General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe're in the midst of a coup d'etat
which should be blatantly obvious to everyone. If Trump moves to carry out this coup during the election, the military must stop him and appoint the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, as acting president while all the ballots are counted.
What justifies the military doing this? The oath they all took which in part says, "... and to defend the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." (underline and bold type added) If Trump isn't a domestic enemy of our democracy, then words are meaningless.
bullimiami
(13,996 posts)truly, clinically.
what it will come to? no one knows.
soothsayer
(38,601 posts)still_one
(96,725 posts)TxVietVet
(1,905 posts)bluestarone
(18,330 posts)Just look at his track record! The proof is right there! If he's dumb enough to tell us what his plans are, WE better be PREPARED!!!
Texin
(2,659 posts)machoneman
(4,125 posts)into submission to the will of the people.
Cyrano
(15,324 posts)Texin
(2,659 posts)Doremus
(7,265 posts)Hello? Are we on the same planet?
Response to soothsayer (Reply #2)
machoneman This message was self-deleted by its author.
onlyadream
(2,221 posts)I feel like hes lining up all his ducks, and were helpless.
We thought we got him with Muller (remember all our smug Its Muller Time memes?), we thought the pussy tape, or bleeding out thru her whatever would have got him, we thought his blatant blackmail of the Ukraine would have got him, the kids in cages, etc. he is truly the Teflon Don. I feel like this is another one of those things that hes going to get away with, and it will end our democracy.
lonely bird
(1,930 posts)Or is it because Republicans dont give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about what he says or does? They know. They ALL know what he is. They. Do. Not. Care.
TxVietVet
(1,905 posts)They are not going to stop tRump💩. They Republicans are now teabagging kkklucker conservanazis. They get power and to Hell with our system of government. .
still_one
(96,725 posts)We cannot just let this "play out". He is threatening the country
BGBD
(3,282 posts)he would love to be impeached again.
This is all to distract from Covid.
still_one
(96,725 posts)Lonestarblue
(11,920 posts)What worries me more are the devious Trump lawyers, who have obviously care nothing for the law or they would not be working for Trump, and what they are planning behind the scenes to keep him in power. They probably have not even told Trump because everyone knows he cant keep his mouth shut. But I would bet that Jared knows and is working with the lawyers.
Joes team can prepare for the things Trump has said, but they better be prepared for a bunch of surprises too.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)do you think the Democratic Governors in most of the states he would need would just sit back and say oh well?
still_one
(96,725 posts)past them to try and get enough electors in those states to have electors defy the electoral college will
They are forcing through a SC justice with less than two months to go, with hopes that it would impact a contested election by throwing out those mail in ballots.
While I do not think even this SC would entertain that, I think there is a real question how likely it would be for the individual states to loosen the criteria for rejecting mail-in ballots
His statements are intended to create chaos, and if he loses to encourage his followers to not accept the results, and incite them to violence against the government.
isn't enough to give him a win.
dem4decades
(11,947 posts)Not by force but by attorneys. How are you going to call out the military for that?
Cyrano
(15,324 posts)violent coup. A coup is still a coup no matter how it's done.
dem4decades
(11,947 posts)call out the military?
We're in deep shit, the person in power knows he can't win a fair vote and is doing EVERYTHING to remain in power. Even trying to get the state legislatures in swing states to insert Trump electors to the Electoral College even if he loses the vote in that state.
So even if we win the popular vote and the Electoral college, he will try to change the Electoral College voters after the election.
Who will decide? The Trump Supreme court?
Kaleva
(38,366 posts)If you believe that what you say is a real possibility, then you already have well thought out plans in place. My guess is that you've already stocked up on guns, ammo, food and other supplies. And you also have all the local crazy Trump supporters in your area identified.
If you haven't done any of the above, then you don't think there will be a coup.
johnthewoodworker
(694 posts)Are you saying you can't have a real belief that a republican coup is underway unless you have developed a rational, all encompassing response plan? Because I believe the coup is underway and I don't know how it will play out. I did buy guns earlier this year and live in a heavily red area of the state. I have no idea how this country looks or works if it's successful. Coups happen, whether people are prepared or not. Some people recognize it, some don't. But to say you don't really believe something because you don't have a plan is flawed.
gordianot
(15,527 posts)At some point they may need to make a choice. Be ready to make that choice. This does not mean you need to go full survivalist militia.
Kaleva
(38,366 posts)people who think they may at some time suffer a fire in the home install smoke detectors, CO2 detectors, fire extinguishers, have emergency fire escape ladders in upstairs bedrooms and a fire escape plan. A smoker worried about cancer will quit or at least make serious efforts to quit.
You can tell just how seriously someone believes an issue or possible event is by observing what actions they take in response to it. This is human nature backed by science and not just mumbo-jumbo voodoo. The greater the reprieved threat, the greater and more vigorous the response. No response means the issue is of no importance.
BannonsLiver
(18,117 posts)Except for the fact these efforts are aimed at sewing hopelessness and decreasing turnout. Thats what they are about. Period.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Curious.
