This message was self-deleted by its author

[Celerity]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Celerity) on Wed Oct 6, 2021, 11:45 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Turin_C3PO]

1. Jesus Christ, I didn't realize Sweden was that fucked up.

Sounds like they’re handling it worse than Trump is, if that’s even possible.

[jberryhill]

4. Interestingly

They are on a linear trajectory, not an exponential one

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

I like how the OP throws in a rant about immigrants.

[Celerity]

7. It is so complicated to explain, as even amongst the Nordics, Sweden is unique.

We were the only nation not invaded by the Nazi Germans or actually an Axis ally (Finland, for part of the war, due to fear of Russia, and actual war with them). After WWII, we embarked on a global initiative to promote a '3rd way' the Swedish Model and did a lot of great thing internationally, but there developed a hubris as well, a sense of more superiority, but within that, internally, there is also an overarching sense of Jantelagen, ie. The Law of Jante. It ironically come from a Danish/Norwegian author, but in Sweden it is far more prevalent as a philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

Used generally in colloquial speech in the Nordic countries as a sociological term to denote a social attitude of disapproval towards expressions of individuality and personal success, it emphasizes adherence to the collective.

There are ten rules in the law as defined by Sandemose, all expressive of variations on a single theme and usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: You are not to think you're anyone special or that you're better than us.


Janteloven written by Aksel Sandemose

The ten rules state:

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to imagine yourself better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
The Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.

An eleventh rule recognised in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:

Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?

Combine all that (thankfully, as the decades roll by it is less and less prevalent) with a really controlled press and a massive confidence in the government (now starting to erode over the past 10 to 15 years, mostly due to refugee immigration, which has enabled the damn rise of the far right wing Swedish Democrats, as ALL the parties up until 3 or 4 or so years ago just kept doubling down) and it is a clusterfuck during crisis times like now.

Again, it would take so long to fully explain, and unfortunately the best way to see it is to move here and imbibe the culture for a few years. There is a tremendous pressure (weakened now a bit) to close ranks and support the government, even if they are doing really stupid things. I fear our lack of aggressive measures on COVID-19 is possibly going to end up costing us thousands of unnecessary deaths.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Its next-door neighbor, Norway, is doing the exact opposite.

https://www.thelocal.no/20200324/norway-extends-coronavirus-lockdown-until-after-easter And they aren't letting Swedes (or anybody else) into the country.


WTF, do they get Fox News in Sweden?

[Celerity]

8. it's the exact opposite end of the spectrum politically, it's a radical left undercurrent as I laid

Last edited Wed Mar 25, 2020, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

out in my OP. It is like reverso-world Trumpism in a way.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. Interestingly, Erna Solberg is a center-right politician (but center-right there

is what we'd call center-left here) but she seems to have some sensible ideas about managing the situation.

[Celerity]

13. Norway is overall vasty better run than Sweden on more than a few levels.

Having billions upon billions of USD in oil reserves helps, lolol. I still prefer Sweden overall, but times like this makes me question this stance we (my wife and I) have taken to live and study here versus Norway (We would live in Norway before Denmark, and no chance we would live in Finland ever.)

You also have to understand (you very well may) that the pro-refugee immigration forces in Sweden detest the Norwegian and Danish and Finnish government's stances on that. The scream racist!!!! non stop. They have taken it to such ludicrous levels that we (here in Sweden) now have a massive problem of the rise of the far RW white nationalist Sweden Democrats (see some of my other replies in this thread.)

[smirkymonkey]

3. Wow. I would not have expected that in Sweden.

Isn't there any way to get this guy removed? He sounds dangerous. Not only does he sound anti-science, but he is clearly pushing a political agenda that could get a lot of people killed - of all races and ethnicities.

[Celerity]

14. At least a million people here want his arse binned I think by now. But I doubt it happens.

I still have hope though!

[lunatica]

5. That's really unfortunate.

It sounds, though, as if many people will self isolate and many businesses might continue to telecommute.

Just keep remembering that more people live after getting sick. If you’re in the high risk group keep isolating. You can only do what you can do.

[Celerity]

17. we (my wife and I) practice rigid social distancing for weeks now (and we are doing it to simply

stop the spread mostly, as we are both in our early 20's and in superb shape physically, so not at huge risk of death so far) All (now) of our closest friends and family here are doing the same. We cut ties with a few who refused, and they will have to really earn their way back into our lives, as they are still out running around like fools. I think it is massively irresponsible.

