Most women have no idea what it's like to be a man on a daily basis either.

[Locut0s]

Last edited Thu Sep 6, 2012, 12:40 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm posting this in response to this thread: (Please note the CAPS don't mean I'm angry I'm just using them for emphasis)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021272411#post76

I have seen more than a few posts on here despite not even visiting this forum much that are on the hyper perhaps angry side of feminism. Not that people shouldn't be entitled to this point of view but I have to say it comes across more often than not as hating men. I'm sure there are many women here who DO have reason to hate men though and there are many despicable things some men do that are well worth hating.

First let me say that I AM NOT FUCKING DEFENDING THOSE WHO ARE IN ANY WAY VIOLENT OR AGGRESSIVE TOWARD WOMEN! NOR DEFENDING WHAT THE PERSON IN THAT ARTICLE DID, THAT'S JUST PLAIN SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

Second I must admit that I'm coming at this from a very strange personal angle so take this with a grain of slat. I can't help but view the world through the lens that I have. I'm 30 yrs old with a long history of serious social anxiety and depression. Too the point where I have never been able to meet a girl, never dated, kissed etc. So for me the idea of aggressively approaching a women is just beyond the pail, not only could I never do so, I would have immense difficult just saying hi. But despite this, or perhaps because of it I more so than other men, have the burning desire to meet, talk, be with women. Let's face it despite being two sides of the same coin and as much as we share in common there is also much that separate men and women. It's a biological fact. Men and women have the same biological need for an emotional and physical relationship with the other (as do gays and lesbians of course). But let's face it men and women are wired differently.

When it comes to sexuality men are much more visual creatures while women are more emotional (of course this is somewhat a stereotype but it's well backed up by scientific research as well). I AM NOT saying that men have the right to sexually harass women. Just that men see the world in a different way than women, and are forced to by their biology. I'm sorry but I really can't help it when I notice a beautiful woman walking down the street or sitting in a chair across from me. It's hard wired into our biology. I can't NOT notice it and be distracted to SOME degree any more than I can force myself to SEE the colour green as the colour red. Again I'm not saying this gives us the right to aggressively walk up to a girl and rudely hit on them. NO IT DOES NOT! BUT I think many women who are angrily look down on men as base animals also don't know what it's like to walk around with a mans' brain. We can't help but view the world through "testosterone" tinted glasses, just as women are forced to view the world through their own lens. There are aspects we as men just won't be able to FULLY understand about being a women too, because let's face it we aren't wired 100% the same way. Again I'm not asking for people to forgive those who are violent, rude, domineering and or otherwise hurtful, I AM NOT. Just that next time you see a guy trying to hit on a girl (RESPECTFULLY), or looking at a girl a few seconds too long, just remember that we see things differently, and can't help but do so. We ALL have a need for human companionship, sex (casual or otherwise), and romance, regardless of whether we are women or men. It's just expressed differently for our two sexes.

I'm guessing this is more of a burning issue for me than most due to my history of depression and anxiety that has kept me, not by choice, out of the relationship market. I would desperately like to be in a romantic relationship but am forced not to by other issues. The above is just the way I see things, perhaps my emotional issues have warped my judgment I do not know, you be the judge.

[DonRedwood]

1. zippers, for intance, are MUCH scarier!!!

[loli phabay]

3. rofl depends but i get what you mean.

[Locut0s]

7. LOL. Ok. I can say I've honestly only had that experience once. And NEVER want to again. nt ;)

[DonRedwood]

34. 2nd grade. my teacher mrs williams had to unzip me. I cried and cried and cried

and still have a little scar!!!

[loli phabay]

36. rofl i have a similar tale, also a few times when hammered and having someone else unzip lol

sure as hell dampens the ardour.

[ballabosh]

72. You learn real quick after the first time. NT

[snooper2]

129. plus when I was like 6 I had a tick on the end of my penis

Talk about shitty...

We were playing in the woods and the tick was already swollen with blood. My big sister had to take care of it for me LOL

[Codeine]

143. I was stung by a hornet on my penis when I was about two.

My earliest vivid memory is of me standing in the galley kitchen of my grandmother's cabin in the mountains crying as she applied wet baking soda to my weenie while my mother tried her hardest (with little success) not to laugh.

I still have a scar! Makes for a great story during sexytime.

[snooper2]

153. A subthread of penis stories would be classic LOL, everyone please add their own

[loli phabay]

172. okay theres the time when drunk that i leaned across the table not realising my tackle was in the dr

drawer that i closed with my thighs, ouch another tip is dont cook naked and reach across the frying pan without realising you have an erection, worse one ever was when i decided to do hair removal and couldnt be bothered shaving so decided to use the cream OMFG from chocolate starfish to the very tip of my penis was on fire with me trying to fit it all into the sink.

[loli phabay]

2. problem is people broadbrush each other, each person is different with all the mess that comes with

that. once you realise that there are asses of both sexes and they are not the majority life gets easier. Hope you figure out how to deal with your issues somehow.

[opiate69]

4. ...

[CountAllVotes]

6. it lacks punctuation

It is unreadable for me fortunately.

....

[loli phabay]

9. lol challenger forward

[digonswine]

5. You seem to see things through one-

intense set of lenses.
You are expected to look at pretty ladies-just not to leer.
You are expected to want a relationship. You are not a monster for wanting what we all want.
Perhaps you are responding to another post-I don't know.
I think most women know that we are swayed by our feelings, somewhat.
We are not so differently wired as you might think. They want what we want.
It is in getting so worked up about it that makes it appear that way--Maybe?

[Locut0s]

12. Well like I said perhaps my specific set of circumstances...

has made those "lenses" all the more intense. It's not easy being 30 and never been in a relationship.

I have however seen more than a few get worked up in the other direction.

[digonswine]

16. I suppose it would-

I don't know-maybe it helps knowing that most the people on this board have been through this stuff and have already made up their minds about certain things.
We do not represent a random sampling of Americans AT ALL!
I am reminded of a recent event-a (half) friend of mine was all in a tizzy about some local ads for the help that was available for teen and young parents. He did not(supposedly) have a problem with the programs, but was incensed by the advertisement of them. He is 40. He was not capable of understanding that a 16,17,18,19, etc. year old would not be already aware of all this stuff.
It is easy to see things through our own filters.

[hifiguy]

53. There are some very loud voices here at DU,

though not many of them, who regularly dispute some of your perfectly reasonable assertions. Some see sexual attraction or the appreciation of attractiveness as diseases that need to be "cured."

[digonswine]

58. I agree-

there are also some at the other end of the spectrum who see their "maleness" as being attacked on all sides by a feminine horde.
It is up to rational people to see the bias.
I DO think, that when I see a picture of Mrs. Obama or whomever, I should not be made to feel dirty for thinking someone attractive. I should not be made to suppress my feelings. I am, though, I admit.
I think that this is something I can live with. I am a white male. I am 38. I am represented in media and in every venue, for the most part.
I apologize to no one for being what I am, but I cannot pretend that my experience is the same as that of a black man or a woman.

[seabeyond]

103. link please. i continually hear a few of you men say ridiculous things that are not close

to any kind of truth.

so, link it or it is bullshit.

