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Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:30 PM

What Liberals Don't Understand About Pro-Trump Latinos

They all have one very important thing in common.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/trump-latinos-biden-2020/616901/



Abraham Enriquez speaks with the clarity of a levelheaded TV anchor. The 25-year-old Latino from Lubbock, Texas, was the first in his family to be born in the United States, after his grandparents immigrated from Mexico in the 1980s and brought his then-2-year-old mother with them. He visits his family across the border at least once a year for service trips with his grandparents’ church. When we talked recently about the state of American politics, I recognized the air of authority I had heard in clips of his eponymous web show and his public speeches rallying Latinos in Texas to vote—for Donald Trump. Enriquez is one of millions of Latinos who will (or already have) cast a ballot for Trump this year. Nearly a third of Latinos routinely vote for Republicans in American elections, and the Trump campaign’s appeals to them show an understanding of their unique worldview, one rooted in deeply held beliefs about individualism, economic opportunity, and traditional social values. Across nationality, class, immigrant experience, and age, Trump-voting Latinos have one thing in common: a different vision from other Latinos of what it means to be American—and they believe their liberal counterparts and the broader public just don’t understand that.

“It all boils down to understanding that you are in charge of your own kind of predicament,” Enriquez told me. “America, we’re really at the crossroads of either self-governance or being dependent on the government—and Hispanics know very well which decision they need to be making.” Liberals may accuse these Latinos of voting against their own interests, given Trump’s mishandling of the pandemic, attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and restrictions on immigration—all issues that affect millions of Latino lives. But many pro-Trump Latinos told me they simply define their interests differently than their more progressive cousins do. They don’t necessarily feel solidarity with Latinos as a whole, and many identify themselves as American first. (Some reject “Latino” or “Latinx” labels as well.) Many are lifelong Republicans not eager to abandon their party, and Trump’s economy-first message and opposition to abortion rights resonate with them. Democrats shouldn’t be surprised if Trump matches or improves on his 2016 showing among Latinos on November 3, or if their votes help him hold battleground states such as Arizona and Florida. Republican Latinos have always existed, and the Trump campaign has dedicated significant resources to winning over more of the Hispanic community this election cycle.





Election-year conversations tend to flatten voters into stereotypes, but there is no one kind of Latino voter: They aren’t all of Mexican or Cuban descent, nor are they all Catholic or connected by a shared immigrant experience—even though these subgroups dominate national attention. Though 60 to 70 percent vote for Democrats, according to the Pew Research Center, Latinos aren’t a reliably partisan voting bloc and need to be persuaded, in culturally competent ways, to vote. Their differences in national identity, immigrant background, experiences with discrimination, and religious beliefs make Latinos just as complicated as any other demographic group, though they aren’t always portrayed that way. Take immigration, an issue commonly identified as the central Latino priority because many Americans assume that all Latinos hold the same pro-immigration view. The first time Enriquez heard Trump speak about politics was during the future president’s campaign-launch speech in 2015, when he said Mexico was “sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime.” Enriquez told me he could forgive the president’s comments. “I know exactly the status of Mexico, and how crime has completely just taken over the beautiful country that is Mexico.

So when President Trump was talking about what Mexico is sending, I immediately knew—I understood [what he meant],” Enriquez said. “Did he word it correctly? No, but he did emphasize that, you know, it wasn’t all Mexicans.” (Enriquez told me that he first learned about Trump when he wrote a paper on The Art of the Deal in ninth grade.) Some pro-Trump Latinos told me they understand why immigrants seek new lives in America, but they want them to come to this country “the right way.” They don’t necessarily identify with the plight of Latin American immigrants today. “You can’t really compare immigration in 2020 or 2016 to immigration like when my grandparents immigrated to America,” Enriquez said. Some support Trump’s border wall, some support limits on immigration generally, but almost all pivoted to the economy when the subject came up, arguing that unregulated immigration could have a negative effect on their own well-being. “We recognize that open borders would not be good for the economy, for our families,” Ray Baca, the founder of the El Paso–based activist group Border Hispanics for Trump, told me. “Illegal immigration hurts employment as far as wages are concerned. And who are the people that get hurt? People at the bottom … and many times that is still the Hispanics.”

