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Fri May 29, 2020, 09:39 PM

My father's Covid Denial: An Update

I recently shared my lack of understanding why some people are pushing that their faith justifies somehow endangering other people's lives, be it not wearing masks or violating public health orders to hold congregations. And how specifically it has reared itself with my own father's attitude on the virus. I mentioned that he is a cancer survivor.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=13482116

When I tried to call him on it, tried to get through to him, he abruptly hung up on me. Admittedly I came in pretty hot, and there was a lot going on with being worried for him, fed up with his politics, and another family member on my mom's side (whom my dad despises) also spouting nonsense talking points and being a risk to both my grandmother and mom, 90 and 60+ with COPD, respectively. As an aside, you would think the fact I can repeat them verbatim back at each other once in awhile and they get all their information from the same place, that my dad might realize if he doesn't want to be compared with a despicable person in his judgment, not agreeing with him on just about every subject might be a good place to start.

Having since received a few txts from him in reply to my attempt to let it lay. I basically made the point to him that medicaid and doctors were the means that helped him defeat his throat cancer, simplifying cause it was via text, the notion that via science we were able to develop with our cool brains over generations, a sense in our society that we should take care of each other's health, and the skill of doctors who pursue a life tending to the needs of others, he was saved. I specifically added something to the effect that there may have been something guiding the doctors and the dollars, leaving room for a deity's involvement, but apparently I wasn't specific or blunt enough phrasing it that way. My second sentence did include a statement asking him to be mindful and not buy into nonsense. I had thought it would be more obvious than I guess it was that I was referring to the conspiracy theory, death toll denying, talking point stuff we had argued about, and since we hadn't actually discussed religion or the period when he fought cancer, the two statements weren't as easily conflated as they were in his mind.

Cause his response txt the next morning was quite hot, basically accusing me of forgetting God and how sad that was. Now, I have been respectful of his religion, his beliefs and really appreciate most of the time the good it brings him to have that in his life, and tried to overlook the times he veers into using it as a cudgel, a way to dismiss people he disagrees with (including occasionally myself), or the times it goes dark and hypocritical. Haven't always succeeded, but never in a blow things up sort of way. Knowing how he felt and how he was saying God wouldn't let him die from Covid-19 cause, ya know, he hadn't let him die from cancer, and that I was trying to actually get through to him, I had felt I did a pretty good job leaving space him for his faith and respecting that God may very well have been involved at some level microscopic or willpower or one of those nights needing a light to get through struggles I never saw, but goodness. It wasn't like he beat cancer visiting a revival tent and having some man speaking tongues wave a ten foot snake in his face. He had some of the best doctors at the most respected cancer treatment hospital in our state looking after him. I tried to let what I believe or don't stay entirely out of what I said, cause frankly it wasn't relevant to what I wanted him to understand about listening once again to good doctors and the best universities and health institutions.

So, being an imperfect being and given an ultimatum about not telling him what to think and given since our phone call and my text I'd found out my step-mom (whom I do get along with quite well more often than not) had lost her grandma, in Detroit, in a nursing home, and that just that day the very reason I found out he was saying what he was about the virus and what he thought of precautions was he had called my sister to make peace over a disagreement he had been in with her (somehow that detail didn't make it to me before I called to get on his case about being safe, unfortunately), it getting back to me that he was growing annoyed I wasn't responding to his texts, and dismissing an explanation that I might, ya know, be backing off given all those circumstances as giving me too much credit... I've decided it's time to respond.

Before-hand I've made sure my sister is forewarned its coming, I've talked with the step-mom and made sure she understand whatever goes on between my dad and I, or her and my dad in the future for that matter (she is the second step-mom afterall), that needn't have anything to do with the two of us, that I care about her and my brother, worry about her and she can call me anytime she likes. That as long as it doesn't cause her too many problems with him or if she doesn't give a hoot if it does, if she still wants to visit with me (when we can again) when dad is out of town, or if my step-brother needs me, she knows that's still ok with me and where to find me.

If you're interested, this is how that went. Because I am fed up. And I'm not always a nice person when my kindness is taken advantage of for too long.

