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citizen blues

(570 posts)
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 12:43 PM Sep 2012

Response to FB Post

Tim: Socialism is a sibling of communism, with either one the individual is still OWNED by the government.


My Response:

What drives me crazy with words like communism thrown around is that it is so often equated to fascism when in reality they are exact opposites. While communism is government control over business, fascism is business control over government. Both are typically totalitarian.

If you are going to argue that socialism is the sibling of communism, then the corporatism that we have now is surely the sibling of fascism. Socialism's goal is to benefit everyone; corporatism's goal is to benefit an elite few.

Let me put it another way, socialism has given us medicare, social security, public education and the interstate highway system. Corporatism has given us out-of-control lobbying, a paid for congress, a bought SCOTUS, and Citizen's United. Not really difficult to figure out which presents the greater threat to our democracy.

34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Response to FB Post (Original Post) citizen blues Sep 2012 OP
Corporatism has also brought us unchecked pollution. Scuba Sep 2012 #1
And a permanent state of war. zeemike Sep 2012 #23
Of course. I'm remiss by not mentioning it. Thank you. Scuba Sep 2012 #27
Exactly and well said! And Romney wants to add 2.1 Trillion more to the RKP5637 Sep 2012 #28
bravo TeamPooka Sep 2012 #2
Hmmm. PowerToThePeople Sep 2012 #3
Excellent Response WiffenPoof Sep 2012 #4
K&R. Well said. Overseas Sep 2012 #5
bookmark to return to - excellent response. rurallib Sep 2012 #6
kr nt docgee Sep 2012 #7
That was a great response. Ruby the Liberal Sep 2012 #8
We are CLOSE to Fascism, but not quite there. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #9
They should update this clip... Blue Belle Sep 2012 #11
People forget how bad things were under Bush. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #14
next! heaven05 Sep 2012 #16
nope heaven05 Sep 2012 #17
I'm saving this response... Blue Belle Sep 2012 #10
Cons just say they are against corporatism booley Sep 2012 #12
They think the words are interchangeable lunatica Sep 2012 #13
citizen, that's about the best quick definition I've ever seen!!! BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2012 #15
Democratic process gave us those benefits. WtP CHOSE to be socially responsible. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #18
What IS Interdependence? Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #19
They did a study a while back and 72% of students believed in WWII,... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #20
I'd say Socialism is the parent of communism because all communists are socialist but not all social craigmatic Sep 2012 #21
Pure Communism is where the state owns all means of production. ErikJ Sep 2012 #22
What part of a government OF BY AND FOR its people.... chknltl Sep 2012 #24
Good logic. You might be a socialist if: ErikJ Sep 2012 #25
I like that! - n/t mazzarro Sep 2012 #29
Thanks for that and the link! freshwest Sep 2012 #31
Guilty as charged! I am indeed a socislist by those examples. chknltl Sep 2012 #32
K&R nt avebury Sep 2012 #26
Excellent. Will look again to see what the answers were. freshwest Sep 2012 #30
And I'll bet you heard crickets in reply. intheflow Sep 2012 #33
Correction: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2012 #34

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
23. And a permanent state of war.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:35 PM
Sep 2012

Because once an industry becomes powerful they cannot be cut and always must grow...and a permanent state of war makes that happen.
That is why Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex....and we failed to listen to him....were he alive today he would tell us he told us so.

RKP5637

(67,032 posts)
28. Exactly and well said! And Romney wants to add 2.1 Trillion more to the
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

defense department/contractors. It really makes one wonder if Romney plans on creating WWIII for the profit of his defense contractor buddies. I really see no way in hell that this defense department spending bubble for the MIC is going to spiral downward. Too many are making too many $$$'s off of defense spending. Eisenhower was sooo correct.

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/05/10/481764/romney-military-spending-2-trillion/?mobile=nc

Mitt Romney is campaigning for president on fiscal responsibility. “The mission to restore America begins with getting our fiscal house in order,” he says. At the same time, the presumptive GOP nominee says he wants to increase military spending. His campaign website claims that a President Romney will peg the Pentagon’s budget to Gross Domestic Product “at a floor of 4 percent of GDP.” What will that mean in dollars? CNNMoney reports that under Romney’s plan, “the additional spending really piles up in future years”:

With the Pentagon’s base budget — which does not include war costs — forecast to hit 3.5% of GDP in 2013, a jump to 4% would mean an increase of around $100 billion dollars in defense spending in 2013.

