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Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:19 PM

 

Ryan outfits 10 yr old daughter with deer-hunting gear (gave her rifle as gift at age 9)

Ryan outfits daughter with deer-hunting gear

Cincinnati, Ohio (CNN) – Gearing up for deer-hunting season, Rep. Paul Ryan bought hunting clothes for his daughter to go with the rifle the Republican vice presidential nominee gave her for Christmas.

"She's hunted with me but this is the first time she gets to do the hunting herself," Ryan said of daughter Liza. "She's 10 years old and you can hunt starting at 10. I got her a rifle for Christmas last year and so I'm getting her ready."


On Tuesday in Ohio, between a town hall in Cincinnati and a rally with GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney in Vandalia, Ryan stopped at Bass Pro Shops in the Forrest Park neighborhood to get his daughter outfitted for hunting season.

The outdoorsman went directly to the "Women's Camo" area to check out their assortment of camouflage items. He purchased his daughter gloves, a beanie and a bib and paid for the $101.14 bill in cash. With a couple items in hand, he explained to reporters the hat and gloves include carbon which helps block a human's scent.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/25/ryan-outfits-daughter-with-deer-hunting-gear/

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Reply Ryan outfits 10 yr old daughter with deer-hunting gear (gave her rifle as gift at age 9) (Original post)
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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:21 PM

1. what an asswipe!!!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:24 PM

2. Do they hunt on---GASP!---government land???

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:34 PM

73. By the time Walker is through it will all be privatized

and it will be too late for all the idiot right wing hunters who voted for him to do anything about it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:24 PM

3. Can teaching children how to kill & desensitizing them to it be considered child abuse?

 

I think so.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:32 PM

6. Um no

Not teaching children where their food comes from is the problem. When the meat you eat for dinner is just a nice piece of meat in a package at the grocery store with no comprehension that it came from a living breathing animal, THAT is wrong in my opinion.

We eat meat, so we believe we need to be fully aware of all the nasty details that entails. We also recognize the spirit of the animal who died so we could eat everytime we eat meat.

Which is worse? Spending your life in a feedlot and then being killed to be packaged for meat, or spending your life living like an animal should and then having one bad morning?

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Response to Samjm (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:45 PM

13. Should he take her to a meat packing facility also?

 

Let her "bolt" the animal?

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:49 PM

83. If she eats commercial meat, sure, though I don't think a factory would let her.

Having kids be involved with food, yes meat, like this is ok. Teach them proper handling of guns. Take them fishing. Raise little fluffy bunnies and hit them over the head. Learn what meat is, where it comes from, be involved.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:54 PM

121. How about kids who grow up on farms? n/t

 

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:39 AM

141. Absolutely.

 

I think we do more harm by pretending there's a nice clean wall between meat and the reality of killing.

I hunted as a child; deer, antelope, elk, and a ton of rabbits. It did such a piss-poor job of desensitizing me to death that I've been a vegan for my entire adult life.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:02 AM

159. Well, my fifth grade class in the 1950s

went to a slaughterhouse/meat packing plant on a field trip. In fourth grade, we went to a dairy. In third grade we went to a citrus packing facility, since we lived in a citrus growing community. It was for our education, so we'd know where our food came from. Odd, huh?

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Response to Samjm (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:46 AM

167. "one bad morning" I think I just threw up in mouth. heartless. n/t

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #167)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:36 PM

185. What? Animals don't die? You don't believe in the cycle of life?

 

Not sure what you're upset about.

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #167)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:55 PM

190. Yeah. Science sucks.

 

Screw those concepts like the circle of life and carnivores.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:45 PM

14. Did you think that thought out before you spewed it?

 

My niece went hunting with my brother at 10 and she is now in college not killing anyone.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:03 PM

43. My stepdad took me hunting when I was 7.

Child abuse my ass.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:31 PM

69. I think you're wrong.

Funny, but wrong.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:53 PM

120. You dodn't grow up on a farm, did you? n/t

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:20 AM

131. Some little girls are struck with awe over the beauty of deer

I certainly was, even though I was a tomboy. I cherished nature (still do) and don't quite get why it's so exhilarating for some people to blast a creature to smithereens.

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Response to ailsagirl (Reply #131)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:18 PM

201. If you are "blast(ing) a creature to smithereens" You are doing it wrong.....

 

as that would waste the meat.

What's wrong with taking pride in a skill and being able to provide food for your family?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:15 AM

160. It's important to pass on facts like, don't pop the bladder when gutting an animal

 

You don't want our meat to get all fucked up do you?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:02 PM

315. hmmm no, you live in a city, don't you?

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #315)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 07:19 PM

335. hmmmm, most people do. Or didn't you know that?

 

Welcome to America.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #335)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 07:23 PM

337. Yup, but some of us urban residents

 

even those who grew in one of the largest cities in the world, not the US, the WORLD, get why people actually hunt.

We call that TOLERANCE. You might try that.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #337)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 07:59 PM

338. Tolerance is a two-way street.

 

The gun nuts seem to be deficient in that trait, and the rest suffer because it it.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #338)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:09 PM

339. You are correct when it comes to nut jobs

 

Hunters have an issue with nut jobs too...which I am sure comes as a shock.

Serious, there s a difference between your every day hunter and your nut job.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #338)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:55 AM

347. Yet oddly, the "gun nuts" (yes, I know how you are applying the term)...

 

don't want to take anything away from you. You... seem to have gone down a different street.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #347)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:58 PM

372. No, they just want to make it easier to murder innocent people.

 

That's the REAL effect of the policies they advocate. And if that's too much of a blunt & ugly reality for them to face in a serious manner, perhaps they should re-think those policies.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #372)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:56 PM

384. And yet murder rates are going down...

 

and this has nothing to do with hunting.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #384)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

385. Keep posting those RW talking points.

 

Remember - repeating them often & as loudly as possible makes them true.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #385)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:14 PM

391. The FBI's UCR is a RW talking point?

 

Wow, who knew?
Is every pro gun post a RW, NRA talking point to you?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #385)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:27 PM

396. Feel free to post the stats that show murder rates trending upwards. We'll... wait. n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #396)


Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:32 PM

365. No

I am a female pushing 60 and my Dad taught me to shoot at a young age. I ended up as a nurse and now do wildlife rehab in retirement.
Good grief.
As an aside ...I also just finished processing a boar and a deer hubby got on opening of deer season with his bow. I like having a full freezer
of free range healthy meat.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:28 PM

4. So?

I don't see an issue here at all. There are many many many reasons to dislike Ryan, but this is not one of them.

But then, my 7 yr old daughter killed a wild hog on a trip to Florida last year, using a spear. We're a hunting family (and FIRMLY Democrat).

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Response to Samjm (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:33 PM

8. To allow your 7-year-old daughter to kill an animal is also a crime in my eyes. n/t

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:49 PM

84. Why?

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:55 PM

122. Do you harvet your meat yourself? Or collect it on plastic trays, neatly wrapped? n/t

 

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:42 AM

142. Why? Is allowing her to eat meat also a crime?

 

Either way an animal gets killed. At least the hunter kills the animal quickly after a life in the wild -- most kids are shovelling gobs of factory farm misery into their swollen bellies all day and never understanding what it is they're eating.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:07 AM

151. Better watch where you tread. There are DUers who have done the same

I learn to hunt at a very early age. Maybe I didn't learn to use a rifle and hunt until I was 11 but I've helped butcher a pig at age 8 and other hunter/farmer animal related things at an early age.

My parents were the most loving, kindest, gentle people who walked this earth. This is the culture of where I lived in rural Pennsylvania.

This may be offensive to you but it's offensive to judge others who come from very different background than yours.

Provided that his daughter received training and was taught to only kill what they play to use I have no issue with this. We have better things to attack Romney-Ryan with.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:12 PM

198. Then you need your eyes fixed. (nt)

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:25 PM

277. Fortunately it is not a crime in the eyes of the law

 

as that would be an insane crime.

/anything I find unsavory ought to be illegal. Like wearing crocs.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:12 PM

318. And... I don't hunt

 

but I know WHERE my food comes from. By the way, don't eat a burger, our industrial agriculture is far worst.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:57 AM

348. No answer? What a surprise... n/t

 

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Response to Samjm (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:45 AM

166. Never understood the appeal of KILLING a helpless animal for fun.

Seriously... never got that. HOW could it be FUN to cause the pain and fear and suffering of an animal that FEELS those things???? I don't care what political party someone is, killing an animal for FUN (i dont' care if you say you eat it later,) is wrong. Worse is having your children do it.

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #166)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:31 PM

173. But paying some immigrant to do it at the slaughterhouse is just fine?

Reality bites.

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Response to Samjm (Reply #4)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:51 PM

285. I've got to ask.

How did you allow your 7 year old daughter to get close enough to a wild hog to kill it with a spear without putting HER in danger? Was the hog already disabled in some way? Penned?

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #285)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 09:19 PM

408. Sorry!

Didn't see your question, so I apologize for not replying sooner.

The hunting guide was right there, the tracking dogs helped keep the animal at bay, my husband was right there (with a gun to kill it with if necessary), the guide and my husband were both helping to restrain it, my daughter was wearing protective clothing, and she trained for a year to be both psychologically and physically ready to do it.

She also took a sow, not a boar and they are slightly less aggressive and also don't have the huge tusks the boars do (they taste better too).

(And before anyone freaks out about how unfair this was to the sow - remember these animals are a pest. They are destroying crops, wildlife, habitats. They eat anything they can. They breed like rabbits and they have NO natural predators. They do half a billion dollars in damage a year just in TX, and they destroy endangered sea turtle habitats as well as eating the eggs and babies. It was the introduction of pigs to an ecosystem that wiped out the dodo).

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:32 PM

5. I hate hunting, and to indoctrinate a 10-year-child

into killing animals is a crime in my eyes.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:33 PM

9. ?

Do you eat meat? If you do then you're a hypocrite.

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Response to Samjm (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:33 PM

10. No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian. n/t

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:47 PM

15. So don't teach your kids to hunt then

 

but you don't have a right to judge others that do.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:50 PM

30. Do you wear leather shoes? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:24 PM

102. I would really like an answer to this...

 

Leather in the car?

Any medicine that has been tested on animals?

Beauty products?

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #102)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:02 PM

251. I maybe only leather from cows that died of natural causes.

That would still be nonhypocritical, right?

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:00 PM

37. Well good for you

 

so what? If Ryan wants to let his daughter hunt, does that make him a bad father? Does that make every father, R or D, bad fathers for teaching their kids to hunt?

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:20 PM

111. How do you justify killing all of those poor, defenseless plants that never harmed you, or anyone..

... else, for that matter?? Ripping all those fruits and vegetables away from the safe, loving arms of their mothers, who raised them from a seedling or flower on their own bodies, nurtured them, and held them safe?

I've never seen a car totaled, and the driver killed, because of a tomato plant, or apple tree, running out in front of them as they're cruising along at 70mph down the interstate, but have heard of plenty of those cases involving deer.

Those poor, poor innocent plants you slaughter to feed yourself... the thought of it just makes me weep for the inhumanity...

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:31 PM

237. lots of animals

killed producing fruits and vegs - like a grain harvester, it doesn,t stop for groundhogs or moles or fawns frogs and snakes etc. on the way to making bread we buy at store

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Response to d_r (Reply #237)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 03:31 AM

401. Oh, I know all about that!

I worked in the fields, and packing houses, in Homestead and Florida City, Fla. for several years. They had the HUGE automatic bean picking machines that looked like this:



They would dump them into dump trucks, then bring them to the packing house to be run through the grading line, then boxed, hydro-cooled and sold. I can't tell you the number of times the lines had to be shut down because of a live snake being on the line... or to clean up the remains of rabbits, quail, fawns and even the occasional gator that got caught in the swath of the harvester. They also had similar machines for corn and potatoes.

