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Sun May 10, 2020, 12:34 PM

Simple question for our lawyers here, when tRUMP loses in Nov.

Can he blanket pardon Burr, or pence, mcturtle, or ANY other assholes that need to go to jail? I will be extremely UPSET if this happens!!

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Reply Simple question for our lawyers here, when tRUMP loses in Nov. (Original post)
bluestarone May 2020 OP
PoliticAverse May 2020 #1
bluestarone May 2020 #5
DavidDvorkin May 2020 #2
Brainfodder May 2020 #3
former9thward May 2020 #35
elleng May 2020 #4
bluestarone May 2020 #6
elleng May 2020 #13
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #7
bluestarone May 2020 #8
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #11
unblock May 2020 #15
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #17
Demsrule86 May 2020 #9
snowybirdie May 2020 #10
exboyfil May 2020 #30
not_the_one May 2020 #12
bluestarone May 2020 #14
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #20
bluestarone May 2020 #23
Tanuki May 2020 #16
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #18
PoliticAverse May 2020 #27
niyad May 2020 #19
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2020 #21
niyad May 2020 #28
bluestarone May 2020 #22
Cicada May 2020 #24
dawg May 2020 #25
bluestarone May 2020 #29
Jake Stern May 2020 #37
dawg May 2020 #39
Doodley May 2020 #26
PuppyBismark May 2020 #31
Gothmog May 2020 #33
bluestarone May 2020 #34
Jake Stern May 2020 #40
Kablooie May 2020 #32
Jake Stern May 2020 #38
gibraltar72 May 2020 #36

Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:38 PM

1. Yes. Why would he, who do you think is going to prosecute them (and for what specific offense)? n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #1)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:41 PM

5. Well not being a lawyer myself, i would think there is

A hell of a lot of things they could be charged with?

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:38 PM

2. I'm not a lawyer, but I assume he could.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:40 PM

3. Doesn't protect them from state charges, and pardons are admission of guilt and need convicted?

..or has that changed, too?

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #3)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:45 PM

35. No.

And nothing has ever changed. A person can be pardoned without a conviction. Ford pardoned Nixon without any charges. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, who was a fugitive and hiding in Switzerland, and had never faced trial. So yes, that can be done and the person being pardoned does not have to admit anything.

Posters have posted about "state charges" for years now but there is no evidence anyone is seriously being investigated for state criminal charges.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:40 PM

4. Yes

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Response to elleng (Reply #4)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:42 PM

6. TKS!

I was afraid of that! NOT on state charges tho right?

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #6)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:53 PM

13. RIGHT!

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:45 PM

7. Yes, but only for federal crimes.

There are a lot of crimes arising under state laws that are similar to federal crimes, and presidents can't pardon those. Also, when you accept a pardon you are admitting to the crime and your Fifth Amendment rights regarding that crime are lost.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #7)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:48 PM

8. So if they accept a pardon can THAT be used against them

With the state charges? (if possible)

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #8)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:50 PM

11. Depends on what they are.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #7)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:57 PM

15. Not clear you're admitting the crime, but yes, you could be compelled to testify

The "admitting the crime by accepting the pardon" part appeared in burdick v u.s., but is likely dicta as it wasn't necessary for the decision and it didn't consider obvious exceptions such as a pardon of someone later found to be innocent (dna evidence, e.g.) or an unjust law, etc., judicial misconduct, etc.

However, yes, if you accept the pardon, you're no longer subject to prosecution for the specific crimes pardoned, so you might be able to be compelled to testify. However, only if there are no other laws under which you might still be liable.

For instance, with a federal pardon, you still could be at risk under state law, so you might still be able to avoid testifying against yourself.

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Response to unblock (Reply #15)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:01 PM

17. Yes. It depends entirely on what state law you are being charged with.

State tax evasion, for example, could be a whole different can of worms from federal tax evasion.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:48 PM

9. Yes he can. But we will have to save the economy and lives before we can even consider

this anyway...Let the new installed justice department handle this...our elected need to pass progressive policies that will send help to a desperate people.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:48 PM

10. Of course he can

Remember all the heat Clinton took when he issued several controversial pardons the morning of Bush 43 inauguration?

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Response to snowybirdie (Reply #10)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:17 PM

30. Bush pardoning six Iran Contra

figures including SecDef Weinberger.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:51 PM

12. Don't you have to be charged and judged to verdict to be eligible for a pardon?

Doesn't there have to be a guilty verdict to BE pardoned?

Don't try to touch another one of the guilty pieces of shit until January 21st, then turn them over to NEW Attorney General Kamala Harris, with the guidance of "THROW THE BOOK AT THEM".

Just saying "this person can never be accused or prosecuted for any possible crime" doesn't seem legal. Of course, legality has never stopped them yet...

