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Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:07 PM

This was all for nothing -- that's what my so-called Democratic friend says.

Last edited Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Today on Facebook I reposted the Kyle Griffith tweet that got so much of the positivity around here that's kept me hopeful and committed.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212741692

I couldn't believe what my Democratic friend said.


Iím not at all impressed by how theyíve handled this.

Itís exactly like the Mueller Report, which liberals everywhere hung SOOO much weight on only to have it produce essentially ZERO results against Trump...

when itís over - letís see what it produces.

So far my prediction is that itís going to produce exactly the same result - nothing.

I fully agree with you about the facts of the issues.
Of course Muellerís report was right.
Of course the impeachment proceedings are right.

But that means nothing if there is no end result of stopping Trump or removing him from office.

If he and everything just carries on like he has since the Mueller Report then itís a fail.
Even if all of it was factually correct.

But thatís just me.

Time WILL tell.
And then weíll know...



He's not a close friend, just a fellow Democrat in the northwest (and not on DU) who I've constantly exchanged political views with. I thought I knew his view of the last year but I must have been wrong.

Now I wonder if most Democrats actually feel the way he does. If so, then I've gotten swept up here into thinking that they think like me. Or us. If they don't, maybe I've been out of touch. I feel too old to be so disheartened and naive.

Maybe as a Democrat he's just gauging the way the rest of the country, who are not Democratic, sees what's been happening.

I HAVE to know that preserving rule of law will come out of this. If he's right, and his view is closer to reality out there, I don't know what I'll do. Except vote, of course.




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Reply This was all for nothing -- that's what my so-called Democratic friend says. (Original post)
ancianita Sunday OP
LakeArenal Sunday #1
ancianita Sunday #2
TwilightZone Sunday #3
ancianita Sunday #9
TwilightZone Sunday #18
ancianita Sunday #23
BlueTsunami2018 Sunday #4
blm Sunday #5
ancianita Sunday #10
blm Sunday #13
ancianita Sunday #16
LanternWaste Tuesday #62
Hortensis Sunday #6
ancianita Sunday #12
Quackers Sunday #7
ancianita Sunday #14
Stuart G Monday #41
lunatica Sunday #8
ancianita Sunday #17
sop Sunday #11
ancianita Sunday #15
dawg day Sunday #20
sop Sunday #21
ancianita Sunday #24
YOHABLO Sunday #26
ancianita Sunday #28
brush Sunday #36
ancianita Sunday #37
rzemanfl Sunday #22
dawg day Sunday #19
ancianita Sunday #25
yellowdogintexas Sunday #27
ancianita Sunday #29
rockfordfile Sunday #30
ancianita Sunday #32
Binkie The Clown Sunday #31
ancianita Sunday #33
Binkie The Clown Sunday #35
greytdemocrat Monday #40
greytdemocrat Sunday #34
ancianita Sunday #38
greytdemocrat Monday #42
ancianita Monday #49
Blecht Sunday #39
aikoaiko Monday #43
ancianita Monday #44
LanternWaste Tuesday #61
Laura PourMeADrink Monday #53
LovingA2andMI Monday #45
ancianita Monday #46
Garrett78 Monday #47
ancianita Monday #48
Laura PourMeADrink Monday #54
Lock him up. Monday #50
ancianita Monday #56
nitpicker Monday #51
Laura PourMeADrink Monday #52
ancianita Monday #57
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ancianita Tuesday #60
Laura PourMeADrink Tuesday #63
mnhtnbb Monday #55
Laura PourMeADrink Tuesday #59

Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:15 PM

1. I see my cup filling up.

I think they will be the ones who canít get out the vote. 38-40% thatís his base wonít be enough.

So my cup is half full.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:24 PM

2. I hear you. Thanks.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:25 PM

3. He's not entirely wrong.

Impeachment was always extremely unlikely to remove Trump from office. We can provide a variety of reasons why we're pursuing it, but the reality is that in this particular instance, it's a political process intended to sway people to either stay home or vote against Trump in 2020.

If your expectation is "preserving the rule of law", impeachment is unlikely to do that, at least where Trump is concerned. It's not really designed to do that - it's designed to essentially indict the president and supply evidence for his removal by the Senate. Of course, the latter is unlikely to happen. In that, your friend's view is accurate. If the primary intent was removal or some tangible legal penalty, it will likely fail, but as I noted, that's not really the intent.

I don't agree with your friend in his assertion that there's no benefit. The benefit is providing a forum in which we can further detail why Trump is unfit for office and why he should not be reelected in 2020. From that perspective, it's not "all for nothing".

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:50 PM

9. We cannot say no one is above the law if it's not enforceable. Unenforceable law is no law at all.

It's more like guidelines, which most of this country's stateless rich have pretty much communicated to the rest of us, off and on, for decades.