Kaleva
(38,366 posts)Some people here have said they'll do whatever it takes. At least one said he'll sacrifice his life.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)None of this makes any sense.
Kaleva
(38,366 posts)OP states:"We're in the midst of a coup d'etat".
You have to believe that is actually happening before deciding how to deal with that. If so, you can either join the coup or fight to oppose it. Or maybe you think it's happening but you don't care so then you don't have to do anything.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)How does one fight the coup?
Drive to DC with weapons? Hell, therere still travel restrictions in many states.
Beat up ones trumpy neighbors? Would that help? Im not getting it.
I remember when the buffoon got into office, and people here were all Im gonna wear a safety pin. And people are still afraid to even put a sign in the yard or a sticker on their car...not seeing a big resistance movement coming anytime soon.
Kaleva
(38,366 posts)Its all a whole lotta bullshit.
Layzeebeaver
(1,874 posts)Regardless, it will be a true constitutional crises.
If the military gets involved, then GOP will declare it a "democrat coup"
Cyrano
(15,324 posts)and Pence is a part of it. Let the GOP throw a fit. In fully backing dear leader's crimes, they have forfeited any credibility or right to have a say about anything.
doc03
(36,798 posts)planning this even before Bill Clinton was elected. That was when Rush Limbaugh and Fox News started their
propaganda machine. They demonized Hillary Clinton for decades then they saw a useful idiot Trump to carry out their coup.
This goes far above Trump he is just the useful idiot. I think Hillary knew more than she could say when she talked about the
vast far right conspiracy.
still_one
(96,725 posts)a lot of experience in this
BumRushDaShow
(143,388 posts)This vile scumbag weasel is right at the front of the list (before Raygun, before Limpballs, before Faux Snooze) -
There was an excellent essay in The Atlantic a couple years ago that delves into that here - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/newt-gingrich-says-youre-welcome/570832/
One excerpt -
One of the great problems we have in the Republican Party is that we dont encourage you to be nasty, he told the group. We encourage you to be neat, obedient, and loyal, and faithful, and all those Boy Scout words, which would be great around the campfire but are lousy in politics. For their party to succeed, Gingrich went on, the next generation of Republicans would have to learn to raise hell, to stop being so nice, to realize that politics was, above all, a cutthroat war for powerand to start acting like it.
The speech received little attention at the time. Gingrich was, after all, an obscure, untenured professor whose political experience consisted of two failed congressional bids. But when, a few months later, he was finally elected to the House of Representatives on his third try, he went to Washington a man obsessed with becoming the kind of leader he had described that day in Atlanta. The GOP was then at its lowest point in modern history. Scores of Republican lawmakers had been wiped out in the aftermath of Watergate, and those whod survived seemed, to Gingrich, sadly resigned to a permanent minority mind-set. It was like death, he recalls of the mood in the caucus. They were morally and psychologically shattered.
But Gingrich had a plan. The way he saw it, Republicans would never be able to take back the House as long as they kept compromising with the Democrats out of some high-minded civic desire to keep congressional business humming along. His strategy was to blow up the bipartisan coalitions that were essential to legislating, and then seize on the resulting dysfunction to wage a populist crusade against the institution of Congress itself. His idea, says Norm Ornstein, a political scientist who knew Gingrich at the time, was to build toward a national election where people were so disgusted by Washington and the way it was operating that they would throw the ins out and bring the outs in.
And here we are 42 years later.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(10,036 posts)Gingrich replied: The average American, I will bet you this morning, does not think crime is down, does not think they are safer.
AC: But it is; we are safer, and it is down.
NG: No, thats your view.
AC: These are facts; these are national statistics.
NG: No, but what I said is also a fact. The current view is that liberals have a whole set of statistics which theoretically may be right, but its not working with [where people are.] (garbled)
AC: But what youre saying is liberals use these numbers; they use this sort of magic. These are the FBI statistics. Theyre not a liberal organization. Theyre a crime-fighting organization.
NG: But what I said is equally true: people feel more threatened.
AC: Yes, they feel it, but the facts dont support it.
NG: As a political candidate, Ill go with how people feel, and Ill let you go with the theoreticians.
(Emphasis mine. From: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/aug/27/laura-templeman-disrespect-for-facts-an-unforeseen/)
I could never be in AC's position because I would have replied to But what I said is equally true: people feel more threatened with something along the lines of, "Yes, because of the long-running, unrelenting, well-funded efforts by you and the rest of the vast RW propaganda machine to make them feel that way!"
BumRushDaShow
(143,388 posts)People like him start off doing this sort of thing as "performance art" but then something happens, they snap, and then completely disconnect from reality, forever locked into a distorted world-view and manner of discourse that they can't turn off. It basically becomes all-consuming.
