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Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:24 PM

I don't think this is the way to go.

There is an agenda to defund cops. I don't think so. We need these guys on OUR side.

Look what's happening. We're getting Mayors and Chiefs declaring for our side. We absolutely need them. It would be better to cultivate an understanding of the matter in terms of fighting for our country, the idea that everything will be forced to change after President Biden has taken over.

But, for goodness sake, we need to tear them out of Trump's twisted little fingers and prepare to use them as we must. You don't get that by telling them you want to defund them.

One of the very first things Trump did was make friends with the cops, propping them up, smiling in their faces and getting them on his side. THAT'S what we need to tend to, not threatening them with extinction. Anyway, we want them there. What we need is for them and their culture to change.

We could create a nationwide training program that all cops would have to attend in order to get hired anywhere. It could be a licensing requirement. And, then we could control the narrative they get in dealing with citizens. It may seem like we have that now, but we don't.

Making a police chief's budget harder for training is not the way to go. Isn't that what "defunding" means? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not advocating more useless dialogue. But, now is not the time to stay on their bad side. Open up the plans and include them in saving our country.

This doesn't need to quiet righteous anger in the least. It just means working smarter to get what you want.


































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Arrow 55 replies Author Time Post
Reply I don't think this is the way to go. (Original post)
EndlessWire Jun 2020 OP
Archetypist Jun 2020 #1
RiverbendsJoe Jun 2020 #2
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #27
RiverbendsJoe Jun 2020 #48
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #51
jcmaine72 Jun 2020 #42
RiverbendsJoe Jun 2020 #49
Me. Jun 2020 #3
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #28
Me. Jun 2020 #46
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #53
Doremus Jun 2020 #4
cayugafalls Jun 2020 #5
BComplex Jun 2020 #13
cayugafalls Jun 2020 #14
BComplex Jun 2020 #15
cayugafalls Jun 2020 #16
BComplex Jun 2020 #26
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #17
cayugafalls Jun 2020 #19
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #20
cayugafalls Jun 2020 #24
FM123 Jun 2020 #6
MoonlitKnight Jun 2020 #9
Blasphemer Jun 2020 #11
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #7
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #29
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #43
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #54
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #55
Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2020 #8
saidsimplesimon Jun 2020 #10
tonedevil Jun 2020 #45
Mosby Jun 2020 #12
Coventina Jun 2020 #18
EarthFirst Jun 2020 #21
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #31
Sympthsical Jun 2020 #22
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #33
Sympthsical Jun 2020 #50
rockfordfile Jun 2020 #23
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #34
Hotler Jun 2020 #25
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #37
greyl Jun 2020 #30
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #38
Raine Jun 2020 #32
roamer65 Jun 2020 #35
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #39
Initech Jun 2020 #36
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #40
DFW Jun 2020 #41
area51 Jun 2020 #44
EndlessWire Jun 2020 #52
bigtree Jun 2020 #47

Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:28 PM

1. it feels knee-jerk to me

I get that it is a quick way to reduce the brutality, but it's not any kind of long-term solution. That would require massive policy changes, possibly at a federal level.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:30 PM

2. "Defunding" means that I'm not going to pay somebody

to kneel on my neck. If YOU want to pay somebody to kneel on your neck while you reason with them and offer them some training, please go for it and let me know how that works out. It's your money.

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Response to RiverbendsJoe (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 11:58 PM

27. Don't make it personal.

I will pay for someone to protect me when I can't. I sure as shit don't accept when someone doing a misdemeanor gets the death penalty instead.

But, let's have an adult dialogue. Now is our moment! Let's restructure at a national level. What can we do?




























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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #27)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM

48. It is personal. And you're not in charge of the conversation.

So you can have an adult dialogue with the crack of my ass if you want to, but that’s the only part of me that’s willing to dialogue with you until you climb down from Privilege Peak and learn how to address your fellow citizens as your equals.

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Response to RiverbendsJoe (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 03:15 PM

51. Your reply is an example

of defeatism. You are already defeated. You are so hostile that I doubt you can have any meaningful dialogue with anyone. You'll never get past your own nose.

Since you do not wish to discuss other ideas, tell me how good your own program for change is going? What are the results of your own "go to hell" campaign for equality? Or are they just lying on the pavement?

You can't get there by yourself. You want to, but you can't.

Have a nice day.

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Response to RiverbendsJoe (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:42 AM

42. It also means you won't be paying someone to find your daughter's rapist

Or your grandmother's mugger, or the guy who burglarized your house and walked off with whatever you worked hard to buy.

I dunno. Like you, I'm no fan of neck's on knees. However, I prefer reform over defunding/dismantling. The alternative (vigilante justice meted out by armed militias...which is what always seemingly fills law and order vacuums) is simply too horrible to contemplate.

