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Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:40 PM

Self pardon Questions again. IF Rump self pardons, in last hours of his presidency

Will it be OVERTURNED? WHO would lead on this? (I'm sure SOMEBODY will NOT let this stand as law of the land)

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Reply Self pardon Questions again. IF Rump self pardons, in last hours of his presidency (Original post)
bluestarone Nov 2020 OP
Name removed Nov 2020 #1
Gothmog Nov 2020 #2
elleng Nov 2020 #5
csziggy Nov 2020 #10
elleng Nov 2020 #14
csziggy Nov 2020 #17
LastLiberal in PalmSprings Nov 2020 #18
elleng Nov 2020 #50
lastlib Nov 2020 #54
bluestarone Nov 2020 #6
Name removed Nov 2020 #29
StarfishSaver Nov 2020 #49
bluestarone Nov 2020 #52
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #3
bluestarone Nov 2020 #9
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #26
bluestarone Nov 2020 #37
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #39
bluestarone Nov 2020 #40
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #42
bluestarone Nov 2020 #43
LastLiberal in PalmSprings Nov 2020 #19
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #22
sarisataka Nov 2020 #23
StarfishSaver Nov 2020 #48
exboyfil Nov 2020 #4
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #24
exboyfil Nov 2020 #27
matt819 Nov 2020 #7
Statistical Nov 2020 #8
bluestarone Nov 2020 #13
onenote Nov 2020 #36
bluestarone Nov 2020 #38
onenote Nov 2020 #47
bluestarone Nov 2020 #53
essme Nov 2020 #11
kimbutgar Nov 2020 #12
bluestarone Nov 2020 #15
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #28
bluestarone Nov 2020 #16
beachbumbob Nov 2020 #20
bluestarone Nov 2020 #21
MineralMan Nov 2020 #25
exboyfil Nov 2020 #30
OnDoutside Nov 2020 #32
MineralMan Nov 2020 #35
OnDoutside Nov 2020 #31
exboyfil Nov 2020 #33
OnDoutside Nov 2020 #45
beachbumbob Nov 2020 #34
OnDoutside Nov 2020 #44
marie999 Nov 2020 #41
Takket Nov 2020 #46
Mr. Ected Nov 2020 #51

Response to bluestarone (Original post)


Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:47 PM

2. No, Trump can't pardon himself. The Constitution tells us so. Add to list

From Prof. Tribe and others https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-trump-cant-pardon-himself-the-constitution-tells-us-so/2017/07/21/f3445d74-6e49-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html?utm_term=.a066d8b411f4

Can a president pardon himself? Four days before Richard Nixon resigned, his own Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel opined no, citing “the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case.” We agree.

The Justice Department was right that guidance could be found in the enduring principles that no one can be both the judge and the defendant in the same matter, and that no one is above the law.

The Constitution specifically bars the president from using the pardon power to prevent his own impeachment and removal. It adds that any official removed through impeachment remains fully subject to criminal prosecution. That provision would make no sense if the president could pardon himself.

The pardon provision of the Constitution is there to enable the president to act essentially in the role of a judge of another person’s criminal case, and to intervene on behalf of the defendant when the president determines that would be equitable. For example, the president might believe the courts made the wrong decision about someone’s guilt or about sentencing; President Barack Obama felt this way about excessive sentences for low-level drug offenses. Or the president might be impressed by the defendant’s subsequent conduct and, using powers far exceeding those of a parole board, might issue a pardon or commutation of sentence.....

President Trump thinks he can do a lot of things just because he is president. He says that the president can act as if he has no conflicts of interest. He says that he can fire the FBI director for any reason he wants (and he admitted to the most outrageous of reasons in interviews and in discussion with the Russian ambassador). In one sense, Trump is right — he can do all of these things, although there will be legal repercussions if he does. Using official powers for corrupt purposes — such as impeding or obstructing an investigation — can constitute a crime.

But there is one thing we know that Trump cannot do — without being a first in all of human history. He cannot pardon himself.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:50 PM

5. The constitution only goes THIS far:

'The Constitution specifically bars the president from using the pardon power to prevent his own impeachment and removal. It adds that any official removed through impeachment remains fully subject to criminal prosecution. That provision would make no sense if the president could pardon himself.'

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Response to elleng (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:55 PM

10. The Constitution does not say that a sitting president cannot be indicted

But Justice Department guidelines have prevented it ever since Nixon. Until someone is willing to take either case (self pardons or indictment) to the Supreme Court the current guidelines will stand.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:58 PM

14. It's merely a DoJ guideline,

only has the force 'we' chose to give it; it is not law.