[lunatica]

19. When everyone is asked to sacrifice

you get a quick lesson in the fundamental character in people. I imagine there are a lot of people who are seeing family members and friends differently now. Like you I probably wouldn’t keep a friendship with people who don’t understand that they can kill people with their selfishness.

[Celerity]

21. The few who are not practicing good behaviour are peripheral friends, and one co-worker

so no great loss in our lives if we maintain the blockade. We all have told them they are being selfish and reckless, but they think the entire thing is overblown, mostly because of bellends like Tegnell and the tosh they were/are pushing for weeks.

[Hortensis]

6. Damn. So sorry it's not turning around. Of course Sweden

has its own fair share of conservatives by personality, regardless of culture and which party label they're wearing.

But this also brought Putin to mind because it really sounds like Russia's hand heavy in it. They corrupt RWers especially in and out of government and use sophisticated mind-fucking techniques to turn vulnerable citizens into self-destructive idiots. And of course help get disastrous people like this one into power. Putin has been taking a long view in many nations, building to this.

[Celerity]

12. Putin has nothing to do with the government stance, it's from the exact opposite end of the spectrum

and the exact opposite philosophical underpinnings.

Putin supports the ultra RW Sweden Democrats, who have made massive gains recently due to the refugee stance all the Swedish parties took from the begging of the US/UK/NATO empric wars. Sweden got cocky becuase of the tremendous success they had in taking in refugees from all the US led coups since the end of WWII (Iran in 1953 was the first, Operation Ajax by the CIA). Chile (CIA coup of Allende, all sorts of African coups, etc etc.

But the numbers for decades were small overall. Starting with the 2003 Iraq Bush war, the number s exploded, and it was not just a huge inflow of people, but the socio-economic typology too, completely broken cultures, and not a lot of elites like before, elites who were simply on the losing end of the US/UK/NAO coups, etc. Also, the religious typology (Islam in this case) was radically different (many of the Iranians who came in the 50's to the '80's were secular or Christian or moderate Muslims). The breaking point came from the Syrian war, when at one point we had over 100,000 a months flowing in (that would be like 3.3 MILLION a month flowing into the US) Sweden is super secular, non religious overall, hugely feminist, pro LGBTQ, etc etc. The refugees overall HATE this, they hate the climate, they hate most all things Swedish, at least they older ones do, and many of the radicalised youth.

We have done really poorly at integration, as there are a TONNE of people in the government who have jumped on board and taken an anti-Swedish culture stance, including a Prime Minister (Mona Sahlin) who said that Swedes have no real culture, only the immigrants do. Even the Moderate PM (Moderates are the new name for the old Conservative Party, so like the Tories in the UK) Reinfeldt at one time was getting in on the Swedish culture bash, saying in 2014 that Sweden belongs to the immigrants - not the Swedes. All that led to a huge backlash, and a huge rise of the Rw via the white nationalist Sweden Democrats. That is the Party Putin supports. The Sweden Democrats are current polling at being the 2nd biggest party, and they are also taking advantage of the coronavirus situ, as they (rightly so in thsi case) want to close the country down like the rest of the Nordics have. Like I said, it is a huge clusterfuck, and one cannot draw A to B points of comparison to the US. A lot of things are reversed or warped.

[Hortensis]

27. Very interesting posts from your world, and thank you. I learn.

However, if Russia has nothing to do with the degradation of Sweden's politics into severe dysfunction, that would only make me wonder why on earth Putin would be giving Sweden a pass instead of donating at least a few encouraging kicks to this NATO nation.



Best wishes.

[Celerity]

30. We are (thankfully) not in NATO, and Putin does interfere via

support for the far RW Sweden Democrats, who arefrozen out of power in the Riksdag despite being the 3rd largest party and now polling close to the biggest one (Social Democrats.) Sweden has a long tradition of paranoia when it comes to Russia and the old CCCP. Russian subs spying are a long time meme here.

[Hortensis]

33. Oh, duh. I completely forgot that and poor Finland.

Russia interferes from both far left and right, and right across the spectrum in the U.S. As we know all too well.

