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Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:19 AM

 

I'm Not Sure How To Ask This... But... Is Anybody Else Feeling A Great Nauseous Forboding About...

our country, our political parties, our system of government, or personal rights regarding privacy and freedom itself ???

I know this is possibly the easiest question in the histroy of DU... possibly in the history of history...

But as one that used to love politics... I'm thinking the very foundation of this republic is now in tatters and at risk. The constitiution does in fact appear to be a "fucking piece of paper"... and...

BOTH Political Parties... are at fault.

WE THE PEOPLE... need to stand the hell UP!!!


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Reply I'm Not Sure How To Ask This... But... Is Anybody Else Feeling A Great Nauseous Forboding About... (Original post)
WillyT Dec 2011 OP
Whisp Dec 2011 #1
WillyT Dec 2011 #4
limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #6
Auntie Bush Dec 2011 #128
sasha031 Dec 2011 #145
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #8
joshcryer Dec 2011 #18
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #39
glinda Dec 2011 #54
librechik Dec 2011 #88
Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #13
leftyohiolib Dec 2011 #47
Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #104
leftyohiolib Dec 2011 #146
Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #152
chervilant Dec 2011 #126
Cal33 Dec 2011 #169
Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #170
UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #25
eilen Dec 2011 #37
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #40
Maraya1969 Dec 2011 #56
Jackpine Radical Dec 2011 #75
loudsue Dec 2011 #76
Turbineguy Dec 2011 #107
BlueToTheBone Dec 2011 #44
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2011 #61
Octafish Dec 2011 #62
Auntie Bush Dec 2011 #130
Octafish Dec 2011 #141
ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #73
kenfrequed Dec 2011 #95
ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #113
Auntie Bush Dec 2011 #132
kenfrequed Dec 2011 #156
Cal33 Dec 2011 #171
Fair Witness Dec 2011 #103
GoddessOfGuinness Dec 2011 #108
Cal33 Dec 2011 #173
DirkGently Dec 2011 #2
lpbk2713 Dec 2011 #3
Capitalocracy Dec 2011 #24
spanone Dec 2011 #5
Mojorabbit Dec 2011 #7
txlibdem Dec 2011 #9
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #10
truedelphi Dec 2011 #119
hatrack Dec 2011 #139
truedelphi Dec 2011 #167
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #11
WillyT Dec 2011 #16
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #20
NRaleighLiberal Dec 2011 #12
pscot Dec 2011 #79
Maccagirl Dec 2011 #138
Dover Dec 2011 #14
quinnox Dec 2011 #15
yurbud Dec 2011 #99
Johnny Noshoes Dec 2011 #116
joshcryer Dec 2011 #17
Aaria Dec 2011 #53
aquart Dec 2011 #91
truedelphi Dec 2011 #115
Auntie Bush Dec 2011 #136
joshcryer Dec 2011 #135
mojowork_n Dec 2011 #19
Aaria Dec 2011 #50
mojowork_n Dec 2011 #114
truedelphi Dec 2011 #117
mojowork_n Dec 2011 #121
Remember Me Dec 2011 #64
aquart Dec 2011 #93
brooklynite Dec 2011 #21
a simple pattern Dec 2011 #29
BeHereNow Dec 2011 #49
Aaria Dec 2011 #51
freefall Dec 2011 #58
smirkymonkey Dec 2011 #84
EC Dec 2011 #22
MannyGoldstein Dec 2011 #23
Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #147
Stargleamer Dec 2011 #26
WillyT Dec 2011 #30
treestar Dec 2011 #27
BeHereNow Dec 2011 #52
Remember Me Dec 2011 #65
pscot Dec 2011 #82
AlbertCat Dec 2011 #86
burrowowl Dec 2011 #28
Lugnut Dec 2011 #31
Kablooie Dec 2011 #32
Pachamama Dec 2011 #34
Kablooie Dec 2011 #69
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #41
hootinholler Dec 2011 #33
harmonicon Dec 2011 #35
Marrah_G Dec 2011 #36
deacon_sephiroth Dec 2011 #38
AlbertCat Dec 2011 #87
BlueIris Dec 2011 #42
BlueToTheBone Dec 2011 #43
judesedit Dec 2011 #45
Quantess Dec 2011 #46
SpankMe Dec 2011 #48
freefall Dec 2011 #60
LongTomH Dec 2011 #55
MoonRiver Dec 2011 #57
Little Star Dec 2011 #66
MadrasT Dec 2011 #68
chervilant Dec 2011 #127
frazzled Dec 2011 #59
MadrasT Dec 2011 #70
mmonk Dec 2011 #63
mistertrickster Dec 2011 #67
RobinA Dec 2011 #71
Hotler Dec 2011 #72
AZ Progressive Dec 2011 #174
DCBob Dec 2011 #74
L0oniX Dec 2011 #77
Kaleko Dec 2011 #118
BeHereNow Dec 2011 #78
Roy Rolling Dec 2011 #80
glarius Dec 2011 #81
AlbertCat Dec 2011 #83
RueVoltaire Dec 2011 #85
BeHereNow Dec 2011 #92
RueVoltaire Dec 2011 #112
Doctor_J Dec 2011 #89
nobodyspecial Dec 2011 #124
Doctor_J Dec 2011 #149
BeHereNow Dec 2011 #90
Texas Lawyer Dec 2011 #94
truedelphi Dec 2011 #166
Jack Rabbit Dec 2011 #96
yurbud Dec 2011 #97
ProSense Dec 2011 #98
Beavker Dec 2011 #102
Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #134
JitterbugPerfume Dec 2011 #100
Beavker Dec 2011 #101
Swede Dec 2011 #105
Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #106
UrbScotty Dec 2011 #109
UrbScotty Dec 2011 #110
Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #143
Doctor_J Dec 2011 #148
whathappened Dec 2011 #111
nineteen50 Dec 2011 #120
valerief Dec 2011 #122
FarCenter Dec 2011 #123
TNLib Dec 2011 #125
SteveW Dec 2011 #168
proud patriot Dec 2011 #129
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #131
Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #133
Mimosa Dec 2011 #137
jimlup Dec 2011 #140
Vanje Dec 2011 #142
RKP5637 Dec 2011 #144
Bonobo Dec 2011 #150
RKP5637 Dec 2011 #153
RKP5637 Dec 2011 #154
Bonobo Dec 2011 #158
truedelphi Dec 2011 #161
RKP5637 Dec 2011 #165
ananda Dec 2011 #151
RKP5637 Dec 2011 #155
Jamastiene Dec 2011 #157
Edweird Dec 2011 #159
Post removed Dec 2011 #160
WillyT Dec 2011 #162
Dewey Finn Dec 2011 #163
WillyT Dec 2011 #164
libtodeath Dec 2011 #172
Liberal_in_LA Dec 2011 #175

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:21 AM

1. Read this and everything else seems... less important.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2073686/Fountains-methane-1-000m-erupt-Arctic-ice--greenhouse-gas-30-times-potent-carbon-dioxide.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

The Russian research vessel Academician Lavrentiev conducted a survey of 10,000 square miles of sea off the coast of eastern Siberia.
They made a terrifying discovery - huge plumes of methane bubbles rising to the surface from the seabed.
'We found more than 100 fountains, some more than a kilometre across,' said Dr Igor Semiletov, 'These are methane fields on a scale not seen before. The emissions went directly into the atmosphere.'