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Arrow 102 replies Author Time Post
Reply What Liberals Don't Understand About Pro-Trump Latinos (Original post)
Celerity Oct 29 OP
SlogginThroughIt Oct 29 #1
rockfordfile Oct 29 #4
dflprincess Oct 29 #8
smirkymonkey Oct 29 #15
NRaleighLiberal Oct 29 #2
uponit7771 Oct 29 #11
Walleye Oct 29 #3
TheBlackAdder Oct 30 #87
Caliman73 Oct 30 #97
Walleye Oct 30 #101
Laelth Oct 29 #5
uponit7771 Oct 29 #6
onecaliberal Oct 29 #7
Celerity Oct 29 #12
onecaliberal Oct 29 #18
Celerity Oct 29 #20
onecaliberal Oct 29 #23
Celerity Oct 29 #26
onecaliberal Oct 29 #29
Caliman73 Oct 30 #102
AmericanCanuck Oct 29 #9
dalton99a Oct 29 #51
appalachiablue Oct 30 #62
rusty fender Oct 30 #100
idziak4ever1234 Oct 29 #10
LuvLoogie Oct 29 #13
tavernier Oct 30 #77
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 29 #14
Baked Potato Oct 29 #16
NorthOf270 Oct 29 #17
msongs Oct 29 #19
Celerity Oct 29 #24
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 29 #41
Celerity Oct 29 #44
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 29 #46
Celerity Oct 29 #47
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 29 #48
Celerity Oct 30 #53
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 30 #54
Celerity Oct 30 #55
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 30 #56
Celerity Oct 30 #57
BainsBane Oct 29 #21
Celerity Oct 29 #27
dustyscamp Oct 29 #22
Boogiemack Oct 29 #34
GulfCoast66 Oct 29 #25
ansible Oct 29 #30
GulfCoast66 Oct 29 #35
Klaralven Oct 30 #85
GulfCoast66 Oct 30 #90
Behind the Aegis Oct 30 #69
cwydro Oct 30 #73
Takket Oct 29 #28
BusyBeingBest Oct 29 #31
shrike3 Oct 30 #82
wellst0nev0ter Oct 29 #32
GulfCoast66 Oct 29 #37
radius777 Oct 30 #58
sunonmars Oct 30 #65
GulfCoast66 Oct 30 #79
Klaralven Oct 30 #91
Boogiemack Oct 29 #33
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 29 #36
Celerity Oct 29 #38
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 29 #40
GulfCoast66 Oct 29 #39
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 29 #42
GulfCoast66 Oct 29 #45
Guy Whitey Corngood Oct 29 #50
GulfCoast66 Oct 30 #80
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 30 #94
ecstatic Oct 30 #84
JI7 Oct 29 #43
Awsi Dooger Oct 29 #49
Bigredhunk Oct 30 #52
radius777 Oct 30 #59
Celerity Oct 30 #61
radius777 Oct 30 #64
JonLP24 Oct 30 #66
sunonmars Oct 30 #67
Celerity Oct 30 #68
Lars39 Oct 30 #60
sunonmars Oct 30 #63
Bigredhunk Oct 30 #70
DFW Oct 30 #71
sunonmars Oct 30 #72
Azathoth Oct 30 #74
maxrandb Oct 30 #75
Celerity Oct 30 #76
Sunsky Oct 30 #78
bigtree Oct 30 #81
ecstatic Oct 30 #83
Roisin Ni Fiachra Oct 30 #86
Celerity Oct 30 #88
Beringia Oct 30 #93
Roisin Ni Fiachra Oct 30 #99
BruceWane Oct 30 #89
Beringia Oct 30 #92
trackfan Oct 30 #95
UTUSN Oct 30 #96
Yeehah Oct 30 #98

Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:32 PM

1. I only need to know they support an evil man

Aside from that... Fuck them. They need to understand that he is an evil man that would just as soon die than he have to look upon them. I don’t need to do jack shit.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:36 PM

4. I agree

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:39 PM

8. If they like Trump

they would have loved Batista.

Castro was no prize but people forget (or have never been told) who he overthrew. Just because Batista was a stooge for American interests doesn't mean he was any better than who replaced him. And at least with Castro the people got healthcare and literacy.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:00 PM

15. Hear, hear!



They understand nothing. They are fools.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:32 PM

2. and they don't see how the republican party squashes all of their aspirations?

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:44 PM

11. No, since consistent racism hasn't touched them directly they don't believe it exist to the point ..

... of oppression for a group of people.

Where people who've experience how any "ism" screws with their lives curls in response to Red Don's bigotry.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:34 PM

3. I thought it had something to do with machismo, I can see it is more complicated than that

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Response to Walleye (Reply #3)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:02 AM

87. Yes, there is a serious gender gap, where Latinas lean more Democratic and Latinos more Republican.

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Response to Walleye (Reply #3)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 11:38 AM

97. Not really more complicated.

Being Mexican-American myself and having family that supports the GOP, though not necessarily Trump, it is actually quite simple. They buy into the bullshit messaging of the GOP.

The language in the story is clear. "We don't want to be dependent on the Government" Like that is a a Democratic Party platform. That is a right wing talking point. We are ALL dependent in some way, on the government. You drive to work? You are dependent on the government. The roads...GOVERNMENT. The water out of your tap comes out consistently and clean? GOVERNMENT. The electricity in your home is standard and not sparking or catching fire? GOVERNMENT, idiots.

Open borders? Again, right wing bullshit talking point. I have not heard ONE serious person in the Democratic Party advocate for open borders. I know that people in the DSA talk about open borders and free movement of workers, but the DSA is not part of the Democratic Party and has no sway in the politics of the party. You can argue that we have not done enough to push through immigration reform, but that is arguable because Republicans always block any meaningful push for reform. The reality is the Republicans favor immigration the way it is for two big reasons. 1. Undocumented workers can be exploited by large ranchers, farmers, and other businesses (typically Republican owned). 2. Undocumented workers are a convenient target to scare gullible idiots like those in the story. It is easier to blame the workers who are risking their lives to come work here without papers, than it is to go after the employers who hire them willingly and preferably. As John Fugelsang says, "You can solve undocumented immigration easily, just lock up a bunch of rich employers for hiring people without papers and it will stop."

That guy who talked about crime in Mexico. Where do you think that the criminals get their guns and the money that allows them to compete with or corrupt the government officials? Grows on trees? The US supplies both. The guns directly (Mexico has tighter gun laws than the US by far). The money? The US is the largest market for drugs, of which Mexico is the largest supplier. How do you think El Chapo ended up becoming a billionaire, good investments? There are billboards in Guadalajara, one of Mexico's largest industrial centers, which are targeted at police and they say, "Plomo o Plata" which means "Lead (bullets) or Silver (slang/money). So police have a choice of being targeted by cartels, or working with them.