[Celerity]

34. when I said that Putin pushes the Sweden Democrats, I was not specific enough. They are far RW

but so far, they are also NOT Russia-friendly overall. They are extreme nationalists but that includes a pretty anti-Russian stance within their leadership. To the extent the Russians do 'aid' them is more indirect, just in a general way to promote social discord. There is a breakaway splinter party (very small and NOT in the Riksdag) called Alternativ för Sverige (Alternative for Sweden) who are much more open to cooperation with the Kremlin, but again, they are very tiny and overall ineffectual.

The main goal of Putin for Sweden is for us to stay out of NATO, but he does not have to work that hard at that, as the vast majority of people here have never wanted to join NATO, across the entire spectrum politically. The main pushers for NATO membership are from the centre-right to right Moderates (the old Conservative Party). People like Carl Bildt, who I and millions of others detest, as when he was Prime Minister he was covertly working with the American CIA, plus he si a neoliberal (the RW style, like Thatcher/Reagan, not the centre to centre-left Clintonian/Blairite 3rd way models that had their genesis in the early 1980's) who wants to shrink the Folkhemmet (our Swedish welfare state, it means the people's home). There are a smattering of other MP's from other parties who also are pro NATO, but so far the consensus holds against joining.

here is a good article from a year and a half ago mirroring my thoughts

btw, this article was pre 2018 elections, and here is the 2018 results

even though SD (Sweden Democrats) had by far their biggest result ever, they were disappointed, as many polls a month out showed them actually winning a plurality as the biggest party with around 30%


4% is the threshold needed to gain Riksdag seats

The Greens (overall not a mirror of the US Greens, absolutely not a Russian pushed party, but that is beyond the scope of this reply, and the only reason the US Greens are pushed by Russia is due to the US's non-proportional representation 2-party scheme, wherein the Greens can become spoilers for the Dems, a problem that we do not have here, thank dog), had a horrific result, and almost crashed out of parliament. They changed their platform 6 or 7 years ago from a great one (IMHO one of the best on the planet) to one that I disagree with now, as they went from soft Eurosceptic to complete integration (including entering the Eurozone), and also from commonsense immigration to almost a full open borders stance, and are now rabidly PC about refugees. IF they were the Miljöpartiet de gröna (their name in Swedish) of 2008, I would be a member, but alas, they have radically changed, and for the worse on many crucial thematics.

The big winners were the Centre Party (Centerpartiet, marginally centre-RW and whose leader, Annie Lööf, I detest) the Sweden Democrats (albeit not as large a gain as many thought). Lööf is a terrible opportunist as seems to adopt whatever is amongst the worst possible policies, be it a neoliberal shrinkage of the social safety net or a pro more refugees band-standing stance that weaponises the debate from a dodgy 'pro' posture that demagogues it all. She is extraordinarily cynical (for a Swedish politician) and because the election ended in a hung parliament, she played kingmaker to a large (but not full) extent. She is a brilliant power player, but her ends-justify-the-means cynicism is repellant to many of us. She would fit in well in the US or the UK, roflamooooo.

Vänsterpartiet (The Left Party, the actual REAL socialists and even some communists, far far beyond a Sanders-style Social Democrat programme) also made some gains. The Left Party was never been in an alliance true government with the Social Democrats and the Greens, etc, but they do work within a 'Confidence and Supply' scheme, like the Lib Dems did with the fucking Tories of Cameron in the the UK (which is why I hate the Lib Dems, as they enabled an austerity regime that partly led to Brexit, and then had the jacobs (balls, stones, etc.) to re-cast themselves as ultra Remainers.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2018_Swedish_general_election





here is the article on Russia and Sweden

Opinion: How to counter Russian interference like a Swede

No other European country was more prepared to face off Russian influence operation than Sweden. But for Moscow, the main goal is to keep Sweden out of Nato and for that you don't need just one aggressive power grab, writes think tank director Jakub Janda.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180914/opinion-how-to-counter-russian-interference-like-a-swede

14 September 2018
08:59 CEST+02:00

Sweden has been preparing for its 2018 elections for almost two years. Security institutions of this non-Nato Scandinavian country studied relevant elections abroad, and especially the ones that have been tampered with by Russia. There are at least three reasons why we have seen only limited interference activities. First, the Swedish government was ready. It used its robust civil crisis-response experience and established an election task force composed of dozens of relevant agencies and actors in both the public and the private spheres to safeguard independent elections. Thousands of public officials were trained and the most extensive manual on countering influence operations was published. On the technical side, paper ballot electoral systems limit the fear of delegitimization of the electoral results by a cyber attack. In military terms, we would say that the target has been hardened while expecting the enemy attack.