Thank you for letting me vent and share and being a supportive community. I think the only reason I slept at all the morning after the whole thing was making my first post here after a decade-plus of lurkerdom. Apologies if this is the wrong forum or I missed a line somewhere stepping up. There are a lot of sensitive subjects here but I do feel they are relevant to current events as much as personal events, and I do have a sense of hope some may find a shared catharsis or inspiration with all I have said. Or that it'll just blow by, not upset anyone unduly, and let me put it out of my head and behind me. Either would be cool.

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Reply My father's Covid Denial: An Update (Original post)
Shiv May 2020 OP
samnsara May 2020 #1
Shiv May 2020 #4
Shiv May 2020 #2
Shiv Jun 2020 #12
Laelth May 2020 #3
alwaysinasnit May 2020 #5
irisblue May 2020 #6
Joinfortmill May 2020 #7
42bambi May 2020 #8
Shiv May 2020 #9
Ilsa May 2020 #10
MLAA May 2020 #11
KY_EnviroGuy Jun 2020 #13

Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:41 PM

1. vent away! (((hugs)))

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Response to samnsara (Reply #1)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:43 PM

4. ty! (nt)

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:42 PM

2. (no subject)


I think, given any of our experiences with how anyone he has a dispute with tends to have their words twisted and arguments spun in the retelling, the sheer length of what my response entails and not wanting to summarily be told a conversation is over and hung up on before things escalate or can be resolved, the choice to post this here where you can see my words yourself is the least bad choice among st those considered. I accept responsibility ahead of time and recognize both however unfair handling it this way may be perceived even given my explained concerns and that, yes, part of why I am upset is the tendency we all have to dislike qualities in others that bother us in ourselves. I'm not unaware of the part of this that is attributable to that tendency. I generally make a strong effort to have it in me to admit when I am wrong if presented with something that convinces me so, to preface as a formula quite often my answers to questions from someone hoping I know or have advice on a subject "I think it means this / works this way, but I could be wrong". I know that I don't like being wrong or admitting it, and so I work on it.

Also, as a reminder and for anyone who didn't specifically know, there has already been a several year stretch during my early adulthood where we didn't talk and weren't a part of each other's lives in any meaningful way. The best I ever understood how that came about is that, essentially, I wouldn't apologize to my first step-mom for things I said to her when standing up for myself and was therefor too disrespectful to be bothered with. And given the ultimatum I was given about not telling each other what to think in order to get along, I will definitely be getting back to that.


The content of my text after you ended our conversation said:
"Medicaid and doctors were the means you were saved from cancer, whatever may have guided them to do so. Just be mindful n don't buy too much into nonsense".

I think you've had it pointed out to you already but I'll clarify my argument was from concern you weren't taking the precautions and protecting yourself anymore like you indicated when we talked over a month ago. Considering where I know you get your information generally and how you tend to think about things, it was very reassuring to me when we talked initially that you seemed pretty serious about keeping people at a distance while you worked and were doing advised precautions like lots of hand washing, wearing masks, criticizing people for using hand dryers in public restrooms and the like. I felt like, okay, that's one person I'd worry about that I can worry less about and focus my energy and attention elsewhere. And I wont bother right now but I have a lot to get into about that, too. So it would have been pretty great, I know I came in hot with a bit of an ambush and I had my reasons for approaching it that way, but it would have been pretty great if you are still being serious and protecting yourself, whatever opinion or feelings or beliefs you may have about the situation, you had in any way indicated that so I would be reassured not to worry about you as much.

I'm not telling you what to think, at any rate, no more than where you get your information and opinions from. But my profit motive here is different than they have. What I gain if you listen to me at least in-so-far as being cautious, is less worry my dad will catch this virus and die or suffer long-term health damage. Because not everyone who survives and recovers from a hospital stay is just magically like they were before, there can be long-term lung damage that requires oxygen treatment for a time or for the rest of your life. There can be organ failure that leads to needing dialysis or transplants. Limbs clot and require amputation. It is not just the death toll that is terrible. Aside from that, if you really listened to what I was saying and were open to being persuaded while not necessarily being persuaded during any given discussion, the only other thing I really stand to gain is a deprogrammed father who treats me with respect. Or somewhere short of that, avoids spreading hateful false information in my presence in deference to boundaries.