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:31 AM

4. Holy Crap !!!

 








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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:32 AM

6. oh ok, methane trapped under the arctic ice being released causing much faster global warming...

I should have seen that one coming.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:01 PM

128. Most the Methane is now trapped under the ice...so when the sea ice is melted...

all the Methane will be freed and would cause a sudden increase in global warming. Say goodby to the polar bears and lots of other arctic animals.

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #128)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:21 AM

145. That was my first thought Auntie Bush

I remember reading about this a few years ago and being terrified and sad.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:33 AM

8. I remember reading about this as a dangerous potential scenario, over 12 years ago.

It was breathtakingly shocking then.
"rapid and severe climate change"....

2 more links I found, one in Der Spiegal
one from a New Zealand paper
so it is not the Daily Mail posting this.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547976,00.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10773020

Important to note that Der Spiegel article is long, and in it is this :
Natalia Shakhova also passed on the question of whether to expect a gradual gas emission or an abrupt burst of large quantities of methane.
"No one can say right now whether that will take years, decades or hundreds of years," she said.
But one cannot rule out sudden methane emissions. They could happen at "any time."

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:55 AM

18. *nod* Interestingly I'd posted that same Spiegel article in E&E earlier.

Great minds, and all.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:49 AM

39. ahhhhh..THERE you are.....good to see ya.

(

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:30 PM

54. In 1982 I had a class given by scientists that warned this IS the worse case scenario to avoid.



Also permafrost once melted creates a chain reaction to continue to melt with no hopes to stop it.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:07 PM

88. der spiegel article is from 2008

we'rre in the clear!

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:40 AM

13. Some are happy................

"It's time to read your Bibles, people; the water that fell during Noah's flood, causing the tilt to the planet, which caused the arctic & antarctic ice floes... that water will be returned to the heavens, in order to protect its inhabitants again - when the Messiah returns... The SKY is not FALLING, it's going back where it was... and there's not a DAMN THING man (obama) can do about it...! Personally, it gives me hope that SOON the WEEDS (immoral, God-hating, unborn-killing wacko nutcases - liberals, socialists, and their ilk) will be burned, and the WHEAT sifted, and the chaff burned away... Yeah, God!!!!"




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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:47 AM

47. angry dragon on a crazy train

 

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:27 PM

104. That is just a comment I found

on the article from post #1

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:45 AM

146. my apologies angry dragon

 

thought you'd gone bonkers

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #146)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:01 AM

152. I have gone bonkers however I did not write that

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:42 PM

126. Durn!

That poor person has got to be a hair's breadth away from cognitive dissonance...

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 07:48 PM

169. You don't like the idea of a loving and forgiving God?

 

Sorry, I didn't notice your quotes until I read the letter offering an apology.
I apologize, too.

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Response to Cal33 (Reply #169)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 07:55 PM

170. I will answer anyway.......

The thought of a loving and forgiving god is just fine

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:13 AM

25. That's not good.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/08/030828071722.htm

Methane Thought To Be Responsible For Mass Extinction

ScienceDaily (Aug. 28, 2003) —EVANSTON, Ill. --What caused the worst mass extinction in Earth's history 251 million years ago? An asteroid or comet colliding with Earth? A greenhouse effect? Volcanic eruptions in Siberia? Or an entirely different culprit? A Northwestern University chemical engineer believes the culprit may be an enormous explosion of methane (natural gas) erupting from the ocean depths.

In an article published in the September issue of Geology, Gregory Ryskin, associate professor of chemical engineering, suggests that huge combustible clouds produced by methane gas trapped in stagnant bodies of water and suddenly released could have killed off the majority of marine life and land animals and plants at the end of the Permian era -- long before dinosaurs lived and died.

The mechanism also might explain other extinctions and climate perturbations (ice ages) and even the Biblical flood, as well as be the cause of future catastrophes.

Ryskin calculated that some 10,000 gigatons of dissolved methane could have accumulated in water near the ocean floor under high pressure. If released quickly, perhaps triggered by an earthquake, the resulting cloud of methane would have an explosive force about 10,000 times greater than the world's entire stockpile of nuclear weapons. The huge conflagrations plus flooding and overturned oceans would cause the extinctions. (Approximately 95 percent of marine species and 70 percent of land species were lost.)

"That amount of energy is absolutely staggering," said Ryskin. "As soon as one accepts this mechanism, it becomes clear that if it happened once it could happen again. I have little doubt there will be another methane-driven eruption -- though not on the same scale as 251 million years ago -- unless humans intervene."

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:34 AM

37. So in essence,

Our world may spontaneously combust.

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Response to eilen (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:50 AM

40. AND "we" have done NOTHING to address the problem for decades, even knowing it was so.

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Response to eilen (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:47 PM

56. And we'll go out.....like a fart

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:50 PM

75. This is not a threat that one can easily blow off.

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Response to eilen (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:16 PM

76. Yep. Don't light a match!

Boom.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:00 PM

107. They've found something that

will save the republicans the trouble.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:17 AM

44. That does pale everyting by comparison

you are right. I have to sit with this for awhile because, wow.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:10 PM

61. I saw this too. My greatest fear is the cascading effect of human caused stresses on th environment

global overpopulation is destroying everything; habitats are degrading and biodiversity disappearing at fastest rates in geohistory.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:14 PM

62. Paraguay.

There's plenty of water for those who can afford it.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:13 PM

130. Is that were George Bush bought thousands of acres of land over the largest Aquafer

in the world? Or did he buy in Uruguay?

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #130)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:45 PM

141. Paraguay. Right next door to Rev Moon's spread.



On behalf of the BFEE, Neil Bush made himself right at home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3183814

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:48 PM

73. This too shall pass.

Life on Earth has always been a temporary situation.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:41 PM

95. Eh...

Life in the universe is sort of an organizing status... an inevitability. As much of a pessimist as I am, I cannot be quite that absurdly pessimistic

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:10 PM

113. Life may thrive on other planets, for a while.

Last edited Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

But suns have an expiration date. Unless we figure out how to control, or replace the Sun, life on Earth will definitely end.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:19 PM

132. Scientists say the sun will burn out in 5 billion years...so we have plenty of time

to find someplace else to inhabit. Somehow I don't think that's going to be our problem. Probably the lack of raw materials and food will be our demise...if we don't nuke ourselfs first.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 01:26 PM

156. Well...

That sort of thing is billions of years off. What we are talking about is people breaking glass to steal your stereo and then saying "well its just sand anyways... why are you so upset about windows"

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 08:18 PM

171. Our bodies are made up of atoms and particles that came from exploding stars and galaxies of

 

millions and billions of years ago. We are stardust material, and we will become stardust
material again some time. That's in the order of things from a physical point of view.
Do you find it so pessimistic?

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:03 PM

103. Nobody light a match!!

 

eek

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:46 PM

108. It's as if mankind has given the earth a giant bellyache

and no amount of Maalox is going to relieve that gassy bloated feeling.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 17, 2011, 02:56 PM

173. I'll bet corporations will say "It's not true," if they could make money from denying it. Somehow

 

these guys don't believe in the old saying, "You can't take it with you."

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:21 AM

2. Yep.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:26 AM

3. Corporatocracy rules.




And at this point I fear there is no way left to put the evil genie back in the bottle.