Compared to the Pentagon’s current budget, Romney’s plan would lead to $2.1 trillion in additional spending over the next ten years, according to an analysis conducted for CNNMoney by Travis Sharp, a budget expert at the Center for a New American Security.

And that number assumes a gradual increase to 4% of GDP. The additional spending would hit $2.3 trillion over a decade if the Pentagon’s budget were to immediately jump to 4% of GDP.[...]

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
3. Hmmm.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:31 PM
Sep 2012

Socialism play /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system characterised by social ownership, control of the means of production through cooperative management of the economy,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
9. We are CLOSE to Fascism, but not quite there.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:34 PM
Sep 2012

Under Fascism if you told your boss to screw himself he could call the cops and have you arrested for actual treason instead of just charging you with insubordination and firing you.

That said, my friend Eric Blumrich did this clip in the Bush Years from the audio of Malloy I provided to White Rose:

Blue Belle

(5,912 posts)
11. They should update this clip...
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:37 PM
Sep 2012

with images from tea party rallies...

Seriously. If they did, I'd post it on facebook in a heartbeat.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
14. People forget how bad things were under Bush.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:50 PM
Sep 2012

So use it as is for a reminder and then challenge people to make the claim that Obama didn't change things.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
16. next!
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:53 PM
Sep 2012

next generation after these ensuing four years is going to have to be highly vigilant of erosion of their human rights, not just in america but worldwide. I am so glad I won't be here. I'll be on the planet Golob I heard. Oh that's right it's only for mormons. small joke.

Blue Belle

(5,912 posts)
10. I'm saving this response...
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:34 PM
Sep 2012

Some of my redneck facebook friends love to play the "Socialism=Fascism" card. They really need to have a helpful chart describing all the "isms". Of course these are the same people that want the government out of their medicare...

booley

(3,855 posts)
12. Cons just say they are against corporatism
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:41 PM
Sep 2012

that somehow every republican take over of Congress only helps advance more corporatism just never dawns on them.

What's that phrase.. useful idiots?

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
13. They think the words are interchangeable
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:50 PM
Sep 2012

All they know is that Communism is bad and Communists are our arch enemies. Why? Who cares. They just are.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
15. citizen, that's about the best quick definition I've ever seen!!!
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:51 PM
Sep 2012

And if I ever need to use it, hope you don't mind if I borrow it!!

and Welcome!!

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
18. Democratic process gave us those benefits. WtP CHOSE to be socially responsible.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:05 PM
Sep 2012

Democratic process gave us those benefits. CHOSE to be socially responsible.
WE the People CHOSE social responsibility because it works here.

may have taken bits and pieces out of socialism and communism, but we MADE them our own and created the American Way of doing things by voting these policies and procedures into being because they made sense to and for the majority of Americans.

can change our minds about that at any time. Some people think they are freely resisting these aspects, but they are being misled and misinformed at the most innocent levels and directly lied to at the most irresponsible levels of this political .

Colonial Rule was rejected here because our elitist, rich leaders were out of touch with what was needed here in the new territory and were making a mess of things. ARE THERE AGAIN in spirit vs real time.

The new plan then was a Democratic Republic and that is about building a common wealth and creating communities that have a say in their governance. It's been about a BALANCE between those in Power and the People.

IT NEEDS TO BE ABOUT THAT AGAIN. BALANCE between those in Power and the People has been shifted by GREED. $$$$ Rules and people die. Corporation$ are given per$ and people are buried under the weight of supporting those giant, needy abominations in our communities.

Don't get me wrong. I think there are Corporations that behave with integrity and give back to the community.

BUT when Citizen's United made them people, it was like putting artificial intelligence into a car, letting it vote and treating it as a real human being. Would a car like that EVER vote to end fossil fuel use even if it could be easily converted to clean energy power? "What about MY rights?" and on and on. Stupid argument because cars aren't people, but neither are corporations.

PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE. PERIOD.

Corporations need to go back in their own special box and stay there.