It has nothing to do with machismo or any other value ascribed to Latino groups. It has to do with ignorance. Ignorance of the actual issues. Ignorance of the Republican's bullshit. Ignorance of the history the US has with Latin America, how our policies and direct interference in their countries, has had enormous influence on the sad state in many Latin American countries.

There is a saying the may or may not be accurately attributed to Porfirio Diaz, the dictator of Mexico just before the Revolution of 1910. "Pobre de Mexico, tan lejos de Dios, tan cerca de los Estados Unidos" "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States". People knew back then what a bad effect our actions had on Latin America.

Unless you are a wealthy minority (and even then) there is no reason to support the Republicans outside of ignorance and gullibility. Not complicated at all.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #97)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 01:03 PM

101. Good explanation. We are ignorant of history, And current events

These idiots trying to scare us with socialism, we’re a lot closer politically to 1930s Germany than we are to Venezuela. We are all dependent on each other, we are the government. And we are dependent on the other countries in the world. I don’t understand people who think they live on a different planet and can ignore this one. I Don’t get the term globalist. And trade? What, they don’t like strawberries in January? Oh and all the people who say they love this country but seem to hate at least half of us. We can’t stop fighting the Civil War. And we can’t seem to eliminate racism.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:36 PM

5. Depressing, but reasonable in a highly self-interested way. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:38 PM

6. "..Did he word it correctly? No,...a" Bullshit, like many black republicans they minimize overt

... disdain republicans have for anything non-white.

Trump DID word that correctly, he doesn't value you as a human because of the color of your skin.

A lot of black republicans don't think people REALLY think that way because they haven't been exposed to any kind of oppression DIRECTLY ... so its dismissed as actions meant for votes like Enriquez.

Its also easy for people like Lil Wayne (aka sellout) to think the racism is benign because of the dichotomies people with deep racist believes hold in their lives.

No, republicans disvalue you because of your skin color ... PERIOD.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:39 PM

7. He called them rapists and locked up brown children to punish their parents.

Fuck every last piece of shit who supports republicans and dump and idgaf what color they are.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:47 PM

12. from the article

On the socialism issue and others, my conversations with pro-Trump Latinos revealed the disconnect between how they see the president and how liberals see them: They don’t care if the president speaks harshly about immigration, because they support stronger efforts to regulate it and secure America’s borders. They don’t blame Trump for his own personal shortcomings, because he advances social-conservative priorities by appointing conservative jurists and condemning abortion. They don’t worry too much about systemic racism, because they think individuals should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and take personal responsibility for their circumstances. And they don’t think the president is racist; indeed, they repeat his rhetoric about Black Lives Matter protesters and “open borders.” When liberals accuse them of hypocrisy or try to point out contradictions, that doesn’t turn them off Trump—it just reaffirms his presidency’s connection to their personal values, however different they are from those of the bulk of the Latino electorate.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:04 PM

18. In true Republican fashion, fuck you I've got mine.

I despise republicans.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:09 PM

20. pretty much with a shit tonne of religious bullshit tossed in, plus intra-group racism/prejudice, &

a healthy heaping shovelful of misogyny/machismo

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Response to Celerity (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:15 PM

23. Whatever the "religion" raising that level of self importance to the detriment of so many is the

Antithesis of what they say they “believe” .

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:26 PM

26. it's Catholicism mostly, so what do you expect? 2000 years of retrograde dross, murder wars, torture

hate, greed, etc etc etc.

Full disclosure, I am a to-the-bone atheist. No woo for me.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:46 PM

29. My husband and I were both raised Catholic.

We never bought the dogma. It was a small agricultural town of mostly Italian and Portuguese farmers. I grew up around that conservative bullshit. It’s everything you said and more.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #12)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 01:14 PM

102. Which means their allegiance is irrational. Completely emotional.

Trump doesn't support anything they think he does. He uses it as a means to hook them emotionally then couldn't care less. He didn't put Comey Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch on the bench because of abortion. He put them on the court to help keep him in office.

Bottom line is that they fall for the bullshit that Trump and the GOP feed them.

We shouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy. They are just gullible and ignorant (willingly or not is a question).

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:40 PM

9. It is all screwed up

Cubans think they are white and identify with the white supremacists. They look down upon other Hispanics.

Mexican-Americans who have been here a long time detest the new immigrants.

Many LatinX born here or who have been here for a long time see the new immigrants from Venezuela, Guatemala, El Salvador, Panama and Mexico as leeches.

None of them think of Puerto Ricans as real Hispanics and see them as elitist and privileged because of their US nationality.

Colombians, Peruvians, Chileans and Argentinians also look down upon Mexican and Central Americans because they think they are whiter.

We as Democrats need to have a coherent message that appeals to all of the above. It is above my paygrade to decide what that message will be.

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Response to AmericanCanuck (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:56 PM

51. +1. Very accurate observations

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Response to AmericanCanuck (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 03:38 AM

62. +1 It's complex & troubling. Do these people think they'll

be welcomed and accepted by nazi, confederate and white nationalist T. supporters?