I don't think some vegetarians have any clue as to just how many animals are killed or maimed during the harvesting of their precious vegetables!

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:24 AM

162. Your Farm is Cute

 

LOL

&feature=plcp


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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:52 PM

31. So what?

 

who cares if it's a crime in your eyes? The law, which is all that counts, says it is legal period. My dad taught us kids to hunt by the time we were 8 yo, I taught my kids hunting at 8 yo and they all turned out good.
There are a lot of reasons to slam Ryan on, this isn't one of them.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:15 PM

117. UNless, of course he plans on having his daughter wear that camo when hunting deer during gun season

Gotta wear blaze orange during gun season.

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Response to TheMightyFavog (Reply #117)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:04 PM

252. Don't molly coddle those kids. Orange hunting jackets make your kids soft and weak.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:00 PM

38. +1000 nt

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:02 PM

42. +1000

 

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:31 PM

70. Name the crime.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #70)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:27 PM

278. Willful disregard for delicate sensibilties

 

contributing to the clutching of several pearls.

Aggravated feelings-assault.

All punishable but up to (but not exceeding) 3 frowning faces. Possibly you could argue it down to a disappointed head shake and sigh.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:32 PM

7. I have a question about the "gun culture," for lack of a better way to phrase it...

I know someone whose daughter (age 17) posed with a GLOCK for her SENIOR PICTURE portfolio!!!

WTF kind of photography studio does that, is my first question...especially with a minor.

I could even see if it had been a hunting rifle; kids pose with sports equipment, musical equipment, etc. If hunting expresses who she is, that would make more sense to me, though I still think it's in really poor taste.

But to pose with a Glock, in MANY shots -- like 1/3 of the photos -- what does that say?

They told me it's the "new thing" in SW PA, that studios advertise it and lots of kids are doing it.

Really? Have you heard of such a thing being a trend?



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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:11 PM

19. Nothing wrong with it if it is done safely.

Many schools have rules about what props are allowed in the yearbook photos, but other than that....

How does posing with a handgun differ from posing with a rifle? Some kids are good at IPSC-type competitions.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:18 PM

23. It's largely my ignorance, I suppose...

I understand hunting as a sport and why someone would pose wearing hunting gear and even with a rifle.

She isn't part of competitions of any sort concerning guns or weaponry.

I don't know. I can't articulate it but it just seems like a really odd choice of a prop to express oneself in a senior pic, in my opinion.

Let's put it this way: If a young black man posed with a Glock, she and her family would call him a thug and be appalled.

I don't know why it's different when she does it, wearing camo gear, standing next to the American flag with a thuggish expression.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:02 AM

124. Much probably depends on the method of pose.

 

If she (or your hypothetical "young black man" were neatly dressed, not aiming the pistol at another person, finger off trigger, with lawful and safe adutl supervision off-camera, no problem.

Hold the gun sideways, dressed in gang colors/styles, flashing signs, pointing the gun at someone.... yeah, huge flaming problem, no matter what your gender, race, ethnicity or economic status.

P.S. What's a "thuggish expression", and can you cite to it?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #124)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:53 AM

134. I avoid gun threads because I have ZERO desire to debate guns (edited)

Last edited Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:04 AM - Edit history (1)

but this senior pic issue has bothered me for the last few weeks, and this thread seemed like a place I could pose the question to others, to get their thoughts, including from gun enthusiasts.

I'm not a fan of guns; not a fan of hunting. However, I respect others' rights and that their interests are different than mine.

That said, for someone like me who isn't "into" guns in any way and admittedly ignorant about the topic, there is definitely a perceived difference between a hunting rifle and a Glock.

I never knew about competitions that make use of Glocks but, as mentioned, that isn't even an issue as it concerns this young lady. She doesn't participate in contests or official events of any type.

So, the difference in my mind is what is the message she wants to send in taking such a picture?

A hunting rifle and hunting gear would express that she likes to hunt. Okay.

I still don't get what she is trying to express with a Glock.

This is a Glenn Beck-lovin', racist, bigoted redneck family and this young lady is the same.

The expression and pose I mentioned included a "make my day" type of expression; there are also poses with her lovingly caressing the gun.

I have no doubt whatsoever that, regardless of what a young black or Hispanic man (or young black or Hispanic woman) would be wearing or their expression or how they held the gun, this family would view them as criminal thugs asking for trouble.

No doubt whatsoever.

This young lady happens to be my niece, so it bothers me. A lot.

I don't believe the claim that it is a "thing" that a lot of kids are doing, so I posted here to see if others had heard of such a trend.

And I simply still don't get what she is wanting to express to others with this choice. She has other pics with sports equipment. That I get. The Glock I don't.

It's not just this incident, even though this takes it to a new level. I don't understand the desire to glorify guns in any way, posing with them. I understand pics taken at a shooting range (action shot), I get pics taken as part of a competition or when out hunting.

I don't get people at home posing with their guns. I liken it to people taking pics with a prized car or other prized possession, but this is a prized possession that was created for the express purpose of harming others, even if that harm comes in the process of protecting oneself. It creeps me out when its glorified. I have respect for guns and the right for others to own them and even collect them (to a limited degree); it just really bothers me when the same respect doesn't seem to be shown when people glorify it or even trivialize it.

That's the word...some people seem to trivialize guns the way they so carelessly pose with them in an attempt to make themselves look tough.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #134)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 05:26 AM

137. I think it is appalling and you are right to be concerned.

Handguns have one purpose...to kill people. Period. Glorifying that is gross and bizarre.

I sometimes wonder if the fascination with guns in this country reflects some kind of inner acknowledgement of our impotence. I don't mean impotence like 'he has a big gun because he has a tiny dick' impotence. I mean like, what kind of grades did your niece get and where is she going to college and does she have a future that she feels in control of? It seems to me that the people most fascinated with guns might be the people who feel the least in control of their own lives.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #137)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 05:42 AM

138. GREAT question!

She really doesn't fall into that "at risk" category at all, not on the surface, at least (other than being a Beck/Limbaugh follower, that is).

She is very popular, active in sports, VERY good in school. She has so much going for her.

My hope is that when she goes to college, she'll broaden her horizons and evolve from the racist, bigoted mindset she's been immersed in her entire life thus far.

Maybe this was a way to please her father and to seem cool, though he adores her and she surely didn't need to do anything with guns for him to be pleased with her, and she knows that. Her poses with NASCAR stuff would have been plenty to please him; she didn't need to throw in a Glock. He denies that it was his idea at all and seemed a little surprised.

That's what made me wonder: Maybe this is some kind of weird trend for certain areas (this is Southwest PA...not very diverse at all). I've researched but can't find studios advertising such a thing, nor could I find other senior pics using guns in poses other than one funny one. Hers isn't meant to be funny at all. It's not tongue-in-cheek.



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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #138)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:43 AM

143. I live in South Carolina. We INVENTED rednecks and I haven't seen any class pictures

taken with guns. Not even boys.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #138)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:17 PM

200. Out of curiosity, did she do any competition shooting?

Might explain the picture a bit more. Also, I hope you don't believe the "handguns are only made to kill people" bullshit that the poster you were replying to was spewing. Because it literally is that, bullshit. Hyperbolic bullshit designed to derail any rational discussion on the issue of firearms.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #200)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:22 PM

203. No, no competitions at all.

I honestly didn't know handguns are used in a competitive sport situation but, no, she's never done that nor expressed an interest, as far as I know.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #203)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:46 PM

224. Olympics (they don't use GLOCKs, but much more expensive/specialized guns), IPSC, USPSA, IDPA...

 

ISSF, CISM...
Oh heck, there's to many to type them all out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport

And then there's the simple fun of merely going to a target range and putting holes in paper, tin cans, bottles or plinking metal targets.

None of which has to be in evidence for any kind of photo. Sometimes "I wanted to." is all the justification anyone needs for doing something that hurts no-one.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #137)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:54 PM

177. "Handguns have one purpose...to kill people. Period."

 

Utterly false, of course, but I'm sure that:

A. You already know that.

and

B. Don't give a fig about the widely available evidence that disproves your wildly inaccurate claim.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #137)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:53 PM

305. huh?

 

If that's true, wizard of smart...

then why are soldiers equipped with rifles?




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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #134)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:52 PM

176. "This young lady happens to be my niece, so it bothers me. A lot."

 

O.K., I presume you would know the facts behind your assertions then.

This is a Glenn Beck-lovin', racist, bigoted redneck family and this young lady is the same.


As for this:
I still don't get what she is trying to express with a Glock.

Ummm... have you asked?

And this:
I don't understand the desire to glorify guns in any way, posing with them.

...does not seem to be an assertion you can correctly make without more facts than you've presented here. Merely having one's picture taken with an inanimate object is not evidence of "glorification" or "trivialization". If I have my picture taken with my car, or motorcycle, or bicycles, or camping gear, I'm not trying to "glorify" any of those objects, merely depict a part of my life, one of my many hobbies/interests/activities.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #176)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:42 PM

187. 1. Yes, I do know the facts behind my assertions.


2. Yes, I have asked, and I was told "everyone's doing it. It's a trend." I was told that by both my niece and her parents, and I think they're full of shit, as I've tried to find evidence of this so-called trend of kids having pictures taken with guns.


3. Perhaps "glorification" and "trivialization" are not appropriate or accurate. Honestly, from my perspective they are based on the types of pics I've seen posted by family and friends at FB, for example, in which they pose with guns in their living rooms.

I'm not posting pictures for obvious reasons. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, so I'm not sure why you're approaching this interaction by requesting more "facts" and "evidence."

I've already said we have differing viewpoints about this topic.

I still say that I'm simply puzzled and disturbed that she chose to use a Glock as a prop depicting a significant aspect of her life.

It's my opinion.



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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:21 PM

101. "Safely" is not the issue here

The issue is the gun culture insanity.

WHY do kids need guns SO much that they need to have them in their yearbook photos?

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Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #101)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:20 PM

202. Plenty of kids shoot in compitition.

I'm not saying that is the case here, but that is one reason why I can see a kid wanting to have one in their yearbook photo, akin to baseball player having a baseball bat in their photo.

People on the left really need to lose this knee-jerk reaction to anything and everything that deals with firearms. Perhaps if you tried to understand the people who do own and enjoy shooting firearms instead of calling them insane you might learn a bit of something.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:57 PM

123. You do know that GLOCK pistols are used in many flavors of competitive shooting, right?

 

And they are also useful for defensive purposes.

What makes a "hunting rifle" any more legitimate than a handgun?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #123)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:28 PM

341. It bothers me that it was a Glock. A nice all American 1911a1 would have been nicer.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:04 PM

273. ok

My oldest sister was a member of a 4 member small bore rifle team that won our states indoor 50 foot Jr. championship in the early 1970s. Two of the other team members were in her high school class, the fourth went to another HS. Both of those high schools yearbooks had photographs of that 4 member team, shown with all of the gear.

The very next year, my brother and I and two others, both from different High Schools (entering as Freshman), won our state indoor sub-Jr. 50 foot team championship. Two of the three schools had yearbook photos of us with our gear. That same year I was selected "News carrier of the Month" I had a paper route, and the picture of me in the Asbury Park Press had me with my Anschutz Match 64 and misc. tackle and a rather large grin on my face. Yes, this was in New Jersey even back then one difficult state to be a gun owner in.