Second, though Sweden is domestically vulnerable mainly due to real internal grievances over migration-related issues, there are local conditions which make it harder for Russian intelligence to operate. Limited Russian resources capable of communicating fluently in Swedish and a small Russian minority (fewer than 20,000) are only a start. More importantly, Swedish political culture has made it harder for a strong pro-Kremlin political party to be cultivated. Similarly, the post-MH-17 environment made it much harder for the Dutch PVV party of Geert Wilders to openly join the Russian allies on the European far-right map. In the country of Vikings, there is yet no counterpart of the usual Kremlin proxies, such as the French National Front, Austrian Freedom Party, or Italian 5-Star Movement. So far, Russia's political allies are limited to a new micro party (Alternative for Sweden) and individuals pushing the "neutral" agenda within the mainstream parties. The strongest anti-establishment party, Sweden Democrats, has not yet shown itself as a Kremlin proxy, as most European far-right parties are. The question remains as to how successful Russian cultivation efforts will be in the future as they are clearly the main Kremlin target.

Third, timing is important. In the Russian calculation, strategic deployment of resources is ultimately decided upon cost-effect assessment. In the same time period, three arguably more significant political games with larger impact potential are happening – US midterms, elections in deeply vulnerable Bosnia and Herzegovina and the vote in Latvia in early October. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the simple game-plan, which in many cases can be politically natural and organic. Russian proxy messengers across the West (like conspiracy theorist Alex Jones) have targeted Sweden due to its migration-related policies and massive bot activities have spiked in the days prior to the elections. A Swedish exit from the European Union ('Swexit') has been a recurring narrative in right-fringe communication, despite the fact that EU support in Sweden is at an all-time high. This has been repeated and enhanced by alt-right and Russian English-language media. Moreover, a rather well-coordinated delegitimization campaign against the conservative party (Moderaterna) by the youth Nazi movement was conducted. The political logic is clear – by undermining the ruling Social Democrats who are weak on migration and delegitimizing the moderate right, the far-right can only gain and future Russian cultivation efforts may potentially bear fruit.

The Russian strategy seems to be clear. Moscow probably realized that going in with direct aggressive activities would backfire due to Swedish government preparedness and it would undermine the strategic objective – keeping Sweden out of Nato. Therefore, direct interference action wasn't the main tactic – as it was for example in the 2016 US presidential elections or 2016 Brexit campaign with use of massive disinformation and political influence methods. Russia would have probably chosen a more aggressive approach if the Nato-membership question was one of the main campaign topics, but it wasn't. The Russian playbook used in Sweden resembles the 2017 Bundestag elections in Germany. Moscow apparently expects the main targeted outcome will play out naturally. While German Social Democrats already played an important role for the Kremlin's strategy by pushing for Nord Stream 2, as a Russian tool of geopolitical blackmail, Moscow will clearly try to cultivate the far-right in Sweden as the potential future blocker of Swedish accession to Nato. For this, you don't need aggressive hack-and-leak tactics which Russia deployed against Hillary Clinton. You simply amplify the migration-related narratives and keep cultivating the far right which is already quite strong.

snip

[DFW]

9. Ever heard of Stieg Larsson?

He died of a "sudden" heart attack at age 50. No one ever knew just what was supposed to have caused it. His novels about corruption in Sweden angered a lot of Swedish high-ups. The last film in his Lisbeth Salander trilogy, Luftslottet Som Sprängdes ("The Castle In The Air That Blew Up" ), was one of the most powerful Swedish films to come out in the last 30 years. In English, it was called "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo." It exposed a true shadow state within the state, and some in Sweden started to suspect that Larsson was writing about something far closer to the truth than most people suspected. He was often vague when asked if he was writing only pure fiction. Interestingly enough, we get a lot of Scandinavian crime shows here in Germany, and more than HALF of them have honest cops operating under the burden of corrupt superiors, who are in cahoots with corrupt politicians or businessmen.

[Celerity]

15. Of course, Larsson is amongst the most well known Swedes of the past 50 years.

His probate case has been a bloody nightmare for 15 years. He was under an identity masking secrecy order and could not marry his sambo (partner) Eva Gabrielsson due to his journo work exposing far right wing extremists. A marriage would have exposed them to public records and thus put their lives in danger. That made his probate case incredibly contentious.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

11. Ideology should never disregard evidence. nt

[Celerity]

16. good luck selling that here!!!

