Castro's Legacy for Cuba, Latin America, and the World

I am going to include this, (one of many actually) article that provides another view on the matter at hand, for your reference lest there be too much cognitive dissonance about how an icon of human rights could have such a perspective, (not everything in this world is about US policies and actions even if that is the intent behind it).

Why Nelson Mandela Loved Fidel Castro
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nelson-mandela-castro_n_4400212

They have better healthcare and education than everyone else in this hemisphere.
What's more Latin America and the Caribbean have benefited big time from their generosity re providing doctors and nurses for the rest of us. They understand the importance of community.

That said I prefer the mixed economy approach of the Scandinavians to the Cuban model.

I'd like someone to explain to me how imposing sanctions on a sovereign country because they refuse to defer to a big power's interests has any thing to do with values, freedom or democracy.
Sometimes I just want to jump off of this planet.

Thanks for your post.

When talking geopolitics, some people can't seem to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There's plenty about Cuba to criticize, but they have very high human development indicators (life expectancy at birth, education and literacy, etc.), and they do it with a MUCH smaller material footprint than rich countries with similar or lower human development scores. Costa Rica is another example of such a phenomenon. Given the urgency of climate change (and ecological overshoot in general), I'd like it if people could look at these countries with clear eyes and acknowledge the things they do right and try to learn from them.

but it's my way or the highway for some folks

I appreciate you bringing up the provision of doctor's and nurses.

I think that any and every leader, system and country deserves intelligent investigation and criticism, (or you get Trumped) and that is especially so when much of the information on hand is derived from rather obvious political attempts to manufacture the consent of the people, which applies here.

What is most troubling is the shelf-life of that biased presentation. You can bet that we will see many knee-jerk reactions to the Castro comment mostly based on an older, official version of things designed to protect and promote an agenda, (and which does not take into account the extremely negative impacts of the agenda or its motives).

Yes, I agree, I would prefer the Scandinavian approach, but wonder if it is scalable and viable here and if the TPB would even give way to it. I don't consider Castro and Cuba a preferable system, but they were resilient in the face of constant threat and attacks, which is useful in a sense. The story itself is interesting and multifaceted, (negative and positive) and there is no simple way to describe it accurately.

In answer to your question, you may not really want to know the answer to that. If you avoid conspiracy theories, (which are opinionated, often paranoid and biased, as well as appearing to be replacements for what we call religion) you will find that there are valid conspiracies, (and have been all a long) that are unsettling, dark, but do make sense when it comes to fulfilling certain kinds of agendas. If you read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent, (as a primer, if you haven't) and the BBC's, Century of the Self, you get a sense of the underlying tactics that are used and also understand why, (especially in a country like the US where propaganda is preferred to bullets like in totalitarian states). I mean, you almost have to use it to subvert the people's will into a specific agenda, and that is the key.

we need the best from all available options.
One thing for sure, neo-liberalism ushered in by Reagan and Thatcher has been an abysmal failure for all but the billionaires.

I want to throw something out there and get your reaction, if you're willing.

The Scandinavian approach has a lot going for it. But it does involve a fair amount of extraction from the "global south" (both in terms of financial flows and material resources), and a level of consumption that is not ecologically sustainable. I don't have an alternative in my back pocket or anything, and I think if the US was more like the Nordic countries (in terms of political economy) it would represent an improvement. But I don't think their system represents an answer, so to speak.

Do you have any thoughts about this?

I am not an economist, so it is difficult to really assess how well their kind of system would work for us, as I mentioned, scale is one point, but you realize the complexity involved and I think the context of the cultures and their history is an important variable.

My response was indicating that I would prefer that model to what Cuba has, but I think that is not a subject of dispute by those who know the difference.

There are, of course, flaws and problems in the Scandinavian countries that are peculiar to their system and, of course, contrary to circulating opinions, they are not very socialist at all, depending on what criteria they use. They certainly are not the utopias that they seem to be when you investigate it more.

I agree with your point about ecological sustainability, but that's in the data; they have a huge carbon footprint for instance. Meanwhile, they have a rather homogeneous spread of wealth across the population in comparison to the US. So, the question there is the relationship of the two and what the answers implicate. And yes, there is that problem of material resources, however, that is, as we know, going to be a prominent issue, globally for the World and right down to potable drinking water which is a looming crises in itself and will have a dramatic impact overall.