I have in my collection a Marlin (Sears Ranger) bolt action rimfire that my Dad bought from Sears through the mail when he was 11 years old, this was in the late 1930s. Mailman delivered it right to the house. My Dad used that gun to teach literally 100s of kids firearms safety and through his efforts running the Jr rifle club there were 6 students that received full college scholarships and 1 a West Point assignment. That gun, I have it on the wall in my house has the rifling worn off completely. I don't think it is too far fetched to say it would take a half a million rounds to shoot the rifling out of a rifle barrel.

When a kid in our town or surrounding town wanted to learn how to shoot a gun, the parents usually somehow dug up my dad's name, either from the Police Chief or the local sporting goods stores or a newspaper article and next thing they knew they were on the firing line. This was what we did growing up. Firday nights, off to the range with a car load, usually several cars full of kids off for a night of shooting. Never did we view this as unusual and my kids, both in college today have years of firearms experience.

To my knowledge, not one kid that handled that Marlin over the years has been involved in any firearms related crime.

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Response to sweetapogee (Reply #273)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:08 PM

274. Thanks, sweetapogee, but if you'll read the comments above...

between yours and my initial comment, to which you replied, you'll see a lot more information.

I would actually understand posing with a gun in the circumstances you describe. There is no competition involved in this situation, no official anything as it concerns firearms and this young lady.

I'm not necessarily concerned about firearm-related crime. My point in posting was to see if others had heard of this as a recent trend, as I was told it was, and also expressing my confusion as to what she is trying to express with incorporating a Glock into her poses for a senior pic.

Again, she has not expressed any interest in competition or approaching using firearms from a sports-related perspective.

As I also said above, I would understand if she had chosen to pose with a hunting rifle and wore hunting gear.

To my knowledge, people don't hunt animals with a Glock.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.



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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #274)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:35 PM

282. If

I wanted to hunt and all I had was a Glock, I would hunt with a Glock.

Seriously though, the only thing that scares me about firearms are those hands that handle them without knowledge, safety or respect. I have a fairly large and diverse (from a firearms perspective) collection which includes a few pistols, a number of high power longarms and a Glock 17. I think it's awesome that this student had her photo with her handgun in her yearbook. I know many people who are well behaved and shoot firearms on a regular basis.

If someone doesn't care for firearms that is their business but the misinformation about them is so rampant. As a kid, I got picked on all the time at school but I never thought about solving my problems with a gun. In my opinion, the reason there are so many shootings has to do with the instant fame that come with it not a "love of the gun". An individual who really loves guns will not use them to harm others except in defense.

Hate any puke for their political views, fine with me, but not for teaching their kids firearms safety at a young age. On my 9th birthday, I will never forget it, my dad took me shooting for the first time. That was 1967, been shooting ever since.

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Response to sweetapogee (Reply #282)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:47 PM

284. I respect your opinion.

I had no intention of disparaging guns or gun owners here. I am very much in agreement with teaching firearm safety, and I would never criticize anyone for doing that.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:29 PM

280. I'm sure there are more teens pictured posing by cars or swimming pools

 

either one of which is a far greater threat to their lives than a gun (just going by stats).

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:34 PM

11. what a man!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:44 PM

12. He's an asshole for sure but I don't fault him for this

I went deer hunting for the first time with my father and uncle when I was 8 years old. I'm sure that all I did was get in their way but I remember it as a positive experience.

If he wants to take his daughter hunting and she actually wants to go (instead of feeling forced into it) then I can't see what's wrong with it.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:09 PM

17. Same here

As a kid, my mother and I grew, caught and killed the vast majority of what we ate.

I no longer hunt because I don't need to do it to survive, but I certainly have no problem with Ryan taking his daughter into the field.

That being said, he is still a fuckstick.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:41 PM

28. Yep. I could argue that a little girl doesn't need that much gear to hunt.

But, I remember being a 10 year old girl. Dressing the part was the most fun of anything

And I say this as a 20+ year vegetarian (who also happens to have a family of sportsmen)

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Response to tularetom (Reply #12)


Response to tularetom (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:40 PM

186. I actually give him credit for taking his daughter.

One of my most vivid childhood memories is going camping with my family and some other families my dad worked with and all the boys getting to go fishing while I was stuck with nothing to do. At least he's not excluding his daughter on the grounds that hunting is a men's only club.

That being said, he's still a miserable human being who would make a terrible vice-president.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:06 PM

16. i am not a hunter, but this isnt a negative for ryan

 

Not politically, at least.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:10 PM

18. Who fucking cares?

 

This is some petty BS right here.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:13 PM

20. Must be a slow news day in Ohio.

There is certainly nothing wrong with spending time with your kids out hunting.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:13 PM

21. You don't get the gun until age 11 in my family -

- The hunting rifle was given to my uncle at age 11 ca 1927. He handed it to my Dad at age 11. Down the line it has come, handed over to every boy at age 11. It's too much of an antique to shoot now, we just care for it as a family heirloom. But, it has put dinner on the table for several generations of my family.

I have no problem with taking daughters to hunt at age 10. My father took me hunting about that age. I also have no problem with the daughters and sons at that age learning how to dress the kill and cook it. It's all part of the hunting-to-table process. I'd much rather my children know where their food comes from and how it gets to the table instead of shielding them from it. And my children - and grandchildren - do know.

Lot's of reasons to bitch about Ryan. This isn't one of them.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:16 PM

22. I've never hunted, but this certainly won't hurt him in rural Ohio

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:18 PM

24. He's just pandering.

 

A rich asshole like him doesn't need to hunt. He's just showing out for the rednecks.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:05 AM

125. Hunting has little to do with economic status.

 

Why should it? Is it more "civilized" to eat meat that arrives magically in the store on plastic trays?

If so, does this mean that poor people who hunt because they "need" to are less civilized than those who can afford not to?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:25 PM

25. Yeah, so what?

 

I don't hunt, never have, but for some it's part of their culture.

While I've never hunted I had a rifle at 10 years old (.22) and loved shooting bottles and cans with it. Of course I was always supervised, just like his daughter will be.

Of ALL the damn issues to attack Ryan and this one is ruffling feathers.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:31 PM

26. Camouflage for hunting deer? How about some hunter orange?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:33 PM

27. Hey guess what, I too, hunt, fish shoot for sport and drive a pickup truck...

I am also active in voter registration, housing as a human right, arrested recently for both Occupy and hydraulic hydrofracturing protests.

In other words, this is a non-issue.

People hunt, fish and shoot for sport.

Get over it.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:49 PM

29. I don't hunt, fish, shoot for sport or any other reason ...

(drive a Ford Focus/love the gas mileage)

AND

agree with you completely!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:54 PM

32. I know nothing about hunting but certainly support the right of people to hunt if they want to.

It just seems to me that 10 years old is a little young for a child to be using a real gun. I would be a little worried about the safety aspect. I guess it partly depends upon the maturity of the child.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #32)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:21 AM

154. Families who embrace hunting..........

.....or target shooting as a sport usually introduce their children to it much younger than 10. I knew from a very young age that guns are not toys, and that I wasn't to touch them without permission and with an adult present.

My dad taught me to safely handle a gun, and to target shoot (handguns & rifles), when I was 8. He would have taken me hunting at 10, but I declined. I loved target shooting, but shooting an animal was another story -- I didn't have the stomach for it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:55 PM

33. Advice. Don't bring dead Bambi home to your daughters

They will not like seeing that. Even after having it all dressed and cut by a butcher, they won't eat it. Oh, I remember that very well. NONE of us would eat it. Besides my daughters, all I could see in my mind was that bloody mess. It SMELLED to high hell being cooked. Husband had to take the meat back to the butcher to sell it. When he tried to take them shooting with him years later, they cried and screamed, BAMBI at him.

Personally, I am not crazy about meat to begin with. A nice crunchy salad tastes better to me than a steak. The only way I can eat steak, or other meat, is to disguise the taste of the meat with sauces and spices. Plain meat is gross. If I had to shoot animals for food, I could very, very easily become a vegetarian.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #33)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:32 PM

71. Your daughters had a problem with it. My daughter didn't.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #71)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:35 PM

74. Neither did mine

 

my daughters still hunt to this day, and they enjoy the meat they hunt.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #33)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:07 AM

126. Your squeemishness is not the benchmark. n/t

 

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #33)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:49 AM

144. When I was a child there were several occasions

 

when we dressed out small antelope on the kitchen floor because it was windy and miserably cold outside (southwestern Wyoming sucks when the wind gets going.) Neither my little sister nor myself found it terribly pleasant, I suppose, but we ate it because we were poor as fuck and hungry as hell.

As an adult I've been a vegan for 25 years; I think seeing the reality of meat as a wee one is the reason I could never eat it now; I am glad that I got to experience hunting and butchery when small rather than being insulated from it like most kids.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #144)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:25 AM

266. I am not sure why people think it is a "crime" or "abuse"...

 

to subject children to the reality of where their food(meat) comes from. I think that those exposed to it have a better understanding of what is on the shelf at stores and how it gets there. Also allows for them to make more informed choices with respect to their own eating habits.

I was exposed to the methods of how meat got to my table at a young age. While I am not a vegetarian or vegan, I have a great amount of respect for nature and fully understand the way many animals are currently slaughtered is appalling. Most knowledgeable hunters actually kill in a more humane way than slaughterhouses.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #33)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:50 AM

265. Not a luxury I had growing up.

My dad shot deer, we ate deer. If mom had encouraged us to think it smelled and was nasty and Bambi, we wouldn't have had dinner. Simple.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:56 PM

34. This is one of the stupidest reasons to attack Ryan

 

there are a whole bunch of reasons to attack him, but this is not one of them.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:06 PM

47. Speak for yourself.

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:12 PM

55. I'm speaking with the majority of people posting on this thread.

 

What is the problem with him taking his daughter hunting? She seems to enjoy it and as long as she's not being force to, it's none of our business how he raises his children.
I taught my kids how to hunt at a young age, does that make me a bad father, how about all the Dems who do the same thing, are they all bad parents?

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:00 AM

148. He can speak for me, too.

I have never shot a gun in my life and neither have my kids. My husband hunted as a kid, but doesn't any more. I *think* we still have an old rifle broken down in a closet somewhere, but I couldn't swear to it.

But I recognize that is a personal choice. Hunting isn't illegal or immoral. I couldn't shoot something. But living in an area where the deer are reaching pest status, I sometimes think we need MORE hunters, not less. During this time of year a day doesn't go by that we don't see a deer dead on the side of the road.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:58 PM

35. And we wonder why we're losing the white working class vote.

News flash life exists outside of cities, and life exists outside of the coasts. That meat you buy at the supermarket? It was an animal once, those shoes you're wearing? They were an animal once. People hunt, fish, camp, etc deal with it. The majority of this country isn't living some cosmopolitan life style discussing liberal politics over wine in their condos. Some of us on the left go into the woods, hunt, get dirty at our jobs and drive pickups. Nothing more aggravating than hearing people degrade my way of life and then ask why people like me "vote against our own interest", of course I know better but you can't expect people to be on your side politically when you do nothing but insult them.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:02 PM

40. Wasn't aware we're losing the white working class vote.

Can you cite a reputable source for that claim?