At this point, if people see that some exempt themselves and their ilk from rule of law, then the Constitution will not mean much, having been conditioned by now to see that it's only enforceable on those too poor to ignore it. It's the Animal Money Farm where some are more equal than others.

What law will mean in this country, going forward, is that belief in justice under rule of law is not, in fact, justice.

Law, justice, are just some agreed upon construct, like impeachment, that will in fact no longer work unless all the "parts" are near perfect in commitment to that construct.

Removing him by election in 2020 won't fix what people learn from this. The truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:06 PM

18. Impeachment isn't a legal process.

It's a legislative (and political) process, not a legal one.

The only penalties available under conviction by the Senate are removal from office and preclusion from holding future office.

You seem to be expecting the process to afford penalties beyond that. That's simply not how the process works, nor does the Constitution provide for anything of that nature. Any penalties of a legal nature would need to go through the legal system.

Impeachment doesn't apply to anyone other than the president, certain other elected officials and some judges. For the civilian population, it's irrelevant. Standards set by the impeachment process do not apply to anything within the civilian legal system.

Anyone trying to use Trump's impeachment as a defense in a civil or criminal case would be laughed out of court. They have nothing to do with each other.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:22 PM

23. I admit a tendency to conflate the two. But what is Constitutional law if not enforceable upon any

Last edited Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:19 PM - Edit history (1)

branch of government. A political -- not legal -- process like this says that any president can be above the law. As in ABOVE any consequences for breaking it.

Trump walked in knowing this, didn't he.

Aside from this sounding academic, it also sounds as if we should have always known that enforcement is real only for those who can't afford "legal teams," and is a Constitutional process -- read "theater" -- for those who can.

A democratic political process has to mean some kind of tangible justice before the majority of Americans, or real "harm" has been done, measurable or immeasurable.

There is much harm in an end result of the political process being nothing.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:30 PM

4. Your friend is unfortunately correct I'm afraid.

The Democrats have done everything right here and the evidence is overwhelming but there is nothing that is going to come of this. Theyíll impeach him, the Senate will not convict him, heíll claim total exoneration again and thereís a damn good chance he steals another election if we do not come out overwhelmingly against him, fully united, in the November election.

Then America dies for good and for all. The rule of law will have been destroyed if we can/will not hold this guy responsible for his very obvious crimes or vote him out. Heíll have free reign to commit even worse acts, further ruin the courts for a generation and further dismantle the government institutions.

If there was a base reality that everyone worked off of, heíd have been gone a long time ago but there isnít. The cult will not be moved by any of this, they live in a completely different world where heís done nothing wrong and if he did ďso what?Ē. And without the Republican base turning, none of the elected republicans will either for fear of losing their jobs. He cannot be held to account if they wonít choose country over party and they wonít.

The Democratic actions here arenít for nothing, itís the right thing to do regardless of result but in the end itíll be largely symbolic in my opinion. Somehow, this dimwit has managed to break the country and no one knows what to do about it.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:30 PM

5. Preserving the historic record matters, too. We can know about the many layers

of the BCCI scandal today because Kerry kept on with the investigations into its complex schemes despite his fellow lawmakers disinterest in pursuing the powerful figures behind it and the American publicís inability to grasp the scope of the corruption involved.

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Response to blm (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:51 PM

10. And what good is intelligence. What good is knowing. What has Kerry told us is the benefit of it.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:58 PM

13. I read the report. It changes anyone who reads it.

Iím just not INTO remaining ignorant because some feel itís an easier road.

What good comes from ignorance?

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Response to blm (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:02 PM

16. No good. I know this. But understanding is the booby prize. The next question is 'Now what?'

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Response to ancianita (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:55 PM

62. What is the specific, legal end-goal you're looking for in all this?

As you're consistently trivializing and minimizing the wide myriad of responses you're getting as "not good enough", your own standard of expectations is implicitly above that of all the responses you've received, and I'm rather curious as to what then is your own specific, practical and legal goal?



(btw: understanding a thing is a necessary predicate to rationally act on a thing... not a prize)

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:32 PM

6. It's hard to be ignorant and brave. Seriously.

Knowing something bad will happen tends to create a certainty and courage to meet it, while only fearing it will creates insecurity and more fear. Anyone hanging here knows some people protect themselves from continuing fear by prematurely insisting failure is inevitable and hurrying to surrender to it.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:56 PM

12. I've seen it before. I've never wanted to surrender. We're talking millions here. A mental landscape

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:38 PM

7. My advice? Take a step back from impeachment.

What will happen, will happen. Too much negativity will start affecting your health. I used to check the headlines every few minutes, constantly checking trumps twitter as if it were a barometer of how things were going. In all honesty, it had me so tied up in knots, it felt like I was struggling to breathe. This past week, I took a step back, mostly because the holidays forced me too. I started back into wood working to try and ease some anxiety. In the end, I realized how negatively it had affected me and in turn how my mood was affecting my family.

