HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » This is what a no lockdow...

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:44 PM

This is what a no lockdown looks like: 5 days ago, Sweden had US equivalent of 2500 deaths, now 6500

I am (I was first told via Hong Kong banking family friends in late December about a 'new Sars' cluster in Wuhan) freaking out for the very first time.

https://c19.se/



There are only 7 large governmental entities in the Western World with no even partial lockdowns

Nevada, Arkansas, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Sweden.

We are not even testing in Sweden even if a person is symptomatic, unless they are in a high risk group. Almost all schools under high school level are still open. Almost all bars and restos are open if they have table service, which is still allowed. The state health officials are still in denial and sniping at the rest of the world. Crowds under 50 (it was 500 until several days ago!) are still allowed. The government is dragging its feet reporting deaths on the government site (Folkhälsomyndigheten) that most global trackers are using. The site I use https://c19.se/ was giving to me by a nurse friend at Karolinska Huddinge (the largest hospital in the Nordics.). It updates more quickly. We are in DEEP shit I am truly starting to fear.


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html




The Nordic divide on coronavirus: Which country has the right strategy?

https://www.thelocal.se/20200331/the-nordic-divide-is-denmark-norway-sweden-right-or-wrong-on-coronavirus

"21 dead in Stockholm", read Monday's headline in Norway's VG. "The number of corona deaths in Sweden rises to 146," runs the headline in Norway's NRK newswire. "146 people infected with coronavirus in Sweden are dead," ran Tuesday's story from Denmark's Ritzau newswire. When the British medical journal The Lancet on Tuesday described Sweden's "slow response" as looking "increasingly poorly judged", it was the main story on VG's homepage.




Two weeks after the Norway and Denmark shut schools and kindergartens and asked all but essential workers to stay home, the media in the two countries is watching Sweden's hospital admissions and coronavirus death tally almost as closely as their own, ready for signs of a spike to justify their own lockdowns.

snip

Allan Randrup Thomsen, a professor of virology at the University of Copenhagen, in an interview with Denmark's Ekstra Bladet newspaper on "Why Sweden is not locking down", argued the difference between the countries policies was "purely ideological" "I believe that they've based their strategy on the notion that they're just going to ride through the epidemic," he said. Unlike Frederiksen, he said it was still too early to tell if Denmark's lockdown is working, but he said he believed Sweden would pay a price.

"Sweden is getting a greater spread of coronavirus. They do not have this dampening, which we have worked hard for at home, and so I fear that they will not be able to handle the peak of the epidemic, which everything points to us succeeding in," he said.

"I fear they're going to experience a greater number of hospital admissions and deaths."


snip

23 replies, 1601 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply This is what a no lockdown looks like: 5 days ago, Sweden had US equivalent of 2500 deaths, now 6500 (Original post)
Celerity Mar 31 OP
Totally Tunsie Mar 31 #1
Celerity Mar 31 #5
smirkymonkey Mar 31 #10
Celerity Mar 31 #11
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 31 #2
Ferrets are Cool Mar 31 #3
defacto7 Mar 31 #4
Brainfodder Mar 31 #6
Celerity Mar 31 #7
Brainfodder Mar 31 #8
Celerity Mar 31 #9
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 31 #12
Celerity Mar 31 #13
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 31 #16
Blue_true Mar 31 #14
Celerity Mar 31 #15
Blue_true Mar 31 #17
Celerity Mar 31 #18
underpants Apr 1 #19
muriel_volestrangler Apr 1 #20
Celerity Apr 1 #21
muriel_volestrangler Apr 1 #22
Celerity Apr 1 #23

Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:47 PM

1. You're scaring me, Celerity.

I'm getting more and more concerned about my family moving there this summer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Totally Tunsie (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:05 PM

5. Well, you have a couple months to see what the situation is, and take a deep reconnoitre, but this

situation is exposing deep systemic, highly, highly complex and difficult (in a few paragraphs) to explain flaws in the collective zeitgeist here. I have attempted to do so in many previous posts.