My view is that the future may be more about a careful and more harmonious blending of different economic policies, (if we can get out from under a dominator/hierarchy only model = very difficult) that are more dynamic, pragmatic and even digitally and allegorically influenced economies that are resource aware and dedicated to more efficient use of financial and material resources in an interactive, interdependent way. There may be some rudimentary infrastructure at play already along those lines, (see: Germany). To me it is like a potential, ground-up and emergent style of economy in the making and that's all about the Fourth Industrial Revolution that is underway and something to keep tabs on and apply some activism to in order that both oversight and accountability are applied along the way, or it just becomes another means to promote and expand Neoliberalism and subservience as well as higher and finer degress of control via surveillance capitalism, (already in progress).

Now, that may have its pros and cons, as well, (especially when it comes to countries that are about stacking the deck) and it may sound utopian in itself, but I think it was a better way to express my views on your questions than to go into detail about a particular system, other than that we should examine them in depth and see what would be most useful and work the best for the most people. Maybe my intent is to consider visionary extrapolations on economy in light of the current problems with existing systems and accelerating change. I often wonder how many political and economic views may become obsolete due to this in a relatively short period of time by historical comparison. In fact, I see a correlation between that and some of the current political turmoil and confusion on the surface.

Gee, I hope that was saying something relevant, at least. Captain Loquacious Tangent here. Let me know if it was an answer.

https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/exploring-mysteries-cubas-coral-reefs

Coral reefs do better when they have plenty of fish in all sizes. Cuba’s reefs have fared well because many still have small and large species that other places have lost.

Dan Whittle directs the Cuba Program at the nonprofit Environmental Defense Fund in Washington, D.C. He explains that larger animals, such as sharks and other big fish, eat smaller ones. This helps maintain a healthy balance between predators and prey.

The reefs, in turn, are a key link in a chain of connected habitats that includes coastal swamps and the deeper ocean. Neighboring the Bay of Pigs is Cuba’s Zapata Swamp. Some biologists consider it the most important wetland in the Caribbean. Eighty percent of Cuba’s species can be found here, including the critically endangered Cuban crocodile.

To the east, scuba divers and researchers love exploring another underwater wonderland. It’s called Gardens of the Queen National Park and is about 90 kilometers (56 miles) off of Cuba’s southeastern shore. Coral reefs there are so pristine that some visitors have nicknamed it “The Crown Jewel of the Caribbean.”

One potential reason for the Cuban reefs’ good health is that the country has less pollution than in neighboring countries. Cuban farmers use fewer chemicals on their fields that can wash into the ocean when it rains. Cuba also hasn’t built as many homes and businesses along its coastline as many other nations have. In all, the country has protected about 23 percent of the shallow ocean waters surrounding the island. (A total fishing ban in some of those areas helps protect fish of all sizes. It also keeps the number of predators and prey in balance.) About 3 percent of U.S. waters are in comparable protected zones.

Cuba’s conservation record isn’t perfect. And plenty of challenges remain. Enforcing rules to protect the environment can be especially hard in a poor country. “You have to take into consideration that there are priorities for Cuba. And one of those priorities for the Cuban government is providing food,” observes Jorge Angulo-Valdés. He’s a marine biologist and conservationist in Cuba at the University of Havana.

----------------------------
The key here is that Cuba uses less pesticides than

I don't know if what you've written is an answer or not, because I don't know exactly what I was asking, but it's a response I can work with.

I've spent time in a couple of the Nordic countries and know people who have lived there since birth, whereas I've never set foot in Cuba and have no Cuban friends. My instinct is that I, like you, would choose the Scandinavian system over the Cuban system (for myself, at least), but I imagine pleasant and fulfilling lives probably exist in both places.

The more I study the question, the more convinced I am that as long as capitalism retains global dominance, the problems of climate change and ecological overshoot will only continue to get worse. More social democracy would certainly improve things here in the US, at least according to my way of thinking (I know others differ), but social democracy retains market imperatives. As long as they obtain - especially the growth imperative - I don't see how we will arrive at an ecologically sustainable way of life.