Cause what do the people you actually listen to have for a profit motive for their bullshit? They sell false cures, they make millions off advertisers, they cover for the abject failure of their political cause to prevent tens of thousands of deaths in a desperate effort to not lose political power, all while working from a studio in their house, doing the things to protect themselves they say shouldn't be required of you by public health orders. You don't know them, they don't care about what happens to you or people like you, yet you value their opinion and telling you what to think over your own son. And you have the gall to retreat into an 'agree to disagree' mentality on this, giving me a ridiculous ultimatum that we can get along if we don't tell each other what to think. This might be mature when it comes to which sports team has a better QB, or what a marginal tax rate should be or personal belief systems, but on something with real world consequences of this magnitude it is the refuge of someone refusing to be accountable for their beliefs and actions, unable to admit even the possibility of being wrong or being open to facts and arguments persuading them, and demanding that there should be no consequences for their complicity in events because of some demented notion that all opinions even dangerous detestable ones are somehow equally valid and it is unfair of someone to call you on it, treat you differently for it, or be unable to get along with you for being the kind of person who could be so callous.

Why I am really pissed off, the reason I haven't just let this slide and said whatever about it, is your first response to what I texted.

"You are forgetting God and that is sad".

I can understand you were still upset the next day and chose to read what I said the way you did. But when I said "whatever may have guided them to do so" I was doing what is called "Leaving room for God", specifically, God's involvement in this case. If you took the second sentence, after our conversation about conspiracy theories about Bill Gates killing people or whatever and death toll denial and right-wing news sources, that when I said "be mindful and try not to much to buy into nonsense", that I in any way meant your religion and not all of that bullshit we actually discussed, I take no responsibility for you giving me no benefit of the doubt whatsoever in the concern I was showing for you. That part is on you. And I don't see how it could be remotely possible when someone deliberately takes the time to leave room for God's involvement and your beliefs in something they say, as forgetting God. Given the space and respect I've shown here and over the years for your beliefs, and you having very little if any idea what mine are, the way whenever I am deemed to be wrong on a subject it seems to come back to me not actively sharing your exact beliefs and a dismissive and disrespectful attitude to excuse not even considering where I am coming from or that facts or reason I use don't matter, is something I've unfortunately grown accustomed to.


As I've said, I think most everyone knows to some degree but to clarify, it's not like I haven't already had a long stretch of not getting along with you. I've long ago learned, after what, four years or so of my early adulthood, that I don't need you in my life, I just would prefer it when it does nt come tied to too many requirements that aren't worth the effort. All I do really need from you is for you to be alive and not engage in unnecessarily high-risk behavior. I don't mean recreational craziness here, I can understand that, but liken it more to someone who has had it with a loved one continually driving intoxicated well past their driving skill and refusing attempts to see reason. Wear a mask. Wash your hands. Keep your distance. Don't breathe or spit on strangers. Not that difficult.

Your effort to try to take control of the situation and play at being the adult or mature in a "I wont tell you what to think, don't tell me what to think, and we can get along" way makes it seem like I'm trying to get along with you for some reason. Ultimatums like that aren't going to work in this context anymore than they did the last time. I'm not 17 anymore. You're not initially defending me for standing up to my first step-mom to people proudly and then later deciding I was too disrespectful with her after you reconciled with her. Then cutting me out. And not coming to my graduation. And not really having me back in your life and getting along again until things finished falling apart with her. I stood by what I had to say and accepted those consequences while you chose not to have your son in your life until your situation made it convenient for you again. (And as an aside, one of the things I have done in my life that I feel was among st the most mature and cleared my conscience on any subject was visiting her and making peace about it all. I didn't apologize for the argument I made or how I made it, but that it drove a wedge between us I was sorry for and that I hadn't done anything sooner to alleviate that. If I hadn't done that before she passed it probably would be one of my regrets.)