PEOPLE need to take the lead and get er done.

The healthy way to relate to one another in a community is INTERDEPENDENCE.

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
19. What IS Interdependence?
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:09 PM
Sep 2012

INTERDEPENDENCE to me means:

1) I am able to take care of my own needs for the most part and I am responsible for myself and to others on a daily basis.
2) There are things I can't do alone. (EX: build an interstate highway.)
3) In communities everyone has different skills.
4) My skills can help others and theirs can help me.
5) The ability to ask for help and help others when needed is a sign of a balanced mind/ego.
6) A good government facilitates this process.
a) At the local level by:
i) Planning and zoning to make it easier to find resources
ii) Bringing people together to exchange skills and goods
iii) Making laws that keep things balanced and fair
b) At the state or regional level by:
i) Having a process to reach out if more resources needed.
ii) Facilitating large scale projects
iii) Making laws that regulate balance and fairness on a larger scale.
c) At the national level by:
i) Facilitating resource exchange at the global level.
ii) By full collective power creating a positive national community.
iii) Using the full collective to create fair national legislation/regulation.
7) A responsible individual in a Democracy holds their leaders accountable to facilitating the process of Interdependence.
a) At the local level by:
i) Obeying local laws and ordinances.
ii) Buying local when possible.
iii) Electing local leaders and work to change the laws when necessary.
b) At the state or regional level by:
i) Obeying state laws.
ii) Bringing ones skills to state/regional projects if so talented.
iii) Electing state leaders to be one's voice at the state/regional level.
c) At the national level by:
i) Obeying federal laws.
ii) Taking action as a good global citizen when the need arises.
iii) Holding congress critters responsible to create fair national laws.
iv) Electing new national leaders periodically as needed.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
20. They did a study a while back and 72% of students believed in WWII,...
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:25 PM
Sep 2012

....we fought WITH Germany against the the Communists in the Soviet Union.

To listen to the Right Wing, Hitler was a Liberal/Socialist/Communist.

For the record:

Socialism was very popular in Germany. Hitler included it in the name of his party BUT said the BENEFITS of socialism should be limited to "True Germans" which is why it's called "National Socialism". The Right Wing today is using the same mindset by claiming Obama is stealing from white people's benefits to give free stuff to black people.

Hitler actually hated Socialism and met secretly with business leaders to assure them he felt they should be able to keep their money and land. Over time the party faithful grew angry that Hitler had broken his promises. Big estates weren't being broken up and distributed amongst the poorer people and the royal titles were still valid (like Barons and Counts). Hitler assassinated the leader of that movement for treason. He then set out to put the richest people in Germany in charge of the agencies that used to regulate them.

Bush actually did that too when he put a former lobbyist for the timber industry in charge of the nation's forests.

 

craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
21. I'd say Socialism is the parent of communism because all communists are socialist but not all social
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:26 PM
Sep 2012

-ists become communists. There's more than 1 type of socialism and really America isn't capitalist or socialist it's a mixed system which is in danger because of too much emphasis on capitalism. Certain things shouldn't be for sale and that's what conservatives don't understand.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
22. Pure Communism is where the state owns all means of production.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:30 PM
Sep 2012

That's a hell of a long way from European Democratic Socialism.

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
24. What part of a government OF BY AND FOR its people....
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:51 PM
Sep 2012

....isn't socialism? Don't believe in socialism then you don't believe in the American People.

That is how I dish it out to those guys. Leaves em with their jaws down around their knees. Sure, I know that ours is instead a representative democracy, but the typical fox viewer would be hard pressed to tell the difference. (Hell I can't really tell the difference).