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Response to jcmaine72 (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:36 PM

49. Don't have a daughter, grandmas are dead.

My apartment has never been robbed. Cops don’t tend to solve our cases anyway.
You can’t “train” a racist knucklehead not to be a racist knucklehead, and the non-racist non-knuckleheads have never once succeeded in controlling their racist knucklehead brethren.
It’ll take more than just a few tweaks to turn this into a just system. There’s no baby in this dirty bath water.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:31 PM

3. Can't Agree...They've Been Killing Black People Way Before The WH Menace

THey've been out of control for a long time and I think it's not only time to defund them, take that military gear away from them too. If they can walk by an old man lying on the ground bleeding, there is no changing them and they need to be replaced.

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Response to Me. (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:01 AM

28. The Institutions CAN be changed.

You are kidding yourself if you think we can get along without cops.

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #28)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 09:08 AM

46. I Am Not Advocating Getting Along Without Police, No One Is

but what I don't condone and we Can do without are those who are brutes and bullies. They have no place in such positions and brutalizing the citizens who pay their salaries is simply not acceptable. Just as with everyone else in society there are rules and those who obey them stay, the others do not. There is a conversation on MSNBC right now talking about cops who have contempt for citizens and that can no longer be tolerated.

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Response to Me. (Reply #46)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 03:37 PM

53. I agree.

But, this has been known for a good long while, with the same results. Bad cops survive while the victims do not. We need a definitive, wide-sweeping, no nonsense change in our police that has to be forced on them. It has to be forced because they have failed to do it themselves.

I just don't think that defunding training is the way to go. I think we need new Federal rules coupled with new requirements and Federal funding that can be pulled for any incidence of downright murder by a cop. Plus, I love the idea of cop insurance that they have to pay for themselves. A new type of license to qualify for, or something. Some kind of educational requirement? Something.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:34 PM

4. We probably need a police force in some form. I like the idea of removing all federal funds if

a specific police dept is found to use excessive force or if they don't undergo some form of de-escalation training.

I'm tired of my tax dollars going into the pockets of thugs and people with rage issues.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:34 PM

5. You need to weed out the white supremacist somehow.

In the 2006 bulletin, the FBI detailed the threat of white nationalists and skinheads infiltrating police in order to disrupt investigations against fellow members and recruit other supremacists. The bulletin was released during a period of scandal for many law enforcement agencies throughout the country, including a neo-Nazi gang formed by members of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department who harassed black and Latino communities. Similar investigations revealed officers and entire agencies with hate group ties in Illinois, Ohio and Texas.


FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

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Response to cayugafalls (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:09 PM

13. White supremacists and arrogant assholes. I don't want to de-fund the police departments,

I want the police departments changed, cleansed of racists, totally investigated by independent parties...I mean DEEPLY investigated, and more highly educated cops hired, which MAY cost more!

I actually think if we got rid of all the dirty cops, especially the ones with seniority who call the shots, the good cops would be a lot happier without the pressure on themselves.

But, like I said in another post somewhere, white people need to organize in every state to start and KEEP putting pressure on police departments, city councils, and state and federal officials to STOP the two-class treatment of people in this country. Police have one set of laws, and the rest of us have another. That has to stop. Immediately.

And we can't stop until we have completed this change in the culture.

We need independent investigations of every single incidence of brutality, and we need to totally purge our police departments of racists and arrogant assholes on a power trip.

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Response to BComplex (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:38 PM

14. My thought is that if the FBI monitors these groups and knew they were infiltrating

they must know who they are. Problem is, the FBI is most likely full of racist as well. You are not going to get help from the government to solve this problem, at least not at this time. Like you mentioned, it will take the community to become active and get city councils and others to help clean up this mess.

Unfortunately, with systemic racism, it is not just the police departments. They are in the city councils, boards of education, etc...the system needs to be torn down and rebuilt somehow. I am not sure how that happens.

Cultural change takes decades. It takes educational changes, systemic changes in every facet of life.

We are at the base of the mountain. It only gets harder from this point forward.

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Response to cayugafalls (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:41 PM

15. Decades haven't done it. We need it NOW. We need it yesterday.

We definitely needed it before George Floyd was murdered.

Times up. There's got to be a reckoning.

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Response to BComplex (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:53 PM

16. I understand what you are saying.

I am just trying to understand how that change happens quickly within the current system.

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Response to cayugafalls (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 08:58 PM

26. I know. I'm listening to MSNBC right now, and so many chiefs of police are really trying to get it

right. Then there are so many that are in total denial...like NYC right now, for instance.

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Response to cayugafalls (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:53 PM

17. The police system itself is built on white supremacy.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:00 PM

19. No argument here. I know it's history.

So tear it all down? Start over. Psyche evals, compassionate training, hire from within communities...etc.

