of town in the first year.

The facts had him dead to rights on the 'abuse of power' impeachment trial but the GOP Senate was too chickenshit to convict, or even give a slap on the wrists. Even if the Senate had had the same slim Dem majority, he wouldn't have been convicted. The House could have initiated impeachment inquiries, one after another, and the end result would have been the same.

And the Dems had to deal with the near daily accusations of trying to reverse the 2016 election. So, there probably was some bad politics involved with continuing to 'beat the dead horse'. I'm not politically astute enough to get into that discussion.

But it all goes back to what has been said since from the beginning...the GOP abandoned their sworn obligations and put Party over country...and continue to do the same. Trump was the trigger but the GOP held the gun.


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Response to Septua (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 11:44 AM

36. I don't disagree with you however

If we fall back on the Republicans not holding him responsible, does that mean we are essentially powerless? There is nothing that we could do better?

I think there needs to be a postmortem done on the last 4 years. We need to really be prepared to look in the mirror and be honest about our strategy and our actions.

I think one lesson (and I'm not sure we have learned it) is that winning is everything.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 12:39 PM

37. You are awfully cavalier with people's lives who in a couple days will no longer be treading, but

will sink.

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Response to LizBeth (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 02:51 PM

38. I don't think the bill as it is being touted will help much.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 02:59 PM

39. Millions, over 12 Million people will be able to tread a while longer so pretty damn uninformed or

worse to suggest 600 a week between reg UI and added 300 will make a difference in our lives. I do not know if next week I will get take home about 500 to pay my bills or if I will have zero to pay my bills.

I just checked my job apps for two position I fille3d out a week ago. One job has 100 apps, another 120. This 59 yr old is not likely to be hired regardless of my experience.

Not gonna help. What an insult and maybe why you made that first statement of yours.

Pelosi understood all the way in DC how much so little will help, to get us thru until Biden gets in.

Millions. Millions dude, let that sink in.

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Response to LizBeth (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 05:25 PM

41. I get that. And if I was in Congress I would have to ultimately support it for that reason but...

It should be so much better. We've gotten so used to settling for less and less for those that truly need it. And we have grown accustomed to watching those who don't need it get more.

I honestly want pitch forks and fire. I want politicans to be afraid when they fuck over people.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 06:07 PM

42. "I don't think the bill as it is being touted will help much." Didn't sound like you got it.

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Response to LizBeth (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 06:20 PM

43. I should have said...do as much as we need it to do.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 06:25 PM

45. It will do exactly as much as what is needed until Biden gets in and are able to do more.

Look, I am not into just shallow blame or dismissal. This bill will exactly do what is needed hopefully for those of us being kicked off tomorrow and a week from now. What is NEEDED right here and now is to extend UI. That is a must. Democrats, the ones that have constantly been fighting for this for the last 6 months well knows it is not enough. Everyone gets that so you are singing to the choir. Biden himself has stated not near enough but have to save PPEs, small business and UI.

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Response to LizBeth (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 01:49 AM

48. Exactly, LB.. PE Biden & VPE Harris Understand THAT!



DECEMBER 20, 2020
PRESS RELEASES

Statement from President-elect Joe Biden on Bipartisan Agreement on COVID-19 Relief

I applaud the bipartisan Congressional economic relief package that will deliver critical resources to fight COVID-19, including funding for vaccine distribution, and much needed temporary relief for workers, families, and small businesses. In November, the American people spoke clearly that now is a time for action and compromise. I am heartened to see members of Congress heed that message, reach across the aisle, and work together. This is a model for the challenging work ahead for our nation.

This bill provides critical temporary support for millions of Americans who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own, support to help keep families in their homes, and food on their table; and direct payments to help Americans make it through a dark winter. It gives a lifeline to small businesses struggling to stay afloat, having previously found themselves at the back of the line for relief. And, it provides an important down payment on the investment we need in vaccine procurement and distribution, helping deliver these incredible vaccines around the country and offer the American people protection and peace of mind that there will be light at the end of the tunnel.

But this action in the lame duck session is just the beginning. Our work is far from over.

On day one, my administration will be ready to undertake additional steps to get the virus under control and build our economy back better than it was before this crisis
. In our first 100 days, we’ll be asking all Americans to mask up for 100 days; we’ll have a plan to administer 100 million vaccine shots in 100 days and to get most schools open in the first 100 days. These are bold, but doable steps to contain the virus and get back to our lives. But we will need to act quickly. We need to scale up vaccine production and distribution and acquire tens of millions more doses. We need to undertake an ambitious plan to educate the American people in the efficacy and safety of these vaccines so that we can all reap the benefits of their protection. We need to do more to protect the most vulnerable among us who even now, in the midst of this holiday season, are desperate for real cause for hope.

As we do, we need to move immediately to create jobs and build back better than before. We cannot do this alone. Immediately, starting in the new year, Congress will need to get to work on support for our COVID-19 plan, for support to struggling families, and investments in jobs and economic recovery. There will be no time to waste.

But I am optimistic that we can meet this moment, together. My message to everyone out there struggling right now, help is on the way.



https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214741025#top

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Response to Cha (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 01:53 AM

49. +1

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 03:00 PM

40. Seriously?

I just can't...

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Sun Dec 20, 2020, 06:23 PM

44. No stop blaming Democrats.

And did you ever hear of a little thing called the Woman's march in DC and all 50 states. We don't have choice about this bill. People will starve without. We can't view folks as colterol damage.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 01:09 AM

46. Please Stop Blaming the Dems for the

GD Brainwashed MF trump Cult.

'We got record number of Votes for Dems with 81 MILLION.

I'm so sick of blame the Dems for WINNING!

Joe Biden won voters making less than 100,000 a year by double digits.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14733770

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