It is a combination of post WWII hubris (we were the only Nordic nation not invaded by the Nazis and/or at war with Russia (Finland, which is why they were Axis for the first several years) engendered by our quick clime up the socioeconomic ladder in the post war European theatre, a sense of moral superiority when it comes to doing things the 'Swedish Way' and then trying to push that out onto an international level (the Swedish Model of the 1950's, 60's, 70's international outreach efforts and attempts to export it to the 3rd world, which failed overall), the concept of Jantelagen, and then the recent (last 15 to 20 years) ideological wars over the insane levels of refugee immigration (50 million when US population adjected) that has driven a vast rift between us and our neighbours and also enabled the rise of the far RW white nationalist Sweden Democrats, who are now polling as close to the biggest party, and are the 3rd biggest (and frozen out by all the others) in the Riksdag. Combine that with a huge trust overall in the government (the government IS superb in many things not immigration/refugee and now COVID-19, related) and you have a clusterfuck waiting to blow.

It is far more complicated than all that, but that is a crude outline.


Jantelagen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

The Law of Jante (Danish: Janteloven) is a code of conduct known in Nordic countries that characterizes not conforming, doing things out of the ordinary, or being overtly personally ambitious as unworthy and inappropriate. The attitudes were first formulated in the form of the ten rules of Jante Law by the Dano-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose in his satirical novel A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks (En flyktning krysser sitt spor, 1933), but the actual attitudes themselves are older. Sandemose portrays the fictional small Danish town Jante, which he modelled upon his native town Nykøbing Mors in the 1930s, where nobody was anonymous, which is typical of all small towns and communities.

Used generally in colloquial speech in the Nordic countries as a sociological term to denote a social attitude of disapproval towards expressions of individuality and personal success, it emphasizes adherence to the collective.

There are ten rules in the law as defined by Sandemose, all expressive of variations on a single theme and usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: You are not to think you're anyone special or that you're better than us.


Janteloven written by Aksel Sandemose

The ten rules state:

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to imagine yourself better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.


The Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.

An eleventh rule recognised in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:

Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 03:11 PM

10. They must really hate a braggart like Trump then.

Especially when all his boasts are so unjustified.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #10)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 03:38 PM

11. he always has been an object of ridicule and disgust here by the vast majority of people

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:56 PM

2. Stay safe!

The states in the US that haven't called for a lockdown yet are pretty thinly populated, so they are assuming they can get away with it. I believe that is likely to change soon, though, since when the rural areas are affected the people won't have the same access to hospitals as in the large cities. Sweden may prove to be an object lesson, but at a terrible cost.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:57 PM

3. When I heard about their lack of preparation, I was afraid this would be the result. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:02 PM

4. Oh god...

Please stay well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:10 PM

6. I am in Nevada and only "essential services" are open where I am, rest is delivery ONLY

Our governor was ahead of the curve on this, our death rate is sub 20 for 2.5M population and all those travelers? AMAZED!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Brainfodder (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:18 PM

7. maybe the NYT needs to update their map. I wondered why NV was on the list, as it was the only non

Red State.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:24 PM

8. I had to calm thyself with another toke when I saw that!



This shitshow has been in ad-lib mode since day one?



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Brainfodder (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:45 PM

9. It has been here, yes. I (and at least 1 million others I reckon) want to hang Anders Tegnell from

a lampost. He is the chief state epidemiologist and a true open borders, 'EVERYONE else (be it an individual or an entire nation like Denmark, Norway, etc) is a racist for simply not capitulating to his vision' phoney, dodgy pseudo LW ideologue who has zero real world future-forward vision. I detest him and his ilk (and they are legion here in terms of infesting our superstructures at various levels) almost as much as Trumpian Rethugs (not quite, but I am trodding on the road.)

My wife and I and all our friends and family who are here (many are scattered globally) are living in a reverso-world Trumpian (but from a fake 'left' stance, not the RW orgy of racism, religion, anti-science, hate, and greed that is the way of the Rump) dystopian nightmare in terms of this pandemic and the responses to it's underlying causational factors.

Strap in all, its going to be ROUGH ride.