Or no police at all? What is the solution?

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Response to cayugafalls (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:12 PM

20. I think it has to be abolished and we look at other models to keep our communities safe.

It'll take a lot of work -- the field of social work is also riddled with white supremacy, for example -- but maybe this can be the catalyst for working for better ways.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:24 PM

24. To expand on your example, racism is endemic to the entire culture of America.

There has to be solid good education as a number 1 priority for everyone. No more elitist bullshit and schools based on income.

I agree it will be a lot of work.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:38 PM

6. Defunding is not a dirty word.

Defunding the police does not mean stripping a department entirely of its budget, or abolishing it altogether. It’s just about scaling police budgets back and reallocating those resources to other agencies, says Lynda Garcia, policing campaign director at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. “A lot of what we advocate for is investment in community services — education, medical access… You can call it ‘defunding,’ but it’s just about directing or balancing the budget in a different way.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/defund-the-police-1007254/

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Response to FM123 (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:44 PM

9. This

That $3 billion a year in LA could be put to better use.

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Response to FM123 (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:50 PM

11. Exactly. Just like we need to defund the military... nt

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:40 PM

7. "We need these guys on OUR side."

Whose side?

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:27 AM

29. Well, who do you think??

Trump is a dictator! Let's repeat that for those who don't get it:

TRUMP IS A DICTATOR!

He is doing his best to take over our country, aided and abetted by the
GOP. He is destroying our country!

If you think that racist cops are our biggest problem, please think again! TRUMP IS OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM. We may have an ongoing problem worthy of marching, and fighting against, but if we can't get rid of Trump et al, all our various populations are at risk regardless. We won't be having this discussion if he wins in November--or maybe even if he doesn't!

We can only be classed as Against Trump, or For Trump. So, you pick your side! I want cops to pick our side, but be prepared for heavy changes. "'Cause change is gonna come."





























































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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 08:02 AM

43. Cop brutality happened before Trump, and it will continue to happen after as long as the current

concept of police is in place. It's outside of politics. I don't want cops on my side.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 03:51 PM

54. It's a practical matter.

You just don't know what's going to happen with Trump. To be blunt, if we have to actually FIGHT, in the streets for our country, then you will suddenly be very welcoming to cops who have heavy weaponry and the knowledge to fight. It is simply a tactical matter.

YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANY CHANGE, if you cannot overcome the distance between cops and citizens. And, Trump and his buddies are steadfastly destroying any community that is deemed not suitable to live in the United States. He is a fucking Hitler clone! If we stand around and say, "That's just silly," well, no it's not! Wake up!

I'd rather have a cop on my side who will look the other way if I'm being naughty in defense of my country! And, that means you, too! You are my country, and I fucking need you! Wake up!

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 04:58 PM

55. "I'd rather have a cop on my side who will look the other way if I'm being naughty in defense of my

country!"


┳┻|
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┳┻| psst! hey kid!
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┻┳|
┳┻| _
┻┳| •.•) I
┳┻|⊂ノ don't
┻┳| want
┳┻| cops
┻┳| at
┳┻| all

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:43 PM

8. I doubt the word "defund" is going to get much traction, from VP Biden or any other major candidate

We will hear a lot about refocusing, retraining and reforming law enforcement, though, as we should.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:47 PM

10. I do not paint protesters or police officers

with a broad brush. This is a moment in time to reflect on and define the path forward. imo

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 09:02 AM

45. Protesters each have a story...

 

as to why they are doing what they are doing, police are trained and have a very uniform way of thinking and dealing with things.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 04:59 PM

12. The fix is quite simple

Start holding management accountable.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 05:53 PM

18. FTP & ACAB

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:16 PM

21. Clearly you have not been paying attention...

The good cop meme is fucking shot.

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Response to EarthFirst (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:34 AM

31. I clearly have been.

I see what's going on. I see cops making decisions here. I want that dialogue to be driven and guided by We The People. We cannot afford to lose this fight. This is the moment.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:17 PM

22. It's what we have as leverage

“You won’t clean up your act? Here’s the punishment.”

Asking nicely doesn’t work. Look at what’s happening. Peaceful protests and people still being brutalized with impunity. These people will not give up power easily or voluntarily.

There has to an incentive for reform. “Reform or fewer funds.”

Works for me. It’s a tool. A bludgeonous one to be certain. But people with their kind of unchecked power only understand other power.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:03 AM

33. Everything was going relatively well, except for

you know, the riots, the fires, and all of the out of control people. Then, the Orange Turd came off his throne and told the Governors to "dominate" or else. The next day, they started using gas.

Look, I agree that the original cop bad boys need to be prosecuted. We all agree that this has happened before, and this has got to stop. But, nothing will be accomplished with Trump in office.