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Response to elleng (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:02 PM

17. Yes, but the "sitting president cannot be indicted" part has not been challeged - ever

So it holds the weight of law - until it is tested. If no one ever has the guts to test it, it might as well be law. And Republican presidents since Nixon have pushed the limits of tolerance on this point far too many times.

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Response to elleng (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:06 PM

18. It's only a line in a memo about indicting Spiro Agnew.

It's never been codified or turned into a regulation. Everyone just accepts it without question.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 05:11 PM

50. Right.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 05:34 PM

54. And the (next) Attorney General could revoke it with the stroke of a pen.

And I hope she does!

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:51 PM

6. The Question DOES need to be addressed by the SC! ( i feel)

I know it would IF it were a Democrat were doing it!

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #2)


Response to Gothmog (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:44 PM

49. AND let's remember

 

Any Supreme Court ruling permitting a president to self-pardon could likely be extended to the states, thereby allowing governors to pardon themselves.

Imagine what a complete mess that would be!?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #49)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 05:27 PM

52. NEVER even gave this a thought! TY

WOW !

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:50 PM

3. It's not been determined that he can't pardon himself, and the way to test whether he can

would be for a US Attorney to try to indict him for a federal crime after he has issued his self-pardon. His defense would be that he can't be prosecuted because of the pardon, and the question would eventually make its way to the Supreme Court. Most legal scholars seem to think he can't do it. But even if the court says he can, he can't pardon himself for state crimes, and the Manhattan D.A. is already investigating tax and other crimes.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:55 PM

9. Agree BUT

IF not addressed, would that set precedence? ( for ALL future presidents) OR could the SC decide to wait for a Dem. president? THEN rule against them? (him or her) What do you think would happen? I wonder if Kamala would ask the S Court for a decision?

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:40 PM

26. It doesn't work that way. The court has to have a case before it -

you can't just ask them for a decision where there's no disputed case for them to review. If Trump pardons himself and he's indicted anyhow, he'd use the pardon as a defense, and this would be an actual case that could make its way up to the Supreme Court. That decision would set the precedent for future pardons. But unless that happens the issue will remain undecided.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:24 PM

37. ok Gotcha! TY

I have to ask this though. IF Rump self pardons like you mentioned,(use the pardon as defense) WHO would (should) take the case to the SC? Would THIS have to go through the whole court system? lower courts all the way to the SC? TY again

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:38 PM

39. Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: A likely scenario would be that Trump pardons himself, but a federal prosecutor, having evidence that one or more federal crimes have been committed, has a grand jury convened anyhow. The evidence is presented to the grand jury, which returns an indictment. Trump petitions to quash the indictment on the ground that he's been pardoned; a federal district court decides whether to grant the petition and that decision is appealed to the appropriate circuit court of appeals; then, however it is decided at that point, the losing party (either Trump or the government, by the US Attorney's office) petitions the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari, which almost certainly would be granted. This process will take months. In the meantime, the Manhattan D.A. is licking his chops because no matter how the federal case is decided, Trump can't pardon himself for state crimes, of which he has doubtless committed many in New York.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:44 PM

40. TY very much. Understanding better here. Can i ask of youtwo more questions? (if Rump does not do it

If we get both houses, can a law be passed that CLEARLY states President CANNOT self pardon? Or is this a constitutional process?

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:48 PM

42. Since the power to pardon is in the Constitution and is not limited there,

any law passed by Congress prohibiting self-pardons would likely be challenged. Whether the challenge would be successful probably depends on whether the constitutional originalists on the court think that the absence of a restriction in the wording means there are no restrictions.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:51 PM

43. Again TY

You've helped me understand the process better!! HOPE we do not have to go there with Rump self pardoning! Have a good day!!

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:08 PM

19. Isn't part of accepting a pardon admitting to the crime for which the person has been pardoned?

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:34 PM

22. Not really.

In Burdick v. United States (1915) the Supreme Court wrote that a pardon “carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it.” Since then it's been assumed that the acceptance of a pardon is the equivalent of a guilty plea, or at least an admission that the pardoned crime was committed. However, Burdick was about a different issue - the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just dicta (a comment without legal affect). The court meant that, as a practical matter, a person might not want to accept a pardon because it might make him look guilty. In some cases, pardons have been given to exonerate people who were not guilty. They are not a legal declaration of guilt.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:35 PM

23. No, that is a common myth

Similar to when a person takes the Fifth Amendment, the public assumes the testimony would have been incriminating. That is not necessarily the case. Accepting a pardon also seems to imply there was a crime.