To steal a Texas phrase that a classmate from there taught me at uni in London, our leaders at the top, overall, have so far been as useful as tits on a bull.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 03:49 PM

12. I was just looking at the latest numbers:

Sweden has 4,435 cases and 180 deaths. There were 407 new cases and 34 new deaths on 31 March.
Denmark has 2,860 cases and 90 deaths. There were 283 new cases and 13 new deaths on 31 March.
Norway has 4,630 cases and 39 deaths. There were 185 new cases and 7 new deaths on 31 March.

Norway has more cases than both other countries but far fewer deaths than Sweden - only 1/4 as many (granted, Sweden's population is almost twice Norway's, which might be a partial explanation). Despite its border with Germany Denmark has fewer total cases than the other two countries so I would expect more cases there. Is Norway doing more testing than Denmark? Does its lower death rate than the other countries mean its hospitals were better prepared? It will take a while to sort all of this out but it sure looks like Sweden is having problems that the rest of Scandinavia doesn't have. And Iceland is testing almost everybody (a little easier to do with a population of only about 300,000).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #12)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 04:27 PM

13. 180 is not accurate, its 199 (2 more added since I last checked, due to delays, as I explained above

this site is much closer to real-time updated

https://c19.se/



Denmark shut down before Norway, and I think Norway is testing more. I would not be shocked if Sweden's real case number is over double or more that what is shown, as we are not testing many who are not in a risk group, even if they are symptomatic (that simply MUST change, as well as we need to shut the country down)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #13)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 05:15 PM

16. It's hard to keep up.

I got my numbers here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries They are probably a little behind because they have to get their data from local sources.

Interestingly, the state I live in (Minnesota) has about the same population as Norway (and almost as many people of Norwegian descent, including me); we are very locked down right now, and the health department is reporting 576 cases (up 73 from yesterday) and 10 deaths (1 new death) as of today. However, because of the shortage of tests due to the immense incompetence of our feckless federal government, only the people who are hospitalized, in care homes or are health workers can get tested. This means that there are certainly many more actual cases than we know about. We have an excellent health department and a very smart governor but Trump is screwing things up for everybody. The governors are begging for tests and ventilators but can't get them. It's maddening.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 04:47 PM

14. What is the Prime Minister in Sweden like? Is he rightish?

The decisions that he has made sound somewhat rightwing to me. Hopefully this situation ends his political career and any other influence of society going forward.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_true (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 05:09 PM

15. no, not at all, he is a Social Democrat, and trade unionist by way of background

and 'rightish' and or centre right for Sweden and much of the EU in many cases (not all of course)would be to the left of many House Dems and Dem US Senators.

Henry Cuellar and Manchin types would be towards the rightish sides of the Moderates (the centre right old Conservative party) and Cuellar's beliefs might get him pushed out altogether (he would end up in the Christian Democrats I think, who are overall to the right of at least half of the Moderates)

Even the far RW nationalist Sweden Democrats are almost all big defenders of the folkhemmet (our expansive welfare state) they just want it for ethnic Swedes mostly (they are pretty much a one issue party)

very few completely oppose it, other than the most to the rightward side of the Moderates (the old Conservative party) and some of the more extreme Liberals (they are centre right as party) and Christian Democrats fairly right (both tiny parties) and a handful of Centerpartiet as well (centre right party again)

Most of the centre right do not want to abolish it, they want a neoliberal 3rd wat public/private model (and have done that a bit back when the Moderates form a centre right coalition, The Alliance)

The US is so artificially moved to the right it is very hard to draw direct lines with US labels of left and right, and liberal in the rest of the world usually means centre right (classical liberalism)



our PM:

Stefan Löfven

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_L%C3%B6fven

https://www.svtstatic.se/image/wide/992/26116976/1584942436?quality=70&format=auto

Kjell Stefan Löfven (Swedish pronunciation: [ˈstěːfan lœˈveːn]; officially Löfvén; born 21 July 1957) is a Swedish politician serving as Prime Minister of Sweden since 2014 and Leader of the Social Democratic Party since 2012.