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Response to AmericanCanuck (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:47 PM

100. Same thing here in New Mexico

Within the group of Hispanics whose ancestors made it to NM hundreds of years ago, resides a faction that believe they have pure Spanish blood and therefore are better than the Mexicans. This faction is rabidly Catholic because the church has always reinforced this racist belief.

In reality, only a minute number of Hispanics descended from Conquistadors in NM are of pure Spanish blood. Like me they have Spanish and Native American blood(50%+ Iberian peninsula/20% Native American in my case), but their racism and religion trump everything.

Of course there are a large numbers of recent Latin American immigrants here who are evangelical and vote for the Repukes accordingly

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:40 PM

10. I still don't understand and never will.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:48 PM

13. Many are stone racist, too.

And fascist

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 06:00 AM

77. I've definitely seen that.

I live in a large Cuban area.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 09:57 PM

14. So, right wingers are hypocritical, self serving dipshits who

fall for simplistic sloganeering? Nothing new here.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:00 PM

16. Looks like Republicans exploit class warfare and racism issues with

them just like they do with everyone else.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:03 PM

17. I got mine, fuck everyone else.

 

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:08 PM

19. god and gays sung to the tune of macho man by the village people nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:21 PM

24. no, more along the lines of tejano, or bandera or mariachi or norteno or salsa or criolla, etc etc

The Village People are whitebread pop (full disclosure, I detest The Village People, and yes I am a member of the LGBTQ community, we are so not monolithic).

Latinx, especially the ones Rump and Rethugs target would never be attracted to that, especially if they are aware of the gay background.

see the music in the advert

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Response to Celerity (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:32 PM

41. That's a super broad and wrong generalization. I grew up knowing

plenty of people who would not listen to music, unless it was in English. It didn't even matter that they only understood a few words. Not only that, The Village people were huge across Latin America.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #41)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:38 PM

44. Disagree, sorry nt

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Response to Celerity (Reply #44)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:43 PM

46. Disagree about what? Are you now gonna tell me you

know more about us, than we know about ourselves? Also you seemed to have missed the irony about groups who are not monolithic. By talking about how monolithic others are?

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:46 PM

47. you are the one broadbrushing, not me nt

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Response to Celerity (Reply #47)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:49 PM

48. OK now, are you reading your own posts? Am I talking to 2 different

people? What's happening here?

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #48)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:03 AM

53. I am following along just fine

We are talking about conservative Trump voting asshole Latinx, a culture that often has viscous deeply-sunk rabid homophobia in in it, whether in the US or not. I also provided a video that shows exactly what I claimed.

you said

The Village people were huge across Latin America.


That is a non sequitur in regards to my post

It means nothing in the analysis of the current 2020 reactionary segments within the Latinx US cohorts, and it literally is a broad-brush as well. It assumes that a popularity from long ago somehow means that these people will respond well, across decades and against their retrograde attitudes on sexual preference and identity. It attempts to posit a universal appeal with no evidentiary underpinnings of note.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #53)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:26 AM

54. Right wing assholes are right wing assholes, regardless of

their ethnicity. I've found way more homophobia here than I ever did growing up in Puerto Rico. But there are plenty of right wing Puerto Ricans. I also know gay right wing Puerto Ricans who have their own bullshit reasons to support this shit show. Whether it's greed, ignorance, what they perceive as their own interests. You seem to be lumping people together whose origins go back to over 20 countries. There is way more nuance to this. And claiming to know what music they like or don't like. And why, because of some dumb ass commercial with some shitty generic "Latin American sounding music?

You were the one who said "The Village People are whitebread pop...". Guess what, that stuff appeals to all kinds of people. The person you replied to made a joke. And you jumped on it as if you're some kind of expert on the subject, without demonstrating much expertise.

Or is your implication that because of their ethnic origin they have to be even more homophobic? Talk about outdated notions.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #54)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:36 AM

55. I did not interpret as a joke, but I still stand my my posts, as joke or not, my points are valid

Or is your implication that because of their ethnic origin they have to be even more homophobic? Talk about outdated notions.


I never made an interracial and/or interethnic comparative statement as to homophobia

but to deny that it is not far too rampant in the Latinx community when taken as a whole (and ESPECIALLY amongst the more reactionary and conservative ones, who are, after all, the subject of this OP) is simply untrue

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Response to Celerity (Reply #55)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:42 AM

56. Ah, so you didn't say then the very thing you're saying now. Got it. nt

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #56)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:53 AM

57. stating a fact is not a negative thing, nor contradictory of anything I said nt

If you want to deny it, then that is on you not me. All i said i my last reply is that I never stated the Latinx community was better or worse when it comes to homophobia than any other ethnic/racial/religious/geographically defined groups and/or cultures. That entire subject is both vast and explosive and I am not going to get involved into it.

I will, however, will definitively state that the conservative/reactionary Latinx cohorts are without a shadow of a doubt more homophobic than the non conservative, non reactionary cohorts. It goes with the territory, just as it does for all other groups/cultures.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:11 PM

21. I spoke to one tonight

Someone I actually know. I'm shocked to find out he's voting for Trump, especially since he voted for Hillary, or so he says, in 2016.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:27 PM

27. yes, Rump is doing better with Latinx in 2020 than he was in 2016, and not just in FL.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:12 PM

22. Good article

I think it's a good idea to try to understand all the groups who hate Dems and Liberals to see where they are coming from. If we understand them we could probably convince some of them that their ideas are regressive and could help change their mind. For the ones that are deep Trumpers we could automatically ignore them.

