General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMichigan Woman Brings Miniature Horse on Plane as Her Service Animal: 'He Is So Bonded with Me'
A miniature horse named Freckle Butt Fred recently had the pleasure of flying first class for the first time thanks to his human companion, Ronica Froese.
The 115-pound equine embarked on his inaugural plane ride across the United States on Feb. 7, flying from Grand Rapids, Michigan to Ontario, California with a stopover at the Dallas/Forth Worth International Airport, Froese tells PEOPLE.
As a specially trained service animal, Fred is technically allowed to accompany Froese who owns Little Horses Big Smiles, a company that specializes in equine assisted therapy on commercial flights.
Froese says she and Fred worked with other service horse handlers to prepare for the big trip, including sonic exercises to get the gentle creature accustomed to loud noises and potty training for when he needs to relieve himself at the airport.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/michigan-woman-brings-miniature-horse-234848498.html
How about an emotional support grizzly bear?
Sneederbunk
(14,207 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)dogs and miniature horses are the two animals that are presumptively permitted.
StarryNite
(9,364 posts)pnwmom
(108,925 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)Kashkakat v.2.0
(1,752 posts)poor little dog I saw last time I flew - barking hysterically, trembling in fear and peeing all over. Woman was yukking it up with some other people talking about the dog but totally obvlious to its obvious stress and fear.
We mammals can pretty much read the body language of other mammals - I know stress and fear in an animal when I see it.
I know bone headed oblivious human when I see that too.
msongs
(67,193 posts)Hekate
(90,189 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Service animals that are presumptively permitted are dogs and miniature horses.
Is there a reason you believe this particular service animal is less critical to the owner's ability to live independently than - for example - a seeing eye dog is for somoene who is blind?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I know several people who would go into anaphalactic shock from horse dander.
About 5% of the population is allergic to horses, and they can be bad. Bigger animal = more dander.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Is not an appropriate reason to deny access to her service animal. You have the right to be seated as far away as possible, or to be transported on a different.
From a non-legal perspective, I have much more sympathy for your concerns than I do for everyone else in this thread who seems to believe they know better than her what her needs are - and are entitled to pass judgment on whether she has a disability or a real service animal. It can be a challenge to balance competing health-care needs.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Horse allergies tend to be more severe than dog allergies. I suspect one day this will happen if service horses become more popular - probably after a life thteatening evenr. Sitting far away does nothing in an airplane.
LiberalFighter
(50,499 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)The regulations implementing the ADA expressly identify both dogs and miniature horses as service animals, and businesses are required to accommodate them absent specific reasons to exclude them:
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
LiberalFighter
(50,499 posts)They are just using it as an excuse for the animals. They just don't want to use a blankie or stuff animal for their support.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)It is traveling as her service animal. Would you make that remark to a blind person? Stay at home - or use a blankie or stuffed animal?
Read the article. Read the ADA regulations.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)are for mobility assistance. Blankie's and stuffed animals are not terribly helpful in retrieving things or in providing balance and support while she is walking.
Fred is more for retrieving; Charlie is more for mobility support.
The informaiton is out there, if you want to do more than insult a person with a disability.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)She has deformed feet and her service animal supports some of her weight, and helps her to stay upright when she's walking. He also fetches things for her, but that is not his primary job. Her service animal is a huge dog, but I can see how a properly trained miniature horse would do as well for her particular needs, maybe even better than the dog.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Horses are much better suited to bear weight than even large dogs - and have the added benefit that they live far longer so the person does not have to repeatedly replace their animal.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)of a disabled person. In fact, genuine advocates for people with disabilities are horrified by how an important law is being bastardized and taken advantage of by people who have no business taking animals the places they are doing so. This damages the plight of those disabled who have to have real, highly-trained service animals with them at all times. It turns the law into a mockery.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Read the article.
As a specially trained service animal, Fred is technically allowed to accompany Froese who owns Little Horses Big Smiles, a company that specializes in equine assisted therapy on commercial flights.
. . .
However, Froese says the trip did experience a few bumps along the way. While having a horse on a plane may be a rare occurrence, the trainer says she wishes the public would understand that taking a photo or video with your cellphone of a service animal who is classified as medical equipment without the handlers permission is extremely rude.
. . .
Though Fred also works as a therapy horse alongside Froeses two other miniature horses, Charlie and George, his owner says its important for him to be able to fly because he is a much-needed service animal.