On a related subject, with you being out and everything going on I have been putting a hold on bringing up the problem I have with the way you handled another matter like this. When we talked a month or so ago, I at least spoke up enough to point out that with how you don't work on cars in some ways like you used to, for good reasons I agree, that you ask my brother to handle the repairs for you. I didn't elaborate at the time and figured at least I said as much as I did since it might dawn on you what I was getting at. Now, I am not defending or attacking any of the other people involved but pointing out, when you have a pregnant younger relative who needs help with something, whatever problem you may have with them, you set that aside at least until after the baby arrives and deal with it later. In my opinion of how a man acts, at any rate. Since you couldn't reasonably do the repair yourself, and since you normally have my brother do repairs on your vehicles or around the house and to help others for you when you can't, even if you had to offer to pay him yourself I would expect you to ask him to do the job for you. He doesn't need to do it for her, if he is doing it in your stead on your behalf. It's then being done for you because of your desire to see it done. I'm pointing this all out for two reasons besides just my disapproval; as an example of a pattern of not temporarily setting aside conflicts with others and rising above that during a situation, because of your responsibility as family or as a show of character, and frankly, because despite my entire lack of knowing I could get it done I lobbied for permission to use our garage, climbed under that car and gave it a try myself. Rather than let my pregnant niece crawl under a car in a snowy driveway or parking lot and do it her damn self. Because I simply would not have that. Whatever the circumstances surrounding that whole situation and other persons role in all of it is absolutely irrelevant to me for my purposes here, because you could have chosen to have the character, manhood and attitude a younger version of you apparently instilled in me to see past all that and tried to see the right thing done. I'm wondering if it was reflected glory that actually instilled these lessons but that's a deeper, separate subject.

Back to the matter at hand. It's absolutely ridiculous to me that someone would try to hide behind "don't try to tell me what to think and we can get along" sort of ultimatum thinking they are being a mature, grown-ass responsible adult. If you can't stand being confronted on your politics and opinions, living in a democracy, by a close family member, and then want to act like it would be unfair for you to be held accountable for the results of those politics, it just seems absolutely childish to me. You know I think you are doing/participating in something that is wrong, you don't want to be called on it, listen to my reasoning and you want to act like you're the good guy for saying we can't get along if I'm going to continue to share my opinions and challenge you. When you make quite the hobby of sharing other people's thoughts and memes you like and trying to annoy and irritate people for no more noble purpose then entertainment.

I've spent the past 5-6 years shrugging off and not saying something so you could know my opinion of a long list of memes, talking points, and general trash you say when I am over to see you about a wide range of political subjects that make me uncomfortable. I think you've complained about not getting to see me more during this period and it's maybe been a bit unfair of me not to let you know a non-zero portion of that is not knowing if this time I come over I'm going to have to hear "N-word this" or "Obama's an this or that" or some misogynistic nonsense about woman's role in society today. I sorta took the attitude you had a hobby I didn't like and tried to overlook it, even though that wasn't being very honest with myself. And to be clear, keep in mind I'm not some stranger you're trying to piss off for entertainment. I've done this, because you're my father and I have a pretty good idea disagreeing with you when you do this would lead to a confrontation and previously, it hasn't been worth the stress to me to do so. So, I wouldn't say you've been telling me what to think like you accused me of doing, but you've certainly shared an awful lot of what you think and not heard back a lot of what I think of that. That's on me, that was previously my choice. Except maybe once on climate change but you didn't really get what I was saying about that.

Anyways, things are not the same now. It was already on my back-burner that putting up with this nonsense wasn't something I could reasonably do without at least letting you know I didn't care for it and needed to establish some boundaries for much longer. I've felt I at least owed it to you to know where I was coming from, why I found these political beliefs unacceptable, and give you some opportunity at offering to reign it in when we hang out. It's no longer something I can get along with. The repercussions and the culpability of those who make common cause and get into bed politically with that movement are morally and ethically repugnant to me. If being on the same side and repeating the same propaganda as neo-nazis, confederate traitors and white nationalist doesn't give you pause, make you open to as I said being persuaded by facts and sound reason (not that you have to be persuaded by any given example but that you admit you can be persuaded perhaps by something at least), then it gets really difficult to distinguish you from them. Ultimately, it might not be worth the energy to do so. And if I get started on how ridiculous it is to wrap yourself in patriotism, pro-military, religious sentiment when we are talking about the two bloodiest fights the U.S. military has ever had, with Nazis and with the Confederacy, and you thinking you are on some sort of righteous morale crusade for this country, I wont stop. A callous disregard for the lives of minorities, the poor, the disabled and the elderly; trying to cut Food Assistance during a massive unemployment crisis amid st a global pandemic; fighting in court to overturn the very law giving 20 million plus people health care who might have no coverage and no hope at not being bankrupted by treatment if they even receive any... This is what Jesus would do? I'm the one whom has forgotten God? Are you messing with me or are you really, serious.