After leaving school and completing his mandatory military service in the Swedish Air Force, Löfven qualified as a welder[citation needed] and subsequently began a career as an active trade unionist. He rose to be elected as an ombudsman within the Swedish Metalworkers' Union (SMU) and was eventually elected as the first Chairman of IF Metall in January 2006, a major new trade union formed from a number of smaller unions, including the SMU, voting to merge.

After the resignation of Håkan Juholt, in January 2012, Löfven was unanimously selected by the executive board of the Social Democratic Party to replace him as the party's new leader. This also made Löfven the Leader of the Opposition, despite the fact that he did not have a seat in the Riksdag at the time.

Löfven led the Social Democrats into the 2014 election. Despite initial opinion poll leads, the party only gained a single seat, but due to the poor performance of the governing Moderate Party, who lost 23 seats, Löfven was able to form a minority coalition government with the Green Party. He was appointed Prime Minister of Sweden on 3 October. He secured a second term in the aftermath of the inconclusive 2018 election, which saw both main parties suffer losses; after a months-long impasse that set a new record for government formation, Löfven was able to secure abstentions from MPs belonging to the Centre Party, the Left Party and the Liberals, and was re-elected by the Riksdag in January 2019.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 05:25 PM

17. Why did he buy into such a boneheaded response to the virus? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_true (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 05:50 PM

18. I went into a lot of it in this thread, but the main thing to also bear in mind is that the

Last edited Tue Mar 31, 2020, 09:25 PM - Edit history (1)

government is paralysed with fear of action and thuse punted to pack of duncey berks, these so-called health experts, who are ideological driven and have very little real life future-forward thinking skills.

They are trapped in a bubble of denial, and made HUGE mistakes in the beginning, insane statements (Anders Tegnell saying the virus is not very transmittable, and that people were being racists and alarmists by sending their workers home to remote work and also for calling schools to be closed), and now wont budge off many of them for fear of looking like the fuckeing bampots they are.

So much of this flows back to the refugee immigration battles. Only in Sweden can they invent tortured enough logic to connect the two.

The Sweden Democrats are surging in the polls due to this. Thank fuck an election is not for several more years (unless there is a vote of no confidence that passes.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 09:31 AM

19. This is big shakes in right wing world

Of course they don’t bother offering the consequences

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 12:42 PM

20. Swedish deaths not increasing as fast as UK ones, though

Yesterday, UK deaths stood at 1789; 5 days before that, at 578. So Swedish deaths multiplied by 2.6, British by 3.1. UK figures, in 'US equivalent' terms, went from about 2830 to 8760.

Today, British deaths increased to 2,352, Swedish to 257 from your source (though I don't know if that's a final figure for the day); 60 for Sweden in about 24 hours since this thread was started, 563 for the UK. Scaled up to the UK level, Sweden increased by 390. So there still isn't obvious "Sweden's acts have been awful" data.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 02:03 PM

21. both are really bad, we both have terrible upward curves, but compared to our neighbours, Sweden,

who did not go into lockdown whilst the other did, is far beyond the rest of the Nordics. Sweden's response has been atrocious compared to all the other Nordics and many other, if not most, of the EU. The UK at least is now in lockdown, we just had our daily governmental update live presser, and they are still refusing to do it, even as the rates shoot up and up.

The UK has had the US equivalent of around 2,800 deaths in the past 24 hours (if that is complete data), so yes, Britain is in trouble, big, big trouble as well. All 3 of my nations (US, UK, Sweden) are looking grim atm.

Spain looks like it is tracking to overtake Italy as well.

Both the UK and Sweden are large outliers here in terms of deaths, and Sweden is not testing most all unless you are sympotmatic and in a high risk group, so our case numbers are VERY suspect





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 02:37 PM

22. Some other EU countries are comparable to the UK - the Netherlands and Belgium started

about the same time as UK and Sweden; Netherlands (pop 17.2 million) is at 1,173, and Belgium (pop 11.4 million) 828 deaths. France has had over 4,000 deaths, though their outbreak started about a week before the UK, in terms of deaths.

On the whole, Nordic countries other than Sweden have done very well; I wonder if colder weather meant there was less social mixing in the early stages, before people began distancing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #22)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 02:48 PM

23. A meme from a week ago

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread