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Thu Nov 19, 2020, 01:33 AM

About the word..."socialsim" ? The government takes over ..what?

...A very long time ago, you had to get your own water...So now the government provides clean drinkable water................................................................................................................
...A very long time ago, if you wanted to read a book, then you had to buy one...now...libraries.
...A very long time ago, if you wanted..protection...You had to always ..provide your own.
..................now city police departments............
...A very long time ago, if you wanted to see a doctor, Well that is too bad...now..emergency rooms
...A very long time ago, if you wanted to learn to read, you had get a tutor. Now, public schools K-12
...A very long time ago, if you wanted to go to swim?? ...now public beaches..
...A very long time ago, if you wanted advanced education? Now city colleges and many open to all colleges.
...A very long time ago, if you wanted to go somewhere....Now public transportation..

Do you get the picture?...A long time ago, all above was considered your responsibility.........
..................Now the government provides much of above, in some places ..all of above....

...One time the above was..."socialism"....now it is government's responsibility.

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Reply About the word..."socialsim" ? The government takes over ..what? (Original post)
Stuart G Nov 2020 OP
captain queeg Nov 2020 #1
kurtcagle Nov 2020 #2
NameAlreadyTaken Nov 2020 #3
TomSlick Nov 2020 #17
NameAlreadyTaken Nov 2020 #19
TomSlick Nov 2020 #20
unblock Nov 2020 #4
theaocp Nov 2020 #10
TigressDem Nov 2020 #5
brush Nov 2020 #6
JI7 Nov 2020 #7
DAngelo136 Nov 2020 #8
ProfessorGAC Nov 2020 #11
Wounded Bear Nov 2020 #16
Shermann Nov 2020 #9
TEB Nov 2020 #12
Klaralven Nov 2020 #13
brooklynite Nov 2020 #14
Stuart G Nov 2020 #15
My Pet Orangutan Nov 2020 #18

Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 01:44 AM

1. There are bigger ones; roads, electricity, flood control.

Not many in America have had to live thru a major flood. Itís one of the most deadly historical catastrophe. Largely due to the aftermath. When things like fresh water and sanitation were limited, a couple other things that government provides. The huge advanced in America were largely due to public works. That and not getting the shit bombed out of us during WWII.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 01:55 AM

2. It doesn't matter

The masses have been brainwashed. Modern capitalism is a secular religion, but like most successful religions, as it becomes more powerful it tends to crowd out competing belief systems, especially those that insist that collective action is a necessary part of any society. Conservatives did not fear the Soviets because they had the potential to compete against the US in many critical markets - they feared Soviet Socialism because it rejected most of the tenets of capitalism. When the Soviet system "collapsed", leaving in its wake mob bosses, the conservatives were overjoyed, because the Russians were marginally more willing to let American financial interests into their economy. Never mind that Putin was a former communist and currently rules Russia in a style Kruschev would have recognized, Americans believed that there were vast new markets to colonize there.

Capitalism is an economic system is generally pretty workable as long as you constrain its excesses. Capitalism as a religious system is psychopathic.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 02:01 AM

3. Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production

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Response to NameAlreadyTaken (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 10:30 PM

17. Careful. I have made this point in the past and was flamed.

I was assured that my education was seriously deficient.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 10:53 PM

19. Wow

That was the exact definition of socialism as I was taught in high school. Oh well. Thank you

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Response to NameAlreadyTaken (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 11:24 PM

20. That is the definition I was taught as an undergraduate political science major.

I was assured that had I not attended a small state university (small school in a small state), my education would not be so woefully deficient.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 02:01 AM

4. "Socialism", to republicans, is just a meaningless political insult

It's any policy they don't support. It's all negative emotional content and zero fact content.

To the extent it has any actual meaning to them, it means any means by which black people might get any kind of help whatsoever.

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Response to unblock (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 08:15 AM

10. We have a winner. nt

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 02:37 AM

5. The people using it as a boogeyman word are conflating it with communism and totalatarian rule.



One time the above was..."socialism"....now it is government's responsibility.




Or as some like to call it, civilization.

In a CIVIL Democracy we resolve our differences and work together to build up our society and make it work for US.


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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 02:43 AM

6. Millions have been raised to think it's toxic and if we want to win elections...

we should practice pragmatism and stay as far away from it as we can.

It's not that all the things listed in the OP are bad, it's just too many voters don't do nuance, they do what they're told and they're told it's bad.

End of story.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 02:49 AM

7. People think of Venezuela and Cuba and other countries and how things Suck in those countries

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 03:47 AM

8. Let's get some things straight here....

Socialism is: A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. That does not necessarily mean the state runs everything. What Marx and other Socialist thinkers envisioned was a society where everything is owned in common; a stateless, moneyless and classless society, not state, (Communism) devoid of private property (which is discerned from personal property).

Socialism is the transitory period following the collapse of a capitalist society run by the bourgeoisie to the aforementioned communist society. A socialist society is by nature, democratic. It extends democracy beyond the political sphere into the economic sphere. The ownership of the means of production and distribution would be taken over by the employees themselves. They would decide what to produce, how to produce it, for whom to produce for and what to do with the profits (surplus value), instead of a small group of elites, called a "Board of Directors" or some other such title.

Until that stage is achieved, what you have instead is "state capitalism"; instead of the employees running things, government officials or bureaucrats take the place of the capitalists. Socialists find this objectionable as well. The People's Republic of China, The former Soviet Union are examples of this bastardization of socialism despite their claim to be Socialist states. Cuba would be the closest to exemplify a socialist government. Mondragon, the employee owned cooperative in Spain, would be the example of a socialist enterprise.