I dont have a mental illness. I have an invisible autoimmune disease, Froese tells PEOPLE. Not all disabilities can be seen and we all deserve the same respect as the blind whose disability can be seen.
She is not obligated to disclose what specific tasks her horse is trained to do in order to satisfy your curiousity, or to avoid being attacked as bastardizing the law.
And the ADA expressly recognizes miniature horses (and dogs) as service animals. That is precisely the reason I posted several times in this thread - because people were responding as it it was an emotional support animal.
Goodheart
(5,264 posts)A service dog fetches and guides. What can that horse do for an immune deficiency? Will she ride it when she has a fever or something?
Sorry. I'm not buying it.
As one poster said, this is a mockery.
We need a Federal law that only dogs and monkeys can fly as service animals. If you require anything else hire a van and driver. Sorry.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)bigger box of chocolates theory of accommodatiosn, in this case - based on the ableist tone in this thread, I'm glad that horses are expressly included in the box.
The regulations implementing the ADA expressly identify two animals as presumptively permitted service animals: dogs and miniature horses.
So there are regulations - and they are the exact opposite of what you hope for.
There are dozens of autoimmune disorders - including type 1 diabetes, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, MS, Guillain-Barre syndrome. Most do not cause fevers. Many of these do cause pain or muscle weakness (lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, MS, Guillain-Barre syndrome). For such diseases, a stronger service animal - one that that can perform physical tasks - such as assisting in mobility or balance - may be critical. As to type 1 diabetes, low blood sugar is a life-threatening condition - and service horses can be trained to detect low blood sugar (in the same way dogs are). There are also individuals who cannot work with dogs for religious reasons - the miniature horse allows these individuals to have a service animal that meets their disability needs without requiring them to violate their religious beliefs.
I have no idea what this person's disability is, or how her horse is trained to meet them. And, frankly, it is none of my business. The ADA requires accommodation of service animal - she is entitled to have her service animal with her.
coti
(4,612 posts)individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities." Again, there is no information in this article that even implies that the horse has an actual function for the woman- and that is the very spirit of the ADA. People with disabilities must be given reasonable accommodations that allow them to function.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2020, 03:14 AM - Edit history (1)
I'm pointing out that it's none of your business.
People do not lose their right to privacy merely because they use a servcice animal. She clearly says the horse is a service animal - and here, and in other articles, clearly distinguishes it from an emotional support animal.
Had she described the horse as an emotional support animal (or it was unclear that she understood the distinction) this would be a different converation. But she didn't. She clearly and repeatedly described the horse as her service animal - AND - went so far as to point out that she is not mentally ill - and to identify a class of largely disabling conditions as the reason she needs the horse (almost certainly to further distinguish her service horse from emotional support animals).
But just as you don't get to pry into the details of someone's blindness, or deafness, or the tools (animal or mechanical) a person with a visible disability uses accommodate their disabilities, you don't get to inquire into the details of this woman's disability or the specific ways the horse helps her cope with it. She is entitled to her privacy, and the fact that her service animal is less usual than a dog doesn't deprive her of her right not to disclose more than she chooses about how the animal assists her - or the specific tasks it is trained to perform in order to provide that assistance.
Under the ADA, she is entitled to have her service animal with her. Period.
But - since apparently everyone believes they have a right to know because she dared to travel with her servcie animal, she's been shamed into providing personal details that are - frankly - no one's business:
So last night my disease was questioned and my need for a service animal by I person I thought was a good friend. What's it like to have an IBD right here are words to describe it.
When you can barely bend over to pick something up because it feels like Freddy Kruger is taking his nails and ripping them through your bowels a service horse helps in that. Fred being directive retrieval trained can pick things up I drop and fetch things I need.
When your bowels feel like this walking across the room becomes a chore. A service horse can help with that. My co workers at work can tell you they know when I'm not well by how I'm walking. I depend on Charlie a lot outside when I'm super sick and he is always by my side to help me during feed time and such. I lean on him, he helps me walk, and he makes sure I don't loose my balance. He retrieves the grain buckets and hay pillows gladly because he knows what his job is. These are all things to some degree Fred is learning but can't fully learn until he is done growing and his joints are mature. He won't be able to do mobility to the extent that Charlie does because of his small size but that's why me having 2 different sizes mini service horses is a fit.
https://www.facebook.com/rfroese23/posts/10219160781542771
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)to be treated with basic human respect - but Fred is trained to retrieve items and is in training to provide mobility and balance support.
And - this woman whose life is already challenging enough because of the disability she is living with has apparently been shamed into disclosing more of the details about her disability (and specifically how her service animal helps her) that she initially chose to keep private.
I don't need to explain why I have or need a service horse but it appears lots of people don't understand. So here's a little look into what it's like.
So last night my disease was questioned and my need for a service animal by I person I thought was a good friend. What's it like to have an IBD right here are words to describe it.
When you can barely bend over to pick something up because it feels like Freddy Kruger is taking his nails and ripping them through your bowels a service horse helps in that. Fred being directive retrieval trained can pick things up I drop and fetch things I need.
When your bowels feel like this walking across the room becomes a chore. A service horse can help with that. My co workers at work can tell you they know when I'm not well by how I'm walking. I depend on Charlie a lot outside when I'm super sick and he is always by my side to help me during feed time and such. I lean on him, he helps me walk, and he makes sure I don't loose my balance. He retrieves the grain buckets and hay pillows gladly because he knows what his job is. These are all things to some degree Fred is learning but can't fully learn until he is done growing and his joints are mature. He won't be able to do mobility to the extent that Charlie does because of his small size but that's why me having 2 different sizes mini service horses is a fit.
Being I was in the hospital last week with a bowel obstruction it's going to take my bowels probably months to recover. Inflammation is a horrible thing. It makes you not want to get out of bed in the morning.
. . .
Last night I was picking up some garbage and I dropped a piece on the floor. My stomach is killing me and Fred immediately tasked picked up the garbage and handed it to me. It's exactly what I needed feeling the way I do and he did exactly the job I trained him to do perfectly.
. . .
I really want his service page to be so people can learn but I also don't want his page and social media to make me feel the way I have on numerous occasions that last 2 weeks.
https://www.facebook.com/rfroese23/posts/10219160781542771
Hope you're happy that shaming and patronizing attitudes like the one you have shown here contributed to coercing a person with a disability into disclosing more than she wanted to, and more than she had any obligation to disclose.
Goodheart
(5,264 posts)no, I don't think disabilities should be accommodated. Sorry.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)for which you need an accommodation that someone else deems absurd.
Goodheart
(5,264 posts)But if I ever need a service horse I'm sure I'd still think of other people, too, and take a cargo van instead of a plane.
Luciferous
(6,067 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)My daugher, who consumes $200,000 in medical care a year just recently decided to train to be a medical coder, because of the challenges she has encountered this year mud wrestling with her care provider and the insurance companies. She's fought battles over $60,000 in care provided to her, that was denied (in substantial part) because of failures in coding.
So it is not at all surprising that someone who needs a service animal is also in the business of training them.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Answer: In first class, next to its human companion with special needs.
Its getting ridiculous.
VarryOn
(2,343 posts)When it said she at least paid for for an extra ticket. Then, she admitted she didnt even have a mental illness. Wait, what?
Going forward, I can quit assuming mental issues when I see someone with one of these.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Merely providing emotional support is the job of an emotional support animal (which is not presumptively permitted everywhere).
It would be uncommon for someone with a service animal to have one because of a mental illness. Although there are some exceptions (PTSD and anxiety, for example), generally service animals assist with physical conditions (blindness, seizures, mobility disorders).
Nature Man
(869 posts)sounds like she's gaming the system.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2020, 10:54 AM - Edit history (1)
It has nothing to do with being a saint.
People with disabilities do not lose their right to privacy merely because need an accommodation for their disabilities - even if that accommodation comes in the form of a miniature horse rather than the more traditional dog. She clearly identifid her horse as a service animal -clearly said it was a service animal - NOT - an emotional support animal, and clearly identified it was for a physical disability. Beyond that - the details of of her condition, or of how her service animal helps her perform the functions of daily living are none of our business.
This shaming is disgraceful - especially coming from someone who is disabled.
I have done further research. She has two service animals, and has succumbed to the past two weeks of shaming (on top of coping with being hospitalized in relation to her disability) and has made further disclosures.
She has two service animals - both horses. Fred (the one who flew with her) retrieves items and will eventually provide some mobility and balance support once his bones are mature. Charlie (older and larger) provides her primary mobility and balance support.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)I agree with you. This is a service animal that is trained to provide her the physical support she needs. She was also very accommodating to his needs and other passengers IE: short flights, bought a 1st class seat next to her for room and has a fitted suit on him incase other passengers were allergic to horses.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Kashkakat v.2.0
(1,752 posts)carted around and put thru loads of unnecessary stress by selfish people.