Thanks.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #40)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:05 PM

46. You don't have access to Google?

In mid-August, Governor Mitt Romney held a double-digit advantage over President Barack Obama among white working-class voters (48% vs. 35%), while white college-educated voters were nearly evenly divided in their voting preferences (44% supporting Romney vs. 42% supporting Obama). However, white working-class voters are not monolithic and their preferences varied substantially by region, religious affiliation, and gender.


http://publicreligion.org/research/2012/09/race-class-culture-survey-2012/



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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:22 PM

63. You forgot to paste in the rest of it. We're far from losing the white middle-class.

In mid-August, Romney held a commanding 40-point lead over Obama among white working-class voters in the South (62% vs. 22%). However, neither candidate held a statistically significant lead among white working-class voters in the West (46% Romney vs. 41% Obama), Northeast (42% Romney vs. 38% Obama), or the Midwest (36% Romney vs. 44% Obama).

That was in mid-August. I suspect the polls are much closer now. Even in spite of this hunting straw man of yours.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #63)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:03 PM

192. Squabble about the numbers, but the point still stands

 

I live in the middle of the US. I assure you, my life is VERY different from those in the "big cities" on the coasts. Different, not wrong. Some people don't just swing by their local Trader Joe's for some meat after having some wine at the Jazz concert in the park. Insulting people because they life a perfectly normal life that just happens to be different from your own is both ignorant and arrogant.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #192)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:37 PM

323. Actually most folks don't do that

 

at the coasts either.



And I got a pickup truck and I live at the coast, and damn that thing went off road oh... Sunday, and Tuesday...

We were covering a damn local fire. People died...

You know what they say about generalizations, right?

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:02 PM

41. Bravo, sir/m'am...

Bravo.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:25 PM

204. Well said! (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)


Response to Raine (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:03 PM

44. ICAM.

 

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Response to Raine (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:08 PM

51. Well good for you

 

but so what? I have no problem with him teaching his daughter to hunt and giving her a rifle to hunt with. There are a lot of things to slam him over, this ain't one of them.

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Response to Raine (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:10 PM

54. Congrats.

I can tell you're very proud of yourself.

I hope this picture doesn't make you cry.




Those poor innocent fish, our President must be some kind of monster. = (

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:36 PM

238. I gave my 5 year old daughter a fishing pole

the one she got when she was 4 was worn out

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Response to Raine (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:24 PM

64. LOL! Yet they both eat meat but you're right - a commercial slaughter house isn't sport -

- as the animal doesn't have a sporting chance, for sure. Interesting that you would consider eating commercially raised and slaughtered meat superior to hunting and eating animals. I'd much prefer the meat from the hunt as the animal would have had a far better life than a commercial raised animal.

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Response to Raine (Reply #36)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:52 AM

145. But neither President Obama nor the First Lady are vegetarian or vegan,

 

so the very best one could say about them on this issue is that they like to eat meat whilst having others deal with the blood. I'm not sure how that's particularly laudatory, but whatever floats your ethical boat.

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Response to Raine (Reply #36)


Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:01 PM

39. Oh great, another Ryan thread that degenerates into bashing hunters.

My stepdad took my niece out hunting when she was 8.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:03 PM

45. Why...you bloodlusting GOP super PAC bundling Republican sympathizer, you!

As if it's needed:

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:33 PM

72. Just in time for grouse season!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:07 PM

48. My father was a gun nut (and still is)

When I turned 18 I got my carry-conceal pistol permit for NY and that christmas, my parents bought me a Glock model 30. I used to do a lot of shooting.

In fact, the gun issue is the only republican belief I still hold on to. No, I don't think I have any business owning an RPG or a flame thrower, but I should be allowed to protect myself. Even though I have a carry conceal permit, I rarely carry a pistol with me. I figure if I think I need to carry a pistol with me for my protection, then I probably shouldn't be going/doing that anyways. The only exception is when I go out on hikes.

I don't get the hunting thing, but it is a way of life for a lot of people. I grew up around guns and even received a .22 for a present from my uncle when I was 8. My brother, myself, and all of the neighborhood kids used to ride around our neighborhood with our BB guns when I was a kid. Gun safety was pounded into our heads from a very young age.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #48)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:26 PM

65. the gun issue is the only republican belief I still hold on to

 

Nope you are wrong the gun issue 2A is also a Liberal belief. There are millions of us Liberals that believe in the Bill of Rights. repubs are wrong as usual we are not going to take their guns away we have our own.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #65)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:50 PM

86. I stand corrected on that point n/t

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Response to Berserker (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:02 AM

149. Guns aren't a 'Republican issue'. There are 88 guns in this country for every 100

Americans.

Guns are pretty much an American issue.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:31 PM

207. Well said.

It'd be better to say that the 2A issue is a liberal belief that the republicans hold on to (and that some democrats need to get their crap together on).

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:07 PM

49. Oh, DU, please let me say it. Please let me say it. Please, please, please!

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Response to valerief (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:10 PM

52. Oh alright. Go ahead.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #52)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:19 PM

62. No, if I say it, my post will just get hidden. I have one hidden post

already, and it was for pretty much the same thing as I want to say now. That post was about shooting the right people. Of course, I wouldn't think of saying anything like that now, because I've learned nothing gets fixed from violins. Cellos, yes, but not violins.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:08 PM

50. Oh, that is it!

Now I'm for sure not voting for that dude!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:10 PM

53. Okay, I grew up on a farm and learned to hunt at a very young age. Probably younger than 10.

 

My father had a very strict rule though. If you shot and killed an animal you were going to dress and eat it. There was no such thing as "sport" hunting. One never killed for fun or to take a "trophy." We never had deer heads or antlers on our walls.

So if Ryan is teaching his daughter similar values I have no problem with them hunting.

Yep, I try to be objective despite how much I dislike Romney and Ryan.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:12 PM

56. So? n/t

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:13 PM

57. All the hunting advocates in this thread

When animals are lured into position and blindsided by opponents with lethal weapons, or released with no possible escape for the sole purpose of the thrill of the kill, then I say no, HELL NO, will I ever be okay with that. I won't be okay with it regardless of the age, sex, religion or any other demographic of the so-called "hunter."

When animals are given the same advantages, or even a fighting chance, then I will change my opinion. And before you ask, I do not eat animals, use any part of their bodies for clothing, shoes, car seats, cheap trinkets from China or anything else. I am not arrogant enough to think that my needs/wants are more important than the life of a sentient being.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:15 PM

58. Good job.

Here's a vegan cookie.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:27 PM

66. Hey thanks.

One hell of a retort, I tell ya.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:32 PM

208. Perhaps if you produce something worthy of a serious retort...

...you'll get one.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:18 PM

60. Animals eat

 

other animals and always will deal with it.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #60)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:30 PM

68. Uh huh.

Another quality response from a self-described animal. Thanks!

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:19 PM

61. So what?

 

Are we all supposed to have your point of view? No one here is saying anything about trophy hunting, I hunt because I like the taste of venison, and game birds.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:40 PM

75. Animals are "given" plenty of advantages. Their main disadvantage is that they're not human.

And some animals are just dumb. The grouse we hunt are dumber than posts. Nature tells them that if they sit very still, they won't be seen. Unfortunately, humans have evolved in such a way that they have brains and can look for grouse in places they're likely to be. Our eyes have evolved in such a way that we can spot grouse even when they're not moving. The grouse have their strengths -- they wait to break cover, and they *can* stay very still -- but to try to make it "sporting" is just silly.

Hunting deer, same thing. On my land, they travel the same trails almost every day. I don't bait, I don't plant to lure. I run dogs on the trails every day, and still the deer come back. There are wolves and trucks and trains all around me. Still, we're overpopulated with deer. They have more than a fighting chance. They're doing better than fine. To take some every year helps us both. In my opinion, you not "being okay with that" is a puzzle.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #75)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:12 PM

232. Deer overpopulation is a big problem

and while I am not a hunter, for the most part I have no problem with hunting. I say for the most part because I am against the whole trophy hunting thing.

But I would still rather have a deer killed with a well aimed bullet that ended the suffering quickly than to be side swipped by a car and suffer with an injury or die a slow death due to starvation because of overpopulation.

I am trying to be a vegetarian (99% of my diet is meat free) and a big part of that decision is the condition of how animals are treated in feed lots and commercial farms. The cruelty of a lifetime of being forced in a cage or overcrowded up to their knees in their own feces, force fed corn meal that is not normally their diet - that to me is worse than an animal who has lived most of its life free and wild until one brief moment when it is killed by a skilled hunter.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:07 PM

95. Attitudes like yours is why working class white people vote R.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #95)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:10 PM

98. Absolutely correct

 

I honestly can't see why people are so vehement about this? IMHO, this is a good bonding experience, I know it was for me and my kids, including my daughters.
Slam him for his politics, not this,

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #98)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:21 PM

100. Also, it's extremely pantronizing to remaining traditional societies that...

...engage in hunting. Also, a lot of poor people hunt for the meat.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #100)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:32 PM

103. When I was growing up in MO.

 

my family was dirt poor and we hunted to keep meat on the table, we also grew our own fruits and veggies. I can afford to buy my food from the store now, but I still prefer the meat I hunt and the food I grow, it just tastes better.
I just don't see why this is an issue for some of the people here. I guess it's a regional thing.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #103)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:34 PM

114. City people who think of Bambi when they hear the word "deer".

I would not be surprised if they think chocolate milk comes from brown cows.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #114)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:00 AM

158. To quote my Democratic, Union-Member, Veteran Uncle...

"How did the Democrats ever get on the wrong side of this issue?"

I come from rural stock, where hunting and respect for the land is considered a family value. There is no friggin' way that rural, working class voters should EVER be voting for the corporatist scum that run the modern GOP. Yet we allow issues like guns to divide us, and it never should.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #158)


Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #158)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:06 AM

260. We got on the wrong side in 1972 when the upper-middle class too over the party.

I see I direct connection to the Upper-Middle class takeover of the Democratic Party in the 70s and the "Reagan Democrats" and the rise of the DLC in the 80s. The working class has been forgotten, or even thought of negatively and insulted.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #114)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:21 AM

161. I think about canned hunts when I hear the word deer.

 

"City people who think of Bambi when they hear the word "deer"."

I think about canned hunts when I hear the word deer. Not really too much of an ethical difference between canned hunts and hunting-- other than one is a more efficient way of guaranteeing oneself entertainment.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #161)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:01 AM

259. Most hunters despise canned hunts.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #259)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:42 AM

263. ALL "real" hunters despise canned hunts.

Part of the hunt is the understanding that you might come away with nothing.

I would not participate in a hunt that guaranteed my success. I might as well sit at home and play 'Cabela's Big Game Hunt" on the Wii.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #95)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:37 PM

105. Oh yes, it's the ever-integral hunting faction that will determine our fate.

Not by a long shot, but go with it if it feels good.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #105)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:40 PM

106. And just keep bashing millions of Dem hunters that do vote.

 

But go with it if it feels good.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #106)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:02 PM

116. Your concern is duly noted.

Yawn.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #116)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:08 PM

196. As is your arrogance.

 

Yawn

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #196)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:34 PM

209. Here here!

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:32 PM

104. Make sure you don't use any of the medical advancements derived from animal research...

 

... to include:

Penicillin
Blood transfusion
Tuberculosis
Macular degeneration
Asthma
Meningitis
Kidney Transplants
Breast cancer
Parkinson’s disease
Insulin

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #104)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:28 PM

112. Or plastic bags. Or car and bike tires. Or glue. Or fabric softener.

 

Best not to go see a firework show either. THAT would be the worst use... using animal products for your personal entertainment.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:13 AM

127. So glad to know you can divine the thoughts, intents, emotions and wants of all hunters.

 

Perhaps you can cite to your supporting evidence? For those of us who can't read their minds?

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:11 AM

153. No one has issues with your opinion. Just respect others

That's all

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:38 AM

163. You have to change your opinion...

 

Ever see a wild boar taken down by just hands and a knife?