Democratic Socialism is NOT Socialism. Democratic Socialism is a policy regime and political disposition favoring greater regulation, public provision of public goods, and support for labor rights. There's a difference, ideologically between Bernie Sanders and let's say Norman Thomas, for example, even though the aims are broadly similar. The Democratic Socialist can accept capitalism albeit, temporarily. They hope and work toward the eventual elimination of Capitalism through democratic means. This strikes most Socialists as rather naive(No one ever votes themselves out of power). On the other hand, some revolutionary Socialists (Trotskyites, Lennists and other types) can also be seen as irrational rather than "revolutionary" (Depending on what you mean by 'revolution') So, that leads to a lot of political and ideological disagreements and infighting.

While every communist is a socialist, not every socialist is a communist. There are various strains of Socialist ideology ranging from straight up Anarchism to Market Socialism and everything in between. The bottom line is that Socialism can mean different things to different people and societies. It's not a "one size fits all" ideology. What works in Vietnam, may not work at all in the United States. What may work in the United States, may be ill fitting in the Nordic countries.

Most Americans, because of suppression and misinformation don't know much about the ideology or it's history. Here are some links that would go a long way in helping to understand what it is, and what it isn't. You'll find this more useful (and fun at times) than watching the private propaganda outlets that masquerade as news channels:

Prof. Richard Wolff explains what Socialism is:

Non Compete channel explains capitalism with a puppet show: &t=49s

Robert Tressel's "The Great Money Trick" from "Ragged Trousered Philanthropists":

"Marx on Communism" from "Marx in Soho" by Howard Zinn:


"Mouseland: A Political Fable" by Tommy Douglas:

Don't take my word for anything. Investigate, read and reason for yourself. You may not agree with the ideas but at the least you'll be far more educated on the subject than most Americans. Even then, a benefit.

Peace, comrades.





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Response to DAngelo136 (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 08:20 AM

11. Great Post!

I didn't peruse all the links, but the part you wrote I'd dead on!
If I could rec a post, I'd do so for this one.

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Response to DAngelo136 (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 11:46 AM

16. Now, fit that on a bumper sticker...

our problem is that too many people won't think much beyond three word slogans.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 07:10 AM

9. It's a label collectively applied to government programs the right doesn't like

Like many right-wing labels, it serves to compartmentalize complex, abstract concepts into a single simple, tangible form to be barked at. These labels always misrepresent some or all of the concepts to a varying degree, in this case quite a bit. Armed with these labels, propagandists can then proceed with the dishonest debate tactics.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 08:25 AM

12. Fantastic post

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 08:26 AM

13. Most of that is only partly true

- Lots of people have their own wells, and locally the water service is provided by a private company water utility
- Libraries provide some books, but if it is a specialized book to learn from, you probably have to buy it
- The police will arrive in time to draw the chalk outline; they don't "protect" no matter what their slogan says.
- Going to an emergency room for a non-emergency will cost you a lot of money
- If you want your child educated well, in most areas you have to do a lot of it yourself
- Most of the beaches are privately owned around here
- City colleges and open to all are there to try to fix what K-12 didn't do
- Check out some routes on Google maps. Public transportation will get you there very slowly via places you never wanted to go.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 09:16 AM

14. None of those were socialism...

...why do people feel the need to "reform" the definition of this term?

Consider what the continuing failure to convince people HERE implies about the ability to convince actual voters in the real world.....

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 11:34 AM

15. When I learned about.."socialism"...the idea is that the government does., or takes

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2020, 12:22 PM - Edit history (2)

over what private industry can't do or has tried to do but failed. For example a very simple idea the idea of taking your horse and buggy on a short road trip to say "downtown"..

Now that was the way people moved around 120 years ago. But after some changes in time...(like a few years), people drove cars to & from downtown....The cars were very expensive in those days, so instead of owning a car, people rode from place to place in a private "bus" which an entrepreneur bought to try to make some money driving people from place to place for a small charge. The entrepreneur was sure that, would make him very rich, but after some years, people saved up enough to buy cars,
and most people owned one, so the entrepreneur went broke.

..So as the word got out that the "Bus Company" was about to fail and stop moving people around the town, a large number of people..(who thought that was a good idea for the company to do) petitioned the city governmentso that the city of ..."Large City U.S.A."...would in fact own the bus company and provide that service to everyone to keep the service going.

So, "Large City U.S.A." buys the company, or sets up its own company to keep the service going for the ..."good of the people".. Therefore, the original idea was a "private service" but the government now operates the service and did what the private company used to do. The idea that "Large City U.S.A." would take over and do the service, instead of private industry which cannot do the service is what I learned as."Socialism"

....Another example of so called "Socialism" is the following: As one gets older, sometimes that person can no longer ..."work"...And, sometimes there is an event that causes people to lose lots of jobs..So work is not available, and people starve and the world turns around upside down..So the government takes over the job of providing help in the form of "food insurance" that provides food to people who cannot afford it due to old age, or being out of work, or whatever.

...That the government would provide food to people who were out of work, or fired, or whatever,
was/is .."Socialism."

..Now, let's say that the government does not provide food, but money to buy food,
at a time where a person used to earn that money... (for whatever reason) and he or she is starving, no place to live,.. etc,...well that provision of food or money to buy that food...is a form of........."SOCIALISM''.........

...We can argue about this for a while, but that is my view, and whether a person agrees or not,
I believe we already have in many aspects a "Socialistic Society"...It ain't so bad is it?.

.So more arguments about the definition of .."SOCIALISM" are now in order......NEXT.....!!!!!....
WHO IS GOING TO BE NEXT????

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Nov 19, 2020, 10:33 PM

18. 'Socialism' is an albatross.

A thousand OPs won't anything. Dump it.

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