About the maths. To be clear, this isn't a matter of proving people should be afraid or not aft aid, but about the character of individuals based on their attitude and actions to save or not save lives.

I went down a pretty long diatribe about the magnitude of death from this pandemic and why denying it is on scale with holocaust denial (actually, it is more on scale with denying the entirety of WWII when you consider the global death toll no mitigation strategy could result in). After some nonsense about the aforementioned Bill Gates, which I will be coming back around to, there was a comment made about there being no cases in the Upper Peninsula and yet they were locked down. There is a whole lot of logical fall icy about preventing the spread of a pandemic, yes to areas it hasn't reached yet there, but it wasn't even true. It took all of 5-10 minutes to look this up after giving your statement the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake it may have been true and just pointing out now they were opened up (and "yeah how much did they have to beat the governor's ass to get her to do that". see misogyny). There were 108 cases in the U.P. as of May 24 and 15 deaths for a population over 310,000. So I decided maybe the excuse would be well there weren't any when I looked or when I was told that or whatever and went back. Again, all off this and the average all causes death stuff coming up next didn't even take 10 minutes to look up. So I checked and on March 18th, back when lock-downs were starting, there were already 8 cases in the U.P. With the incubation period of the virus and the time it takes for symptoms to reach a severity that someone goes to a hospital and is tested, a lock-down doesn't affect the rate of spread for awhile. So, three weeks later by April 8th there were 54 cases. Now the lock-down had been well in effect and maybe people have been obeying it for three weeks, another three weeks after having 54 cases on April 29th there were 94 cases in the U.P. Instead of going up by a factor over 6, they only barely doubled during the second three week period. And, as I mentioned, nearly a month later, the case rate has grown much more slowly to 108, and the entire region has entered phase one of a reopening plan. Because of the numbers and the apparent success of the stay at home order.

Some other information about how acting like rural areas aren't affected and don't need to worry is misguided. Urban centers have several large hospitals for their populace, usually, and sometimes dozens. They have staff and retired staff and reserves and resources to call on in a crisis. The ENTIRE Upper Peninsula is reporting only 674 hospital beds for 310,000 people across a very wide area. Only 59 intensive care beds, which, by the way on May 24th, 41 of them were occupied. And only 94 ventilators. If the rate of spread had continued to go up, very quickly things would've gone all Italy. There would have been doctors and triage nurses having to decide which patients would be treated and which would be left to die. And likely people who never made it to a hospital in the first place. When this hits rural American, when people travel and bring it home or go on vacation and bring it there, it is incredibly dangerous to those communities. If you haven't heard what is happening to the Navajo Nation... I can't even. Sorry, moving on.

I made a point about how death from all causes is reported and averaged year to year, and how you can look this up in any given jurisdiction to see how many more people are dying right now than tend to during an equivalent period, and told you around the world this was spiking dramatically when you tried to deny the death toll and that the numbers are what they are and are from Covid-19. Common sense and medical experts will tell you, since everyone who is dying at home from cardiac arrest or respiratory distress isn't receiving a post-mortem diagnostic test, it is likely more deaths are going unreported as Covid deaths than are being misdiagnosed (Or, as some conspiracy theories go, being falsely reported to gin up profits for hospitals. If it is happening, where are the investigations and charges? Falsifying a death certificate is a crime and so is Medicaid fraud.) So I am telling you well more than 100,000 people have already died with Covid. If you buy into the notion stay-at-home orders and going out of business will cause more deaths from suicide and drug use than over 100,000... it's on you to prove that. Most people know its a ridiculous allegation on its face. And since it's a general colloquial saying that 9 out of 10 small business startups fail in their first 5 years, you might want to not be advocating we should stop people from opening businesses cause too many people will hang themselves when it doesn't work out. You can always dust yourself off and try to open a new business. A business dying can be fixed, a person dying, generally, can not.