I think knife vs. tusks are a fair fight. Do a youtube search, wild boar hands....

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:04 PM

193. Yeah. Fuck science.

 

We were never supposed to be hunters or eat meat, huh?

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Response to Doremus (Reply #57)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:34 PM

322. So what do you tell

 

to my back country denizens who would love to get a turkey for Thanksgiving, problem is that they will have to go track it themselves, and hunt it.

You know, in poor areas of the country hunting is a way to put meat on the table.

It is not just about "sports hunting."

And in places like the reservations, we have a few, it is also a rite of passage.

You know there are many things to be critical of Ryan, but hunting ain't one of them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #322)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:40 PM

357. What would I tell them?

I'd invite them over for a delicious lunch of lentil salad wraps with baked sweet potato fries and explain to them that the human body does quite nicely without animal protein (much better in fact), and then offer to lend them my copies of Forks Over Knives, the China Study and The Starch Solution for further learning.

In the spring I'd research the existence of any community gardens in the area, and if none exist, find out how to start one and offer to help in any way I could.

Aren't you glad you asked?

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Response to Doremus (Reply #357)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:01 PM

358. Alas we are omnivores

 

we can indeed eat less animal protein, americans eat too much of it... but even the China Study includes SOME animal protein and you know it.

Sorry, if our evolution has made us very much into omnivores

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #358)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:53 PM

368. Some, as in under 5% of calories

The China Study makes a pretty persuasive case that having more than 5% animal protein in one's diet wreaks all sorts of havoc in the human body.

Other than B12, there's nothing that eating animal flesh gives us that we can't easily get from plants. AND there are dozens of yucky/unhealthy/cancer-heart-disease-inducing things it does provide. Better to teach impoverished people hunting to eat how to plant and cultivate a garden.

Let's not lay this argument at their feet. Thanks.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #368)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:04 PM

369. And of course my back country denizens do not plant gardens

 

either.

I love those assumptions, I really do.

(For the record, they do)

And you just stated WHY we need some animal products... there, you yourself said it.

But hey, whatever, the China Study (and other traditional diets) have animal products, like meat and eggs, as something you put almost as a GARNISH on your food... there are good, and I might add, very valid reasons for doing that. Americans should reduce their consumption, (which is way above any recommended standard anywhere, including the American Heart Association), but not eliminiate it.

You know you sound like somewhat convinced that you, and you alone have the truth here. You don't, nether do I. These are still moving targets.

As to a dad taking his daughter hunting, you do know that this is also part of the herd management strategy. Good luck in trying to reintroduce wolves and bears oh my... which is the OTHER very real choice.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #369)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:25 PM

371. "China Study (and other traditional diets)..."

What do you mean: "...the China Study (and other traditional diets)..."?

The China Study is not a diet. If that's what you think it's obvious you need to re-read the book to understand its main premise because it obviously escaped you the first time. Here's a hint: humans do not need animal protein, period.



Yeah, let's go hunt turkeys for the Thanksgiving garnish. <rolling eyes>

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Response to Doremus (Reply #371)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:21 PM

373. It followed people eating traditional diets

 

did it not?

Most traditional NON WESTERN diets, do not have large amounts of animal protein. or have animal proteins that I suppose you would not touch, such as insects.

And you are now about to go join a bunch of folks. I hate, absolutely hate black and white, I got all the truth in the world thinking. And no, Chinese Traditional Diet is NOT animal product free. It is very high in VEGETABLE MATTER, but it is NOT animal product free.

It also has a low glycemic load... but if you think it is free of all animal matter, whatever.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #373)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:08 PM

375. Those who argue in circles are particularly fun.

That would be you. But by all means ignore away. Take care.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:16 PM

59. If they eat what they hunt, no harm, no foul

Some families are into this stuff and some of them are poor enough to need that deer in the freezer and stretch the meat until it gets paper thin. Wealthier hunters just enjoy the taste of wild meat.

The hunting that can be condemned is either trophy hunting, where the trophy is taken and the carcass left or poaching, hunting the wrong animals the wrong way and out of season.

It's not my thing. I'm not terribly fond of meat whether it's wild or farmed. I'm not going to condemn things just because I don't do them.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:28 PM

67. OFFS, I am so pissed that i have to do this but

for better or worse the legal hunting age in WI is 10 and I know plenty of families who do just as Paul Ryan did. I applaud him for not being a sexist about it quite honestly. If they eat what they kill I have no problem (other than my personal revulsion towards hunting). That being said, he is still an epic douche!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:40 PM

76. Oh lord, another dick cheney

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:41 PM

77. Good for him and good for her, but I'm hoping the "women's camo" isn't some kind of stupid pink-

lined thing. It looks like it is. Size and fit for women, fine; no reason to get a pink gun or gloves.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #77)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:16 AM

128. It's entirely possible his daughter likes pink.

 

Many young girls do. It's not my favorite color, but if it's what they want...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:43 PM

78. utterly fucking SICK

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:45 PM

81. Why?

 

Are we all to live by your standards? I have no problem with this. Attack him on his political issues, this is not an issue.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #81)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:48 PM

82. you know what? I am NOT even going to waste my time on you

BYE!!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #82)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:52 PM

87. why?

 

Because you have no credible answer? Goodbye too you also.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:08 PM

96. I guess my stepdad was an evil sickom then.

Despite the fact that he was a hard-core Progressive.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:18 AM

129. Why is it sick?

 

My entire New Hampshire family has voted D for decades. Just about every one of us hunted from very early ages.

Do you have an answer?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:54 AM

146. But why?

 

You've made a statement but you've failed to back it up in any way.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:48 PM

225. We're not going to get a rational response, are we? n/t

 

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Response to Skittles (Reply #78)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:40 PM

324. Why? People hunt in the back country

 

get over it.

There are many other things to go after Romney and Ryan, really.

But hunting? Nope, it ain't one of them.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:44 PM

79. Romney and Ryan have no regard for human life - or any life for that matter.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:45 PM

80. The man is sick

 

I call that child abuse and don't know why anyone would want such an idiot as VP.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #80)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:50 PM

85. Why is it child abuse?

 

Do you even have any clue what child abuse is? I taught my kids, even my daughters, at a young age to hunt, am I guilty of child abuse? How about the millions of Dems who hunt and teach their kids to hunt, are they guilty of child abuse? Who the hell are you to judge how we raise our children?
Your statement is ridiculous at the best.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:53 PM

88. ohhh noes!!1

i knoooooow.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:54 PM

89. I have lots of things I can criticize Ryan on

but I just don't care about this. He lives in the upper midwest. People hunt there. People take their kids with them when they hunt. I bet there are families that do this that happen to be Dems as well. Does he do illegal hunting? Probably not. I don't get the "sick" comments. Isn't this normal for this area?

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #89)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:57 PM

91. This is very normal

 

for this area, I'm with you, I don't see the outrage over this. There are a lot of other things to attack him for, this just ain't one of them.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #91)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:19 AM

352. How is teaching a child

 

how to kill another living thing with a rifle "normal?" It would be if we all lived in the wild and needed to eat animals to live. It's atrocious that this man thinks teaching a 10 year-old to kill is appropriate for her age.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #352)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:11 PM

354. It's very normal for many parts of the country

 

All my kids, including my daughters, were hunting by the ages of 7-8, by age 10, they all had their own hunting rifles.
Have you ever seen how they raise and butcher the food that's in your local supermarket? If you want to see something "atrocious", visit a factory farm one day, I'll bet you change your mind.
All my kids still hunt and they didn't turn into serial killers or anything.
Who are you to judge what we, as parents, teach our children? Raise your kids like you want, don't judge others for how they raise their kids.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #352)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:06 PM

386. So what you are saying is that the morality of hunting is dependent...

 

on the availability of grocery stores, a modern convenience that has only been around for a few decades?

Fucking seriously?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:55 PM

90. God-Guns-Gays nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #92)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:19 PM

99. maybe he hunts on private land?

Not totally sure what the law is then but I do know it does not require you to have blaze orange on your blind (the ex was a hunter, hunted on private land)

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:20 AM

130. Maybe he already has some?

 

Blaze-orange vests are quite cheap and often one-size-fits-all.

It would sure be nice if people would start asking him these questions instead of making lazy assumptions based on no evidence at all.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #130)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #156)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:01 PM

191. The man has been a hunter for a long time and, IIRC, in the previous thread trying to bash him....

 

for this same issue, the pictures posted clearly showed him in hi-viz safety vests.

So yeah, it's quite reasonable to lean towards my hypothesis.


O.K., found the previous thread. First picture, no orange, the second picture isn't coming through my firewall at work today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021112577

However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #191)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #206)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:38 PM

223. Come on, creative editing, much?

 

You failed to quote the entire operative phrasing, omitting the "IIRC" and "the second picture isn't coming through my firewall at work today." After which, I posted the link for anyone to look for themselves.

Then you make a number of assumptions about my thoughts that are complete misinterpretations of what I actually said. Please go back and read my statements more carefully. There is no eviedence that he does not already own safety vests, or some other type of high-vis safety gear.

In the linked pictures, it's possible he took off any high-vis clothes prior to the picture-taking. It's certainly what I would do. Bright orange looks awful in that type of photo.

So, to sumarize, I was wrong. I allowed for that possibility. Apparently that means you've discovered some deep plot. Go wild.



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Response to PavePusher (Reply #223)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #240)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:11 PM

253. What I said:

 

The man has been a hunter for a long time and, IIRC, in the previous thread trying to bash him for this same issue, the pictures posted clearly showed him in hi-viz safety vests.
Emphasis added.

Yep, I was wrong. Mea Culpa. The thread was from over a month and a half ago. I remembered incorrectly. I admit it.

This is not, however, evidence that he does not own or does not use high-vis gear, it's only evidence that he didn't wear it in those pictures. There is no additional evidence either way, that I've seen. That is all I'm trying to say.

I think we've strayed far off the original subject (firearms and hunting for kids, on which we were pretty much in agreement < but hey, I might be wrong about that too... > ). I was wrong, and it's time to drop this.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #240)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:57 PM

343. So you clicked the link he posted...

 

...And completely IGNORED the second picture (the one that was stated to be blocked by his firewall):



This picture posted CLEARLY shows him in a hi-viz safety vest. This is from the SAME thread that the previous poster linked to. It's sitting directly under the bow picture. You're cherry picking "evidence" in an attempt to make someone look like an ass for defending Paul Ryan for doing something perfectly legal and moral.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #343)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:06 AM

349. Heh, I forgot to even check that when I was at home.

 

Guess I'll have to tonight...

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #343)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #367)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:10 PM

388. Wow, so I was half right... (hence the IIRC in my original response...)

 

Help me with this cross, will you? I can get the spikes through my ankles and the first hand by myself, but I have all sorts of trouble with the second hand...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:00 PM

93. I went deer hunting with my dad when I was 10....

I remember it with fond memories..it was a great bonding time for me and my dad.....

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:10 PM

97. Hey, Liza... How does it feel to be used by your dad for a photo op?

Ryan is clearly trying to use his daughter to make sure the single-issue gun voters know where he stands.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #97)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:12 PM

389. Huh, I don't think I've ever seen a picture of his daughter. I just don't care. n/t

 

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:48 PM

107. Ryan = Pander Bear

Last edited Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Wisconsin and his home district has lots of places where Paul could have
bought hunting clothes for his daughter. He was shopping for the cameras.
Now I just looked it up and Wisconsin has an early youth hunt on Oct. 6 & 7
...... Is Ryan taking time off to go hunting w/ his daughter or does he know
that he will have plenty of spare time after the election? Regular deer gun
season starts on Nov 17th.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:56 PM

108. Good for him. Politics have nothing to do with spending some quality time

with his kid, teaching her some lifelong skills, outdoor appreciation, and getting some exercise.