[hifiguy]

110. That you, of all people, would dare to ask

for links on this is disingenuous to the point of absurdity.

To quote President Clinton, it takes brass to criticize someone for doing what you do.

[seabeyond]

121. ya... no link. gotcha. nt

[raccoon]

125. You rock! nt

[EOTE]

122. Can I get an amen?!? nt

[4th law of robotics]

126. I've been told

that asking for links or any kind of evidence is "playing games" and that usually ends with some variation of "the conversation is over".

[hifiguy]

131. That has been my universal experience in the past.

Or if one requests links, one is told "to do one's own research." The hypocrisy is truly staggering and sickening. But at this point, I expect nothing less.

[snooper2]

133. looking vs leering, a complicated art

Leering generally has a connotation of prolonged, uninterrupted staring. Usually a "leer" it is accompanied by narrowing of the eyes (slight squinting) and a sardonic (one-sided or otherwise "fake"-looking, cynical) smile. A leer normally doesn't look away when challenged, and has no use for eye contact or acknowledgment. It is similar to "an appraising look", usually with an added element of sexual desire. An admiring look is usually more wide-eyed, and can be achieved by purposefully making eye contact; and acknowledging the eye contact with a slight nod and raised eyebrows (though not an eyebrow "waggle", which would come off as lewd), perhaps with a head tilt and hand motion toward a convenient conversation spot.
Most importantly, an admiring look should not venture below a woman's jawline.
Source(s):
studying body language of others

[tjdee]

8. I have zero tolerance for the biology defense.

Men are not wild animals. It's called self-control, so yes you *can* help how you behave--especially if you are trying to interact with someone other than yourself (and that goes for women and men). There's a difference between looking and leering, and so on. People bear the responsibility of understanding how others perceive their actions if they don't want to live in a vacuum.

Because of respect and mutual admiration, in individual relationships, men and women have managed to work things out for the most part without understanding each other completely. Somehow with the right person it all works out.

[Locut0s]

18. Where did I say defense? In fact I repeatedly said I was NOT defending...

those that act poorly. HOWEVER I AM trying to say that behind the scenes there ARE differences at work. Men and women ARE very similar but the scripts playing out behind the curtain aren't identical.

[Zalatix]

41. Of course you were not defending them. But you did NOT EXPECT THE INQUISITION, did you?

You start advocating for men's dignity and rights and it is inevitable that you are going to be accused of defending misogynists.

Inevitable.

[yawnmaster]

43. nobody expects the.... eom

[seabeyond]

64. from the time a child communicates boys learn to look and girls learn to pose.

i am opposed to the whole biology so beyond what you say.

we allow society to condition us in so many ways, then shrug, without reflection, and accept the caricature of who society tells us we are as a gender.

[hifiguy]

68. Yeah, and fundys are "opposed" to Darwin.

That doesn't make the theory of evolution any less true. Consider the company you are keeping. Your assertion - it is hardly an argument - is indistinguishable in form, content and accuracy from those fundys who "don't believe" in evolution.

[seabeyond]

74. also doesnt make cultlike evo psych story telling true, either. Consider the company you are keeping

[hifiguy]

84. I call bull.

All I have ever said is that a hypothesis - any hypothesis - should be subject to experiment through the scientific method. Try not to make your misrepresentations so Romney-like in their obvious transparency.

[4th law of robotics]

118. Do you believe any biological differences exist between males/females

beyond the obvious ones?

Or are all differences the result of in utero conditioning by the patriarchy?

/it would have to begin early since boys and girls are different when it comes to making noises, exploring, walking, etc that all begin well before children have the language skills to be influenced by society.

[snooper2]

137. LOL, my daughter was posing with paint all over her face a couple days ago

Thought it was cute, - I repeat--- use the brush- use the brush - use the brush..

Look at her two minutes later and she thinks it's finger paint


You know what the biggest difference between the knowing what gender you are? When my buddies boys come over who are 4 & 5 and go pee pee standing up and my daughter decides she can pull the same trick

Luckily she forgot about it the next day

[seabeyond]

138. my boys still pose for a camera.... that is really not what i am talking about though

right?

and love the story about your daughter. so cute.....

i loved your definition of leer....

[sabrina 1]

150. Lol, and I love the biology! Viva La Difference!

[Cleita]

10. I'll admit you guys have your issues.

You are often treated more harshly on the job than women are. You have more pressure on you to succeed. You are the first to be sent to die in a war, although that is becoming more equal these days. There are many other social constructs that treat men harder than women. You have valid points about this.

[Zalatix]

35. All of this is why I want to see the Patriarchal system destroyed, and no *-archal system put in its

place.

Patriarchal systems subjugate everyone as tools to support the men at the top.

IMO men are more readily disposed of as pawns in war, but what woman wants the benefits of being the survivors of this when it means being a rich man's chattel property?

I wouldn't want a matriarchal system, either - all more of the same. It most likely will be led by Type-A people like Meg Whitman. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

[Cleita]

39. I don't either want a matriarchal system.

I want to see us as equal partners. Sure there might be some division of labor according to our strengths, but it shouldn't be written in stone that this is men's work and this is women's work. Also, we should get equal pay. Having to be dependent on a man's wages for a woman only dumps her back into the patriarchal model.

[rrneck]

102. We leverage our characteristics

and associations to secure and retain resources. Patriarchy and matriarchy are the result of wealth. When resources are equitably distributed, the gender of the powers that be becomes much less of an issue.

[Aerows]

13. I'm still contemplating

"fly away" curls of defiance, and what it means to me as a woman

[MadrasT]

14. I really don't think we are "wired differently" by gender.

I think we have different experiences due to gender, but I don't buy that there is a huge internal difference.

I am sorry you are having a tough time. Life is very hard for me too sometimes.

[loli phabay]

15. im of the opinion that there are differences both in biology and mentally

they may not be great differences but i dont think its all nurture and no nature,

[MadrasT]

22. There is nature and nurture both, but I don't think that is related to biological gender.

It is cool if you disagree, just saying what I think.

[loli phabay]

24. no probs with your opinion after all its just as valid as mine even if we disagree. :)

[AngryAmish]

104. There we must disagree

Women tend to have much lower testosterone then men. Testosterone definitely changes behavior, thoughts et al in most people. Men with low testosterone tend to be less interested in sex and more of a blah attitude. Women who takes testosterone (anabolic steroids)tend to have heighten sex drive and hypomanic (elevated) mood. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10601831

Testosterone is a big behavior changer in both men and women. That is definitely related to biological gender.


(yes, all women have some testosterone but tend to have much less then men)

[seabeyond]

127. all women have much lower testosterone. why do so many want, like, have sex?

lots of women dont get the amount of sex they want from their guy. you say the reason is he has low testosterone. yet, here she has low and has high libido. companies cannot sell a vibrator for the life of them. women dont step into the shower and take care of themselves.

women are getting off all over the place, yet you are really saying, and society as a whole, that it doesnt count, cause womens sexuality does not count. it is all about the man.

this makes no sense.

i didnt see heighten sex drive in that study and read a couple times. did i overlook?