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Response to dustyscamp (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:05 PM

34. I guess you are right. nt

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:22 PM

25. I've always been confused at liberal treating all Hispanics like they are a different race.

Many are white and come from countries as racist as ours. That was driven home by a neighbor named Hector. Looks Italian. We had a family from the Dominican Republic move in. They were definitely mixed race and good folks. Hector was consernef that we had, (well, I don’t want a hide but he used an insulting term) moving in next to us. American did not invent racism.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:52 PM

30. That's what makes "Latinx" such an offensive term for them

Lumping them all together as one people is extremely ignorant.

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Response to ansible (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:14 PM

35. Agreed. Call an Argentinian or a Chilean that and wait for the reaction.

Like because they all speak Spanish they are the same. Totally insulting if you think for 2 seconds.

But we liberals sometimes get carried away with our own stereotypes.

I know 2 very racist people from South America. One from Venezuela and one from Argentina. Surprising? No. Both are white and from racist countries.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #35)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 09:30 AM

85. And the Brazilians speak Portuguese - the two I've worked with were white.

I was taught to pronounce Gomes the right way.

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Response to Klaralven (Reply #85)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:25 AM

90. I have a Gomes that works for me! White dude.

And a DeCosta also from Brazil. White with blue eyes. He votes Democratic but says his father in Brazil is a big racist.

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Response to ansible (Reply #30)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:42 AM

69. Of course, "Latinx" is also a stupid term.

It is mainly a "white" PC term. If people are so concerned about de-sexing the language, then they should do it according to the language, which would make the term "Latine" more in line with the language. Of course, there is the whole issue of categorization with Latino, Hispanic, Chicano, and so on. Basically, roping all peoples of "Latin" and South America into one ethnic group is stupid and just a huge mess (which you already stated, sorry for the repeat, just agreeing).

About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #69)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:15 AM

73. Yep.

Completely agree with this.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:34 PM

28. "It all boils down to understanding that you are in charge of your own kind of predicament,"

This kind of thing drives me up the wall.................

you don't get to choose who you marry
what happens to your body
you can't organize labor for better pay
you don't get to choose who you vote for (gerrymandering: politicians get to choose their voters)
you have no right to healthcare if you get sick
you can't even have a cake made if the baker doesn't like something about your lifestyle!

you exist completely at the mercy of corporations and the dogma of religious institutions.......... but you are "in charge of your predicament". FUCK OFF WITH THAT SHIT

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:56 PM

31. All in all, sounds like they are that type of American, descended

from recent immigrants from less-desirable (poorer European or non-white countries), who wish to pull up the immigration drawbridge behind themselves. They believe they are not like immigrants who want to come here today. They are better, they are true Americans, and shouldn't have to identify, empathize, or compete with those "fresh off the boat" (or from across the border, etc.). It's a chip on their shoulder. I think this runs through other immigrant cultures as well. But also, they sound like typical Trump-humping GOP assholes. So, fuck 'em. Done trying to understand other people's stupid trains of thought.

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Response to BusyBeingBest (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 08:43 AM

82. Gosh, yes.


We are a country of immigrants that doesn't like immigrants. Look through our history. The second wave of the KKK was in reaction to the influx of immigrants (from places like Italy) to this country.

And yeah, fuck 'em.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 10:58 PM

32. Over half of Latinos identify as white

Last edited Mon Nov 9, 2020, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)

So the fact that a large portion are goops is unsurprising.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:19 PM

37. Because over half of Latinos are white. This is a blind spot for democrats.

And will bite us in the ass if we treat them like minorities. Treat them like Americans. Because once they are here over 1 generation that’s what they truly are. And many are white. Perhaps a majority.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #37)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 01:49 AM

58. They are not white, as white is defined in America.

Most American whites would never consider any Latino to be 'real' white.

Remember that race in many ways is a socio-political definition more than biological. The one drop rule and all, as even most fair-skinned Latinos are at least somewhat mixed. And even those 'pure' European Latinos are still not considered white due to being part of a community/culture (Latino/Hispanic) that is identified with many brownskinned people.

The blindspot for Dems is that most voters (including voters of color) don't care for too much immigration, which puts presure on the labor market and social services.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #58)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:13 AM

65. Yup, as far the racists are concerned, if you don't fit the specific bill you are "tainted"

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Response to radius777 (Reply #58)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 08:26 AM

79. I don't disagree with your first point

But when we are talking about their voting habits what others think of them is irrelevant. It’s what they think that matters. I work with many people from South America and the Caribbean. They are Caucasian and know they are. Their kids look like me often times. What my redneck family in Arkansas think about them does not enter into their voting decisions. Americans often felt the same way about Italians when they were the new immigrant group and today many Americans of Italian heritage support trump. That my point. After one generation thinking of them as somehow ‘different’ from other white Americans is a bad political take.

As to you second point, most Americans support legal immigration. It’s illegal immigration that is disliked.

Have a nice Friday.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #58)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:40 AM

91. I worked with a Hispanic whose parents had emigrated from Scandinavia - He was white.

His first language was Spanish and he spoke English with an accent.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:04 PM

33. What they don't understand are the types of socialism vs. democracy with social safety net.

I have to walk in their shoes, I guess. But how much of a monster does Trump have to be to get them to vote against him. I guess I don't understand their fears. "Socialism" that demands equal justice under the law, that demands equal opportunity for all citizens, seeks to provide healthcare for all citizens, that requires taxes to provide for the common good? What is it they don't like about Biden but love about Trump?