And the silver lining is the more time he spends doing that, the less time he has to spend fucking up the country with the rest of the RW dipshits...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:00 PM

109. How can people hunt anymore?

Didn't Obama take all the guns away from everybody? I kept getting those email forwards saying that's what he was going to do. You mean they were wrong?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:02 PM

110. So much silly hyperbolic outrage in this thread; it's embarrassing to read. (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:32 PM

113. OK, what's the problem here?

I don't hunt myself, but in this part of the country hunting is part of the culture.

But as long as they're safe, licensed, permitted and in-season, so be it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:58 PM

115. Paul Ryan is a dick bag for many reasons

but not this. Most kids that grow up in the country are given guns and hunting gear BEFORE they are 10. Assuming that they are killing these animals for meat and not sport, there is nothing wrong here.

I live in the city, and I didn't grow up around guns. The first time I went out to visit a boyfriend's parents out in the country and I saw his 8 year old nieces (target) shooting I almost shit. I've grown quite used to it now though. They are always safe, and supervised. I can't really say anything about it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:28 PM

118. People here are really upset by this?

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #118)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:38 PM

210. Some are.

But I think most realize how ridiculous it is to be upset by this, as well as how ignorant the attitudes of some of the folks here are.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:38 PM

119. Gee daddy why don't ya buy her

 

a good gutting knife too. . .

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Response to B Calm (Reply #119)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:23 AM

132. Maybe she already has one.

 

Maybe you and the rest of the snark-tastics should shove that crap back up your asses.

Seriously, all the issues to beat the man up over, and you pick this? Lazy, or just out of motivation?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #132)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:46 AM

168. I think she should learn to gut the deer!

 

If you kill something, then by god you should know how to clean it and damn well better eat it!

And as far as you and your personal attack, you need to learn to control your temper before you get reported!

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Response to B Calm (Reply #168)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #246)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:20 AM

270. I never alerted it! But that said

 

his remarks were still uncalled for. I taught my kids to hunt and fish and I also taught them how to clean their game. That is part of hunting and fishing!

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #132)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:28 PM

169. Give It A Rest..... (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:24 AM

133. Good for him

 

I wish more fathers would take that kind of interest in their children.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:28 AM

135. Oscar Wilde on the hunting crowd...

"The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable"

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Response to CorBlimeyGuvnor (Reply #135)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 05:51 AM

139. more accurately, Oscar Wilde on the the English country gentleman

"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - the unspeakable in full pursuit of the
uneatable."

A Woman of No Importance, Oscar Wilde

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Response to CorBlimeyGuvnor (Reply #135)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:13 PM

390. Deer are "uneatable"?

 

What kind of screwed up deer do you have?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:44 AM

136. Hunting freaks me the fuck out.

So I don't do it. But I know a lot of people that do and that's their deal.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:33 AM

140. I got a rifle for Christmas when I was nine.

And it wasn't too many years after that when I went hunting.

Really, there are plenty of things to righteously bash Paul Ryan for. This is NOT one of them.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:57 AM

147. I don't get the outrage over hunting

Maybe because I live somewhere where many people hunt. But really most people eat meat or eggs/dairy, and animals in those situations are generally much worse off than an animal who lives freely until shot.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #147)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:05 AM

150. I agree. It isn't for me, but with the deer population not exactly in trouble

and factory farming so gross for animals, I sometimes wonder if I shouldn't encourage my husband to take it back up.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #150)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:56 AM

157. Scratch a hunter and you'll find a conservationist...

This is an inroad to rural voters that really hasn't been exploited. They don't like being told what to do with or on their own property, and unfortunately, this is the principal contact that many of them have with "environmentalists." But if you take the issue of suburban sprawl, for example, and place it in the context of diminishing habitat for wildlife management -- and thus diminished hunting opportunities, you might find some rural folks taking an interest.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #157)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #244)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:57 PM

248. Tnose are not hunters. Those are douche bags.

They look similar, but there's a difference.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #157)


Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:10 AM

152. Really? This is the best we got?

Offending a culture that, btw, some of us DUers also been through.

Provided that he has done the following I have had no issues with this and it includes proper gun safety, teaching her to hunt what is regulated and only if she plans to use what is hunted AND keeping the gun under lock & key until she is using it then I have no issue with this.

Many of us DUers, myself included, were raised in rural Pennsylvania. My parents were very loving, caring and reprimanded me when I brought home some of the racist words I'd pick up at school.

I don't hunt today nor do I own a gun. But I respect the culture and I do support strong gun laws so that people can own guns but they do not fall into the wrong hands.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:41 AM

155. So? My dad used us as bird dogs when he hunted

and none of us grew up to be serial killers hooked on guns & violence.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #155)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:41 AM

164. ok ok folks

 

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:43 AM

165. 'here sweetie, take this gun and go kill a beautiful living creature for fun'

Disgusting. Animals grieve, they feel fear, they feel loss.

Did people learn nothing from the recent death of the Panda cub at the zoo??? They found the cub after the Mama Panda was heard giving a "DISTRESS WAIL" when her baby was dying.

Fuck Paul Ryan.. and fuck people who think it's fucking SPORT to murder an animal for fun.

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #165)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:51 PM

175. Your outrage is duly noted

 

do you eat meat? I've never killed an animal for fun, I've killed animals for food and I've enjoyed the taste of venison, game animals and I really don't give care what you think of it.

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #165)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:05 PM

194. How about people who make broad-brush stereotypes/accusations?

 

Should we say "Fuck them!" too?

And what, pray tell, does a panda cub dying in a zoo have to do with hunting and eating what one hunts (as Ryan apparently does)?

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #165)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:00 PM

313. Yes, better her meat should be killed invisibly, by illegal immigrants

 

in a squalid slaughterhouse crawling with e. coli, to be enjoyed from a styrofoam tray wrapped in plastic, as Nature intended.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:29 PM

170. Big deal. There are real things to complain about Ryan.

Not crap like this. Many folks who grew up in rural America get guns by age 10.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:29 PM

171. I do not give a shit how he raises his child.

I care a lot more for the evil he does that will destroy the hopes and chances of any american child who is not born with that proverbial spoon of silver.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:30 PM

172. Did he give her a 270 for Christmas?

 

Why is it I have a feeling he is as fake a hunter as RMoney is a politician?

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Response to Rex (Reply #172)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:06 PM

195. Well, if you ignore the available evidence, yeah, sure, whatever...

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #195)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:29 PM

370. And your point was what exactly?

 

If you want to say something, don't just be mealy mouth about it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:47 PM

174. Sport Hunting Is On The Decline In The U.S.


From an estimated 19.1 million in 1975, to 12.5 million in 2006, to maybe 9.1 million in 2025 (USFWS figures). Significant problems in recruiting young people. Beyond that, the gun movement in this country is less and less attached to hunting, to the point of finding it distasteful---they even have a snotty little term they use in referring to hunters: "Fudds." I gave up hunting years ago; yes, the wildlife looks better to me alive than dead these days, but the main reason I walked away from it was the large number of right wing assholes I had to keep company with. Guys like Paul Ryan......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #174)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:57 PM

178. If you have to keep company with --anybody-- while hunting...

you're doing it wrong.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #178)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:34 PM

184. And If That's An Example Of Your Interpretive Skills......


...I don't think you ought to be anywhere near a gun.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #184)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 08:03 PM

256. And if that's an example of your interpersonal skills...

...you're an ass with no sense of humor.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #174)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:09 PM

197. Hmmmm, I heard something last weekend that said the number of people participating...

 

in hunting has gone up over the last few years, quite possibly due to the economy. I'll try to find it and post it here.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #197)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:48 PM

213. A simple google search underscores that there is a great deal of disagreement on the actual number..

...of hunters in the US, and if it is on the rise or in decline. So I think the numbers provided by Paladin are questionable at best.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #213)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:11 PM

219. Take It Up With U.S. Fish & Wildlife


The numbers I cited came from that agency---I didn't make them up.

And while you're at it, stop by the DU Gun Control/RKBA group and see how much enthusiasm there is for hunting---compared to all the discussion of shooting human beings, and firearms designed specifically for that sort of thing. The Outdoor Life group is where hunting is supposed to be discussed, but it's virtually unused.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #174)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:45 PM

211. Actually, you're a bit off.


1. Fudd

Slang term for a "casual" gun owner; eg; a person who typically only owns guns for hunting or shotgun sports and does not truly believe in the true premise of the second amendment. These people also generally treat owners/users of so called "non sporting" firearms like handguns or semiautomatic rifles with unwarranted scorn or contempt.


The term is not about the person being a hunter, but about the person being an asshole towards those who own other types of firearms not associated with hunting.

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Response to eqfan592 (Reply #211)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:17 PM

220. Care To Tell Us Where That Definition Came From?


My guess is, from some group that views Paul Ryan as the Second Coming Of Christ......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #220)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:31 PM

281. Urban dictionary, top ranked result.

As well as from my own experience in the gun community, having heard some hunters call others "fudds" based on their positions on issues such as the AWB.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #174)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:47 PM

325. What is picking up is sports photography

 

my choice of a 300 mm lens...

But the reality is that as long as other natural predators are not there, we wil have to manage those populations one way or another.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

179. "Don't taze me, Bro." - Bambi

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

180. Where is DCF?

giving a kid a deadly weapon is wrong and isn't it illegal...kids and guns don't mix. Where is DCF?

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Response to Laurajr (Reply #180)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:50 PM

188. You would love my sons Sporting Clays team then.

 

They start in the 4th grade... We have 260 kids at a youth tournament. They are safer than adults.

[link:http://www.rockycreekclaydusters.com/|

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Response to Laurajr (Reply #180)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:13 PM

199. I had guns, knives and chain-saws by the time I was 10. Drove tractors occasionally too.

 

My parents obviously wanted me dead.... right?

Seriously, do you think they just get handed a gun at a certain age and shoved out the door?

"Go play, munchkin, and have fun!"

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Response to Laurajr (Reply #180)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:57 AM

268. Where are your google skills?

 

no it isn't illegal to give a kid a rifle at that age. All my kids were hunting by the age of 7 or 8 and all of them had their own hunting rifles at the age of 10.
If you're so concerned, call DCF yourself and report Ryan, and see how fast you are laughed at.

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Response to Laurajr (Reply #180)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:25 PM

272. I take it you have not bothered to research gun laws?

I can understand why - facts have a tendency to deflate righteous rants.

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Response to Laurajr (Reply #180)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:05 PM

316. Holy crap! I should be dead then.

 

I was given a rifle (an old .22 bolt-action) when I was 8, and used it under careful supervision. I was taught to take care and respect the potential of the rifle but not to fear it. Kids and guns mix just fine, if handled properly and with great supervision.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:03 PM

181. I guess Paul Ryan forgot about Dick Cheney

and how Dick shot his hunting partner.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:12 PM

182. Paul Ryan says he owns the Boone and Crocket Whitetail Archery record...nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:34 PM

183. Not an issue IMO...

 

I don't hunt anymore, but I used to take a deer every year when we were poor. I never liked hunting, and I never liked butchering day growing up (my folks were 70's back to the landers) but I do like to eat.

I may or may not take my daughters hunting depending on whether they want to do so.