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Response to not_the_one (Reply #12)

Sun May 10, 2020, 12:54 PM

14. I do not believe so

The asshole CAN pre-pardon all federal charges, i'm sure! BUT like mentioned above if they accept pardon they plead guilty!

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #14)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:04 PM

20. You don't literally plead guilty, as one would in court.

Accepting a pardon is effectively admitting the crime because you can be required to testify about what you did since you no longer have 5th Amendment protection, but it's not technically a guilty plea.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #20)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:07 PM

23. Gotcha TY

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Response to not_the_one (Reply #12)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:00 PM

16. Ford issued a blanket, unconditional pardon of Nixon.

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Response to not_the_one (Reply #12)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:02 PM

18. No. Ford pardoned Nixon for all crimes he might have committed as President.

Nixon was never charged, let alone convicted.

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Response to not_the_one (Reply #12)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:11 PM

27. No. For example President Carter pardoned all Vietnam draft evaders...

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:03 PM

19. Apart from the pardons, I worry about what it is going to take to pry him out of OUR HOUSE

after he loses.

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Response to niyad (Reply #19)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:06 PM

21. All it will take is a few federal marshals.

On January 20 at noon he will be a private citizen, and if he doesn't leave then he will be trespassing on government property and can be removed, just like any other private citizen.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #21)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:11 PM

28. I can see his supporters, with their phallic substitutes, trying to stop the marshals.

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Response to niyad (Reply #19)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:06 PM

22. When he TRULY loses i see no problem then

He WILL be removed! BUT will the civil rule of law be broken? THIS i don't know! W ill be interesting for sure!

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:07 PM

24. Yes

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:09 PM

25. We need a Presidential Powers Amendment to fix this.

I know Presidential pardons have been used in a benevolent way in the past, but any possible good is overwhelmingly outweighed by the potential for abuse and the very real ability of a President and his goons to act above the law.

The Presidential Pardon needs to be confined to the dustbin of history, just like we did with unlimited Presidential Terms and election of Senators by state legislatures.

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Response to dawg (Reply #25)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:13 PM

29. I personally see no fucking good reason for this BLANKET PARDON BULLSHIT myself, BUT

Maybe someone here could explain when the pardon actually started, AND maybe why it could be something we need?

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Response to dawg (Reply #25)

Sun May 10, 2020, 02:07 PM

37. All pardons should have to go through a committee of randomly assigned judges.

along with the President and AG.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #37)

Sun May 10, 2020, 02:14 PM

39. I don't think the President should be involved with this sort of thing at all.

If new evidence arises in a case that might be exculpatory, there should be a mechanism for evaluating whether to void the conviction, but otherwise, let lawful convictions stand.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:11 PM

26. IF Trump loses. Get ready for the biggest smear campaign against Joe Biden in the history of US.

Remember, Hillary Clinton's approval was 65% before Republicans and Trump set out to redefine her.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:33 PM

31. He will pardon everyone and resign two days before the end of term, Pence will then pardon him.

No question, he will pardon everyone. Then resign one or two days before the end of his term in January. Pence will become president for a day and will then pardon tRump. So we will not have an opportunity to get tRump at the federal level, but I hope New York and other states will go after him.

I would hope New York will have the indictment ready and will grab him as he leaves the White House, otherwise I suspect he will flee the country.

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Response to PuppyBismark (Reply #31)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:40 PM

33. I agree which means for this plan to work, turmp cannot repleace Pence on the ticket

trump will need Pence if he wants to get an enforceable pardon

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Response to PuppyBismark (Reply #31)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:41 PM

34. Actually i wonder IF HE

Can pardon HIMSELF too? (That possible?)

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Response to PuppyBismark (Reply #31)

Sun May 10, 2020, 02:17 PM

40. I don't think so

1. His ego wouldn't let him resign. That's showing weakness in his eyes.

2. He's packed the court, especially SCOTUS with sychophants so he can get any action stalled pretty much indefinitely.

3. Let's be brutally honest for a second. The Dems don't exactly have a proven track record of prosecuting people from past administrations for malfeasance, instead preferring to "look forward" as Obama put it. Otherwise Shrub, Darth Cheney and a gaggle of others would probably be in prison. So if history holds, he doesn't really have much to worry about there.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 01:37 PM

32. He could but how would that benefit Trump as he leaves office?

That's the only criteria Trump uses.

He doesn't care about future policies, the direction of the country, repaying debts or rewarding slavish devotion to his person.
Even securing their support for the future isn't a consideration.

The only consideration is if pardoning someone would immediately benefit him in some obvious way.
In most cases it wouldn't so I don't expect a lot of pardons once he embarks on his last 2 1/2 month vendetta to destroy the United States for voting him out of office.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #32)

Sun May 10, 2020, 02:09 PM

38. Vengeance and spite

Essentially putting the people we want in prison most out of reach.

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Response to bluestarone (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2020, 02:06 PM

36. Glenn Kirshner has a plan for that.

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