If one cross-references some of the generally accepted key measures of human development (e.g. education levels and life expectancy) with measures of sustainability (e.g. material consumption and carbon emissions) Cuba comes out on top. This makes me think there are lessons to be learned (without adopting the Cuban system wholesale).

Backing away from that level of radicalism... As far as the question about something like Scandinavian social democracy would work here, I'm reasonably certain that the only impediments are political, not economic - that is to say, people's attitudes and the distribution of power in society are the main obstacles.

I like how this thread is going, actually.

Seldom to I see a good line of responses that bring up salient points.

To me, experience has a precedence, so your time in the Nordic countries adds a dimension to your points. Thanks for sharing them.

I am in agreement with how you are presenting it, and open-ended is probably a good approach considering the many views and variables involved. I tend to go off on long tangents, but that's because the devil is often in the details.

As for your last paragraph. Ditto on the political impediments, (which are extensions of the ideologies behind them that are influenced by agendas of those who have a vested interest in them). I think that is why, (i am biased here) Chomsky is a great resource for that. He really uncovers a lot, puts things into a manageable perspective, and delineates the underlying aspects of the systems of power and how they operate. That's almost like finding the instruction manual, even though there is a huge volume of material overall. In a sense, he does often whittle it down to the most pertinent and useful chunks, enough to to illustrate and diagram the PATTERNS involved. That a key word there, because the strategies are the process and the context of the events, whereas the numerous contents are the specific events, the spin on them, the what, where, when, maybe why, but the how is what we are after.

From there, you can check the information, correct errors, (even Chomsky is defers to that) refute what may seem to be narrow or biased, and then move on to actually deal with the political aspects of it and the rather immense mechanisms in place that promote and propagate it. One or two of us is not going to do that, but starting from here, (with a template like the above) that's how movements get some momentum and it is going to come from more honest and accurate information, first and foremost.

I truly appreciate your comments and ideas.

I'm enjoying this conversation. I can get very preoccupied with abstract questions about political philosophy/political economy in a way that makes people lose patience with me (I think they don't see any practical value in such discussions. They're probably right.).

Chomsky has helped me too, in much the same way you suggest - I find his information valuable and his method of inquiry useful. In general I appreciate efforts to both reveal and challenge assumptions.

If you're interested, my comments on human development and sustainability came from a paper I read last year. It's here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800919303386

Will check out the link.

Agree on all points. Giving credit where credit is due seems to be what Sanders is doing yet the neoliberal greed monkeys want to nail him for being honest. They're the ones who need to jump off this planet.



Get ready for the Republican Red Scare Campaign 2020.

They love the current model - just think ad money

when she brought on Republican Steve Schmidt to blow Red Scare shit all over the place.

I'm not watching them before 6.00pm with Ari and even he gets on my nerves quite often.
Rachel is the only one I always watch - I like Lawrence but I usually fall asleep since we walk early in the morning. I'll watch more of him when they turn back the clock on Sunday.

decided to undo all progress. I met many Cubans in 2018 who were starting private businesses. They were so happy that Obama let Americans go there.

I hope it informs you well and is beneficial.

Cuban people with embargoes for having the temerity to refuse the yoke of US imperialism is disgusting.

on an educational trip for 2 weeks. The Castro literacy program Bernie mentioned is a smashing success as he said, and is a point of pride in Cuba. Cuba has a literacy rate of something ridiculous (at least to us) like 98%! And there were other successes we saw and learned about, and failures as well, which is normally the case anywhere one goes. Their infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S., for example.

At this moment Bernie Sanders is being totally assassinated on Deadline: White House by Steve Schmidt, a Republican, and Nicole Wallace, which breaks my heart. I like them both as a rule, but they seem to be pushing for anyone running who will maintain the right of center Democratic camp.

I'm supporting Elizabeth right now, financially and otherwise, but this bullshit makes me want to move to the Bernie camp. It's so unfair how he is being piled on for caring for the little guy over big Pharma, big Insurance and corporate interests.

Cubans have beautiful teeth

And most of them were good looking people in general (and fun)!

Dental health for all Americans is anathema! BOO!