And, I'm not hearing any graduated incentive. I am hearing, "We want to cut your budget." That won't work. And, I am not sure how Federal funding would affect the state's sovereign powers.

But, I think we should reach underneath with some national program and get more of some type of educational scenario and a logical, simple "comply or else" consequence.

Federal money is used all the time to force people to conform to standards. So, some type of revised standard with training involved, together with ADDED money, not money to take away that they don't have anyway, and lower level education where we teach our children tolerance, understanding, and respect for each other might be wrapped up in some kind of Federal program.

And, for sure vetting the cops is without saying.

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 02:56 PM

50. They probably killed a 75 year old man

Then 57 of them resigned because pushing down was “just following orders.”

You have to hit a point - which I long ago have - where this isn’t even passingly okay. Think on that. 57 cops thought brutalizing a 75 year old and leaving him to bleed was just fine.

All of them.

We don’t have bad apples. We have an orchard that is good for little else than manure.

You can’t argue under this. That time is long gone. You have to say what is Right or not right. You have to start pulling what levers we have.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:22 PM

23. I don't agree. The bad ones should be fired. My taxes pay for them

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:11 AM

34. How do we disagree?

The bad ones should be fired and/or prosecuted.

But, you do see how Trump has pardoned and freed others that peers said were not suitable for their positions. How do we deal with that? Right this second Trump and his buddies are attempting to legitimize a prosecution of his enemies. Something more than "bad cops" is going on.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:29 PM

25. I'm thinking cops are like repugs or are repugs. you're not..

going to change their mind or all of a sudden have a come to the light moment of clarity. Being a dick is a life choice.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:19 AM

37. You could be right.

So, President Biden comes out and explains to them the new way, and they will be let go if they don't follow it.

You can't base defunding cop departments on the fact that a lot--or some, at any rate--are little shits. Their chiefs need to explain the facts of life to the bad ones. Weed them out. It will take time.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:32 AM

30. Cops sometimes take liberties they aren't entitled to, and the FOP of course always wants more money

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Response to greyl (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:20 AM

38. Then they should be out of a job. n/t

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 12:44 AM

32. I agree nt

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:13 AM

35. You make whites a minority in the police forces.

That’s what you do as the first step.

No more than 40 pct.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:24 AM

39. I disagree.

But, it's a question of racial animosity, distrust of one another, and community dynamics. I don't have a better answer. I am not a fan of racial quotas.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:18 AM

36. Hey I'm all for having a well funded police department.

What I'm against is the militarization of the police. A police department does not need enough weapons and ammo to take out a small army. They don't need tanks. They need common sense and decency.

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Response to Initech (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:33 AM

40. It's difficult

to agree when the bad guys can out gun you from the street. It's even worse when you don't know who is who.

But, yeah, common sense and decency apply here. Just seems like basic common sense that if you put your knee on someone's neck, you run the risk of killing them or crippling them. The man was down.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 01:41 AM

41. What is needed: new national guidelines for what it takes to get hired as a cop

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2020, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

An overweight, steroid-addled skinhead who gets his jollies breaking people's arms with his nightstick should NOT be a model for someone hired to serve and protect. The likelihood is that he will do neither. A recent vet of Iraq or Afghanistan who has PTSD needs to find another line of work. There will never be 100% elimination of mistakes, but four cops squeezing the life out of some unarmed guy who may or may not have inadvertently had a fake $20 bill is not a mistake. It's murder. Knocking an unarmed 75 year old guy to the concrete pavement and leaving him there to bleed is not a mistake. Thinking you can do that and keep your job as a cop is what should be the mistake.

We need reworked, stricter and diligently enforced guidelines on what it means to be a cop, and pay that gives decent people an incentive to become one.

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Response to DFW (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 08:51 AM

44. +1 n/t

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Response to DFW (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 03:28 PM

52. Somewhere here on DU

a poster stated that it could be a good idea to require something equivalent to malpractice insurance, with the idea that after a certain amount of complaints, the insurance is withdrawn and the cop loses his ability to get hired by someone else. I think this is a great idea! If we combined this requirement with a lot of regulation change, structure change, we might at least get all the departments reformed.

National cop insurance might be something very worth looking into by the government.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Sat Jun 6, 2020, 09:10 AM

47. disbanding police depts. has worked in extreme cases

Last edited Mon Jun 8, 2020, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

...replacing them is probably a good idea.

On August 2, 2012, the city of Camden and Camden County announced that the department would be disbanded in favor of a new county police department, the Camden County Police Department. The new department took over for the Camden Police Department on May 1, 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_Police_Department_(New_Jersey)


How Camden, New Jersey, Reformed Its Police Department
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department

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