As for buying a child a gun, my kids had guns that were "theirs" before they were born. I shot competitive 3-gun and CAS before my eyes went and I wouldn't discourage my kids from doing so if they wanted to. Uncertainty about the future availability of many firearms drives sales. A kid needs a rifle that suits them if they're going to hunt, I doubt Ryans daughter is keeping it loaded in her room.

Glock pictures...gun culture in general is driven by gun control. Nothing sold so many "assault weapons" as the assault weapons ban, and nothing feeds the gun picture fad like the outrage of anti-gun people.

I understand the impulse, but even if you believe guns should be completely done away with as a practical matter measures attempting to ban features are extremely counterproductive. The AWB still being in the platform is a huge mistake IMO, it costs us house seats, it probably cost us the presidency in 2000/2004.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:51 PM

189. I was 5 or 6 the first time I shot a gun.

I don't hunt but I do like guns. (Not in a creepy unnatural way) This really isn't an issue in my mind. The only question i have is did she have a say in this or is hunting a requisite in the Ryan household...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:28 PM

205. Big deal.

I don't hunt, but I know plenty of people who teach their kids to hunt.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:47 PM

212. "You must die, that I may live"

There is no reason to hunt unless you really need food. Killing of animals for sport is barbaric. An expensive way to pump up small Neanderthal egos.

Reflects the Rethuglican view of the world = Predator and Prey

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #228)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 05:06 PM

241. Did you read what I said?

Killing of animals FOR SPORT is barbaric.

I said, IF you NEED the food to eat, then hunt.

I think the numbers of hunters who go at it for SPORT has increased.

And I also think it promotes a predator/prey mentality, when you kill FOR SPORT.

The NRA is mostly made up of people who think in terms of predator/prey.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #241)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:25 PM

254. You might have an argument.... if you had some evidence and numbers to support your assertions.

 

Seriously, in terms of any actual numbers, or percentage of hunters, how many hunt purely for "sport"? WAG?

Every hunter I've ever known (I grew up rural) ate what they hunted. Which doesn't preclude anyone from taking pride in their skill and accomplishment. Even with a firearm, hunting is difficult, strenuous, fatiguing work requireing skill and tenacity and, depending on the game, more than a little luck.

As for "promotes a predator/prey mentality", ummm... you don't think a few million years of evolution had anything to do with it, do you?

Please cite your evidence for your claim on the NRA. IIRC, the latest member stats show that the majority of them don't hunt.

Huh, looks like I remembered correctly: http://www.statisticbrain.com/national-rifle-association-nra-statistics/

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #254)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 09:16 PM

257. I'm sure you have all the numbers you need

where I live, I call 'em "shooters"--they're not really hunting to eat anything. They just go around in the woods shooting. I saw one raise his gun on an owl. I yelled out and he ran off. All dressed up in camo to shoot an owl...

Time to evolve further...blowing away wild animals for sport isn't evolutionarily advantageous anymore. And we need to ratchet back ye olde predator/prey mentality. It's not helping us these days. You ignore my point about how this sadistic mentality plays into what we're seeing in politics, especially right wing politics.

I think MOST people calling themselves hunters today do it as sport. There are some people who still hunt for needed food, but that's declining.

Dick Cheney--How many Pheasants and Quail did you kill today? ----------------------------------------------------

"Unlike Cheney's 2003 trip to Rolling Rock Club in Ligonier Township, Pa., in which he killed 70 pheasants and an undisclosed number of ducks (his hunting party killed 417 pheasants), staff at the Clove Valley Rod & Gun Club remained tight-lipped about the take." ....

"Birds raised for canned hunts at gun clubs and in state "recreational" areas are grown in packed pens -- think factory farmed chickens -- and fitted with goggles so they won't peck each other to death from the crowding.

When released for put and take hunters like Cheney, pen raised birds can barely walk or fly -- or see, thanks to the goggles. They don't know how to forage or hide in the wild and sometimes have to be kicked to "fly" enough to be shot.

Some hunters say shooting the pellet-ready tame animals, which offer no resistance, is like having sex with a blow-up doll.

But others say hunting itself is like sex with a blow up doll and that the 10 percent decline in hunters seen in the United States since the late '90s -- from 14 million to about 12.5 million -- coincides exactly with the debut of impotence drugs like Viagra.

Still for the veep to pursue his addiction to the "programmed massacre of scores of tame, pen-raised birds" despite all the "negative publicity it has generated for him" suggests a deep psychological disorder, writes Gerald Schiller in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette .

Especially since criminologists have long recognized that premeditated, sadistic treatment of animals is a strong predictor of criminal and homicidal violence.

Sociopaths Jeffrey Dahmer and Richard Speck were both big on animal cruelty. And they weren't running foreign policy.

http://www.alternet.org/story/67663/dick_cheney%27s_sadistic_passion_for_shooting_tame_animals

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #257)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:38 PM

258. Wow, all hunters are Dick Cheney? Really?

 

What percentage of hunting are these "canned hunts"? Got stats?

Or we are now "Sociopaths" like "Jeffrey Dahmer and Richard Speck"?

Please, expound....

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #258)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:22 AM

267. Most "hunters" today are "shooters"

--ie. woodland terrorists.

They just like to go around with rifles shootin' at things to get their fix of Predator/Prey. Better to play video games. This "sport" activity has no place in modern society--it's a relic from the past. But with leaders like Dirty Dick Cheney--I'm sure it feeds the "Sport" mentality. Target shooting is one thing--I'm talking about killing animals for fun. Killing animals for fun is barbaric. Killing animals for fun, in my book, is a criminal act.

People who hunt for food are scarce. Most people who do not hunt but own guns are all about "protection"--such a joke unless you're a trained professional (small percentage of the population).

So, you know my position. I have nothing more to say. You got your POV. I got mine.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #267)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:12 AM

269. I'm calling bullshit

 

most hunters today are not woodland terrorists, that's blatantly false. Every hunter I know, and that includes all my kids, hunt for food, as do I even though I can afford to buy my food.
You have a very uninformed view of hunters. The vast majority of hunters are also conservationists.
I don't know where you live or what you see, but I can assure that your description of hunters is 100% false.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #269)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:58 PM

287. I live among them in a rural area

& I can assure you I am very informed. I don't have time to reel out all the stories. You know it's true. People kill animals for fun (sport). You can't deny it.

Nuff Said.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #267)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:54 AM

271. And your evidence to back up your assertions/accusations is...????

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #271)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:59 PM

289. Relax

--relax nobody's gonna take away your guns.

One day people will realize how archaic and destructive it is.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #289)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 05:36 PM

310. Nice dodge.

 

Have a great day.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #267)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:28 PM

279. So you're saying my son should sit inside and play video games this weekend instead of going out on

a gorgeous fall day, walking with his grandfather, learning the rules of land use, seeing the effects of the 10-year grouse cycle and bringing home some food for the table?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #279)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:06 PM

290. Not at all

your son should take a nice hike through the woods with his grandfather, who would teach him to respect Nature through binoculars--not scopes. Blowing grouse away and bringing food to the table is some old dude's fantasy about being a Squire and providing for his family. Only it's retro now. But don't worry until the old ways die off you're safe.

I dream of a future where humans and animals can walk in the woods without fear of people who have to feel like they "own it" carrying deadly obsolete weaponry. It's primitive and barbaric. Killing birds for fun and eating them if you don't NEED the food is especially weird. Fetishistic. Think about it.

Don't worry --there will never be any laws against it in this country. All I'm asking is...think about it.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #290)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:18 PM

291. It's possible to do both, you know. To respect nature while hunting.

I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about "some old dude's fantasy about being a squire and providing for his family." My son is so proud to bring back food that we all enjoy together. He's an excellent shot and often finds birds his grandpa has missed. And I mentioned elsewhere that I fail to understand why a family has to be "starving" or "NEED the food" before some deign to admit that it's OK to hunt. My family is fortunate enough to be able to buy all the food we need, and some of the food we want. But what we want, sometimes, is grouse or venison, because those animals are tasty and there is a real pleasure to eating the food you've harvested yourself. Why is that "weird" or "fetishistic" -- or any more so than enjoying a tomato I've grown at the end of the summer?

I think about it a lot, and pretty soon I regret ever getting into these threads.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #291)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:32 PM

292. Y'know the olden days

when men went out and brought the grub to the table--just a romantic fantasy now (since of course we don't have enough animals or woods for everyone to keep doing it into the future).

These days the killed animal becomes a fetish object, a sports trophy, if it is not needed for food. Animals and nature are disrespected by this wanton killing. Animals are not tomatoes. But one day, people will get it. Just think about it. It's a fugly thing to do. You can defend it all you want, but it's a piggy practice. And as I've said, it's more about shootin' than huntin" anymore. But I understand there's a fraternity out there of diehards who are afraid of somebody prying it from their cold dead hands.

No, I want people to stop and think what they are doing. They will one day. I am talking about this type of sport killing (not people who are poor and must eat). Sport killing.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #292)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:37 PM

294. My family is not poor. We eat what we kill. Are we a part of your romantic fantasy piggy practice?

Is it "sport killing" in your book when the people who hunt and eat what they kill don't have to hunt to survive? That's what I'm asking.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #294)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:19 PM

295. Don't get me to accuse you

that's not the point. I'd probably like you and yours, & wouldn't want to put you down in person.

But you have to look at the practice of sport killing for what it is. It's the same as going to Africa to the big game farms. Nobody needs to be doing it. It fulfills primitive urges, but beyond that it has no function these days except to bring home trophies. (And demonstrate one's prowess to others). You can enjoy Nature just as well without shooting to kill. So yes, I call it sport killing if you are not dependent on it for food (and I do know some people who are dependent on it). It is an unforgiveable act of violence in my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with me. I just pray that one day, it will no longer fulfill people's romantic fantasies of domination over defenseless creatures. (Which of course is a peculiarly human domination fantasy --because Nature rules, always).

So don't take it personally. I state my case, you state yours. I don't care about laws or numbers. The answer does not lie in laws. The answer lies in human hearts, which I hope will one day will reject, will cease and desist from all sport killing. It is an affront to nature and all that is sacred in life.

So we can just agree to disagree. I just want people to think about it.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #292)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 05:52 PM

312. "just a romantic fantasy now"... no, an actual reality for some still.

 

(since of course we don't have enough animals or woods for everyone to keep doing it into the future)

So... if everyone can't do it, no-one should? Huh?

These days the killed animal becomes a fetish object

Your history is teh phale.


Animals and nature are disrespected by this wanton killing. Animals are not tomatoes.

Are you vegan? Animals are, often, food. For homo sapiens and other animals.

Just think about it.

Yes, you should.

And as I've said, it's more about shootin' than huntin" anymore.

An assertion you keep repeating, but have not provided evidence for.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #291)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:34 PM

293. see post no 292

n/t

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #290)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:33 PM

296. You have no clue what real hunters are about

 

If you think that we're all like the very few you know, then nobody can help you. I do enjoy walking through the woods with binoculars and a rifle scope attached to a rifle.
I kill and eat pheasant, grouse, dove and I enjoy it. It tastes a lot better than the meat I can buy in the market, I also enjoy deer hunting and eating what I kill.
BTW, I have thought about it and I'm not changing my views of hunting just because some people find it barbaric, that's your problem, not mine.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #296)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:23 PM

301. I've been around hunters a lot

a good friend of mine hunts elk. Another one hunts deer, etc etc. They are my friends, good guys, but I still consider them woodland terrorists in the full sense of the word. People aren't always what you want them to be and you have to overlook it in them. Damned if I'll say I admire it or condone it, though. (Like you, they know what I think). These days it's some kind of retro foxes and hounds fantasy IMO. Ultimately it is about domination.