The numbers for Michigan look like this as far as deaths from all reported causes:
2019 January 8,490
2019 February 7,712
2019 March 8,582
2019 April 7,987
2019 May 8,164
2019 June 7,710
2019 July 7,994
2019 August 7,810
2019 September 7,734
2019 October 8,292
2019 November 8,394
2019 December 8,740
2020 January 8,924
2020 February 8,200
2020 March 9,472 (429 reported Covid)
2020 April 12,269 (2998 reported Covid)

The trendline there is pretty clear and our death toll of ____ doesn't appear to be ginned up or inflated based on this data. Again, you can easily look this all up yourself with the Department of Health and various educational intuitions. And I've made it pretty clear if your position leads you to just deny that information or the reliability of official sources, that sounds just like Holocaust Denial. Just because it is horrible and the scale of the numbers is hard to imagine and you don't want to believe it doesn't mean you can't be held accountable for calling it a lie and demeaning the families and the deceased. We've seen this act before and it's not cutting it.

Just a brief explanation of that argument since I'm not in a position to share, like, a transcript of the call that sparked this. The preface is that Covid Denial is of a scale equivalent or worse than Holocaust Denial, not drawing a compression between the events themselves, obviously, but of the people that deny, downplay or dismiss the seriousness of them. The punch line of the mathematical proof of this is that the majority of people who deny the Holocaust were not alive and in a position to take acts either to worsen or prevent it when it occur ed, but Every. Single. Covid. Denier. Can. Act. Or. Not. Act. To. Make. It. Worse. Or. Help. Prevent. It. And the large share of Americans who are still alive who were also alive and in a position to take acts to prevent the Holocaust, obviously, were our veterans who Did. Stop. It.

The rest of the math looks like this:

-WWII total casualties 70 to 85 million with war crimes deaths included.
-Covid-19 estimated projection of over 2 million U.S. dead with no efforts taken to mitigate the spread, based on modeling. Roughly, that is arrived at by taking 320 million by 60% infected (192m) by 2% mortality for 3.84 million. 320 Million represents one of every 24.375 persons globally, or approximately 93.6 million dead. Death tolls have been observably worse, up to 7% in Italy when hospitals were overcapacity and 10% in Michigan. It's reasonable to suggest a lot of the less developed parts of the world are going to suffer much worse, with fewer large hospitals, staff and resources to save persons who stand a chance of being survivors with medical intervention available in wealthy countries, but I'm trying not to dwell on how that is going to look when it starts mounting.
-With efforts in some areas to mitigate the spread and ramp up available resources, the average actual death toll in the U.S. is around 1200 daily deaths and globally it is around 3125 . Six million deaths across the 7 years of WWII works out to 2348 average daily deaths.
-On qualitative factors, since the compression of what is being denied here works for more than quantity and there is good data now to support this: Covid-19 disproportionately affects the poor, the disabled, minorities and the elderly. Large numbers have been pressed into unsafe work conditions before some share of them dying. In the worst hit areas, what to do with the remains is a separate scale of horror.

If you are of a position that you want to deny or ignore the images of convoys of military trucks hauling bodies out of cities in northern Italy or the hockey arena in Madrid, Spain being frozen back over and used as an open-air morgue, it really proves the point that Never Forget means absolutely nothing to you and you've made common cause with some quite horrible individuals (good people on both sides, indeed).


On all that nonsense about Bill Gates, which even if you were right I'm not sure what it would have to do with not taking the death toll seriously or taking precautions to save lives, it rather strikes me as laughable for a pretty simple reason. The man walked away from his business over a decade ago and has given away enough money charitably to life saving causes to buy and sell your president ten times over. A president, I will add, whom had his own charitable foundation taken away by court order, agreed to pay fines and damages, and he and his adult children are now prohibited from even serving on the board of a charitable foundation for at least ten years. This all came about because they used funds from it corruptly for their own benefit and deceived contribute rs about where their money would go and causes they were claiming to support not receiving funds they pledged. This isn't me saying that, they agreed with the court to pay back money and close the charity down. They would not have done that if they did nothing wrong, or it was some political witch hunt, they would do that to avoid jail time for breaking the law.

Further, the good works Bill Gates *has* invested in, lead and backed research/ technology to bolster the fight has prevented more deaths from malaria, hiv/aids, polio, tuberculosis and general mortality among st infants and young children, than 45* has failed to save so far during this pandemic. Possibly by orders of magnitude, when all is told. So the notion he is killing people to what, make money on a vaccine?, when he literally has more money than he can spend or donate usefully with the years he has left in his life is some weird back-door attempt at letting your fuhrer off the hook for his shortcomings by scapegoating a smart, rich, kind philanthropist. That you wont listen to and realize how bothersome any or all of what you are participating in when you repeat your hate or the hate of others like that could contribute to less people taking proper health advice and a further escalation of bad outcomes is a problem separate from the denial.


Finally, I'm not sure it was intended as an insult and if I feel insulted when you weren't intending it, then okay, but the premise you can repeat the notions you have then claim you listen to persons "way smarter and well educated" than you are who you listen to and trust... baffling. Irking me by acting like telling you to social distance, wear a mask, wash your hands frequently, listen to public health officials and to not buy into or spread conspiracy theories, in an effort both to protect yourself and not contribute to others coming to harm, is something you can not trust me on when it turns out most of that you have still been doing anyways feels awfully insulting. Especially knowing where most of your political if not health information comes from. I swear, if you take hydroxychloriquine... at least I still believe you are smart enough not to attempt cleaning your lungs with disinfectant or even calling a poison control line to inquire about doing such. Counting the small blessings here.

So many health departments, the CDC, W.H.O., the F.D.A., University medical research groups, essentially and literally all the way smarter and more educated persons on this planet than you in the field of infectious disease, treatments and vaccines, are disagreeing with and critical of your news source(s) and leader on this. If who you mean by way smarter, well educated, listened to and trusted by you are the likes of Sean Hannity, Laura Ingrham, Jeanine Perriro, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, even Alex Jones, posters on facebook copying large quantities of russian-bot generated intelligence operations, neonazi propaganda ministers like Stephen Miller or Steven Bannon, A.M. conservative talk radio, or other truck drivers on the CB radio... outright laughable proposition.

It's particularly confusing and offensive to me considering years ago when I had a problem/disagreement with several of my friends, you referred to them as educated a**holes after you found out they had gone to college... when you previously have bragged of family whom are self-educated in their area to a degree a room full of college graduates well might not be able to keep up with... Well, let me just say taking that attitude with me on this considering the amount of free time I've had to educate myself, listen to and study from well educated persons and dive into things... you are entirely way out of your strategic depth. I'm deliberately making the mistake of engaging here when the wisest way to win the largest share of my well-being would be to deny the opportunity of a battle in the first place, leaving you to your own devices and accepting losing you to a virus or losing you to unacceptable morales and bad politics or to your desire not to be confronted like an adult living in a democracy on your beliefs are all still losing you. I am risking such a blunder with my stress-levels because I believe you deserve a response and up to the limit of this response I am willing to expend energy trying to at least let you know where I stand and what you might do. Despite being fairly sure and forewarned doing so is unlikely to make a difference, or get through.

It does bring me no small amount of solace that you have a deity that forgives just for having faith and the asking. But that doesn't mean I have to grant forgiveness as a participation award, to borrow a phrase. To be forgiven truly should require not just asking, but acknowledging the wrong, accepting accountability and at least some beginning attempt at actions in pursuit of atonement. When a specific group or person is injured as a result of the wrong and not just your own self, their forgiveness should also be sought and whether they are ready to grant it or not, another attempt this time to recompense the harm is also a worthwhile pursuit.