[AngryAmish]

132. Nobody ever said that libido is solely driven by testosterone

and I didn't really look up or read that study so well myself. So I could be full of beans...But

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/testosterone-therapy/AN01390

I don't think that there is much argument that testosterone definitely changes thoughts and behaviors. Heck, it causes a host of physiological changes also.

My point: various hormone levels (ie testosterone) cause differences in our bodies and differences in our thoughts. Women and men have different levels of various hormones. Thus we may conclude that some of the differences in thoughts and behaviors between women and men can roots in our biology.

[seabeyond]

134. i hear a lot of myth presented as fact when there is no fact to substantiate the myth.

then when going to real life we see the nontruths and ignore reality.

what woman, in her own self worth, wants to own she is not a sexual creature, that her sexuality is insignificantly there, especially if she is continually thru out life enjoying orgasms? do you think at some point a woman is going to be offended only hearing about how awe inspiring the male sexuality is and hers is really insignificant? maybe at some point she might say, .... hey, i like sex too, and regularly get what i want.

this fable we are creating for men today, and demanding of women is no more than forever in history where women were told they were not a sexual person, or they were abnormal and assigned the role of being bought and sold cause the just liked sex so much, different from the "normal" women.

when do women get to be awe inspired by their own sexuality, owning it, without it having a damn thing to do with a man.

[AngryAmish]

139. My friend, you have gone from point A to point WHTRBY

and I for sure cannot follow you.

[seabeyond]

140. ok. fair enough. i am not gonna try to clarify....

but, that is cool.

[sabrina 1]

151. Who said women are not sexual creatures?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but on the one hand, I see huge objections to women choosing to be prostitutes and/or work in the Porn industry, while now I'm seeing a claim that they were never viewed as sexual creatures.

Seems to me considering the huge business the Porn Industry is, that is exactly how they are viewed, something I thought you objected to. That they ARE viewed as sexual creatures. Seems like a big contradiction to me.

[seabeyond]

160. "Men with low testosterone tend to be less interested in sex and more of a blah attitude."

since men with low testosterone still have higher testosterone than women and testosterone is all about the sex drive per the men, then what does that say about womens sex drive? it has to be beyond blah.

yet, we have women getting off all over the place, all the time, BUT they have a much lower testosterone. how can that be? already does not make sense, right? his logic fails that it is about testosterone. and to suggest women have such a damn low sex drive is an insult to all of us women. why would we stand around allowing ourselves to be labeled as having such a very low low sex drive.

and do you think the working in porn, or being a prostitute is about being horney? really? you buy into that?

that sounds like what men convince themselves using these women. hey, she just really really wanted to have sex, so she charged me for it.

so, average women have such low sex drives because they do not have the testosterone, as they regularly have sex cause they want it (or orgasm) but porn actress paid to fake it are "sexual creatures".

an amazing world some live in.

[4th law of robotics]

166. That would make sense if you assumed

men and women's sexuality was exactly the same and our brains responded exactly the same to hormone levels.

Now I know they're just agents of the patriarchy but all those science-dudes are pretty convinced the testosterone injections can alter behavior in men and women.

/here I found a non-dude scientist who agrees: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/testosterone-therapy/AN01390

[One_Life_To_Give]

170. Why is Testosterone prescribed as a remedy for low libido?

I suspect that Dr's Berman and Berman would disagree with you on the importance of women's sexual satisfaction. http://www.drlauraberman.com/homepage http://www.bermansexualhealth.com/
Although as I recall on DU2 there were arguments that the whole Female Sexual Dis-function (FSD) was a racket created by the pharmaceutical industry.

And don't forget Chemical Castration where they prescribe, anti-androgens aka testosterone blockers.

Read today there are 21,000 genes and over 2million gene switches. And what causes a cell to become a neuron or a pancreatic cell to produce insulin may be the result of several switches.

And the one that has perhaps the biggest difference is the Androgen Insensative Male. We know what that does they are born like Semina Caster appearing completely female, with testes where a female would have ovaries. And in general they live out their lives as female identifying while their DNA shows them to be XY.

[4th law of robotics]

178. Because people are socially conditioned by the Patriarchy

to respond to hormone injections.

The fact that differences can be observed in response to hormones beginning when the fetus is still a handful of cells just shows how all powerful and pervasive the Patriarchy is.

[Locut0s]

17. Depends on what you mean by wired. Our brains look the same but different hormones are at work...

Lower a mans blood level of testosterone to that of an average women and increase his estrogen levels accordingly and you will see some pretty profound behavioural and emotional changes. The same with a woman.

[MadrasT]

20. Yes but hormone levels vary wildly

from woman to woman and from man to man so I find blanket generalizations about that to be not helpful.

[Locut0s]

52. They vary wildly within a set range...

Those ranges are different for a man and a women.

[Major Nikon]

60. Normal levels of testosterone in women run between 10 ng/dl to 70 ng/dl

Pregnant women may have levels 4 times the normal level of around 40 ng/dl, but obviously this isn't a typical condition.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/263350-normal-testosterone-levels-in-women/

Normal levels of testosterone in men fall between 250ng/dl and 850 ng/dl.
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html

So even if you take conditions that would be considered extreme for a woman, you still don't even get into the normal levels for men.

[hifiguy]

50. I have absolutely no doubt we are wired differently.

I speak from the experience of an Asperger's lifetime. If I am wired differently from 99% of other males, and I am, I have no difficulty whatsoever in getting my head around the notion that men and women have some foundational differences.

[Honeycombe8]

93. No, there's plenty of evidence that biology separates the genders. Not just in humans.

Testosterone and estrogen each have a strong and remarkable effect on the body and brain. Also, women having the plumbing to give birth, most (but not all) are more prone to be nurterers, just as we see in the primates.

There's plenty of evidence and studies and such out there, if you look for it. Even their brains operate differently.

It's been shown that men are better with spatial ability, women are better verbally. Those things come from the different areas of the brain in men vs. women. The right side of men's brains are more active/stronger than the left, but the opposite is true with women. Language ability comes from teh left side of the brain; I hate to admit it, but logic comes from the right side of the brain.

Little girls are faster to speak and mature than little boys...biology.

You can see these changes occur in people who undergo sex change operations and take hormones of the opposite sex. Not all of the traits of the opposite sex,maybe. But some. Chastity Bono has said that she understands more why men act the way they do, now that she takes testosterone.

Watch some documentaries on apes and chimpazees...even dogs. I see the male-female differences in my dogs.

Yes, Virginia. There is a biological difference between the genders that affects how they think and behave.

[4th law of robotics]

116. Scientists have found that by giving rats

a dose of male or female hormones as a fetus they can effect changes in their behavior later in life (long after the hormones have dissipated and they are producing within the normal levels for their gender).

That would suggest that hormone differences in utero are responsible for permanent differences in brain structure leading to permanent changes in behavior. Not so?

[riderinthestorm]

19. Agreed Locut

Thanks for posting a brave thing.

I think the old saw "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" could apply.

My 15 year old daughter is dating a young 16 year old boy. Poor thing gets an erection at least once during his visits to our house. I make a point of NOT seeing as he plunges his hands into his pockets to "rearrange". I try not to giggle but I know its excruciatingly embarrassing for him!