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:17 PM

36. Huh. I guess these Trump supporters have somehow completely missed

the part where Trump described them as rapists and murderers, and has made it clear he thinks they should all be deported. And a lot of Republicans want to do away with birthright citizenship, so I guess a lot of them should start packing so they'll be all set when ICE comes for them.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:30 PM

40. As onecaliberal said,

In true Republican fashion, fuck you I've got mine.

I despise republicans.

And so do I.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #36)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:28 PM

39. He said that about Mexicans. Plenty of South American immigrants would agree.

Most South American immigrants are from the upper and middle class of their countries. They are white. They don’t just identify as white. They are white.

And they often have a worse opinion of people with Native American blood than most Americans. We tend to give Native Americans a special place. In some South American countries they just killed them all. And having any of their blood in you is not welcomed. At least for the ruling class. I personally know several immigrants from South America who feel this way.

We make a grave mistake when we mentally think of all Spanish speaking immigrants as a monolith. In my experience they are even more diverse in their outlook than Americans.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #39)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:33 PM

42. Oh, I know they are not all a monolith.

But they don't get it that Republicans lump them all together. They'll be the ones saying, "First they came for the Mexicans, and I didn't care because I wasn't Mexican. Then they came for Cubans, and I didn't care, because I wasn't Cuban. Then they came for anyone who spoke Spanish, and What The Fuck? I speak Spanish! How dare they come for me!"

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:39 PM

45. I respectfully disagree. Argentinians and Chileans are as white as us.

And the upper and middle classes in many other countries are as well. And those are the ones coming here. Not the poor.

They have nothing to fear. Once here they are just like me. And realize most coming here from those countries are not poor. Many speak English when they arrive.

Many South American citizens hold Mexicans in the same place trump does. Not surprising. They are white.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:54 PM

50. We used to joke that Argentinians feel more European than actual Europeans. nt

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #50)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 08:29 AM

80. I only know a few Argentinians.

But without exception, no matter their families left Europe over a century ago they still feel as much affinity for their ancestral home in Europe as they do Argentina. Odd for an American.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #45)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:57 AM

94. I am not talking about how they see themselves. Or what they actually look like.

I am pointing out that to Republicans, all Central and South Americans and Spanish speaking people are alike. If they think Republicans get that they are not raping and murdering Mexicans, they are not paying attentions.

At the risk of repeating myself: it's not how they perceive themselves, it's how Republicans see them.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #39)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 09:03 AM

84. Actually, he went on to include South America in his disgusting speech

My mom is a black South American who immigrated to the US in the mid 70s.

It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably— probably— from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.

https://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:37 PM

43. Fuck Them along with Everyone else that Supports Trump

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Thu Oct 29, 2020, 11:49 PM

49. The dividing line among Florida Hispanics is whether or not they are foreign born

 

Very clear cut. I have seen that in recent crosstabs, and crosstabs in prior years. Yesterday's Univision poll was merely the most recent evidence. Trump's approval rating among foreign born Florida Hispanics is 51/49 positive. His approval among Hispanics born in the United States is 38/62 negative.

Cubans are a big chunk of that but also Venezuelans, etc.

I save so many links on this type of stuff. I'll paste one section that more or less describes the problem in Miami-Dade. There are a ton of older Cubans here: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/cuban-immigrants-united-states-2018

"In 2018, the median age of Cuban immigrants was 53, much higher than that of the overall foreign- and U.S.-born populations, at 45 and 36, respectively. In large part, this is a result of the disproportionately high number of Cuban seniors. Twenty-seven percent of Cubans were 65 or older, whereas this age group accounted for just 16 percent of the overall foreign- and native-born populations. Meanwhile, Cuban immigrants are more likely than the native born but less likely than the overall foreign-born population to be of working age (ages 18 to 64)."

BTW, the guy in the photo from the OP is standing in front of the entrance to the Doral golf course owned by Trump. That intersection is jammed and where he is standing the light takes forever to change. The sign previously said Doral for decades but Trump naturally changed it to "Trump International Doral"



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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:00 AM

52. Ugh

My cousin lives in TX. According to him the Latinos there are very racist toward blacks (hate them) and even call other Latinos trying to enter the country "w*tbacks." They basically sound pretty damned racist and "I've got mine."

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 02:09 AM

59. Many people of color and immigrants are more conservative,

and we need to recognize this. The centrism of Clintonism was not just about winning over suburban whites but PoC as well - which is what some white leftists never seem to get about this topic. It was Southern blacks and Sun Belt Latinos who helped Bill Clinton to the nomination in '92, and every 'Clinton Dem' (including Biden this year) since.

Trump's machismo, stance against immigration and radical Islam, stance against China (even though it's fake) on trade and outsourcing, image as a 'businessman' (ingrained from the 'Apprentice') - is what drives his support not only amongst whites but also many PoC who support such positions.

Trump is a white nationalist - but some vote for him because they view him as the only one doing something about these issues.

If Dems were to move to the center (and sound tougher) on these issues - even while taking liberal positions on many others like climate change, systemic racism, healthcare, economic inequality etc that liberals care about - we could easily win many of these voters back and build a durable coalition.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #59)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 02:49 AM

61. moving further right is suicidal for the Democratic Party, the centre of the American political

axis is already massively and artificially tilted to the right compared to almost any other advanced Western nation.

A large swathe of the most right leaning Dems now (say the most right 1/3rd of the Caucus) would be solidly centre-right in most other Western nations. A Manchin type would be on the right edge of most centre right Eu parties, and a Henry Cuellar type, with his bigoted anti-LGBTQ, pro gunner, radical pro-life stance would bot even be welcome in most of the centre-right parties. Many, if not most of the Rethuglicans would be considered members of an extremist hate group. Trump would literally be locked up for hate crimes and inciting hate crimes (NOT joking) in many EU nations.

The largest block to be captured is the non voters, and moving to a flat out centre to centre right stance will NEVER get them. If the party tries to move further right than it already has, it will rip itself apart. The so-called 'far left' in the party (AOC, Bernie, etc etc etc ) would be bog standard social democrats in almost any other advanced nation. You would be laughed out the room if you tried to describe them as some sort of bomb throw ultra lefties.

So no, your idea is disastrous. The party is not going to slide over into towards or into the old centre-right Rockefeller Rethug space.


If Dems were to move to the center (and sound tougher) on these issues - even while taking liberal positions on many others like climate change, systemic racism, healthcare, economic inequality


this literally makes no sense

as to be 'centrist' in skewed America, you can never deal with those issues as it will be impossible to do bold enough programmes

a centrist stance (a real one, centrist in the current American sense) will never even be able to pass a public option, never will expand the SCOTUS, never will doe away with the filibuster, never will truly crack down on the giant banks, never will be cappable of a truly impactful climate change plan, will never truly deal with systemic racism

why?

because you have to pander to the centre and the centre right forces all who have too much skin in the game to ever allow those things to be fully addressed, they simply want the old status quo returned to with a nice shiny coat of feelgood paint on it, but the same old same old in terms of who has systemic control

the 3rd way neoliberals brought the nation some truly disastrous things

NAFTA (was never about fair trade, only a worker class destroying typology that was gasligtingly labelled 'free' trade)

1996 Telecommunication Act (hello rise of corporate hate media and RW monopolies, and other shitbaggery)

Repeal of Glass Steagall (allowed the predator investment banks to ruinously co-mingle funds with thrifts, and allowed thrifts to gamble wildly with their monies)

Commodities and Futures Modernisation Act of 2000 (disastrously relegalised long-banned derivatives trading in almost all forms)

the last 2 laid the foundations for the 2007-2010 financial global crises

hard pass on that dross

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Response to Celerity (Reply #61)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:08 AM

64. Reread my post, I never said move to the center overall,

but to move to the center on the main issues (immigration, terrorism and trade) that Trump won on - which would allow us to be liberal on the other issues.

In the 90's Clinton had to move to the center on the issues relevant to that era - otherwise he would not have won. But I don't suggest running that way now.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #64)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:15 AM

66. Trump was ignorant and wrong on those issues

He said we should shut down the refugee system until we "figure out what is going on". His Muslim ban left out Saudi Arabia or Pakistan where most terrorists come from.

Don't get me started on Trump's family separation policy or how he's treated asylum seekers.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #66)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:18 AM

67. and if he manages to "win" again, we aint seen nothing of the cruelty coming.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #64)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:26 AM

68. What does 'move to the centre' on immigration, terrorism, and trade mean?

Perhaps I might agree, perhaps not, but I have no clue what you are suggesting. I am more than willing to listen.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 02:24 AM

60. If they're not low info voters they're psychopaths

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 03:43 AM

63. Well if Trump wins again, I hope they are not surprised when they and their families are picked up

Apparently Stephen Miller has a list of immigration stuff ready to go if Trump wins, stripping birthright citizenship amongst other things.....

So if they don't realise nazis will eventually come for them because they will not be one of them ever, then there is no helping them.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 04:42 AM

70. Like This

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:08 AM

71. All poltics is local

As Tip O'Neill used to say.

Stick these Hispanic Trumpanzees at some Trump rally in Wisconsin or Ohio, and after the non-sympathetic Anglo crowd beats then to within an inch of their lives, merely for looking as they do, THEN ask them, when they can talk again, if they think they're still in the right company.

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Response to DFW (Reply #71)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:13 AM

72. indeed, i've never understood Turkeys wrapping themselves in foil and hopping the oven.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:19 AM

74. The key is when they say "I knew what Trump really meant"

This is just classic denial and rationalization. "Sure, what he says sounds racist against me, but if you use these elaborate interpretive gymnastics, it actually means something totally different that I agree with."

Anyone operating with this kind of motivated reasoning is not going to be reachable by an appeal to objective facts.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:43 AM

75. I missed the expose on "What Conservatives Don't Understand About Pro-Biden Latinos"

You'd think The Atlantic would do a 200,000 word "puff piece" about that, since it appears that Retrumplican CONservatives don't "understand" 60-70% of Latino voters!

This article is nothing more than a corporate media attempt to normalize the abnormal, and provide cover for evil.