Whenever I see an animal freaking out in an airport - ie a loud, chaotic strange environment - it really upsets me. Where's MY emotional support?
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)to such circumstances - and receives extensive training both as to environmnt - and the tasks it performs for its owner.
This horse is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. They are different things.
Nature Man
(869 posts)who don't want to share minimal, confined space with a goddamn horse AND pay for the "privilege?"
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Dogs and horses are two types of service animals that are specifically permitted in the ADA regulations (Horses can be excluded basedon an assessment that includes (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owners control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horses type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horses presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.
Airlines are not (as a general rule) required to permit emotional support animals on board. Nor are other animals such as grizzly bears, presumptively permitted as service animals.
flotsam
(3,268 posts)...naked hooker-and if you think having one doesn't improve my emotions it just proves you oppose those of us who are mood-challenged!
tenderfoot
(8,424 posts)eom
SMC22307
(8,088 posts)Then she'd really need Freckle Butt Fred.
Tanuki
(14,893 posts)SMC22307
(8,088 posts)Who cleans it up? Or is he wearing an equine diaper? Is the diaper changed on the plane? Are the passengers enjoying the aroma of miniature horse poop as it wafts through the recycled air vents? Potty trained, his emotional support person says. Does he know how to slide the little "Occupied" thingie and hover over the bowl so as not to touch that disgusting thing? Thoroughly wash his hooves while singing the Happy Birthday song twice? So many questions...
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)he is also trained regarding defecation.
Froese says she and Fred worked with other service horse handlers to prepare for the big trip, including sonic exercises to get the gentle creature accustomed to loud noises and potty training for when he needs to relieve himself at the airport.
According to Froese, Fred now knows how to defecate on command and pee on astroturf found in most pet relief areas.
Read the article.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Frankly, people with disabilities are not obligated to explain to you (or any other member of the curious public) specifically what that disability is, or the specific tasks the service animal is trained to performed, in order to be entitled to have their service animal with them (including on planes).
Just because a service animal is attached to its owner does not mean it is not also trained to perform specific tasks. Would you make a simliar comment to the owner of a seeing-eye dog who, in describing traveling with her dog, included a comment that her dog was attached to its owner?
As to whether this horse is a service animal (allowed wherever the owner goes) or an emotional support animal (can be excluded):
. . .
However, Froese says the trip did experience a few bumps along the way. While having a horse on a plane may be a rare occurrence, the trainer says she wishes the public would understand that taking a photo or video with your cellphone of a service animal who is classified as medical equipment without the handlers permission is extremely rude.
. . .
Though Fred also works as a therapy horse alongside Froeses two other miniature horses, Charlie and George, his owner says its important for him to be able to fly because he is a much-needed service animal.
I dont have a mental illness. I have an invisible autoimmune disease, Froese tells PEOPLE. Not all disabilities can be seen and we all deserve the same respect as the blind whose disability can be seen.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2020, 09:47 AM - Edit history (1)
I did a lot of reading at the ADA.gov site.
I strongly suspect that the owner of this miniature horse is bending the system, or outright breaking the rules, because she knows that she can......because everyone is afraid of a lawsuit.
I will also put some text in bold. SHE SAID that her pet horse is a "service animal". Guess what. People lie.
If you go to the ADA.gov site, you can read this:
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the persons disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
If you can post a link to a more current set of rules by the ADA, I'd like to check it out. I'm a landlord, so this issue is important to me. I'm pretty turned off when an applicant for one of my houses tries to pull one over on me by claiming that their pet is a service animal so they can bypass the rule that I have to have that they can't have a dog that's on the list of ones my insurance company doesn't allow.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Your other tenants, or the general public do not. As far as I know, you were not, in the role of granting accommodation a to her on this flight.
What you are entitled to as a landlord is a entirely different matter than heaping public ridicule on someone, calling them a liar and a cheat because they did not publicly disclose the details of their disability to the world, when their use of a less common service animal draws attention to her.
The public shaming has worked, though. Fred is currently trained to perform retrieval tasks to accommodate a disability that impairs her mobility. When his bones mature he will provide mobility assistance, although less than her other slightly larger second service horse since his smaller size will not permit him to bear as much weight.
eShirl
(18,466 posts)maybe you should educate yourselves about it?