I can't "know" his world. I can read about it. I can try to understand it from my husband. But honestly, men all have their own fears, problems and issues.

Thanks for sharing I hope you are getting help for your depression and anxiety. Someday you'll find the perfect woman for you. If you haven't been following Jen and Tobin's story in the lounge, I encourage you to saunter that way. Tobin was another guy who struggled for decades in the relationship area but he persevered. Good luck.

[seabeyond]

66. yet... you are clueless how often your daughter is reacting, cause there is not the same evidence.

because we can see a boy getting an erection does not mean he is any more sexual than what your daughter is experiencing, you are just clueless with no visual clues.

[riderinthestorm]

82. Agreed.

Although I know personally my daughter is on BC and is sexually active, so there's that.

I was just commenting on the OP, and the differences for men v women, sexual tensions, demonstrable displays etc. and how they play out for the sexes.

The OP was painfully shy about expressing his desires, wants and hopes. My post was in sympathy to his plight. Females (sexually at least) can hide their sexual responses publicly.

My post was more a general observation than any kind of comment specifically.

[dawg]

112. You are freaking me out rider!!!

Did my future MIL notice every time I had a boner back when I was dating my ex???? OMFG I hope not. I may not sleep for a week because of this!!!

[digonswine]

21. Are you painfully introverted?

This is not asked to mock, for sure.

[Locut0s]

27. Not exactly, though not too far off.....

Depends on the subject at hand. My main issue is social anxiety and depression. People who are truly painfully introverted tend to be quiet and reserved in all situations. Whereas I am only that way in some situations. I HATE giving presentations and will walk a thousand miles out of the way to not stand up infront of a crowd to do so. I am horrible in intimate settings and have avoided all such instances in my life. But if it's a setting of like minded peers and we are talking about a subject I'm interested in, and there are no expectations on my part, no pressure, I'm probably the loudest voice in the room.

[LeftyMom]

23. This woman won't have any idea until you figure out how paragraphs work.

I suppose I could try to power through that wall of text, but in my experience WOT + ALL CAPS! = not worth my time

[loli phabay]

25. kinda mean, its definetly worth reading even if it is hard for you.

[LeftyMom]

30. Insisting that adults make the effort to write correctly isn't mean. It's a fairly low standard.

My school covered paragraphs in the third grade. I refuse to read anybody who can't or won't make the effort to meet third grade standards.

[loli phabay]

62. not knowing the posters educational level or if he has problems writing makes your post lack class

i feel sorry for you if you think that only people with an acceptable standard of education according to you are worthwhile.

[LeftyMom]

76. Discussion forums are a text based medium. People who have problems communicating in text have other

outlets.

I can't draw. You don't see me hanging out in art galleries insisting that people attempt to decode meaning from my misshapen stick figures. I certainly wouldn't stamp my foot and declare anybody who refuses to do so, on the perfectly reasonable grounds that I draw like a toddler using their off hand, is unreasonable and mean.

[loli phabay]

78. as i said it shows a lack of class, but carry on

[4th law of robotics]

105. Learning disabilities and trouble writing/conveying messages

predominately hit men.

I'm not saying the OP has any of those. But that is one issue that is primarily a male concern.

Part of your privilege as a woman is your much lower risk of suffering from diagnosed communication disorders.

[LanternWaste]

117. Or it could simply be bad grammar...

Or it could simply be bad grammar...

But I suppose we default to whatever rationalize we can find to better validate our position.

[4th law of robotics]

120. Could be

I was just pointing out one issue that males more than females have to deal with and overcome.

/there are few disabilities that harm you in this society as much as an inability to communicate effectively.

//"But I suppose we default to whatever rationalize we can find to better validate our position." Is rationalize the word you wanted to use there?

[Locut0s]

32. If you haven't read through a paragraph of that length before than I can only surmise...

If you haven't read thought a paragraph of that length before than I can only surmise that you have done very little reading in your life indeed. I'll give you the caps, that's a bit annoying. But then nothing is forcing you to read though it if you don't want too. How does that saying go? If you don't have anything nice to say...

[LeftyMom]

38. You don't handle constructive criticism from women well, either.

I'm already noticing a pattern: you don't make an effort to be understood, then you blame women for not understanding you.

[Locut0s]

46. Constructive criticism is generally not given in a rude or mean tone. nt

[yawnmaster]

48. LeftyMom, how do you get that he can't handle constructive criticism from women? eom

[Zalatix]

91. Because she speaks for all of womankind? Who knows...

[Care Acutely]

42. What the heck is a read thought?

[Locut0s]

44. It's like a read through only you read the other persons mind ;)

[Care Acutely]

65. Sweet! I never get in on the cool stuff.

Seriously, I thought I was missing something. I'm good sometimes at reading things 5 or 6 times and not getting it.

[auntAgonist]

83. It's simply a typo. n/t

[Care Acutely]

94. Yup, already handled. Thanks.

[Curmudgeoness]

26. I haven't been hit on for so long (comes with becoming an old fart)

that I forget how bad it can get. But what you are talking about is not the same as what was being complained about in the referenced post. There really isn't anything wrong with a man looking a little too long at a good looking woman. There is nothing wrong with a man approaching a woman to say hello in a polite manner and see if she is interested in carrying on a conversation. But there is a problem with a man who tries to intimidate a woman into giving him attention when she is clearly not interested. The word here is "intimidation". No one, man or woman, would like it.

I am sorry you are too afraid to talk to women, and I hope that you are able to work through this. Just remember, there are a lot of women out there who feel the same way you do. I do not think that the women who complain online about their experiences with men "hate" them....but they do hate the way they are sometimes treated. If you treat a woman with respect, you will never be sorry.

[upaloopa]

28. I was also full of anxiety and fear of rejection but some very kind women and girls understood

that makes all the difference. Some women have the same problems and when two people with anxiety take the courage to trust it is beautiful.

[loli phabay]

33. thats what the internet was made for, just use it as a tool to meet like minded members of the oppos

sex and see what happens. Not the best approach but it seems to work for the majority of the planet nowadays.

[WinkyDink]

29. My response is from "The Gift of Fear": "Men fear being humiliated; women fear being murdered."

Yes, it is that stark a difference.

[Fumesucker]

49. Yet men are more likely to be the victim of violent crime other than rape..

That of course means that men are more likely to be murdered than women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_crime#In_the_United_States

Men are also far more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime, with the exception of rape.

[WinkyDink]

57. From other men. Your serve.

[Fumesucker]

59. Logically though men should fear murder more than women..

Since they are more often the victim of murder.

It's rather like people who are afraid of flying yet have no problem driving to the airport, the drive is a far more dangerous trip in terms of likelihood of death.

[KitSileya]

111. I hope, based on my other post, that you stop equating this with women's fear of being raped.

To say that men should fear murder more than women, does not say that men should fear murder more than women should fear rape, and that is the impression I get that you want us to believe. It is intellectually dishonest if that is the case.