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
25. Good logic. You might be a socialist if:
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 04:22 PM
Sep 2012

You might be a socialist if you ever had to call the police.
You might be a socialist if you ever summoned the fire department.
You might be a socialist if you ever drove your car on a public street or walked on a public sidewalk.
You might be a socialist if you use a municipal sewer service.
You might be a socialist if you get your water from a public water system.
You might be a socialist if you get your electric power from a public utility district.
You might be a socialist if you ever use a public library.
You might be a socialist if you have ever or plan to ever accept a social security check.
You might be a socialist if you use or plan to use Medicare or Medicaid.
You might be a socialist if you or your children attended public school.
You might be a socialist if you ever ride public transit.
You might be a socialist if your bank account is insured by the FDIC.
You might be a socialist if your or a member of your family went to college on a government subsidized student loan.
You might be a socialist if you ever took a trip on AMTRAK.
You might be a socialist if you ever needed the services of a fire department ambulance and EMT.
You might be a socialist if you have sent or received mail via the US Post Office.
You might be a socialist if you were ever represented in a legal matter by a public defender.
You might be a socialist if you ever referred a child to a child welfare office for protection.
You might be a socialist if you ever used electric power produced by Federally built dams.
You might be a socialist if you ever filed suit in a Federal, County, or City court.
You might be a socialist if you ever used a Federal, state, or city park.
You might be a socialist if you have ever used a public swimming pool.
You might be a socialist if you ever sought the help of a government official in solving a problem.
You might be a socialist if you ever benefited from the government regulation of private business.
You might be a socialist if you have benefited from the services of the CDC, FAA, FTSB, or other government agency.
You might be a socialist if your rights and safety have ever been defended by the armed forces.
You might be a socialist if you or a family member has ever been rescued by the Coast Guard or National Guard.
You might be a socialist if an airplane you flew on was guided to a safe landing by an air traffic controller.
You might be a socialist if felons in your area are placed in prison and the criminally insane in asylums.
You might be a socialist if you use the internet, a system developed originally by the U.S. military and scientific groups.
You might be a socialist if you have benefited in any way from research conducted by public universities.
You might be a socialist if you or any of your family have attended a public university or community college.
You might be a socialist if local public employees have cleared your streets of snow, picked up your litter, repaired potholes, or any of hundreds of other necessary tasks.
You might be a socialist if a local municipal garbage service has carried off your trash and your recyclables
You might be a socialist if state or local forestry workers have fought forest fires and maintained healthy forests in your area.
You might be a socialist if state and federal fishery workers have tried to save endangered salmon so you can continue to eat them.
You might be a socialist if you have been involved in a natural disaster and received help from a federal or state disaster relief programs.
You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the passage of a law that requires or bans activities by your fellow citizens which respectively benefit or harm you.
You might be a socialist if you own or work for any business that receives government subsidies or receives tax breaks for locating in particular areas.
You might be a socialist if you attend your favorite pro team’s games in their partially tax funded parks, stadium, or arena.
You might be a socialist if you attend the games of a state college athletic team.
You might be a socialist if you invest in government securities like savings bonds or T bills.
You might be a socialist if you are a public employee.
You might be a socialist if you accepted the tax write off for buying a new home recently offered by the government.
You might be a socialist if you acquired a new car under the Cash for Clunkers program.
You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the document which begins: “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
In short, you might be a socialist if you accept any service, program, or benefit that is supported in whole or in part by tax money.
I’m sure all those good folks protesting government programs like health care because they are socialistic will lead by example and forswear using all of the above socialistic agenda items and any others that may have been omitted.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/myoregon/2009/09/you_might_be_a_socialist.html

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
32. Guilty as charged! I am indeed a socislist by those examples.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:59 PM
Sep 2012

Actually, like most, I believe in democratically controlled socialism. I am not against capitalism but I would like to see it brought back under OUR control. A socialist democracy with a capitalism base controlled by that democracy.

Contrary to popular conservative opinion We The People can control our capitalistic base and do so by not smothering it with socialism. (They would have us believe that we would redistribute the cash of our society equally to all in some kind of freaky pure example of socialism, I would argue that we have better 'herd survival' sense than this).

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
34. Correction:
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:45 PM
Sep 2012

Socialism is Labor (i.e. the people) managing the means of production and controlling its own product. It doesn't require state or government control. Of the many variants of socialism, libertarian socialism stresses a non-hierarchical, free and voluntary association, classless and stateless society. This finds its natural tradition in anarchism. Left communists, council communists, dissident Marxists all take this as their principle.

Where Marx believed in a transitory phase of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as "socialism", anarchists and other socialists disagreed. Even Marx waffled on this when he saw the free and self-emancipation of the Paris Communards.

"Socialism will be free, or it will not be at all." - anarchist Benjamin Tucker

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