Court rules Muslim girl must take swim class (Germany)

[obamanut2012]

Court rules Muslim girl must take swim class

Published: 29 Sep 12 09:11 CET

An German court on Friday refused to allow a Muslim student to skip swimming lessons after she said she was uncomfortable being so close to bare-chested boys.


"The 12-year-old, originally from Morocco, is going to school in Frankfurt. She had refused to take part in swimming lessons and had been marked down.

She filed to be given the right to skip the classes, her lawyer arguing that according to the Koran, she was not only forbidden from showing herself to boys but also from seeing boys topless.

An administrative court in Kassel, near Frankfurt, rejected her application.

It said in its ruling that she could wear the full-body swimsuit, known as the "burkini" already used by several girls at her school, which would be enough to guarantee her religious freedom.

The court added that the family had chosen to live in Germany where mixed swimming classes were the norm.

<snip>


http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120929-45261.html


++++++++++++++++++++++++

I wasn't sure how I felt at first about this ruling, but decided I agree with the German court (read the rest of their article for more of their reasonings).

[cali]

1. I agree with the court.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. swimming is a required course?

if it is so offensive, drop the course and go take a private series of lessons if you want to swim.

sP

[cali]

7. it seems pretty clear that it is required.

that seems to surprise you. I'm not sure why.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. while i get that she is required to go NOW

i assume (but i don't know much about the german education system) that the course is elective. i was thinking that perhaps she believed there would a segregation or something else that would allow her to swim. i know plenty of germans who DON'T swim so compulsory swimming classes doesn't match with that...

sP

[riderinthestorm]

11. You know Germans who can't swim, or don't swim? There's a difference.

There are still high schools even in the US that had pools and part of required gym class was swimming. I don't know of too many schools where there isn't mandatory PE.

Do you think children need to be segregated for gym class/swimming?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

12. yes, I know germans who cannot swim...

did I anywhere in that post suggest that I agree in any way with segregating a swimming class (or anything for that matter)? I am not sure why you are asking...

sP

[obamanut2012]

15. No, it is a requirement -- it used to be in teh US, too

My grandparents, parents, and most of my aunts and uncles had to have swimming in school. And, yes, it was a requirement. Even the kids who wore braces (from polio) weren't excused.

It was considered partly PE, but mainly for safety.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. I did not know that...

my father was a teacher even back into the 60's (not that it was so long ago) and there were no required classes for swimming in the schools he taught in. i don't even think they offered them though they did have a swimming team that used a local public pool for practices and meets.

do you think they should make religious accommodations? perhaps an all girl class or something the like? i don't like the idea... but i can see where it might be allowed. i guess the real question then becomes, what level of tolerance or accommodation should the gov't have/make? any? none? i don't know what would happen here in the states...

sP

[obamanut2012]

22. No, I agree with the court

[JI7]

25. i wish we had swimming when i was in High School, we didn't even have a pool

i don't know of many high schools that do have a pool. and i'm in california.

[DetlefK]

31. It's part of the standard lessons in physical education in german schools.

I'm from Germany. My school had an agreement with a local public swimming-pool: We got to use it for 1,5h in the morning, per week and class.
Swimming lessons replaced the usual stuff (team-sports, gymnastics...) for 1-2 months in 2 consecutive years (6th and 7th grade?).

Most of the time, the lessons were gender-segregated: Us boys had a male sports-teacher and the girls had a female sports-teacher and we did our practices at opposing ends of the swimming-pool. Some lessons, like holding your breath and picking up something from 10ft depth, were held jointly.

[riderinthestorm]

3. These are children! Of course they should be in class!

This girl's religious brainwashing by her parents is almost complete if they are already inculcating in their CHILD that she can't swim with boys and girls in school.

I completely agree with the court. There's nothing in the Quran which requires children to be segregated (or covered for pete's sake). Nothing.

[obamanut2012]

5. Excellent point

[snooper2]

4. poor kid, parents actually making her follow her mythical holy book

She's got a lot in common with Jinger Duggar I'm sure---


http://freejinger.org/
free Jinger Duggar!

[etherealtruth]

6. Reasonable accomadations have been made

The courts decision sounds like a correct one.

[louis-t]

8. "burkini" Really funny word.

I agree with the court.

[undeterred]

9. Is she really uncomfortable around 12 year old barechested boys?

I mean, they're barely at puberty, right? Thats the adults telling her she's uncomfortable.

[obamanut2012]

16. I agree

[Honeycombe8]

21. I'm guessing Dad doesn't like the idea. nt

[War Horse]

13. I agree with the ruling too

Especially, as the OP said, after reading the basis for the ruling.

I kinda view being able to swim as a very basic life skill...

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. In a free society, one can't be guaranteed comfort.

Because you're going to be around others who are also free.