Since what it has taken to express all of this is admittedly a little ridiculously long, and some levity feels called for, I'll conclude with a bit of deliberate ridiculousness for its own sake. I am astounded how there is a clear pattern or signs being widely ignored today by those who pup port to beware for them, that of a portion of the masses being deceived by the charisma of a known liar and fraud artist, while they sport a made in china mark upon their foreheads, and now we have what some might term a literal biblical plague. If I wind up having to put in a requisition for my flaming sword this early, I'll be quite miffed to miss out on my planned summer activities.

I've said what I needed to say and if it happens to inspire any of you to do the same with a person you care about that has attitudes towards groups or political beliefs that are becoming a problem for you, then maybe this wasn't a bad choice among st other bad choices after all. I've brainstormed some hash tags but they would seem trite here. I can let you know 'em if you do that kind of social media and think they might be helpful.

I'll leave with this thought I've been having that has been quite helpful, Matthew 14:20 during the current times can provide solace if you look at it this way - no amount of geographic distance should diminish whether being gathered with another in voice or where you can see one another affects the power of its message. Although the analogy of meeting in caves isn't entirely apt, certainly you don't need to be in a structure of wood, glass or stone within meters of others to make it count.

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Response to Shiv (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 2, 2020, 02:22 AM

12. A chapter closed

While it lost me having my father in my life for the foreseeable future, if not longer, I have gained peace and well-being and never having to hear him utter the N-word, bash Obama, idolate 45*, or say the most despicable things about Muslims. Particularly, Muslim women. It's small, but I have a degree of hope his disagreements with other family members may lead him out of it, but my emotional energy needed to go elsewhere. I fear the poison of it will take him, but stubbornness is a funny thing.

I've posted this elsewhere, and have a finalized initial form now. While as I say I've been pondering the magic trick of one dollar being in two dollars, I'm sorta wondering if I didn't work through converting that negativity I was getting away from into this to heal thyself in an effort to create an idea for healing others. Maybe that's overly ambitious.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=13519479

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:42 PM

3. I have nothing for you but this. n/t



-Laelth

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:53 PM

5. ...

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:55 PM

6. Nice to meet you. Family stuff can be freakin' wierd

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 09:56 PM

7. I do hear you. Hope it turns out ok soon. Take care.

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 10:02 PM

8. I have a friend whose son was being treated cancer, long story short, we talked about God vs

science...after many different attempts with using science based medicine his son died. After a period of time we had a talk about science and God again...he said to me, science didn't save him ... I simply said, God didn't either. He looked broken ... I'll never forget the look on his face. Heartbreaking. God hasn't been mentioned since.

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 10:03 PM

9. Thank you for the good thoughts everyone

Honestly, aside from hoping he and a few other family members I'm hoping seeing this will get a clue, survive this pandemic so I can mend fences later, I titled this my NSEO, with the post here dubbed LitttleBoy, and the post at my dad labeled FatMan. NSEO stands for nuclear scorched earth option. Cause if he can't become an anti-racist non-death toll denier, I can't waste more of my emotional well-being and energy trying to save him. I know I have a weakness of trying to save or rescue, and I can only let that be taken advantage of so far, ya know?

I' don't think I would've felt I had a good enough lightning rod to dust off from the bad replies I'll get elsewhere if it weren't for the community here. I mean, I have some pretty good supports but they are going through their own problems and a major one this is sensitive to because he recently lost his father and had no reconciliation or closure, so it is too close to home.

Hugs and hope you find someone to stop tolerating BS from just because you were afraid of the consequences for your relationship for speaking up to them.

Rock on!

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 10:08 PM

10. Venting here can be good for you!

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2020, 10:13 PM

11. Sending you 💕💕💕💖

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Response to Shiv (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2020, 05:36 AM

13. Welcome to DU and feel free to vent away.

Around 30 years ago, a recovery program taught me I needed to get my inventory and secrets out into the sunshine, although with due caution and discretion. That proved to be extremely healing then, as I was in my mid-forties at the time and the method continues to work to this day.

We have the discretion to air our laundry as needed to individual trusted friends, trusted groups of like-minded people, or in some cases even publishing our stuff on-line or in a book or article. What seems to be key is the willingness.

I also find it very helpful to simply go through the exercise of writing things that bother me down on paper, even if I tear it up afterward. That's still taking things from the inside to the outside.

Best of luck.

KY.........

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