In both cases they are legally neutral. There is no admission or legal implications of guilt.

The court of public opinion however may read into either case whatever they wish.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:42 PM

48. You've provided great explanations in this thread. Thanks!

 

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:50 PM

4. The SC needs to go on record supporting or denying self pardons

In hindsight Carter's AG should have challenged the Constitutionality of Ford's generic pardon to Nixon. At a minimum only specified crimes already indicted or specific actions should be pardoned. Also some sort of allocution should come from the party receiving the pardon.

Since this is how the GOP rolls. In the future there is no walkaway from corruption. It has just emboldened the GOP after every one (torpedoing the Paris Peace Conference, Watergate, torpedoing Iran Hostage crisis, Iran Contra, and lying about WMD in Iraq).

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:36 PM

24. They don't do that. The Supreme Court doesn't "go on record" about an issue

unless they have a case before them. The only way they could decide whether a president can pardon himself is if the president were indicted for a crime and used his-self pardon as a defense.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:41 PM

27. I met to imply that the AG's US Attorney or a Special Prosecutor

would file charges. In that way the SC would go on record as the pardon appeal by either party finally makes its way to them.

I should have been clearer in my response. That is why I would have wanted Carter's DOJ to also challenge Ford's pardon of Nixon.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:54 PM

7. So be it

For trump, there's always NYC and NYS, to say nothing of other local and state investigations.

And unless he pardons "everyone," there's always the vile spawn, their spouses, and all the hangers-on.

One by one by one.


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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:54 PM

8. It is untested so it would end up before SCOTUS however I do think SCOTUS will find it

Unconstitutional.

Keep in mind if Presidents can self pardon then it applies to all future Presidents include Democratic ones. It means the President is 100% above the law federally. He can't be prosecuted until he leaves office and he can self pardon himself before he does.

The end state would be all Presidents beyond the rule of law and as a matter of course self pardoning before leaving office to grant themselves unlimited immunity. The office of the Presidency would be subject to no (federal) rule of law.

Not even the rightwingers want to see that. It would be the judiciary massively reducing the power of the judiciary branch and forever elevating the power of the executive branch. The judiciary branch to include SCOTUS. SCOTUS voting to make SCOTUS impotent against the power of the now even more powerful Presidency.

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Response to Statistical (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:57 PM

13. RIGHT! and

I believe the SC, ALREADY ruled NO ONE is above the law.

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:22 PM

36. Nope

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Response to onenote (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:29 PM

38. I thought they stated no one is above the law pertaining to his taxes (state of course)

Maybe not the same?

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:34 PM

47. You're thinking of the Trump v. Vance opinion

Which dealt with the issue of whether a president has "absolute immunity" from legal process. Which isn't the same question as whether a president can self-pardon. Moreover, the majority opinion in that case didn't recite the maxim that "no man is above the law" -- it was Kavanaugh, in a concurring opinion, that quoted that language.

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Response to onenote (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 05:30 PM

53. You're right, like usual!

TY! That's why we have great minds here!!

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:56 PM

11. OH WHO CARES?

I don't care if he pardons himself, and order a fucking lifetime supply of Hershey's Kisses.

Just get the fuck out, and take your goddamned trashy assed family with you. Go sit in fucking Palm Beach and play bridge, or golf or whatever it is you want to do.

Just get out.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 01:56 PM

12. If he did everything lawfully and was such a law abiding president why did he self pardon himself

I can’t wait to use this logic on a right winger. I made my husbands nephews head explore once by asking him questions that tricked and confused him, the kid never messed with me again.

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Response to kimbutgar (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:00 PM

15. An interesting part is

IF he SELF pardons and excepts it, HE admits guilt. That's the way i see it.

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:41 PM

28. Not so. See #22.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:02 PM

16. I gotta say her and now that i really expect him to test it and

SELF PARDON!!! That's who he is!!

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:15 PM

20. this would go to Supreme Court and the chance of it being ruled invalid is enough that

 

if it is, then trump will be at the mercy of the DOJ. I hope he chances is it. The rules of pardons and such is not to pardon ONESELF, otherwise Governors would have been doing it

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:22 PM

21. THIS is another GOOD thought

WILL he take that chance? If the SC were to rule AGAINST him he would, like you say be able to be CHARGED for federal crimes!

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:37 PM

25. I'm sure he won't take that chance, when all he has to do is resign

and let Pence pardon him, something that could not be questioned.

He can do that as late as the day before Biden's inauguration, since Pence would be sworn in immediately upon Trump's resignation and could issue a blanket pardon for Trump forthwith.