I have no expectation that you will change your views. Some people get what I'm saying, some don't. But take a hard look at exactly why you do this and what it means. How do you really feel about trophy hunting, sport killing? How do you feel about canned hunts? How is what you do better than that? If you find you can't get along without it, then proceed. Nobody will ever stop you. It isn't about winning. It's about personal needs and actions. I can only pin my hopes on others.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #290)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 05:44 PM

311. Oh, so only rich people hunt, or hunted in the past.....

 

and no-one NEEDs food.

Got it.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #311)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:32 PM

321. Rich (or well off) people are the only ones who hunt

for the fun of it--ie. for sport--today. Poor or struggling people hunt to eat. There's a difference.

So that's why I say it's a nostalgia thing. Watching the death throes of dying wild animals (which I have seen) is a really retro past time. It's all about power and trophies now--"I killed it myself, daddy..." One day we'll get over this urge, I hope. I'm sure it won't be in my lifetime.

No need to get upset. You do what's right for you. I do what's right for me. Just sayin' --old rituals die hard.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #321)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:51 AM

346. I'm not upset....

 

just puzzled as to how someone could be so wrong, and proud of it. Interesting phenomena.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #346)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:11 PM

353. People who go around saying those who differ from them are "wrong"



What's that about? Black/white. Us/them. My way/the highway. Rigidity.

Ya KNOW I am not alone in my opinion about the dubious morality of sport killing. As long as it lasts in our culture, I'm sure it will be protected by law. I just hope it fades out, that's all. Fades out like the vestige of the past that it is. Sure I am invested in my opinion, as you are in yours.

We don't have to agree. You're right in your world. I'm right in my world.

Live and Let Live (and that includes wild animals). Nice chattin' Cya

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:49 PM

214. Not an issue from my point of view. I was raised for my fisrt 7 years in Wyoming

and many kids got .22 rifles before 10 years old. It as a tool on the ranch for snakes &c. Kids shot cans and were taught safety early on. Part of the culture and no one was worse for it.

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Response to skip fox (Reply #214)


Response to skip fox (Reply #214)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:06 PM

317. I grew up in southwestern Wyoming and I can attest to all this.

 

I had a .22 at 8 years old and was always taught to respect it and take great care while handling it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:50 PM

215. My father was too much of a bigot against women to that

 

That said, I wouldn't go hunting or fishing with him, either.

I don't see this as a bad thing, and I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not liberal enough. I'm from the South. This would have been a completely liberal act, here.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #215)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:52 PM

217. Canned hunts, too.

 

"This would have been a completely liberal act, here...."

Canned hunts, too.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #217)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:06 PM

218. Yeah

 

And I'm trying to give family the benefit of the doubt. It is difficult some times.

I will never forget the duck in the trunk of the car that was waiving it's head back and forth. It was still alive.

Cruelty is not my nature, and I have never liked it. I stand up to it, and for that, I have been shunned.

And I'll keep standing up.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #218)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:21 PM

221. I'm afraid I don't know the relevant ethical difference between hunting and canned hunting...

 

I'm afraid I don't know the relevant ethical difference between hunting and canned hunting...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 02:52 PM

216. they'll spend thousands on a 'hunt' for a couple pounds of meat

At least they are good test subjects, front line for bird flu-ground herbicide exposure and that horrid chronic wasting disease in the deer population.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:33 PM

222. I don't understand gun and hunting culture.

 

If you don't need to hunt in order to eat, what's the point of just killing something for sport?

And what parent would buy their 9 year old daughter a gun??? That's irresponsible parenting!

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Response to Alduin (Reply #222)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:54 PM

226. 1. So, is it more ethical to get one's meat from plastic trays.....

 

safely remote from the truth of it's origins?

2. How is it "irresponsible"? Do you have proof they let her use it without close supervision?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #226)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:00 PM

230. I get my meat from the co-op

 

where I know the animal was killed humanely and lived in good to great conditions.

And two, I see you post in the gun group, so I know you already have an agenda, so I'm not going to argue with you on this. I feel one way about this subject and you feel another way. We aren't going to sway each other on this issue, so I'm going to save us the time and not debate it.

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Response to Alduin (Reply #230)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:06 PM

231. 1. So hunting isn't humane?

 

Do you know this for a fact? Do you know what method of killing your co-op slaughter-house uses? Can you explain the moral/ethical difference?

2. Feelings are fine. But they're better if backed up by facts and evidence. You have yet to explain how this is "irresponsible parenting".

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Response to Alduin (Reply #222)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:24 AM

261. Why are the two options subsistence hunting vs. killing for "sport"? Many people hunt for a variety

or combination of reasons, such as it's family tradition, it's fun to go out with people you like and enjoy the wilderness, it's fun to do things with your own hands once in a while, and the meat is darn tasty. Why does it have to be that if you're not hunting because you're starving, you must be some kind of bloodthirsty fiend?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:54 PM

227. I take that he never let her watch Bambi.

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Response to Lint Head (Reply #227)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:57 PM

229. Relevance??

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #229)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:15 PM

234. It's called a joke. Deer hunters kill deer. Bambi is a Disney character loved by 9 year olds.

Relevance? Just keeping things light.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:14 PM

233. I'm guessing this guy took up hunting

 

sometime in July. "Hey, I'm just a regular millionaire with an F-150 and .30 '06 like you!"

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Response to Oregonian (Reply #233)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:16 PM

235. Well, you guessed wrong.

 

He's been involved in hunting most of his life.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #235)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:21 PM

236. Are you a family friend?

 

Or just some douchebag who corrects a person's rhetorical statements?

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Response to Oregonian (Reply #236)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 04:41 PM

239. Sorry, I just see a lot of potential to lose political ground over a manufactured concern.

 

There's no gain in alienating people, who'd otherwise be on our side, over something that most of the "outraged" can't even explain coherently.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #235)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:37 PM

247. John Kerry Is A Long-Time Hunter, As Well.


That didn't stop the DU Gungeon crowd from making common cause with Karl Rove and dumping all over Kerry, due to that goose hunt. Don't expect us long-time members to cut a radical right-winger like Ryan any slack, just because he stands around some camo clothing.......

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:59 PM

249. After a year of going out in the woods with hunters, she's finally earned some camoflage

That's some really tough love there, dad.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #249)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:01 PM

250. Meat is murder!

Caviar is genocide! Omlettes are euthanasia with chives!!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:30 PM

255. Not a big deal

A lot of families hunt and fish together.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:30 AM

262. There's a whole lot of manufactured outrage

in this thread.
Ryan is a first class asshole, but taking his kid hunting isn't one of the reasons.

From what I remember, kids have to take a hunter safety course from the DNR. I know a bunch of people (male & female) that hunt in WI. Some of them belong to Hunt for the Hungry. The deer is processed by a butcher and donated to the local food pantry.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:43 AM

264. She's lucky to have a father who can teach her how to safely handle firearms

 

Too many children are growing up in gun-ignorant homes.

Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:10 PM

275. There's still a fight over this?

Jeez.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:16 PM

276. Sounds sort of like my dad, actually...

 

Except he taught me to use a bow. He also taught me a lot of wilderness survival, tracking, and even wilderness medicine.

He was also a gigantic asshole, but hey, at least I got SOMETHING out of that...

Of course the difference is, we hunted because we were fucking poor. It was a food source, not a mode of entertainment.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #276)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:19 PM

392. There seems to be a meme being promoted that only the poor should hunt for food.

 

The rich should buy all their food from stores, because that's more ethical and moral.... which back-lashes on the poor, in a vicious circle....

The dichotomy (or maybe just the enormous freaking logic fail) is fascinating to watch here.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #392)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:41 PM

399. I hope you're not trying to put that in my mouth.

 

We hunted because we were poor and living in the asshole of western North Carolina at the time. I'm certainly not saying poor people should have to do so, and I really haven't seen that from anyone else.

Not sure how anyone would figure store-bought meat is somehow "more ethical," either.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #399)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:32 AM

400. I read this:

 

Of course the difference is, we hunted because we were fucking poor. It was a food source, not a mode of entertainment.

...and it seemed to be saying that the rich hunt only for entertainment. If I misinterpreted you, my apology. But there's been a lot of that exact sentiment expressed in this thread.

Not sure how anyone would figure store-bought meat is somehow "more ethical," either.

I don't understand it either, but again, there seem to be quite a few here who believe exactly that. It is a great puzzlement.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #400)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:31 PM

406. Well, they certainly don't do it for survival...

 

Which is the situation my family was in; it wasn't a case of "by golly, I have a hankering for venison, when's hunting season open?" it was "Either we turn this animal's body into a bullet-trap, or we live off rice and good intentions for the next month"

And then there's that whole "canned hunt" business? Yeeeeah.

I make a distinction between "hunting" and "shooting animals." The latter involves clipped wings, fences, and mixed drinks on demand.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #406)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 10:57 AM

407. "canned hunts", while they certainly exist...

 

are not nearly as common as some here would have people believe. I admit that this may be perception/association bias, as I would be pretty unlikely to associate with people who engage in such activity. I think it's a "problem" that's being hyperbolized and blown out of proportion to it's actual percentage of hunting. A tactic used by all political partys, pretty equally, in my experience.

As for not need to do it for "survival", "so what?" if someone hunts who could otherwise afford to buy their food? As long as they eat what they kill, I would say it's more morally positive than buying neatly wrapped trays of industrial agriculture meat, as they have purposely not distanced themselves from knowing where their food comes from. I leave the debate about relative health of the meat source generally alone, as I see pros/cons to both sides.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #392)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 10:14 AM

405. It parallels the "organic is the only moral food" arguments.

 

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:37 PM

283. BFD, many people learn to shoot, to hunt at that age.

Better gun-safe than sorry. Hunting is not murder, no matter what may follow. Hunting / shooting is not a gateway drug, no matter what may follow.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:55 PM

286. This was clearly just a stunt to endear him to the NRA.

Personally, I don't believe that a nine year old is going to be responsible enough to own a gun and/or use a gun. That's my opinion. If it's legal for Ryan's daughter, then he's done nothing wrong in that respect.

But doing this bullshit in front of the cameras was clearly a stunt to show he's "pro gun". Show me the evidence that Ryan (being the male chauvanist that he is) has ever bought his daughter school clothes or clothes for any other activity and then I might believe this wasn't a scripted, campaign moment.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #286)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:47 PM

297. Are you for real?

 

you think he hasn't provided for his family? And why does he have to prove anything like that to us?
Attack him on his politics, fair game, this is not an issue to attack him on.
How about Bill Clinton, is this just a photo op?


How about Chuck Schumer, is this just a photo op?


Well, whaddya know, here's Big Ed and his wife, is this just a photo op?


And one more, is this just a photo op for John Kerry?


I think you get my drift.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #297)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:01 PM

298. Absolutely, I'm for real.

Somehow I cannot picture Ryan picking out anything relating to his daughter. I'd bet in his mind, that's his wife's job. His previous public comments about women's issues leave me no doubt that he is a misogynist.

I'm not "attacking" him. I am stating my opinion, and oh guess what....that's allowed here.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #298)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:08 PM

299. Yeah

 

you can state your opinion here, but you don't know if he does or doesn't help pick out his daughters clothes, and I doubt his wife does either, at that age, and I speak from plenty of experience, 10 yo girls generally pick out their own clothes.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #299)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:15 PM

300. Well someone's gotta drive a ten year old to the mall.

I still don't think a ten year old is going to pick out camouflage!

And FYI, I know something about 10 year old girls, too. Plenty of experience here, as well.

Have yourself a good evening.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #300)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 04:24 PM