As Gregory House once said, "When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U."
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Rorey
(8,445 posts)All this woman said was that her miniature horse if bonded to her and does whatever she asks it to do. I'm curious as to what specific task this guy does for her. It's kinda sounding like SHE is calling him a service animal when he's really her emotional support animal.
She disclosed that she has an autoimmune disease, so one would think she would also disclose what specific task her horse performs for her.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)you are entitled to know everything about her condition and the specific tasks her service animal performs before you respect her rights under the ADA to have her service animal with her?
That is really patronizing and ableist.
The ideal service animal would be bonded with its owner and would do whatever the owner asks of it. Having a good relationship with your service animal (and describing it as such) does not make it not a service animal.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I'll just add, I have read a lot of things online where people with pets are frustrated that they can't find a place to rent, and others will tell them that they can go to this or that site online and buy a vest, collar, whatever for their animal that says, "Service Animal".
And I'll repeat, according to the ADA.gov site, yes, you CAN ask what service an animal provides.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)That is a right belonging to the accommodating entity. A person with a disability does not lose her right to privacy, in general, merely because she has a disability. And it is inappropriate for members of the general public to ridicule her or demand she prove that she is not a liar.
But she has succumbed to the shaming of people like you and has disclosed more detail.
She has two horses as service animals. Charlie is larger and fully grown. He provides mobility, balance, and retrieval support. Fred currently performs retrieval tasks and, once his bones have sufficiently matured will also provide some mobility support, but less than Charley because of his smaller size.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)Listen, I've got a disabled daughter. Your hostility is offensive. I'm done.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)With random members of the public demanding your daughter prove she is disabled, and prove why she needs specific accommodations (and if she declines, it is perfectly fine for them to call her a liar)?
I am hostile, and frankly, as the parent of a child with a disability you should be too.
My daughter has a related disease to the one this woman has. Her disability is similarly invisible - and she had to drop out of college because of its repeated refusal to accommodate the unpredictable nature of her disease. By the time the college finally got their lawyer involved (who agreed completely with the accommodations requested three years earlier, before she was forced to take three successive medical leaves) it was too late. Their illegal and uncaring response contributed to anxiety that (in combination with her other disabilities) made it impossible for her to complete her education.
So it cuts really close to home when I see people -especially people who have absolutely no connection to granting accommodations calling a person with a disability a liar because she chooses not to open all the details of her disability open to the public so they can judge whether she is worthy enough. Even more so when it turns out that she has a companion disease to the one my daughter has.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)I once almost died from a bad asthma attack after exposure to horses. If I have to share a plane with a horse it can literally cause me serious harm. But apparently only this womans disability is worthy of protection, and not the real physical disability if those of us with animal allergies and asthma?!
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I completely agree with you. Your life shouldn't be endangered because of people like this woman.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)The punishment is a ridiculously small fine, which I'm sure does little to deter people from breaking it.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,283 posts)Was the horse strapped down for the flight?
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Rorey
(8,445 posts)It may even be a miniature unicorn.
What I'd really like to know is how people who actually need an ACTUAL service animal feel about oafs who try to pass their pets off as service animals.
HAB911
(8,811 posts)Nature Man
(869 posts)what's not to like?
I'm sure horse shitting control technology has advanced this far!
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,283 posts)llmart
(15,499 posts)I had not flown for about 6 years and I took my first flight after that six years this past November. While standing in line waiting for my luggage to show up, I watched as people came down the escalator from another flight. I counted 15 people with dogs in the 15 minutes I stood there. They were mostly small dogs. Some of the people with the small dogs looked to be twenty-somethings. I guarantee you that most of those people just didn't want to put their dogs in cargo so they got some phony excuse that they were a "service" dog.
Yes, this is getting ridiculous. And I'm saying that as someone who has trained and raised service dogs and worked with many, many people who actually needed those dogs.
Kashkakat v.2.0
(1,752 posts)humans since the dawn of time have had bonds with and strong feelings for.
So people ARE going to have concern for the well being of an animal that they would not have for your wheel chair or oxygen tank or whatever. They ARE going to perceive you as having a privilege that they don't have, and dang right they are going to be irked if it looks like some are abusing the system or putting their animal .thru undue stress or adding to their own stress level.
Seems to me people with legitimate need would not object to certification requirements and - yeah - if youre going to go public (she didn't need to) then tell us your story so that we can learn. Snippy scolding is not useful.