That article from that Atlantic mag established this behavior throughout the entirety of the interview. Here you have Gingrich giving his interview while visiting the Philly Zoo and Philly's Academy of Natural Sciences, and while he is grandiose in his huffing and puffing about himself, he is also continually using his surroundings (the animals at one place and the dinosaur bones at the other) to childishly frame every aspect of life as he sees it, as being destroyed by "teh [sic] liberals".
Dark n Stormy Knight
(10,036 posts)It's just mind boggling that facts simply don't matter. Or, worse. Many researchers seem to be saying that confronting RWers with facts actually makes them more belligerently attached to the lies they believe. I honestly don't know how to function in a world where these cults comprise a significant percentage of the population. Especially when many of them are in power.
bucolic_frolic
(47,287 posts)Coups usually occur in smaller countries where the geographic center of power is in one main central city. The US has many large cities. Not that Washington isn't the center of power, but it is not the only location of power, 50 governors, major metro mayors, Congressional offices in home states and all that. I think any attempted coup in the actual moment would be unevenly applied. There would be regions going right, and regions going left. Consolidating power would prove difficult. it's not at all clear what physical forces would be used to enforce a coup; there are so many, and loyalties are likely to be divided. Fortunately a monolith does not exist that we know of.
So I don't doubt the premise of the OP, but think through the implications and realities however you see them. Most people would probably plan on hunkering down for awhile.
ginnyinWI
(17,276 posts)Hes way down in the polls and wont win.
He just wants to demoralize people so they wont vote.
And the media wants something to talk about!
Whenever he makes these well see kind of statements, thats all it amounts to.
Last ditch effort to try to hang onto his delusion of being a winner.
soothsayer
(38,601 posts)johnthewoodworker
(694 posts)the election, believe them.
TxVietVet
(1,905 posts)Roc2020
(1,718 posts)He will have no choice but to leave. He will then use whatever power he has left to keep his money and keep him and his family out of jail.
Mc Mike
(9,173 posts)Greybnk48
(10,409 posts)Mc Mike
(9,173 posts)bluescribbler
(2,264 posts)According to Wikipedia:
I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)."
"...I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States..."
Cyrano
(15,324 posts)Ergo, if a president and his enablers are in the process of destroying the Constitution, that oath implies that the military should stop them all, Pence included. Since civilian control of the military is a must, the Speaker of the House, who is next in the line of succession, would be appointed acting president until all votes are counted.
wildman76
(292 posts)malaise
(278,437 posts)He stole it then
seta1950
(939 posts)Its horrifying that this is allowed to happen, why ask him about it, does he have a choice? I didnt think so, the media is failing us big time.
Texin
(2,659 posts)him. It will never happen.
Best case scenario: a meteor hitting Earth and destroying it. At least it'd be quick.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,659 posts)America will either stand or fall on the integrity of its institutions and following the constitution.
Pelosi doesnt need the military; she can fight the chicaner herself, if it gets that far, and the military can follow her, not install her.
SCOTUS cannot install Trump as president, they can only rule on cases where they have jurisdiction. If a Governor/SOS certifies a vote in their state and appoints a slate of electors according to state law, SCOTUS will likely not have a role to play, try as Trump might. If the margin is outside the legal trigger for a recount, no SCOTUS.
Its going to be rough and chaotic no doubt, but to resort to military means to reach a justified end defeats the purpose of democracy.
Cyrano
(15,324 posts)If he fails to steal it, he will shriek it was stolen and the armed crazies will be out there creating chaos. I believe that, one way or another, the military will be involved in this election. Better that they get involved under their oath, rather than under the illegal orders of a criminal president (and all of his enablers) who is trying to destroy the Constitution.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,659 posts)Joint chiefs made that clear in a recent memo.
If Pelosi becomes president through legitimate constituents process, the military will follow her, but they wont likely be shooting militia members in the streets, unless Pelosi invokes the INsurrection Act, and that is unlikely.
Trump may try to invoke the Insurrection ACT before Jan. 20 - thats where things get tricky. If people riot and loot and give him justification, it will be a shit show. If people peacefully protest, and he still attempts to call out the military, then thats where the rubber meets the road for American democracy and the Rule of Law. Peaceful Protestors could bring the country to a standstill, and crash the economy by refusing to work, and more importantly, refusing to buy anything, right during Christmas season in the middle of a pandemic. Not a single can of tuna or bag of soup need be thrown. The next few months will show what stuff Americans are made of.
sarisataka
(21,183 posts)it always works out so well...
Just for shits and grins, when happens if Trump wins the Electoral vote when Ms Pelosi is the acting President under this military rule? Would her and military leaders be tried for treason?
BannonsLiver
(18,117 posts)Fascinating, and maybe slightly amusing, some here are so easily rattled by Trump. These posts will not age well. But believe me, Im keeping the receipts.
DSandra
(1,274 posts)BannonsLiver
(18,117 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)The Military installing a new President prior to 1/20/20 is the very definition of a coup. There are legal methods to temporarily or permanently replace a President. Those are our options until Biden is sworn in. If he decides to "stay" after that, a nice group of Secret Service agents will escort him and any supporters off the grounds of the Whitehouse.