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Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:16 AM

Democrats quietly debate expanding impeachment articles beyond Ukraine

My opinion is that the impeachment quest should not be limited to Ukraine issues. I could make some predictions but won't (like the moderates will eventually chose to expand impeachment beyond the Ukraine). I want to be consciously optimistic that Trump is impeached and then convicted and removed from office by the Senate.


Democrats quietly debate expanding impeachment articles beyond Ukraine

WAPO December 2, 2019

House Democrats are debating whether to expand articles of impeachment to include charges beyond abuse of power in the Ukraine controversy, setting up a potential internal clash as the party races to impeach President Trump by Christmastime.

Members of the House Judiciary Committee and other more liberal-minded lawmakers and congressional aides have been privately discussing the possibility of drafting articles that include obstruction of justice or other “high crimes” they believe are clearly outlined in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report — or allegations that Trump has used his office to benefit his bottom line.

The idea, however, is running into resistance from some moderate Democrats wary of impeachment blowback in their GOP-leaning districts, as well as Democratic leaders who sought to keep impeachment narrowly focused on allegations that Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rivals, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk freely.

The debate is expected to play out in leadership and caucus meetings this week, as the House Intelligence Committee prepares to hand the impeachment inquiry to the House Judiciary Committee. The Intelligence Committee is scheduled to vote Tuesday night on its final report on Ukraine, allowing Judiciary to then work on writing articles of impeachment based on that document.

But the Judiciary Committee also has asked other investigative panels to send any findings of Trump-related misdeeds that they believe are impeachable. And many of the committee members are hoping articles will refer to and cite their own months-long investigation into the Mueller report, which described 10 possible instances of obstruction by the president.

more at: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-quietly-debate-expanding-impeachment-articles-beyond-ukraine/ar-BBXFFvp?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=spartanntp

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:45 AM

1. Obstruction of Congress may be simple enough to add, to Ukraine,

to pass muster of 'doubting' Dems. Charges/counts should NOT be complex, and ideally won't include Mueller-related aspects. IMO

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:50 AM

2. These "moderates" are wrong. I agree "don't impeach him for every last thing" but there is plenty

of egregious iron-clad cases which are not merely impeachable but clearly felonious. Impeach him for some of those too.

If you restrict it to Ukraine, then the MAGAt-ish drones only need to experience one kind of cognitive dissonance or reality denial to ignore it.

Make them jump through hoop after hoop after hoop to keep supporting GrOPers/Trump. Most will, I know, but additional hoops will peel off a small fraction each iteration (albeit with diminishing returns).

The inclusion of a few other issues beyond Ukraine would probably move the public more, without necessarily seeming overtly partisan -- if chosen carefully.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:17 AM

6. I agree. Conviction won't happen regardless, but that's beside the point.

Make Republicans twist themselves into knots even more than they already do.

Also, to not impeach Trump for various other crimes would set a dangerous precedent. What would we be saying about future administrations? That they can, quite simply, do whatever the hell they want.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:21 AM

7. That's correct. They seem to be in contemplative mode which is heartening.

Mb our leaders read some o' these such posts on DU. 🤓 Good going! 👊

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:56 AM

3. if they can pry lose evidence that he obstructed mueller, they need to add it.

mueller was successfully obstructed.
prove that, and toss it on the pile.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:03 AM

4. There are 10 counts of Obstruction detailed in the Mueller Report

Not to mention the Fact that Trump compensated Cohen while serving as President in the Stormy Daniels case - an illegal campaign finance scheme for which Cohen plead guilty to and is now serving prison time for said violation ..He handed the Trump check to Congress .... ! ) Ukraine 2 ) The Trump hush money payments to Stormy Daniels ..3) Obstruction of Justice 4 ) Contempt of Congress …..…...Why just Ukraine ? ……..Make the GOP Congress members and Senators look like total assholes when they vote to not impeach or convict this criminal President ….. The Dems have the evidence to nail Trump on 4 counts ….Limiting the impeachment inquiry to just Ukraine is a decision which will have the historians scratching their heads 100 years from now …..The moderates will have a stronger case to present to the folks back home if more of Trump's wrongdoings are included in the Articles of Impeachment exhibited to the Senate ……

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:07 AM

5. They need to keep the Articals of Impeachment concise & easily undertood. Yje only way to

The only way to get any Pubs to vote FOR Imp. is to get the voters contacting their Sens because THEY understand how bad DT's actions were and he must be removed. The only thing those Sens care about is reelection, and if enough of their constituents call saying IMP. they'd ignore DT & vote with the voters wishes.

Keep it simple so the voters comp[lately understand it.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:25 AM

8. Think I would structure it that Ukraine goes first

with public declaration that "other serious charges" are being still being investigated, and considered for likely referral in subsequent "impeachment" votes.

(And frankly .. from my uninformed position .. I see no need for a big push to get Ukraine out by Christmas. But, more than happy to let House leaders lead the way here.)

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:12 AM

9. Make An Article For Every Impeachable Offense And Pound It Out For All To See

A trillion cuts.

Won't matter to many of Trump's cult lemmings, but anyone who believes in what America is supposed to stand for will not be able to avoid hearing about ALL OF TRUMP'S CRIMES all day and night.

All the time we can make fun of his "helper" traitor backers in the House and Senate, and on Fox Lies.

Hit him with all we got. Let the traitors try to lie it away day after day.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 04:18 AM

10. Yes Please, include Emoluments, campaign finance law violations, and the known documented

Obstruction of Justices that Muller got.

Remember remember we let GWB off the hook on torture. Turning our noble heroes into Geneva Convention violaters. Aaa#@&!*-&@
Now our troops overseas if captured cannot expect our adversaries to play nice.

Also the massive deception to invade Iraq. Another crime against our people, especially those who have the last full measure of devotion. And their families.

Make them think twice about Federal Prison or the death penality, BEFORE we bury our 18-25yr old kids. BEFORE we lose so many from the backbone of the Armed Forces the noncommissioned officers who train, lead, and fight with the rank and file. Officers too, all of our military people, just should not be wasted.

Senator Paul Wellstone spelled it out on the floor of the Senate. Invading IRAQ will be detrimental to national security.

WMD!! Yellow Cake!! After all he tried to kill my daddy. This from a guy who fought the Vietnam War in Alabama with Jack Daniels. The law should be applied to GWB, make them fear the consequences.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 06:11 AM

11. Why give Trump a pass on other impeachable offenses?

Political calculation is the only reason.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 07:02 AM

12. This is a conspiracy to obstruct justice.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 08:32 AM

13. " ... wary of impeachment blowback in their GOP-leaning districts, ..."

Republican talking point

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