[KitSileya]

109. That tells me absolutely nothing of the risks to men and women.

Yes, men are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than women, but how many are victims of violent crimes vs how many are raped? According to your link, there were 14,748 murders in the US in 2010, and that includes women. The violent crime rate was 403.6 per 100,000 population in 2010.

In contrast, nearly 90,000 reported being raped in the US in 2008. Women in the US has a 15%-20% lifetime risk of being raped, and that doesn't include women being raped multiple times. A Department of Justice research report claims that "only" 1 of 36 college women experience completed rape in an academic year!(https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf)

I would say that women have a much better case for letting the risk of rape shape their lives and reactions towards men than men have the risk of being murdered! In addition, men can have reasonable expectations of having safe places where the chance of being murdered is very low (at home, for example, if they live in a good neighborhood) while women? Most are raped by men they know.

[fun n serious]

31. You just need to get laid a few times. n/t

[Locut0s]

40. I'm curious how other women on here would view this opinion...

Cause honestly this is probably the most often piece of advice I've received from other men and also, I think, highlights the differences I am mentioning between men and women.

Are there women on here who would agree with this?

[loli phabay]

51. in a way i agree with the post, you need to get out there and work through the issue, mayby not laid

its easy to say it but when you have a fear or phobia youhave to work to get over it and your awkwardness with women is something you need to work on if thats what you want.

[dawg]

114. Well, I'm a man but I think it's terrible advice.

Putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

What you need to do is to find a way to meet women, whether through activities or even ... gulp ... a dating site, and get to the point where you are comfortable enough to ask them out.

I think asking a woman for a date would be a cathartic thing for you, even if she says no.

Getting used to "no" has traditionally been the man's burden. It's terrible. But it's no worse than the non-ringing phone, which has traditionally been the woman's burden.

[redqueen]

130. You are so smart. :)

I hate the idea of burdens. I never got asked out so I started doing the asking. Yeah rejection sucks but no guts no glory right?

[seabeyond]

136. dawg is awesome, and i think and encourage boys generation to get rid of the whole

male obligation to ask out thing.

as a matter of fact.... this year son started handing out phone number to girls he was chatting with telling them, you want to hang out, give me a call. he was tired of being the one asking.

[redqueen]

141. When I was single I preferred to get their number rather than give mine.

I don't like waiting, or last minute calls.

[seabeyond]

144. it worked well. and the girls didnt have an issue with it. i imagine it will be a life lesson for

oldest, anyway.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

37. I really don't follow the gender angle of the post

It just sounds like another spectacular illustration why anyone with absolutely ANY other alternative, including walking, avoids public transit at all cost. I had some unhinged shithead scream at me for forty-five minutes on the Long Island Railroad earlier this year, including an invitation to perform a sex act on him... Now my suggestions on how public anti-social behavior should be handled tend to be removed by jury, but this missive applies to potentially anyone using public transit.

[hifiguy]

45. This dx'd Aspie profoundly thanks you.

I decided more than thirty years ago - when I was in my early 20s - that any attempt at a relationship would be a disaster for me. Long before I was dx'd I realized that I could not read people at all, especially people of the opposite sex. The depression associated with loneliness flared up from time to time until I got old enough to simply not be interested anymore. I still look, too. But I have less than no desire to ever become involved in that labyrinthine game. Life is too damned short to play "guess what's on my mind." I had to put up with that bullshit in law school, where at least I was learning something from the experience.I don't regret walking away from it all nearly 35 years ago.

[Locut0s]

47. I'm curious. Why was this an issue in law school specifically? nt.

[hifiguy]

56. In law school the Socratic method is used.

The prof does not lecture, s/he asks questions. You have to learn how to guess what's on the professor's mind. At least the feedback, whether you're right or not, is immediate and verbal. If you mess up, you know right away and why.

[nanabugg]

54. Yes we do. My husband tells me everyday. nt

[slampoet]

55. Every person I've known who has done F-to-M Drag comments on how lonely it is.

[treestar]

61. Men don't have to be just visual

They are just told that. It limits your life. Don't let them tell you to limit your life.

Men are generally asexual, they require so much of women, we have to alter our appearance, have a great personality, do so much to attract you guys, that it's a lie that you want sex so much! You are the ones who have to be catered to!

We aren't good enough if too fat, too old, not visually perfect, come on, you have zero libido unless we excite it with alterations to our bodies! You have no sex drive at all, unless WE are perfect.

[flamingdem]

75. I learned how true that is, and how cultural that is

when I spent time in Latin America with men who aren't focused on perfection. Wide hips, extra tummy etc. are fine with many of them, and a blah personality on a perfect body is not sought after, personality seems paramount. Just read how those norms are changing as they get more media from here but it's still more tolerant and in that sense more human.

[Locut0s]

86. That doesn't prove men aren't more visual it just proves that we have an unhealthy ideal...

in the west. I fully agree that the ideal image of a woman that we hold in the west is deeply flawed and unhealthy. It leads to image issues, anorexia and emotional problems in far too many women. But that doesn't mean that men in Latin America don't have their own, more healthy in this case, ideal they look for. Or that they aren't more visual. Besides so long as we are holding Latin America up as a standard it's precisely in many of these countries that men are allowed to pinch women's behinds, do cat calls and physically touch women they wish to "come on to". A hell of a lot of people here would consider that sexual harassment and I think I agree in many cases.

[loli phabay]

89. have you actually ever met a guy if you think we need everything to be perfect, for most a pulse is

all that is required fro a hookup. No idea where you think we need a women to be perfect. Also the majority of men in my experience do want sex a lot, guys on the whole tend to be very willing to indulge if given the chance, hell guys will masterbate just out of boredom or if theres a hot chick on dancing with the stars.

[treestar]

99. "if there's a hot chick on dancing with the stars"

but not if there's a fat chick in front of them! Where do I get this idea? From life. This is my new favorite theory.

Anyway why do women wear make up and men don't have to? Why do women have to be young and thin and well dressed and have a great personality and men don't have to?

Men have a very very delicate libido. Turn 50 weigh over 10 pounds more than you should, and they can't stand you. Etc. Etc. They are all fighting for a small pool of women and they prefer that! Having a contest amongst each other is more important than any sex.

Also it is said they don't want commitment but would rather spread their seed as they say. So then what happens. They have to make each new conquest, and that results in far less sex than a committed guy would get. They prefer the hunt. Actual sex is just the prize.

[4th law of robotics]

147. Were are you getting this "have to" stuff from?

To be attractive yes you have to fit certain criteria.

Quick: name a fat, short, bald male celebrity that has been labeled one of Americas sexiest men.

Danny Devito is a real looker ain't he? I bet he get's all the chicks since appearances don't matter. Why someone who looked like him but had no money would do swell in the dating scene.

Turn 50 weigh over 10 pounds more than you should, and they can't stand you.

Go to a bar. See which men are successful at hitting on women. Is it the young fit ones, or the old fat ones? The only criteria where this differs perhaps is that money is a bit of an equalizer for men but less so for women (although subject to exceptions of course).

I don't think you know nearly as much about men as you thin you do.

[treestar]

154. Danny DeVito can get a girl

He has one.

And any man who looks like him can too, and without all his fame and money.

But a short fat woman over 50 isn't going anywhere.