I'm going to go back and look in the archives for all those "What the Weimer Republic don't Understand about Pro-Hitler Jews"

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #75)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 05:53 AM

76. Verband nationaldeutscher Juden

was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews


Yes, In His Early Days, There Were Jews for Hitler Before the Full Horror of His Ideology Was Carried Out in the Holocaust

https://buzzflash.com/articles/yes-in-his-early-days-there-were-jews-for-hitler-before-the-full-horror-of-his-ideology-was-carried-out-in-the-holocaust



“Jews for Hitler? You must be kidding.” That’s a question that I have come across on a number of occasions as I have studied the history of Nazi Germany over a period of many years. And yes, indeed, there were Jews for Hitler. There were not too many of them. And certainly many Jews who were living in Germany when Hitler was appointed as Chancellor by President Paul von Hindenburg on Jan. 30, 1933 and then was given dictatorial powers via the “Enabling Act” by the German Reichstag on March 23, 1933 were from those moments on afraid for their employment, their property, and civil rights they may have had under the predecessor Weimar Republic and eventually their lives. But “Jews for Hitler” there were, and organized too, primarily in an organization called “The Association of German National Jews.”

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 06:10 AM

78. They support him but he doesn't support them.

Sad.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 08:36 AM

81. with Trump acting like a dictator, it's a wash

...Trump's antics are turning off folks who know firsthand the danger of authoritarian rule.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 08:51 AM

83. The nonsensical excuses and justifications that are being used by some

republicans, Latinos, Blacks, evangelicals, women, etc. really don't matter to me at this point.

At the end of the day, it shows their character, and it shows that there is no red line for these individuals. Crimes against humanity have already occurred on our soil and it looks like they would be silent in the face of genocide as well because... wait for it... Rugged individualism? An artificially propped up stock market?

Seriously... F*ck these disgusting sociopaths. If Biden wins in spite of the massive GOP cheating, I hope to never hear from these selfish, shortsighted nutjobs again!

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 09:56 AM

86. Fascists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.

The thing they all have in common is that they feel a profound need to be ruled and controlled by a harsh, authoritarian male, who will tell them what to do, and how to be, because they have great difficulty thinking for themselves.

So they will vote against their own interests, and vote for a mean, abusive father figure like Trump, Hitler etc, ad nauseum.

The majority of Hispanic folks will vote for Joe, and Hispanic women, who know an abuser when they see one, will vote for Joe in significantly greater numbers than Hispanic men.

Nothing against Kamala, she's great, but I was hoping Joe would choose New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham for a running mate, in order to have more appeal to the Hispanic community, which comprises a huge segment and voting bloc among the overall US population.

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Response to Roisin Ni Fiachra (Reply #86)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:10 AM

88. If he had not chosen a black woman, I fear all hell would have broken loose. SC primary and then the

racial justice/BLM protests due to the white nationalist coppers killing us black folk pretty much etched that move in stone. I like Lujan Grisham btw, she would have been a good VP in a more normal year.

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Response to Roisin Ni Fiachra (Reply #86)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:56 AM

93. How do you know most Hispanics will vote for Biden

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Response to Beringia (Reply #93)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 12:18 PM

99. Because most Hispanic folks are kind, intelligent, perceptive human beings.

It's not rocket science, ya know.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:19 AM

89. No lack of understanding

It'd not that liberals don't understand that a lot of latinos vote republican, or the reasons they give for doing so.

It's that like most people who vote republican, the reasons they give for doing so are a series of falsehoods sold to them by the republican party.

“We recognize that open borders would not be good for the economy, for our families.”... who is actually proposing "open borders"?

“America, we’re really at the crossroads of either self-governance or being dependent on the government" - another republican boogieman.

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 10:46 AM

92. It is sad to see so much support from Latinos for Trump

While Biden generally enjoys majority support from Blacks, it is not so from Latinos. Also there was a lot of support for Bernie Sanders, so there is a big split there. Considering Latinos are making up a larger part of the demographics in America, this is an important political piece of the puzzle.

I feel glad for immigrants coming over, but I do find it sad and troubling that for example in the neighborhood I live in, Berwyn, it is mainly Hispanic. And my father spent his whole career working to integrate neighborhoods such as Berwyn that was all White, (and he had many experiences in Berwyn), for Black people.

I have been reading a book by Ofari Earl Hutchinson to try to understand these matters more.





A review from Good Reads

This book by Earl Ofari Hutchinson, a noted African American journalist, novelist, and radio and television commentator, was inspired by an misunderstanding with a Chicano poet from his home town of Chicago. Hutchinson discusses hot button topics where Latinos and African-Americans are in conflict, such as immigration reform, jobs, education, and the military, which mainly consist of recent events in California and his home town of Los Angeles. One unifying theme to these accounts is the mistrust that members of both groups have towards each other, and the lack of leadership displayed by prominent members of both communities. Hutchinson's accounts make for interesting reading, and it is a good introduction to the problems dividing these two groups, but the book is limited by a lack of in depth analysis and recommendations.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2068663.The_Latino_Challenge_to_Black_America

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 11:03 AM

95. "Pro-Trump Latinos" brings back a memory from a Cheech & Chong show we went to in 2016.

This was in Los Angeles, shortly before the election. At the beginning of the show, Cheech was warming up the audience, and happened to mention Donald Trump. The hall filled with the expected boos, and as the boos died away, a small amount of clapping from a few Trump supporters. Cheech paused, and looked at one of the Trump supporters, and said, "Really? REALLY!? You like Donald Trump?" Then, he said, rather disgustedly, "Any Mexican that likes Trump should have to turn in his beans."

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 11:06 AM

96. Those who emigrated from Fascist countries are Fascist *here*, too!

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Response to Celerity (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2020, 11:46 AM

98. They're fucking idiots like the rest of Trump supporters

I have no need to understand the thought process of a fucking idiot.

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