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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:13 AM

24. It's not just corporations, it's anyone who controls massive amounts of capital (like the Koch bros)

I call it a capitalocracy.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:32 AM

5. it appears that politics is no longer an idea business

it's broken.

it's corrupt.

it's bought and paid for.

combined with a media that appears to have an agenda

i'm not sure what you've got.





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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:32 AM

7. Yes. I read some posts and get a knot in the pit of my stomach. nt

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:34 AM

9. Definitely

RECC'd

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:35 AM

10. Clathrates we already know, they are for tomorrow. The Death of Democracy,

 

is for today. Yes, it is dead. Yes, we have to stand up and show that it isn't, so long as we are there to demand it.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:47 PM

119. What is the "clathrate" you refer to in your header?

Agreet hat democrcy is in its last throes, unless the Occupy movement can revive it.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #119)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:06 PM

139. Clathrates are a form of methane that is locked up in ice, usually deep under ocean sediment . . .

Or in shallower sediment in very cold water.

What sets clathrates apart from water ice is that when they melt, the methane once locked up inside comes bubbling out into the surround water and heads for the surface.

Last estimates I read stated that there were an estimated 10,000 billion tons of clathrates scattered around the polar oceans, though nothing near that total amount would get loose even if something like this melting process really got going.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #139)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 07:19 PM

167. I had never heard of this expression before.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. (I did know about methane being locked up, but didn't know it had a technical term.)

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:35 AM

11. Yes, not just the country.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:52 AM

16. nadin... It's Like Everybody In Power, Is In On Some Sort Of Giant Secret...

 

Not going conspiracy here... but...

From what I've been reading, the right sees the demographics, and sees this election as their "last chance"...

And the Democrats themselves may be seeing this as the last time they will be able to turn their government job into serious cash.

It's like everybody is rushing to the pot of gold.

I mean... if the fucking people actually end up getting representented... it will could be the end of the GRAVY TRAIN.


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Response to WillyT (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:57 AM

20. Why the American Elite Media

 

Keeps telling us that OWS has zero message. End of corporate personhood/ public funding of elections is the end of a huge money train...this is going to be a few billion race to the white house.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:40 AM

12. Absolutely....whether it is talks with my 83 year old mom, or during dog walks with my wife -

a repeated topic is on how totally, utterly screwed everything seems to be right now - the world over, in so many ways - environmentally, financially, ethically.....

I know that things go in cycles, but once you are at the bottom of one, it is by definition to see the way out of it.....

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:51 PM

79. Stepping off a cliff

is not cyclical.

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Response to pscot (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:49 PM

138. I've been pushed-I didn't step off a cliff.

 

n/t

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:45 AM

14. Not foreboding. I think things need to change. The real crossroads is

is not so much IF things are changing and falling apart, but what will take it's
place and WHO will decide our course and destiny. I think the corporations
would like very much to take full advantage of this very vulnerable transition to insert
themselves into the drivers seat. But honestly I just don't think they have the
kind of momentum and support to make it happen. Not the support of the majority of people
on this planet (they can't jail and kill us ALL for standing up against their corruption)
and the earth itself seems to be resisting with its own upheaval.

We, individually and collectively, need to BE the change right now and begin to resist where
resistance is needed, refuse to participate in corrupt and morally bankrupt behaviors
and with laws and institutions which no longer reflect our values and needs.
We need to tune into our own longings that are, in large part, fuelling our discontent with the
status quo and get focused on what we feel called to do. Just start.
If we'll just begin to follow our own inner guidance and trust that others are doing
the same thing all over the world, then things WILL begin to change. No significant change
comes without a "death" of the old, which is both painful and scary but also liberating.
We can, in essence, predict the future by designing it.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:50 AM

15. Recommended, I feel this "1984" Orwellian feeling is growing stronger

 

Cameras becoming prevalent everywhere, phones can be tapped much easier because of terror fears, etc, etc.

I can feel this in the air and it seems to be growing ever stronger and in the atmosphere more and more, its creeping me out frankly.

I honestly can foresee Orwell's vision eventually coming true, not just here in the United States, but world wide if people don't start to stand up for their privacy and freedom.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:52 PM

99. ANIMAL FARM seems more appropriate. We overthrew the farmer, but now the pigs are walking on their

hind legs and sending some of us to the glue factory anyway.

The analogy breaks down though because I don't think the pigs were ever us--they were farmers with masks.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:32 PM

116. Yeah but...

Yeah but we have cameras too watching the watchmen.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:53 AM

17. No, the environment has me more concerned.

I have 40-50 years left. 40-50 years in politics is plenty of time for progressive change.

40-50 years in a world with serious environmental problems? Not long at all.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:09 PM

53. When you look back and see what happened in Texas this year, nothing that was planted was harvested,

cattle sold off or slaughtered because of no feed, I think you should re-figure your estimate. Before serious food shortages take hold here in the States, 2 years tops. What we are seeing is the people in control trying to stay in control as SHTF.

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Response to Aaria (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:21 PM

91. Yah. People here don't imagine that famine could happen to us but we haven't planned at all.

States are worrying about illegal immigration instead of our FOOD and WATER.

The rich think they can't starve. Maybe they'll starve last. But if the economy craters so will currency so will property so will stocks and bonds...yeah. Eat gold.

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Response to aquart (Reply #91)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:32 PM

115. The myth and fable of King Midas has never been more pertinent.

The rich see everything as mere commodities to trade and gamble on.

But if everything becomes a mere means to the insider trader glut, than how are vitally important commodities protected?

I was around a close friend when his Silicon Valley-based company was poised to go public and its stock was to be worth
$ 1,600 a share. And he wouldn't lend me five dollars that I needed to drive home, because, as he explained to me, "Five dollars in my pocket is one more stock share, and it really is $ 1,600 bucks."

Luckily for me, I finally found a way to get my magnetized credit card to work, otherwise I would have had to stay in Silicon Valley!

PS - The purported uptick in the stock never materialized. The most the stock became worth was $ 48. And everyone, except the company receptionist, held on to the stock until it crashed along with all the other dot com stuff that crashed.

The receptionist cashed the stock in at the all time high of $ 48. And bought herself a great little condo. WHile the rest of the company ridiculed her for cashing in "prematurely."







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Response to aquart (Reply #91)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:34 PM

136. We supply so much of the worlds food... that if we ever have a famine...

most, if not all, of the third world would will be wiped out. I actually wonder if the southwest would be inhabitable.

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Response to Aaria (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:27 PM

135. My estimate was just based on my potential life cycle.

Assume I live to be 85-90, then that's how long I got left.

That's why I'm more concerned about the environment because environmental changes are happening here, now, and I will have to endure them, very soon.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:57 AM

19. On Thom Hartmann yesterday, I heard the 2 words, "claw back," w/ref to bank accounts.

It was in passing, I was at work. Googled it today and this is what I found:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=198650


"...you could lose everything in your bank and investment accounts -- every single dime.
Recently Bank of America transferred a bunch of derivatives into their banking arm. "A bunch" means
somewhere around $80 trillion worth... ....part of the bankruptcy "reform" law in 2005 placed
derivative claims in front of depositors in a business failure - including a bank failure.



What JP Morgan is claiming in the MF Global case is that the derivative trade (which is exactly what
a "Repo to Maturity" trade is - it's a derivative) is entitled to preference in the case of MF Global over
those who had cash there for safekeeping either as a margin deposit or just as free cash as you would
hold free cash in a bank.