But Trump is more clever than that. If he chooses to resign, he'll do so somewhat earlier, to allow him to get his belongings moved out before the new President moves in.

Resignation and a pardon from Pence is the only safe route for Trump to take. He will do what is safest for himself, no doubt.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:46 PM

30. I think you are right

but what pressure will he put on Pence? I see the scene from the Godfather where Trump gives Pence an offer he can't refuse. Also what about pardons in both directions? Trump general pardon for Pence. Then Pence general pardon for Trump. Did the Founders have that in mind?

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:51 PM

32. Pence will have gotten his reward in being the 46th President, and he's not going to double

cross Trump....can you imagine the Trumpers pursuing Pence for the rest of his life ?

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:22 PM

35. No Pressure Needed.

Mike Pence has been a reliable toady from the beginning. He would never have been VP without Trump. If Trump resigns, he will be the 46th US President and be entered into the history books as such. He could never be elected as President, so that's his one chance for that title.

I doubt that Pence needs a pardon, really. He has almost no authority, and so has not done anything that would get him prosecuted, really. So, his pardon of Trump is in the bag already. It may even have been written already, as has Trump's most likely.

For me, the question is only when this will happen. I suspect it will happen a week or so before Biden's inauguration. That would give Trump time to get out and moved back to Merde-a-Gonzo, where he can safely hide until he figures out how to deal with his state charged or to move out of the USA.

The Founders? No, I'm sure they never considered such a thing. They believed that US Presidents would be pretty much honorable men, and that the threat of impeachment and removal would be enough to keep them so. They were wrong. They would not recognize the US Government as it has come to be, I think.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 02:48 PM

31. Whether a Self-pardon is possible, or President Pence pardons him, the question I posed on Friday

was why WOULDN'T he take a pardon ? There's every likelihood that he committed crimes that we don't even know about yet, at the Federal level, so why wouldn't he inoculate himself from those ? The State charges are a different matter but at least he wouldn't be fighting on two fronts.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:01 PM

33. The only argument against it is to keep his viability for 2024

I think the Marc Rich pardon did damage to Hillary Clinton. It doesn't seem that it rolls that way with the Republicans though. When they get pardons, they are heroes.

He and his spawn and his closest allies all will get general pardons like Ford's pardon to Nixon. I think he also gets his pardon as well. There is no downside. It is currency that goes away on January 20th (I hope).

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:16 PM

45. We do know he only looks to win the moment, so I don't think it matters,

in fact Republicans think Nixon was harshly treated ! I agree they will be viewed as heroes.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:15 PM

34. Scenario, Trump has Federal pardon, which doesn't actually stop investigation, it

 

Invalidates an indictment, charges going forward. Do presidential pardons have some requirements on tge pardon is based on acknowledging guilt? So DOJ investigates, issues an indictment, the pardon is used, now trump has admitted to the guilt....this was never tested with Nixon

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:13 PM

44. My suspicion is that Biden would be happier if trump takes the pardon.

If that happens, I'd be shocked if Democrats followed that up with an investigation, especially with a 6 3 conservative Supreme court. Of course if McConnell decides to block any Democratic bill, then Democrats will have plenty of time over the next two years to go after Trump and Republicans.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 03:45 PM

41. Let him pardon himself.

Would you like him in a federal prison or Rikers Island and then Sing Sing?

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 04:33 PM

46. no he can't because self pardon does not pass any logic test...

if this somehow landed at SCOTUS they are going to test this theory with hypothetical to test the principle.

that's going to look like....
a SCOTUS justice is going to ask "so let's say the president takes a sniper rifle and goes up the roof, and kills an American citizen. the police rush in and he announces he is pardoning himself, and they back off. he reloads, and executes one of the officers that just tried to arrest him. again they move in and again he announces he is pardoning himself. This is a scenario that is possible if the president can pardon himself, and there is no possible interpretation of the constitution in which this was an intended reality of the use of the pardon power."

and it dies right there.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2020, 05:21 PM

51. If election to the presidency is a Get Out of Jail Free card for any future candidate

Given the propensity of the opposition towards corruption, graft, lies and crimes, the founders really, really fucked up by not circumscribing pardon powers.

OTOH, the Supreme Court should, under ordinary conditions and applying proper precedents, deem that no President is above the law, no President should be able to skirt prosecution for crimes committed prior to entry in office, even during his or her tenure, and no President should be able to be pardoned or pardon oneself for crimes committed while in office.

HOW HARD IS THAT?

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