Granted men can have better luck if they are good looking, but it's not excluding of other men. The other men's complaint is that they don't get the hot young chicks as easily, but that's still what they say the want. Why these supposedly earn money or try to gain power and all that. I'm getting these ideas from men themselves.

[4th law of robotics]

155. " Danny DeVito can get a girl"

Many hideous women can (get a guy) as well. What's your point?

And any man who looks like him can too, and without all his fame and money.

But a short fat woman over 50 isn't going anywhere.

That is not a factual statement.

Granted men can have better luck if they are good looking, but it's not excluding of other men. The other men's complaint is that they don't get the hot young chicks as easily, but that's still what they say the want. Why these supposedly earn money or try to gain power and all that. I'm getting these ideas from men themselves.

Unattractive women can get guys as well. They just won't be competing for the hot young guys. They'll be competing for the less attractive ones.

Exactly the same as men.

This notion that men are asexual and require a tremendous amount of perfection and beauty to be aroused is one of the more bizarre things I've seen posted on here.

[treestar]

173. Men have the advantage though

At least, they've often announced that to me.

They can be my age of 53 and expect a say 30 year old woman to want them.

Yet at my age I do not think 30 year old men should settle for me.

We women have been forever instructed that men get that advantage.

[loli phabay]

174. i guess youve never heard of cougars before, lets be honest if a female wants sex then its not hard

to get offers from guys no matter how you look, unless you are scarey i suppose, now if you want a relationship then you may have to make an effort but guys especially if its a no future, no one will know about it sexual encounter will go fot it more often than not. In my world i see older womenenjoying lots of sex with much younge guys as they provide something sexually that is harder to come by.

[4th law of robotics]

177. You seem to be basing your understanding of men

off what you've heard a handful say and women's magazines articles (written by women) about men.

Yet at my age I do not think 30 year old men should settle for me.

Ever heard of a cougar?

Besides it balances out. Women are more desirable when they're young but lose it as they get older. Men are less desirable when they're young but do better later on. You don't see women clambering over each other to get the 18 year old guys who are awkward and still have acne.

So your great weakness is that your peak years are different than ours in some ways? Boo hoo. I don't see much sympathy for the awkard, zit covered and voice cracking male teens who strike out constantly.

[4th law of robotics]

145. "Men are generally asexual"

Ha . . what?

they require so much of women, we have to alter our appearance, have a great personality, do so much to attract you guys, that it's a lie that you want sex so much! You are the ones who have to be catered to!

Er, not really. If you meet a guy who won't have sex with you because of the shoes you're wearing there's a good chance he won't have sex with you period.

Most of women's fashion is to show off to other women. Next time you're on a date cover your face and ask your partner to describe what makeup you're wearing. I'm guessing it'll be something like "uh . . . pretty makeup?".

We really don't care about that stuff as much as women's magazines like to pretend (to sell ad space of course).

[hifiguy]

149. Years ago Angie Dickinson, on the Carson show,

said, and I quote verbatim, "I dress for other women. I undress for men." Given that she was one of the most gorgeous actresses of her Hollywood generation, I take that as a fairly definitive statement.

[4th law of robotics]

156. She knows what's she's talking about

Lingerie for the most part is to make a woman feel sexy. Myself (and most guys I know) would be just as content with nothing (and saving the money for something else).

This phenomenon describes I think about 90% of women's fashion. Make the woman feel pretty by showing up other women so she feels confident enough to take all that nonsense off. Guy's really don't care.

[treestar]

152. You do care about youth, slimness, beauty

Women may like make-up but that's from years of conditioning and thinking they look better with it. Men don't have to look better than nature allowed. And older women or overweight women don't get asked out - therefore, men would rather not have sex at all than have sex with them. Yet men aren't subjected to that restriction.

And men are so visual, that's the claim. So they are turned off by all these visual problems/flaws. Yet women do not have this problem.

[4th law of robotics]

157. As do women

to say that we care about appearances ergo we are asexual is ridiculous.

Women may like make-up but that's from years of conditioning and thinking they look better with it.

Because other women have told them they don't look pretty without it. It isn't men's magazines pushing the stuff.

Men don't have to look better than nature allowed.

I guess that's why the most attractive men are always the ones who are covered in a complete beard, have skin imperfections, clearly eat whatever they want and exercise whenever they want and smell of sweat.

And older women or overweight women don't get asked out - therefore, men would rather not have sex at all than have sex with them. Yet men aren't subjected to that restriction.

That's what you're going on? A) it's not true and B) you're coming at this from a privileged point of view. If "not being asked out" after a certain point makes you feel bad what do you suppose it means to men who are never asked out no matter how they look? Do you really think guys get to sit at the bar and let women come up to them, begging for the opportunity to buy them a drink on the slim chance of getting sex?

You may be losing your ability to do that, but we never had it. So yeah, not feeling to bad for you.

And men are so visual, that's the claim. So they are turned off by all these visual problems/flaws. Yet women do not have this problem.

Which is why physically unattractive men do so well.

[treestar]

171. Well traditionally the men get to do the asking out

"throwing yourself" at him is what we get if WE try to make the choices.

Physically unattractive men do not do well with thin hot young chicks, and they do seem to resent that.

If sex was their real goal, they'd be willing to woo older or uglier or fatter women.

[4th law of robotics]

176. Men "get" to do the asking out

men get the privilege of risking public humiliation over and over again (as well as wasting money and time).

Yeah, women have it so rough in that department.

Physically unattractive men do not do well with thin hot young chicks, and they do seem to resent that.

And physically unattractive women do not do well with muscular young guys, and they do seem to resent that. What's your point?

If sex was their real goal, they'd be willing to woo older or uglier or fatter women.

If sex was a woman's goal all she'd have to do is proposition random guys in the street. Even unattractive women would have success in short order. Since women don't generally do this we can assume no woman wants sex.

[seabeyond]

63. men are not more visual, it is not backed up by science. they did a questionnaire and made it fact

since they have the ability to hook up the brain they have found that not only are men not more visual, but women tend to be more fluid, getting turned on by male on male, woman on woman, man or woman. whereas a man basically only gets turned on by sexual preference.

so it is not about biology.

and i would suggest that it is also conditioning that that men only allow themselves to be turned on by sexual preference because of societal conditioning.

women are more fluid in their sexuality which i believe is caused because society allows women to be.

it is bullshit, and more conditioning, i believe that we are told we are more "emotional" also. god, how many men do i hear as dependent emotionally on a woman, as they claim women are, yet as a society we all pretend otherwise, because again, the conditioning of what a man is suppose to be. and what a woman is allowed to be.

[opiate69]

67. "They" who?

[hifiguy]

69. You do know better than to expect an actual answer,

don't you?

[opiate69]

70. yeah. all these DNC speeches have me in a particularly hopeful mood tonight though!

[4th law of robotics]

107. In my experience asking for clarification

gets you labeled a sexist and ends the conversation.

[seabeyond]

71. since we are talking "scientific fact", and i am referring to study hooking up brain, THEY

would be scientists, but then, i would think that was obvious.

more games?

New brain research challenges the myth that men are more visual than women.