[Nye Bevan]

18. If you don't want your daughter to see topless 12-year old boys,

don't move to a Western country and enroll your daughter in a mixed sex school that has swimming lessons.

[Nay]

27. Thank you. You either want the freedom you moved to Germany for, or you can move back. Simple

as that. Don't expect the society you moved to to cater to your every vapor over your religion. Most Europeans don't give a rip about your religion, they care about their society's/citizens' freedoms. That extends to this girl who, as she grows up in Germany, should understand that when she is an adult she doesn't have to follow any of the religious rules now required by her parents. And Germany doesn't have to give those beliefs the time of day, either.

[treestar]

19. I agree

If you want to live under strict Muslim law, there are plenty of countries that allow for that. If you want to move to Germany, you've got to deal with the way Germans do things.

[cloudbase]

30. Indeed.

One can be a German Muslim, or decide to be a Muslim in Germany.

[Honeycombe8]

20. I agree with the Court, too. nt

[JI7]

23. this is strange to me because in the United States i think any kid could easily get out of swimming

even without religious or health or any reasons. in fact it's an activity that is more seen as something people volunteer to do rather than a requirement.

maybe it's a cultural thing.

i didn't read the case or anything but was she trying to avoid swimming all together or did she want to do it without any boys there ?

[Bucky]

24. How is this different from English-only laws in this country?

Telling immigrants the pace and the comfort level at which they must assimilate into mainstream society seems a little heavy handed to me--whether we're talking about forced swimming with bare-chested boys or refusing to print state documents and election ballots in Vietnamese or Spanish. Both seem equally anti-minority. So is the DU board's preference for the statist, pro-majority decision in this particular case just based on a prejudice against the particular minority in question?

I don't mean offense here; I'm personally on the fence with this. But I'm surprised at the vehemence of the support for forced assimilation herein, including comments upthread asking "Why even move to that country if you don't want to fit in entirely there?"

[JI7]

26. this is a requirement where you are getting people to participate in something

the english only crap is more about racism. it's telling people not to take part in certain activity like using a different language.

[cali]

28. I think there's a difference. One being that state documents enable citizens to exercise

a constitutional right. In any case, you're mixing up the laws in one nation with another.

And frankly, I find your insinuation that people who don't agree with you are bigoted, disgusting.

Nor is there marked vehemence in this thread.

As for forced assimilation, that happens just by insisting that kids go to school, for instance. Or not allowing FGM. There are dozens of ways that assimilation is "forced". I don't see that in this case. She's allowed to wear a garment that completely protects her modesty.

http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=577&tbm=isch&tbnid=_K7Vj79ptschjM:&imgrefurl=http://btx3.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/burkini/&docid=V39EvjpEIM0ISM&imgurl=%253Fw%253D468&w=468&h=810&ei=Fl5nUJacA6mw0QHO7IHIAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=240&vpy=168&dur=4760&hovh=296&hovw=171&tx=81&ty=196&sig=104158124067641101560&page=1&tbnh=105&tbnw=66&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r ,s:0,i:102

[Bucky]

32. I wish you hadn't posted that picture. It's giving me impure thoughts

Now no woman is safe from me being tempted by her sinfulness.

[Moonwalk]

33. If Germans went to an Islamic country and their daughter....

...wanted to go without a head scarf to school, would the courts allow it? If they said the girl had to wear a scarf, would you consider this "forced assimilation" on the part of the Islamic country, or would you be saying that the Germans should respect that country's cultural codes? Or how about a devout Christian who brings his family to some African country where women go topless? The Christian family doesn't have to go topless themselves (that would be forced assimilation), but if their kids must go to school then their kids must go to school even if those kids will see topless teachers. We would, at that point ask why these evangelicals moved to such a place if they couldn't deal with such a practice or felt it would harm their children?

And what about Islamic honor killings? Should Germany allow them to happen because Islamic culture has it as legal to kill a woman of the family that dishonors the family? Is it "forced assimilation" to prevent honor killings?

The point of the ballots in Spanish, etc. rather than English is that American citizen have a right to vote, and we bend over backwards to make sure they can exercise that right. This situation, however, is not about the rights of this student as a German citizen--i.e. making sure she gets what all German citizens get like an education. This is about a school requirement and the culture she lives in that she must deal with because she's living in that culture. Just like a German girl, living in an Islamic country might have to wear a head scarf, even take a course in the Koran, even if it's at odds with her cultural heritage because that is the culture she lives in. Or Christian kids might not be able to keep from seeing topless women in a culture where women go topless.

Germany isn't forcing the girl to be a german girl who wears the same sort of clothes as her western counterparts, etc. That would be forced assimilation. But her family can't live there and get away with keeping their daughter out of required education classes, ones that all students must take, simply because Germany's culture doesn't agree with theirs on all educational points.

[flamingdem]

29. Die Germnz ses you must SCHWIM

den schwim