[defacto7]

18. From what I've read I expected as much.

I don’t know if you've ever heard of Elisabeth Söderström but she and her husband were dear friends. They taught me a great deal about Swedish politics and culture. I can understand your point.

[Celerity]

20. the opera singer?

I know of her vaguely, but not terribly familiar with her work. My father (he is full Swede) is a huge fan. I share his love of jazz, but alas, not opera, at least not to a significant degree. Very cool that you were great friends with her though!

My MIL lives on the same island (Lidingö, right next to the innerstad ie. central Stockholm) as they did.

cheers

Cel <3

[defacto7]

22. I would just leave it there but I feel compelled to say

she was so much more than an opera singer. She was one of the finest human beings I have ever known. She was a masterful story teller and extremely funny, quite a stateswoman as well. I spent some wonderful evenings in their home where she and Sverker introduced me to Ingmar Bergman and to punsch. They were kind, generous and gracious people and if she heard me saying this she would laugh her head off.

Anyway, I felt like saying that... memories you know.

[Celerity]

24. I so appreciate you sharing that

tack så mycket

[Totally Tunsie]

23. Yikes! My son and his family are moving to Gothenburg, which

is supposed to take place this summer. COVID-19 has put their move in jeopardy because of the timing. Their "go-see" trip to find housing, which should have been this week, has been cancelled until further notice, but dear son is still expected to be there for June 1.

The information you provided above does not make this mom happy.

[Celerity]

25. are they buying a flat? If not, they are going to have to rent andra hand (2nd hand ie. sublet)

To get a first hand rental contract, you have to go on list, and the waiting times in Stockholm and Göteborg (Gothenburg) are insane. In some neighbourhoods (like ours, Södermalm, in central Stockholm) the waiting times are over 20 years. It is completely illegal to buy a första hand contract via the black market. Göteborg is a little easier than Stockholm to find something, but not by a great deal.

It is much easier to buy a flat (we did), but you are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars for something decent, especially in Stockholm. Göteborg is more reasonable. If they are going to buy, they also need to take the månadsavgift (monthly maintenance fee) into account. some are quite low, but others can be 5000, 6000kr per month (500, 600 usd or more)

here is a good source for flats for sale (bostadsrätter) and then hyresrätter (rentals), both andra hand and also byte (swap, which will not apply, as they will have no första hand contract to swap)

https://www.blocket.se/annonser/goteborg?r=15

lycka till! (good luck!)

[Totally Tunsie]

26. From what they've told me, I believe they are planning

on leasing a flat or house. I'm not privy to all the details of their relocation package, as this is a company move and he is under contact.

Their Swedish contacts for immigration, housing, education, and transportation have been absolutely stellar. They are in good hands. My g-children's school has been arranged, down to the point of signing them up for sports team participation. Everything has been working well, except for the COVID interruption.

Thank you for providing your helpful information. I'll pass it along to my son.

[Turin_C3PO]

28. A bit off-topic but

do you have any idea which, if any, European countries would admit someone on SSDI and Medicare (don’t know if I could keep that in Europe)? I would really like to leave the USA if Trump wins re-election.

[Celerity]

29. If you have family ties or an EU partner/spouse, then most all

would allow you to obtain leave to remain. Also, if you have above a certain amount of money (probably 10 million USD or more) and agree to invest it in that nation. Finally, you can get in via a job transfer, or if you obtain a job in a shortage occupation. You also can try amd come as a student and then secure permanent employment, but that is age restricted.

It is extremely hard for an American to move to yhe EU if you do not meet any of the above. The easiest way is family ties (parent or sometimes grandparent who was a citizen) or have an EU legal partner/spouse.

If you just want to get out of the US if Trump wins again, I would suggest you look at Costa Rica and some of the South America nations. The cost of living in many is extremely low and there are already a lot of American expats in many. Uruguay is great, overall a very high standard of living, great climate, legal weed (lolol, I do not even smoke), very LGBTQ friendly (for SA) etc. Ecuador and Bolivia are amongst the lowest costs of living.

Good luck!

[Turin_C3PO]

31. Ok, thanks for the info!

Looks like Costa Rica or Uruguay may be in my future if the Orange fascist prevails again.

[Celerity]

32. feel free to PM me anytime if you ever wish to

stay safe!