If a major bank blows up this very same claim, supported in existing Bankruptcy Law with the
changes signed by George Bush in 2005, will be used to steal the entirety of your bank account,
and if you detect the impending blowup shortly before it happens -- say, 90 days before -- you're
still exposed to the risk through clawback!


Don't run any crap about FDIC insurance in this sort of event either -- in the singular case of Bank of
America we're talking about $77 trillion in face value of derivatives. While "notional" values are wildly
beyond what anyone would have to pay (as that figure assumes the reference all goes to a literal value
of zero) the fact remains that with even a 5% loss the amount of money required would be roughly
equal to the entire US Federal Budget, which the FDIC clearly does not have -- nor could it acquire.



I mean, WTF, the chips in the casino -- there are so many of them, it's like trying to calculate mass, or
the number of particles in a quantum physics problem -- outweigh actual, folding cash money, all the
sweat-from-brow-earned, deposits in Joe Lunch Buckets checking account.

Digital, bogus "bucket shop" investment instruments are "more real" than what everyone thinks of as
our (analog?) monetary system?


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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:01 PM

50. Apparently not many have heard of this little clause in the law. I thought

it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard of, then I thought of who we are dealing with, and figured they want it all and think that if they ever touched it they still get to keep it. To bad so many are walking through this time asleep. The propaganda that both sides are spewing has lulled so many to sleep they can do what they want and it doesn't even lift an eyebrow anymore. Good Luck.

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Response to Aaria (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:18 PM

114. Propaganda.... "on both sides." That's one of the key elements of the self-sustaining frame.

There are certainly hardened, hard-line, implacable types on both sides of the ideological divide.

But I think it's a mistake to characterize it as propaganda being "spewed" from both sides.

We 'vent' (often under conditions of explosively high pressure) in response to the deliberate,
manufactured distortions that dominate 'their' media.

But it's not really head-to-head, locked-horns, direct debate:

That would look like this:

--------------> <----------------

What's going on looks more like a perpetual motion machine, with the curves looping
around a circle.

It's hardly ever Problem > Solution vs. Alternate Problem > Solution. The debates
that exist are more childish than that, revolving around Identity Politics. "I'm
Rubber and You're Glue..."

But -- that there is a Right Wing Noise Machine / Echo Chamber goes without saying.

Faux News + Hate Radio AM + the 'official' news channels and PR outlets. Think
of an upside down pyramid, or a funnel. Gatekeepers at the top control the news
flow. With fewer and fewer (but always bigger and bigger) news companies running
the show, it's easier & easier to keep conservatives on all the Sunday AM chat shows.
It's easier to screen out comparably liberal spokespeople -- unless they're set up as straw
men.

Leading the parade is that whole cavalcade of clown car presidential candidates,
on the Republican side. Their debates are squarely aimed at the Freeperville /
Looney Tune right wing hard-line True Believers. That echo chamber resonates
with boos, hostility and rage, with the slightest provocation. It's not representative
of the American voting public, as a whole, but successes and failures are gauged by
their 'reactions,' in the Republican debates.

Goebbels and the Cold War Stalinist propagandists would be jealous with admiration.

if they could see the extent to which those folks have been programmed to respond,
to all the talking points, and Pavlovian bells and whistles.

But the reason for optimism is that it really is a weapon of Mass Deception.
"Psy. Ops." military grade psychological warfare. Plus a lot of persuasion through
straight brand marketing, fear and intimidation.

Miles wide but skin deep.

Under the surface, the physiological response mechanisms for pain and stimuli
are intact, even when they're being bombarded with fake stimuli.

Their nightmare is that we -- Americans, all of us -- will wake up to the extent to
which the mutual assured destruction, the demonization of both sides by the other,
is intentional. A tactic to divide and conquer and maintain rule.

So the few, at the top of the pyramid, can stay there.





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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #114)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:45 PM

117. So then, you are saying?

What exactly?

I do see Obama better than the Republicans, as under Obama we at least have Food Stamps. Oh and the stem cell legislation was badly needed also.

But we don't have NAFTA ended. We have new trade agreements added to NAFTA.

Instead of moving away fromt he direction that Bush/Cheney/Rove was taking us, Under Obama, we have the continuous leakage of wealth from the poorest to the rich, with criminal Geithner leading the charge. Meanwhile Bernanke continues unabated at his post, where he has already handed out fourteen trillions of dollars of loan.

We had the HC "reform" scam legislation, following springtime, we had the BP oil carnage. Obama's EPA went ahead and happily was allowing for an extremely toxic substance called Corextit to be released into the Gulf and onto the lands of the southeastern states. This product did not help the environment, but helped BP - as they paid themselves for purchasing it, and they used it to help the oil look like it dissipated, so that they wouldn't be fined anywhere near the amounts that they should have been fined..

Obama supports "clean coal, nuclear energy, including some 54 Billions of dollars to loan to his nuclear power friends.

He allowed for the continuation of the Bush tax cuts to the rich, bargaining these tax cuts away prematurely.

Our Federal budget continues to give away some 59 percent of revenues to the military. The military leaders say we will need more money to fight the war in Afghanistan as they have set it up so that it is more expensive to use drones than people on the ground. And the military experts continue to insist that we need to "modernize" the military - or we might somehow slip to number two. (Not even remotely possible -we have more weaponry, and war machinery than the next twenty five nations combined.)

While our states face horrendously disastrous budgets,. under Obama in just the last fifteen months, we have handed out more than 200 billions of dollars to UAE states for the upcoming war against Iran, and we have put some of these billions into the modernizing so "desperately needed by the military services."

200 Billions of dollars ought to have been spent on the 35 states that have massive deficits - but Geithner keeps telling the President that helping us here at home only contributes in a negative way to the deficit. Top economists like Stiglietz and Krugman say just the opposite - for example, putting a teacher or social worker to worker locally returns
$ 1.07 to the community, for every dollar spent, while using money for war is disastrous to most people here in the USA.





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Response to truedelphi (Reply #117)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:00 PM

121. Honestly, I wasn't trying to address any of that.

I wanted to say something useful about the whole, huge subject of "propaganda,"
HOW we talk about problems (usually not Problem > Solution, but Us > Them),
instead of WHAT the problems are, or the specifics of Obama's time in office.

Guess I didn't succeed very well.

What I wrote was a reaction to something the previous poster said, about "both sides
spewing propaganda."

But I agree with you on just about everything you wrote. (The original O.P. was
a little open-ended -- things that make us upset or crazy -- and people have been
responding in their own way, so this is still a good discussion.)

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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:20 PM

64. My God, they thought of everything, didn't they --

 

every conceivable way NOT to have to endure their own losses and stupidities, every conceivable way to loot, rape and pillage the average Joe and Joanne. I didn't think it possible to hate them more; I was clearly wrong.

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:23 PM

93. Yes. First they made theft legal and they stole everything.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:07 AM

21. Allow me to frame an answer this way...

There's an election to win next year. There'll be another election two years after that.

You can engage in nauseous foreboding if you want; I'll be busy.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:43 AM

29. Yes I think this deck chair really looks much better over here

 

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Response to a simple pattern (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:57 AM

49. LOL! Good one...n/t

BHN

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Response to a simple pattern (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:02 PM

51. I think the view is better from the poop deck.

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Response to a simple pattern (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:59 PM

58. Wish I could rec a response!

Your's says it all and so succinctly.

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Response to a simple pattern (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:58 PM

84. +1000

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:11 AM

22. Yes,

I'm afraid of States Rights winning out...Holder used the arguement that the Feds immigration laws over-ride the State immigration laws. It's true and would have been the easiest way to win that case, but that's what the repubs wanted I think. So he's been tricked into giving the Supreme Court a case that could give the States a hell of a lot more power. And Obama made the mistake of putting someone on the Supreme Court that worked on many of the cases that will be coming before the court which means recusal...which is what she did on this case...I have a feeling we are SO SCREWED.

Once the states have maga power, just think of the voting rights we'll be left with for one thing.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:38 AM

23. Actually, I'm feeling much better about things.

 

For 31 years, things have been getting woser and worser, and almost nobody noticed.

At least the frog is finally realizing that the water's gotten hot, so there is the *chance* to jump.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:18 AM

147. But Manny, I just got a letter

from the DLC that told me the water was fine - to come on in. They said we've got that old boiling thing handled and everything is hunky dory. (Oh. And send cash)

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:20 AM

26. What about a nauseous foreboding about climate change?

seems like one of the greatest perils of all.

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Response to Stargleamer (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:44 AM

30. Agreed... But Who Are The Gatekeepers To Fixing That ???

 

The people with the money...

I'll bet anybody here, that Keystone gets built, no matter WHO is in office.

And that's a bet I'd LOVE to lose.


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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:24 AM

27. Nope. Our system is a good one.

It has worked and will keep working though thick and thin.

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Response to treestar (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:03 PM

52. Ha-ha-ha-ha. Please pass the rest of us some of what you are smoking!

Our "system" as you refer to it, is broken.
Running on smoke and mirrors built with cards in the house of sand.

When our creditors pull the plug on our debt, the whole fucking thing
called "America" is going to collapse.

But not to worry- the top 1% will be fine.
BHN

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Response to treestar (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:24 PM

65. Oh, hell. I don't know how you can say that.

 

It isn't working NOW.

"Our system" has allowed fascists to seize power and steal our wealth. It has allowed corporations to run the government. IT'S NOT WORKING NOW and won't work again until or unless we wrest control of our government back from those who have usurped the power, probably via the Occupy Movement and whatever comes of it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:54 PM

82. You forgot the sarcasm thingy

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Response to treestar (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:05 PM

86. It has worked and will keep working though thick and thin.

 

I wonder if Tzar Nicolas thought the same thing.....

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:42 AM

28. In a way the U$A is more corrupt

than Mexico and the corruption is much more dangerous!

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:53 AM

31. You're not alone, Willy.

I don't know where I am. This is not the country I grew up in. I fear for my kids and grandkids and what the future holds for them.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:19 AM

32. Just wait until we wake up and find Newt Gingrich is our new president!

You ain't seen nauseous yet!!

I know it's unlikely but with so many imbecilic voters combined with Republican's willingness to illegally manipulate the results, it could be a real possibility.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:57 AM

34. If Newt's the nominee, hopefully that is enough to make the people stop complaining about Obama

...and instead get off their arsches and fight hard to get Obama re-elected because I think a President Gingrich wouldnt cause nausea, it would cause Montezuma's revenge and make people who thought the Bush/Cheney years were bad, instead look at them like the good old days.

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Response to Pachamama (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:39 PM

69. Just like Bush/Cheney made Reagan's regime seem like the good old days.

And Reagan made the Eisenhower years seem like the good old days.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:54 AM

41. There goes my breakfast.....

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:45 AM

33. Actually I'm feeling more hopeful these days

Occupy has given me hope. My fear is that things will turn even more violent over the summer.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:17 AM

35. I don't know... are you worried about the seaworthiness of the titanic?

It's a little late to get some foreboding feeling. That ship sailed long ago. There isn't anything left to be "at risk."

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:26 AM

36. Yes- I have the same feeling

I also don't have alot of confidence that the people will stand up. I think there would have to be a very significant catalyst.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:47 AM

38. I have felt that way since the Bush jr. admin.

I felt a little better during the Obama CAMPAIGN..... and not much better since.

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Response to deacon_sephiroth (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:07 PM

87. I have felt that way since the Bush jr. admin.

 

Yes, the selection of Dubya by the Supremes was the end of America.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:10 AM

42. Yes. A major crisis has been building for years,

alongside the "miniature" crises of the Bush Years and those of the current Administration. I blame the current Admin only in part, as much of the corruption had totally infected the courts, Congress and media long before we hit this zero hour moment.

For the first time this fall, I have come to believe revolution is possible.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:15 AM

43. I have been bouncing back and forth between

foreboding and exhilaration. Our candidate, Ken Aden is young (33), progressive as they come (endorsed by Raul Grivalja chair of the Progressive Caucus, the AFL-CIO, Blue America PAC so far.) Our party in Arkansas is in tatters. The leadership is filled with Gray Hairs and with the death of Bill Gawatney and the many recent losses and crappy candidates, the party in the 3rd District is almost dead.

But, the first thing Ken did was reach out to the young people. Right now we have 100 youth volunteers who are eager and ready to build their party. The plan is to build YD clubs throughout the district, putting them into high schools and community colleges and the universities. Each event we have will be staffed with youth volunteers. I had no idea that just their presence fills the room with energy!

Last night, we realized that not only are we running a campaign, we are building our party and getting it ready for the future. And the other thing that has lifted me so high is, I received and email from some people rsvp ing an event and they called Ken "Our Candidate". I almost wept.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:21 AM

45. Bravo WillyT. You are absolutely right. Get the money out of politics and there's hope. Go 99%

Recall these fascist bums at the same time.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:25 AM

46. That's why people are taking it to the streets.

The emperor has no clothes on, and everyone knows it (or at least has an inkling).

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:52 AM

48. You are exactly correct.

I share your "nauseous foreboding" completely. I, too, used to just LOVE politics - following the tussle between the two parties, taking an interest in what's going on. I thought that, for the most part, both parties had legitimate competing ideas that were worthy of debating (even though I almost always took the liberal side).

Today, though, I am finished with it. We aren't going by the constitution any more, yet we carry on as though we are. Plus, the conservative movement is doing things that injure the country at every turn - and they see this, but still won't back down.

My wife - who used to be an optimistic, almost tom-boyish adventurer and conservationist - has been completely propagandized by her ghoulishly conservative mother and is now in cynical lock-step with the tea party perspective on EVERYTHING. It's to the point where she blames Obama and liberals for everything she sees wrong, whether it has anything to do with the liberal/conservative axis at all - stuff like seeing kids misbehaving in public. ("It's that permissive, liberal 'if-it-feels-good-then-do-it' philosophy that Obama and liberals promote...". She's transformed. She's not the same person I married.

I blame the Cons for their new found radicalization, and the Libs for a complete lack of backbone to counter the Cons.

America as we knew it in more optimistic times is over. We're turning the corner into something new. And ugly. The next phase of America - a declining phase - has begun.

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Response to SpankMe (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:10 PM

60. Wow! Just yesterday I was feeling

lonely and lamenting the fact that I had been alone for over 20 years. After reading your post I think my situation may be better than having my partner change so drastically before my eyes. You must be hurting. I hope you get some solace from DU.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:38 PM

55. Is there anyone who isn't?

n/t

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:50 PM

57. I've had this feeling since 2000

when SCOTUS committed treason and chose the U.S. president. Never understood why we didn't stand up then.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:26 PM

66. +1000

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:36 PM

68. +1000

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:57 PM

127. +a gazillion n/t

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:08 PM

59. Nope

If you immerse yourself in the hyperbolic, doom and gloom world of those who want you to believe that this is some special time, worse than any other, and on the brink of a police state, you will believe this. If, on the other hand, you remember any of the following from your lifetime or recent history, you will recall that things have been far worse (with brief explanations for those who have forgotten or never heard of these things):

1. Cointelpro: (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert, and often illegal, projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations. Tactics included discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination. (Think: Fred Hampton) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

2. House Un-American Activities Committee: (HUAC) was created in 1938 to investigate alleged disloyalty and subversive activities on the part of private citizens, public employees, and those organizations suspected of having Communist ties. Through its power to subpoena witness and hold people in contempt of Congress, HUAC often pressured witnesses to surrender names and other information that could lead to the apprehension of Communists and Communist sympathizers. Committee members often branded witnesses as "red" if they refused to comply or hesitated in answering committee questions. ... served as the model upon which Senator Joseph McCarthy would conduct his investigative hearings in the early 1950s. http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/teachinger/glossary/huac.cfm

3. Iran-Contra: Secret shadow government activity in which arms were secretly and illegally sold to Iran and the profits were diverted to support Nicaraguan Contras, in express violation of the law enacted by Congress that forbid such funding.

4. Kent State shootings: On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University (antiwar) demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students. http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

5. Japanese-American internment: the relocation and internment by the United States government in 1942 of approximately 110,000 Japanese Americans and Japanese who lived along the Pacific coast of the United States to camps called "War Relocation Camps," in the wake of Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Of those interned, 62% were American citizens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

Okay, I don't have the time today to go on and on and on, but I could. About the depredations of the Civil Rights movement, where people were hosed and beaten to a pulp, the assassinations and race riots, the inequalities of the draft, which sent millions of unwilling young people off to war and to death or dismemberment.

And yes, corporate control: which has been an issue since the 1980s and people seem to think sprung full blown from the head of Medusa just in 2008 (or in the last decade). It's been with us for decades and decades.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:40 PM

70. Yes

While I am especially freaked out right now, I also remind myself that this country has survived and rebounded from some really messed up situations (like those you describe above). (Like gosh, that whole little Civil War thingy?)

I am distraught but I am not convinced it's "lights out for America". Yet.

(But the lights do get dimmer all the time from where I sit.)

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:18 PM

63. "But as one that used to love politics"

I understand that statement. Politics here in the US has become not such a democratic process anymore as it has changed, but more as a struggle to survive, be heard, and attempting to hold on to the positives we once had.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:33 PM

67. A two-party system is inherently flawed, imho.

 

The founders didn't want ANY political parties, so this is what developed by default.

Our system is a result of what happens when you don't have a system.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:40 PM

71. Yes

And I have since 1980 when I realized that people would actually elect Ronald Reagan.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:47 PM

72. "WE THE PEOPLE... need to stand the hell UP!!! "

It will not happen until more people feel the pain. To many still have the "I have mine. Fuck everyone else." attitude. Until more lose their jobs, their homes, go bankrupt from medical bills, it will ot happen. When NASCAR, NFL, MBA, tec. can't sell tickets we will be close. It is all about selfishness. A part of me says let the repugs have 2012 then the real pain will come.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 17, 2011, 05:18 PM

174. As if not enough suffering has been happening to people these past few years...

I can't imagine all the economic distress, the mental suffering, that millions of Americans have had to go through these past few years. More Americans don't deserve to be devastated.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:48 PM

74. I have been feeling that way for most of my life.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:34 PM

77. Heard on NPR today ...gov can activate your webcam and mic without you knowing.

 

This tech is currently being used on Iran and other countries govs and businesses. You know they are using it on us too. Hidden in Itune updates and other updates are gov key loggers, cam and mic access controls. This is NOT bull shit!

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #77)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:46 PM

118. My highly computer literate honey believes that to be true.

He's an Apple aficionado and knows what the United Surveillance States are capable of, roughly speaking.

We shut down our laptops before talking about certain topics these days - not because we're a threat to the PTB, no. Just because we cherish what's left of our privacy.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:40 PM

78. Anyone who isn't nauseous, drinking more than usual, and figuring out how to transfer their assets

OUT of the dollar, hasn't been paying attention for the last twenty years.
Never mind the assassinations of people who could have changed the script
thirty years ago.

BHN

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:52 PM

80. Doing it all again

I starting feeling the same way last week when I realized all the gains from the 1960s movments have been eroded and must be done all over again just to put the US where it was 40 years ago. *sigh*

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:54 PM

81. As a Canadian I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but every time I see an American on TV or read

on DU the thoughts you have expressed, it bothers me....because it seems to me that your President Barack Obama has had 3 strikes against him from the day he took office. Remember the Republican leader Mitch McConnell saying ...I believe it was on the first day of Obamam's presidency...."Our number one goal is to see that he is a one term president." It seems to me that everything Obama has tried to do they have fought against....even things they actually wanted.
To me he seems like a very good man who has been stymied.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:57 PM

83. The Repug lineup for Prez says it all....

 

... and not just about Repugs.

The USA is a joke... but not a too funny one. The rest of the world must be baffled.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:58 PM

85. It's hard NOT to feel a nauseous forboding when our police are armed for war against us,

and that any of us could be arrested and detained indefinitely, stripped of our fourth amendment rights, for using our first amendment right to peacefully assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I'm not glad that everything is so awful, but if things hadn't gotten this bad, I wouldn't have lost my belief in god, and I might still be praying for his intervention, and doing nothing to make this world better.
The only thing I believe in now is action!

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Response to RueVoltaire (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:22 PM

92. Wanna share a bunk in the gulag?

I'd like to be roomies with some one who gets it...
BHN

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Response to BeHereNow (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:59 PM

112. Cheers BHN!

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:14 PM

89. I think we should be HOPING for a collapse

 

Look at the Republican presidential candidates, let it sink in that one of them could actually be president, and you will realize that the current trajectory is hopeless.

As far as WE THE PEOPLE "standing up", we are also confined by the current system of laws that apply, of course, only to the proletariat. A complete collapse would free us up to do what needs to be done wrt (especially) the media. A very comprehensive purge of media moguls and personalities is absolutely essential for democracy to make a comeback. And those who would enact such a purge are afraid to act, or even think, as viciously as those who currently occupy Big Media. As long as we are content to believe that kneeling and getting pepper sprayed is "making progress", nothing positive will take place.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:28 PM

124. I don't know why people cheer for this

Millions will suffer in a total collapse and the outcome could actually be WORSE, not better.

Tell me exactly how you plan to carry out this purge?

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:46 AM

149. Millions are already suffering, more every day

 

and in the current system it will not get measurably better. Total collapse will shine a light on the desperation, and the 99% will rid the country of the 1%. As for how to enact the purge, you have to think outside the box.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:20 PM

90. Proud to be the 100th REC!

Fully feeling the impending collapse is very important as far as preparing for it.
The nausea is real- and a warning, centuries old, for survival among all living species.
BHN

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:30 PM

94. I think of the challenges to the Voting Rights Act pending at the US Supreme Court as the

canaries in the coal mine.

Citizens United was an almost lethal blow to humans (versus corporate non-humans) in our political system. Couple that blow with a rollback of the Voting Rights Act, and we'll need to find a more descriptive term than "democracy" to describe out American political system.

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Response to Texas Lawyer (Reply #94)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 05:20 AM

166. "Banana Republic Without the Bananas" is one term to consider.

I can remember reading about the status quo in Haiti some twenty years ago - Duvalier could have his limo pull up to any store in any neighborhood, and he'd go in and "shop". Once he knew what he wanted, one of his henchmen explained it to the store owner, and then the store owner saw to it that Duvalier left with the chosen items, no payment required.

So much of our commons has been plundered, that I think back to the time when I read about Duvalier's exploits. At that time, I felt so sad for the people of Haiti, not realizing that our government could plunder us here.

We watch as our health is destroyed so the Big Insurers and Big Phara can have their profits. One of the few people I know who has had a decent paying job over the last four years - she quit about two weeks ago. She was working for a dentistry franchise. They have started in ordering the cheapest of supplies. And have cut back so the staff is bare bones and overworked.

Why is this happening? So the franchise owners in Atlanta GA can have maximum profit. Patient care? Why should they worry about patient care? They have all that nice tidy profit to spend.

We watch as the Gulf of Mexico becomes a dead zone. Little penalty to BP, is there?

The money has all been handed over to those at the top, and now the "crisis in Europe" could mean this nation's public will once again have to bail out a mess of banks.

We are being robbed left and right, and the only people who are doing anything are those supporting the Occupy Movements.







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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:49 PM

96. Yes, I am

The current course which our leaders (the 1%) have plotted for the future is unsustainable. The nation will break down under the strain of inequality and tyranny brought about by deregulated capitalism, made even worse by the fact the economy is now based in finance capital rather than in manufacturing capital.

Equality of outcomes was never America's strong suit or even desirable. However, as long as the middle class was doing nicely, there was little about which to complain. That's changed.

There are several reasons for why this has changed with the effect being prosperity transforming into crisis.

First of all, finance capital is unproductive. Today's apologists for the status quo may call themselves "economic fundamentalists," but denoting themselves as such rings hollow as long as they support the primacy of finance capital. Adam Smith, who is the standard of real economic fundamentalism, would tell these morons that money is not wealth. It is nothing more than a convenient medium of exchange. It's funny how the economic gurus touted Adam Smith in the eighties and have forgotten all about him thirty years later. Money is worthless if there is nothing to buy with it.

Wealth is goods and services. Goods are manufactured, mined or grown, not printed on government presses. A society (for the benefit of followers of Ayn Rand, society is a real thing) gets richer when it produces more goods and services, not when it simply produces more money. If the government or the central bank prints more money without a corresponding rise in productivity, nobody gets richer; but, prices will rise accordingly. This means that all of this extra money that the Fed is creating out of thin air and giving interest-free to the banks in order to cover their debts is doing more harm than good. We accuse the bank of sitting on it; the best thing for them to do would be to burn it. When it gets into circulation, it will cause inflation the likes of which hasn't been seen since the days of the Weimar Republic.

Sooner or later later, this structure will collapse. The floor will fall out from underneath the upper classes and -- it always works out this way -- the ceiling will fall on top of the rest of us who reside on the lower stories of the structure. After that, the only way to keep the upper classes on top is a police state. This is simply history repeating itself. The prosperity of the 1920s, which was built on funny money gimmicks, gave way to the Great Depression of the thirties, characterized by police states in Germany, Italy, the Soviet Union and Japan, and finally by World War II and the Cold War.

Does anybody want to live through the twentieth century again? I don't.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:50 PM

97. shortly after the election, when Obama chose Rahm Emanuel to be his chief of staff...

it was clear that we had given control to the Democrats who would like to be Republicans but find the company of racists and religious fundamentalists distasteful.

the path forward became a lot murkier than just ''vote for the better guys.''

Voting for the lesser of two evils has become deciding whether you want the serial killer who gives you novocaine before he dismembers you and the one who doesn't.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:51 PM

98. Well,

"BOTH Political Parties... are at fault."

...one political party is trying to beat down the poor and create an impenetrable and permanent wealthy class that will prey upon the less fortunate (and that's not hyperbole). Until people come to grips with that and deal with that mentality, then nothing will change. There are false equivalencies getting in the way of people seeing the Republicans for the demagogues they are.

Bernie Sanders: Despair is not an option!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/100216545

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Response to ProSense (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:03 PM

102. I'd be willing to say the 'Representatives' of both political parties are at fault.

The Repugs for basically being heartless brainwashing sociopaths creating a legion of soon to be slaves, and the Dems for being spineless turncoats and not blitzing the media with sensible, coherent ideas that rebut the Repigs looping BS talking points.

But the actual "Party"...not so much.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:25 PM

134. "one political party is trying to beat down the poor and create and

 

permanent wealthy class",

and the other one goes along for the ride while pretending otherwise. Unless and until the Democratic Party is liberated from the clutches of the oligarchy we will continue down the road we are headed on.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:53 PM

100. yes

I do not remember feeling this uncomfortable about the future even in the Nixon era.This is something new and urgent.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:59 PM

101. I think this everyday

as I work in my teabagger laden financial services job, in my right wing state, with seemingly all but a small percentage of my Facebook friends not being "Republican" or "Conservative" and lock step meme Parrots (not saying they actually know what they are talking about, it's just easier for them to be right wing pigs than to actually think, research, and use their heart to guide them...as their Religions are obviously failing them at).

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:29 PM

105. Not at all.

Everyone gets nervous during an economic downturn.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:30 PM

106. Forty years doesn't seem to be enough.

I'm getting more drawn to enjoying the little things I can do and control and saying to hell with politics, elections, activism. We hit a peak as a progressive society some time ago and have been on a downhill run since. When you own party and the fanatics in it seem to take more delight in the kinds of things that reagan stood for, it is time to go to the workshop and make something.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:53 PM

109. Since when is the Party of Elizabeth Warren as at fault as the Party of Michele Bachmann? (nt)

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Response to UrbScotty (Reply #109)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:54 PM

110. Or at least, can anyone prove the fault of the Party of Elizabeth Warren?

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Response to UrbScotty (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:01 AM

143. This is the problem of the party fanatic.

You conflate the virtues of one candidate with the actions of the party. They are not the same.

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Response to UrbScotty (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:43 AM

148. The Party of elizabeth Warren is also the party of Max Baucus and Rahm Emanuel

 

and Arne Duncan and Eric Holder and John Corzine. And no one said they're equally at fault.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:57 PM

111. its time for some of the old ways

tar and feathered and run out of town on a rail comes to mind , these fookers in d.c. don't have a ear to the peoples will , there on the wrong road , and the only way to get em back on our road again is to get rid of all of them and start over with fresh minds

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:58 PM

120. Its called living in a fascist state.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:15 PM

122. I'm waiting for my retirement fund to be stolen and my house taken away. Too many evildoers at the

helm now.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:25 PM

123. We are in a repeat of the Long Depression, which led up to recovery in the late 1890s and WW I

 

Read history from the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 onwards. It was a time when the previously dominant Great Britain and Austria Hungary slide into economic troubles, and their fortunes declined due to competition, huge military expenditures, and increasingly sclerotic political institutions. There was huge inequality in London and Vienna, ranging from the hovels in the slums to the great houses of the nobility and bourgeosie.

It all led to WW I and the period from 1914 to about 1949 and the end of the Chinese revolution, during which about 200 million soldiers and civilians died from war, revolution, purges, disease (Spanish flu epidemic), and starvation (e.g. in India).

I'd expect the next episode to start in about 2030. And probably multiple billions of casualties during the subsequent decades.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:34 PM

125. I think things are getting better because people are standing up

This slow deteriation of everything has been going on for decades. Now people are waking up and taking to the streets all over the world. I'm very hopeful for the future.

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Response to TNLib (Reply #125)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 07:26 PM

168. Best remedy for malaise, anxiety and hopelessness: Get out and do something! nt

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:05 PM

129. yes we do

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:15 PM

131. Sure do. I have been feeling the nausea and foreboding for 30 fucking years

When I was laid off from my job for a total of almost 6 years during the 1980's want to know what a lot of my fellow Americans did to stand up for me? They went out and voted for Reagan and bought imported and non-union made cars.

And it wasn't only people in political parties doing this either. Seen a lot of independents driving them too. They stick out like sore thumbs.

Don

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:20 PM

133. It is just a phase you go through in life. I started feeling that way around 1966-67

 

and I am pretty sure I will grow out of it any decade now.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:37 PM

137. Yes, but we have to keep LIVING, thinking, acting...

WE CANNOT GIVE UP!

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:40 PM

140. I think this has been coming for awhile but no

I don't think both political parties are "equally" to blame. From my view - the republicans have become the party of obstruction. Only among the most naive and indoctrinated do they (the republicans) even claim to support "ordinary people".

We have allowed our freedoms to die. If we don't wake up soon we will essentially all be surfs of the ultra-rich lordships again. Mostly this is already true.

And I have to say that I am not optimistic the American people will notice. They are more concerned with the latest sex scandal or who will be the next "American Idol" - it is sad to watch and yes - it makes me feel sick.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:21 PM

142. Yes.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:18 AM

144. I look forward to the future with much trepidation and forbidding thoughts. I just do not

think things are going well at all. There is way too much dissension, way too much craziness and way too much greed and money involved in the political system.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:50 AM

150. Yup, it is why I packed up my family and possessions and fled.

The signals that the USA is falling into a kind of 3rd world status-like nation with dwindling Constitutional rights and increasingly heavy-handed police oppression are clear. You would have to be willfully blind to miss them -in complete denial. The signs are there.

I wanted to leave after Bush was elected, but didn't. I SWORE I would leave after he was reelected, but didn't. I vowed I would leave if McCain was elected.

But with my support and people like me, Obama was elected... THEN, after all hopes were dashed, I really did leave. For good.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #150)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:12 PM

153. Most Americans, I think, are in denial. That, is one root cause as to why these

problems persist, and then we have politicians that tell them what they want to hear, and the wealthy do just fine.

All in all, it's a really bad set of combinations. And layered on this is the growing ignorance in this country. It's appalling. I have no idea where it's going to end, but my gut feeling tells me worse than better.

IMO you made a very wise decision to move your family and possessions.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #150)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:24 PM

154. Bonobo, if you have not yet seen this, Census data: Half of U.S. poor or low income

" (AP) WASHINGTON - Squeezed by rising living costs, a record number of Americans — nearly 1 in 2 — have fallen into poverty or are scraping by on earnings that classify them as low income.

The latest census data depict a middle class that's shrinking as unemployment stays high and the government's safety net frays. The new numbers follow years of stagnating wages for the middle class that have hurt millions of workers and families."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57343397/census-data-half-of-u.s-poor-or-low-income/

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #154)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:11 PM

158. I saw that. Shocking but not surprising.

And like a 3rd world country, the currency is being devalued to the point where it will become difficult to travel outside of the country.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #154)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:51 PM

161. A sign of the times - Not only did my

Husband lose his job when he got sick way back in 2005, right now, the entire department that he worked for is gone. The state of California has to make disastrous cutbacks to social programs. And yesterday, another round of cuts, worth One Billion Dollars, has been bled out of the state, once again. Teachers and students, the headlines screamed, will be affected the most.

His old job, which had required him to have a Master's degree - it involved helping poor people find work.

Well, since I guess there aren't any jobs, having that particular department survive would be a fool's mission.

We are doing okay only because we have our own business, and we have Chinese customers who support it. I still find the experience that we are surviving in part because of Chinese people living in China to be surreal.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #161)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:38 PM

165. It is, everything seems surreal anymore. Sometimes I feel like we're living in a

Twilight Zone episode, but it doesn't seem to have an ending! What's going on in CA is bizarre, CA was always on the leading edge.

I used to work in Silicon Valley at one time. First the company started having endless cutbacks and now it's gone.

I know so many people with several degrees that can't find work or are working jobs totally unrelated to their degrees and at very very low wages.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:57 AM

151. Yes, yes, and...

... again yes!

It's just so depressing to see what's happening in this country
and the rest of the world as well.

Corporate globalism is making some people so rich it beggars
belief, while ruining so many lives and the planet at the same time.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:27 PM

155. Americans are in denial IMO. Census data: Half of U.S. poor or low income

Census data: Half of U.S. poor or low income

" (AP) WASHINGTON - Squeezed by rising living costs, a record number of Americans — nearly 1 in 2 — have fallen into poverty or are scraping by on earnings that classify them as low income.

The latest census data depict a middle class that's shrinking as unemployment stays high and the government's safety net frays. The new numbers follow years of stagnating wages for the middle class that have hurt millions of workers and families.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57343397/census-data-half-of-u.s-poor-or-low-income/

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 01:43 PM

157. Are you asking if we feel the country and the world are going to hell in a handbasket?

If that is the question, speaking for myself, I say yes. As long as we keep the greedy bastards who are in power now, in power, it will continue to get worse. We need a major shakeup to get the people represented again. Going with the status quo is only going to get us more of the greed and destruction. They are literally destroying the planet and every life on it through greed and we are empowering them to do so...because we won't buck the status quo and elect someone who is not ultra greedy for a change.

We are fucked. It's all going to hell in a hand-basket. I fully believe that. Part of me just doesn't give a shit any more and part of me wants to rail against the system. All efforts are futile though, at this point. The power structure is so fully entrenched that we would have to literally drag the current power hungry leaders out kicking and screaming and start over.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:21 PM

159. Nauseous? No. What I'm feeling is bordering on flat-out RAGE.

 

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Response to WillyT (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #160)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:59 PM

162. How Would You Know... You Just Got Here...

 



And welcome to DU - BTW...


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Response to WillyT (Reply #162)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 10:06 PM

163. Thanks for the welcome!

 

Here's the source of my insight, since you're curious.

Your silly post has a whole big bunch of 'recs'. So do your other posts hovering near the top of the page tonight, which all share the same despair porn vibe.

I usually don't like to give away the secrets of my message board legerdemain, but since you asked so nicely, I felt I had to. Just this once, mind you.

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Response to Dewey Finn (Reply #163)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:00 PM

164. So... Tell Me About Your Avatar...

 

Seems like an homage to the 1960's and all that entails.


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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 08:25 PM

172. Yes

I have the feeling that the MSM is setting up the narritive that the country is evenly divided,it is not as shown by OWS so that the door is open for the cons to steal another election.
It does make me physically nauseous.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sat Dec 17, 2011, 06:21 PM

175. people ARE standing up - OWS, Minnesota and such

 

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