It is considered an almost forgone conclusion across research disciplines, among pop psychologists of all stripes, and in the general population that men are more “visual” than women when it comes to the way they get turned on. Men, we’re told, are visually aroused, whereas women just need a good sense of humor, and possibly a strong jaw, and they're on board.

This misguided, but pervasive belief can be linked to a host of other gender stereotypes which are further complicated by sexual politics and differences in social power. So arguments which should be challenged, such as the “fact” that men leer more than women do, that they objectify women’s bodies more than women do men’s bodies, and that they just can’t stop watching porn, are explained as somehow being related to a mix of genetics, patriarchy, and simple mindedness.

Challenging these ideas can be a monumental task. Researcher bias being what it is, science rarely offers support for these "counter-intuitive" ideas. What's worse, when research does start to complicate matters, the media, and even smart bloggers who should know better, distort the findings beyond recognition.

Nonetheless, a recent study published in the journal Brain Research is offering the first preliminary but important evidence to dispel the age old myth that visual imagery is more important to men than it is to women. And it's worth considering without hyperbole.

http://sexuality.about.com/b/2006/06/19/new-brain-research-challenges-the-myth-that-men-are-more-visual-than-women.htm



another study in australia, and you can google for it, confirms.

[opiate69]

77. No games.. just wanted to see a source..

although, like I suspected, you took a highly flawed study, and incorporated it into your world-view as immutable fact.

[seabeyond]

80. ah, but basing that men are more visual froma study in the 80's handing out a questionairre

Last edited Wed Sep 5, 2012, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)

with no controls and getting the expected answer thru societal conditioning from both gender to proclaim men are more visual is not highly flawed? right.

[Upton]

79. All that says is women like porn too..

which come to think of it, is sort of counter productive to you and your ban happy buds crusade to do something about it..

[loli phabay]

90. hey seabeyond hope you are well, its not the brain that should be hooked up to the machine

i saw some study referenced one time that did the test of showing even animals getting it on and there was reactions from the guys nether regions. I dont know about the average guy but i know i think of sex multiple times daily and at the oddest times.

[seabeyond]

92. i am gonna really blow your.... mind on this but ya,

us women do, too.

another study. men think sex average 17 times a day. women 12 times a day.

but men think about food 19 times a day. women 15.

seems like women think about their wants as a whole, less than men, BUT... both think about it and it is not all that different and certainly not 7 sec a day for a man, like they claim, which would be another myth.

why would that be, that we tell ourselves all these non truth and demand they are a reality.

and, of course....

[loli phabay]

95. lol well as you know im not the average person but i think 17 is kinda low for me

id have to be in a deep coma for it to be that low, i see too many attractive people during the day not to think about it. lol

[4th law of robotics]

108. That study would by definition be self-reported

would it not?

So likely you're measuring what the subjects thought they were supposed to say.

[4th law of robotics]

106. You contradict yourself

since they have the ability to hook up the brain they have found that not only are men not more visual, but women tend to be more fluid, getting turned on by male on male, woman on woman, man or woman. whereas a man basically only gets turned on by sexual preference.

so it is not about biology.

Men and women's brains respond differently at a bio-chemical level to instances of sex (or pictures of sexy people, whatever).

And yet there are no biological differences between the genders.

So what, women are faking those brain scans to somehow appease the patriarchy?

[redqueen]

128. Is this the study?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all%3Fsrc%3Dtp&smid=fb-share

[flamingdem]

73. I did always wonder what it would be like to have to worry about

appendages between my legs

[loli phabay]

97. rofl i took your comment in a different way, not sure if you meant that if so well played

[jp11]

81. I think you would have had a better point if you hadn't

used or tried to use the differences between our hormones/brain chemistry/etc as seemingly the only way of explaining or excusing the kind of behavior that thread talked about the extremes of.

Rather a better way of putting it, at least to me, would have been yes there are distinct differences between men and women as well as our 'wiring' but on top of that you have all of the societal and cultural expectations ie gender roles. While so many like to say they are not important, outdated, don't exists, etc the truth is they matter and still affect how we interact with eachother and how we even pressure eachother to fit those roles. Simply put our parents and grandparents as well as all our history, literature, media, etc all play a role in reinforcing historic roles men and women should play. None of them on their own are likely to be the single thing that swipes the control or free thought from a person to adhere to some idea of who they should be but they all work together as well as the daily experiences we all have as individuals as who we are based on how we are treated.

Whenever we as individuals don't challenge or work to effect those around us to challenge those roles we are allowing them to go unchallenged and in some ways reinforced. Men don't need to be the sex that approaches a woman they are interested just as women don't need to wait for a guy to show he's interested if she is.

Of course you are right neither women nor men can truly know what it is like to see life from the other side absent reforming their personality in a perfect version of the opposite sex and even then perhaps not having had x time as the prior sex as personal history/memories.

[Locut0s]

88. Thank you for the intelligent and very nicely worded reply...

I agree that cultural gender roles play a large part in this. I was mistaken in sounding like I meant that biology was the be all and end all. I don't think it is.

[blue neen]

85. It can't be all about the "wiring".

For instance, what happens when the glasses are no longer tinted "testosterone" or "estrogen", but rather a deep shade of "presbyopia"?

If it is all a matter of hormone-based behavior, then why do men and women not assume completely different personalities once they reach their older years?

[Locut0s]

87. Oh by no means do I think it's all biological, but I do think it plays a large role...

As for why men and women don't behave completely differently as they age it's partly cause despite a lowering in the amount of sexual hormones in their bodies they still have a "relatively" large amount compared to zero. And I never claimed that hormones are responsible for everything, just a large part of ones sex drive in this case.

[LadyHawkAZ]

96. I appreciate you sharing your story

I've been through the whole depression/social anxiety mill and know how rough it can be. I sincerely hope things get better for you a lot sooner than they did for me.

Women are actually just as visual- we just haven't been encouraged to be as open about it, and we don't have the same visible signs (one of many reasons I'm glad to be female). A lot of the problems you see debated are like that- the result of cultural training, not hardwiring. Men and women have been brought up, for the most part, to see the other gender more or less as an opponent to be conquered. Put a man who's been taught to see women as a blowjob on legs together with a woman who's been taught that all men are rapists, and nothing good can possibly happen. It's getting better, but there's a long way to go yet.

[ismnotwasm]

98. Actually

The complaints from women I hear about revolve around being reduced to a series of body parts and various orifices, not decent compliments. You learn the difference. It's not that difficult and what you're referring to as a biological imperative isn't as important as respect and honoring the human form. Leave biology out of it, bring art and love and wonder and aesthetics and spirit into it.


The biological augments are a work in progress; we discovery more about gender roles every day, and the fact of the matter is nothing is set on stone.

You sound like a nice guy; the is nothing wrong with honest admiration of the opposite sex, or the same sex, if that is how you're made.

I've gotten unsolicited compliments that weren't offensive in any way. Some men 'get it'. I've been made to feel uncomfortable and afraid walking down the street. Some men don't 'get it'.


So, look, admire or want, just remember there is a human being that is the object of your attentions, with insecurities and fears just as you have.