We have plenty of people who have bad teeth, recurrent infections and who rely on extractions as their main treatment, if they can get that. We don't even recognize dental health as a part of overall, medical health, which still befuddles me. Get an abscess and see if that's not a health-related medical emergency based on your dental health.

Beautiful teeth? What? That must be some socialist-communist plot thing to destroy capitalism. No, i will gum my food thank you. It's the patriotic thing to do.

We rarely look at anything with critical thinking. Cuba is bad. They are the bad guys. That is what I was taught in grade school and high school, and the education I received was pretty decent.

It wasn't until University (that place of left wing indoctrination) that I learned about actual history between the US and Cuba.

I am not saying that it is all rosy and great, but Cuba held up remarkably well under constant threat and embargo from the US. They have a lot of accomplishments despite their struggles.

We seem to have a fixation in the US for simple narratives of good v. evil and we LOVE to be the "good".

when in actuality we operate in gray areas mostly. Life is complicated and critical thinking is necessary for everyone.

But sadly,people are more easily manipulated if we keep it simple.

although the hurricane folks n the Gulf and Atlantic Coasts borrow from their preparation and evacuation model. Many countries have been to Cuba to borrow from their healthcare model.
I prefer eclectic over dogmatic.

We know that black and white thinking may be a drawback now that represents an important tool for survival. In a desperate, dangerous situation, we may be forced with stay and fight or run and hide. We are not going to contemplate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle or if Nike would have been a better choice in running shoes. It's life or death, now or never.

I just think we are, generally, slow to realizing just how strong that impulse is and how it affects our thinking when the world and most of what we do involves so much complexity and nuance and graduations as well. Maybe it needs to be emphasized more? I find myself doing it from time to time and I see the dualism there, either or, flip-flop and it is often a reflection of the past, my biases and sometimes, incorrect information informing the binary choices.

Let's just say that there are appropriate times when you best black and white the situation, but they should be obvious, and, you may not even have a conscious choice. As for the vagaries of modern life, that can be a real hindrance to freedom and understanding, (tyrants and Fascists capitalize greatly on conceptual bifurcation).

Since it is black and white thinking tend to be unconscious and automatic, we may want to consider collectively and individually giving ourselves a good nudge often to wake up and see the spectrum of experience and the excluded middle.

the brainwashing associated with 'manufacturing consent'.

Yes, malaise. Glad you brought that up. True.

I think of it also as what is called a false dilemma. Those are often used on children, (hey, you have to start somewhere with discipline until they catch on to it). Either finish your dinner or go directly to bed. Oh, we know there are plenty of other options, (and some are better to the child, or just as good as finishing dinner) but they are taken at face value: either this or that.

So, that is a good example of how that works, to me.

Also, let's not forget double-binds, which can drive people insane or be used as a brainwashing tools. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

...please do not forget that he was a brutal authoritarian who did not tolerate dissent and brutally oppressed some communities, including a good friend of mine’s uncle, who died in a labor camp for the crime of being homosexual.

Keep in mind that many brutal dictators advance some positive programs for the people, or at least some segment of the people. But let’s not laud the individual in face of horrid crimes.

That nobody here has forgotten that, nor are they being apologists for his crimes and atrocities.

It is the same as when we overlook our country's atrocities and its overlooking of them, like East Timor, (as only one of many examples). We still care about our country though and the good aspects of what it is and does, being the freest, but we do not have to hide or deny them.

I guess you could say that, even though Trump is President and dictatorial, (and people certainly are suffering under his policies, as per the families and were broken up and small children in cages, or hunger by taking away SNAP) we still hold our country and system in high regard and are thankful for the good aspects of it, even despite the destructive nature of a leader.

Let's hope we don't go there, also. So, your point is well taken and we have to be wary of that.

Thanks!

several times. Most dictators do not advance positive programs for anyone outside of their corrupt circle.

'dictatoring' on behalf of the exploiters.

Alerted on for being in the wrong forum. Needs to be in the Dem Primaries forum because it relates to Sanders’ candidacy.

If the topic or substance of a thread includes reference to any of the candidates or to the primaries, that post is restricted to posting in the DP forum. Please see the rules about primaries posting: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=9260

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