Men are grown, they presumably know right from wrong when it comes to respectful and honorable behavior, you sound like one of those, or you could be. Don't let your own fears stop you from being an honorable man. And may you meet the honorable woman of your dreams, if that is what you are looking for.

[redqueen]

119. Well said. nt

[Chorophyll]

124. +1

[Blue_Tires]

100. Thanks for this

I'm in a situation very similar to yours, and was trying to say something similar yesterday, but you put it better than I ever could...

[KansDem]

101. K&R

...for the rest of the story.

[Maraya1969]

113. A transgendered women explained that she was glad to get rid of all the male hormones

that ruled her life so to speak.

That being said I so wish you would go to a good counselor and get treatment for your phobia. They can do so much these days. There even use medications for social phobias to much success these days. And there are other, newer treatments that may just help you.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[4th law of robotics]

115. Men definitely face different issues here than women

Last edited Thu Sep 6, 2012, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)

particularly since any of our behaviors can be interpreted wildly differently depending on who is observing them.

A guy who isn't talkative can either be shy, or mysterious, or a creepy loner (probably a rapist).

A guy who is outgoing and personable can be charming, or fun, or an overly aggressive jerk (probably a rapist).

A guy who is clumsy but tries can either be cute, endearing, or a 'creeper' (probably a rapist).

Certain behaviors may be obviously wrong to certain women (and no I'm not talking about violence or harassment, just hitting on people when they don't want it) but they aren't always so obvious to men particularly because since there is no standard. Being any of those three things I described can either be successful, or be unsuccessful or be unsuccessful and get you labeled a deviant.

Given that the alternative is dying alone I'm not sure what we're supposed to do.

/one person on here did suggest that the only acceptable times to express attraction to a woman was either A) at bar events set up explicitly for singles or B) after your mutual friends had set you up. Attempting to hit on a woman at any other time was creepy and smacked of rapist/serial killer. I . . . didn't care for that restriction.

[Blue_Tires]

142. +1

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

162. Don't forget another label....

....gay.

Yup, homophobia is another aspect that creeps into women's judgements of men.

[4th law of robotics]

164. True. That is another way of publicly shaming men

in to behaving as women wish.

And that's another one that can go both ways: ignoring women and just minding your own business? What are you gay or something?

Going over to hit on those women? What are you trying to prove, you overcompensating because you're gay?

I've seen a little bit in the reverse (if a woman doesn't like some guy he may call her a lesbian in anger) but it seems to go primarily in one direction.

[loli phabay]

175. another aspect is the animosity towards trans/cd/tv from a lot of women

a lot of women ive seen get very jealous of them sometimes due to the attention sometimes its because the extreme sexual nature depending on the individual. ID say that in my experience more vehemence comes from females than males in these situations.

[LanternWaste]

123. I used to have hang ups and blamed a lot of people for not acquiescing to them

I used to have hang ups and blamed a lot of people for not acquiescing to them; however, although it took quite some time, I've since learned that no one else is responsible for how I interact with other people... and a large part of how they perceive me lies in how I act and what I do when I'm around them

[cbdo2007]

135. Thanks for this response....

It isn't hitting exactly what I was wanting to say, but I think I know what you're getting at and it beats me trying to respond to the "other" thread and getting a bunch of angry responses.

Unfortunately, here at DU (and probably most places) people take extreme circumstances and act like that is the norm for most people when really that is usually a very small/specialized sample of reality.

I asked my wife about any experiences she's had like the one mentioned in the other OP and she couldn't think of anything happening even remotely close to those experiences, and couldn't even think of any time she had been complimented or hit on for at least 5 years. Maybe it's because we're in the midwest or something, but there definitely isn't anything going on on a daily basis that helps her form her opinion of men.

I've never been hit on or complimented by a woman who I wasn't actively in a relationship with, in my entire life, so.....I guess I don't know what that's like, but who knows, maybe it'll happen for me some day. I can only hope so.

[Taverner]

146. We guys do get the upper hand tho...

Peeing standing up (my wife is so jealous of this,) not always being scared when alone with a stranger in an elevator, and not having to worry about what "message" my clothes send out - these are just a few of the benefits being male contains.

[Nikia]

148. Maybe you would have better luck if you didn't see women as so different than you

Some men seem to see women as this mysterious "other" and therefore don't treat us like people. Most women like to treated as people. I don't know your individual lifestyle, but maybe it would be better to meet some women as people. You could do that by getting involved in some kind of organization or activity that you are interested in. I've suffered from anxiety too so I know that it can be hard but sometimes you just have to make yourself show up. I don't know what kind of help that you are getting for anxiety and depression, but you may need more help if you can't get to that point.
Women are visual too. Are you looking the best you can? This might be unfair to say since I don't make as much of an effort as most women to look the best that I can either, but I'm married anyway. I have noticed that most men in my area have poor grooming habits and dress like slobs. I don't know you so maybe you are doing well in this area, but if you can improve at all, this will put you ahead of other men. I don't know what your criteria for women is. Some men have unrealistic expectations. They only consider the top 5-10% of women lookwise when they aren't even close to that themselves. Some "shy" or "nerdy" guys won't consider "shy" or "nerdy" women either.

[4th law of robotics]

158. I'd say that advice cuts both ways.

Some men seem to see women as this mysterious "other" and therefore don't treat us like people

Some women seem to see men as this threatening "other" and therefore don't treat us like people.

I believe the term "Schrodinger's rapist" get's thrown around from time to time.


If women don't like being treated as a mysterious but intriguing object how do you suppose men feel being treated as a mysterious and dangerous object?

[Nikia]

167. I don't think that this is the same thing

The original poster wants to date a woman. The woman on the subway wants men to leave her alone. These are two different things. You might say they both see the other gender as other but the implication is not the same.
As a woman, I am not offended that the original poster sees women as the mysterious other because he does not hurt women by leaving them alone. He is only hurting himself by seeing women as mysterious and staying away from them. I wish that most men who hold sexist attitudes, more harmful than that of the original poster, would just stay away from women.
You and some other men seem offended though that a woman, who sees man as "other", might just want to be left alone, that it is a big insult to you as a man that she might not want to talk to you. Rather than seeing it as her loss, some men want to badger her into engaging with them and get all offended if she doesn't or is "rude".
Do you see the difference?

[4th law of robotics]

169. I never said

I say it as an insult to me as a man that a woman doesn't want to talk to me.

I clearly stated that I don't care for the assumption that I'm a rapist/serial killer if I do.

It's a moot point since I'm married but still, do we really need to live in a society where a man saying "hi" is reasons for assuming he's the worst kind of human being?

[Romulox]

159. Not to be a jerk, but none of the guys on this thread speak for me!

[seabeyond]

163. you made me laugh....

and though we may disagree, i get it and there is always a conversation. but, i am glad to hear this.

[4th law of robotics]

165. I generally assume no one is speaking for anyone except themselves

unless those other people explicitly state "so and so is speaking for me".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. i expect people to behave in a civilized way and unlike animals

am i wrong to expect this standard from men? is it too high a standard?

[Paladin]

168. Doe Anyone Else Find This Thread Profoundly Sad? (nt)