Trump will get his one way or another. Just donít let it take you down too.

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Response to Quackers (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:59 PM

14. Thank you. I'll seriously think on your advice. I think I have to.

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Response to Quackers (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:07 AM

41. I agree completely with two of your ideas:

Idea number one: Take a step back from impeachment.

...........................Yes, absolutely yes!!... Too much negativity will start affecting your health. Most of
............................us are not in charge of much, let alone impeachment. Yes, knowing
............................ about it can give us information and knowledge, but it can hurt too.

Idea number two: Trump will get his one way or another. If that means he will be punished & gets
............................ what he deserves when someone hurts a lot of people and breaks the law,
........................... then I agree completely. He will be taken down in due time. We don't know when.
............................That is believing that Schiff and company will never quit. And they
............................wont quit. Trump will go down, and it will not be nice for the Republican Party & will
............................destroy it for good, but there will be another like it after destruction. That is what
............................our history is like. One political party goes, and another takes its place.
............................Our country has been through worse, and we will survive this too.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:40 PM

8. Your friend sounds disheartened and exhausted.

Thatís the way most of us feel because of the standard responses the Republicans give. Because of Nunes and Gym Jordanís insistence that there is nothing impeachable.

If your friend doesnít have something as powerful as DU to come to that explains how he feels. The media is staying so determined to keep both sides in some false balance as if both sides are somehow equal then people are getting the idea that the Trump,side is winning.

Itís as if all We had as a source of news was Chuck Todd and no one else. Wouldnít that be depressing and discouraging? It sure would!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:06 PM

17. That's what I wanted to call him -- the Chuck Todd Democrat. You make really good points about

those kinds of Democrats.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:55 PM

11. It will be well worth it just to watch Trump lose his mind whenever the media refers to him as

"the impeached President Trump" during the entire 2020 election, and for the rest of his natural life. He will forever be remembered in history books as the corrupt traitor who did Putin's bidding.

Besides, there are millions of people out there who don't have a clue about the whole Ukraine scandal, and couldn't tell you who Adam Schiff is if their children's lives depended on it. These folks seemingly live in caves, only coming out to vote every two/four years. The fact that Trump has been "impeached" may sway them when they crawl from their holes and head for the polls.

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Response to sop (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:00 PM

15. Will he? It hasn't happened to the other presidents I've seen impeached. Just sayin'.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:09 PM

20. LOL-- you're right. Clinton -- the only other impeached pres since the 19thC--

Didn't run again (he was in his second term), so he didn't go crazy. And support for his impeachment was utterly confined to 30%, just the radical Republicans.

So Clinton isn't a good precedent, and there are literally no others.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:12 PM

21. How many have you seen impeached?

Only Clinton, I would assume, and he famously "compartmentalized" the entire process, not allowing it to affect the remainder of his second term. Nixon wasn't actually impeached, he resigned, but spent the year before doing so getting drunk and wandering around the WH talking to portraits. Trump's not Bill Clinton, he's already losing it on twitter every day. The impeachment process will likely drive him further round the bend.

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Response to sop (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:24 PM

24. Nixon and Clinton.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:41 PM

26. Nixon was not impeached.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:56 PM

28. True, but a foregone conclusion that he would be.

And Clinton, over lying about a semen stain -- because it was no damn body's business -- a "political process" that never should have happened.

THIS time we've got a high crime that will, through a political process, come to nothing.

At least, now, any future president has learned how to not be impeached for any damn high crime.

I despair for any meaning in Constitutional law. It's just a construct that can't withstand high corporate corruption. Because it's unenforceable.

All I can do now is vote for a better president and Democratic majority Senate.

And hope that SDNY will indict and jail this corrupt WH occupant when he leaves.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:27 PM

36. They didn't run for re-election. Big difference.

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Response to brush (Reply #36)


Response to sop (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:21 PM

22. My calculator says it is time to wash socks. n/t

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:07 PM

19. I always suspect the ones who use "liberal" as a slur --

I don't believe they're usually actually Democrats. They so often seem to want to discourage Democratic action and stoke internal divisions... trollish.

Not saying your friend is that way, but seriously, why would he be so quick to dismiss the enormous progress not to mention that already 50% are for impeachment and removal?

Just remind him that this landmark wasn't reached for Nixon until a month before he resigned.

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Response to dawg day (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:26 PM

25. I forgot to remind him of that, thanks. I forgot there were even polls back then, or if they were

even publicized.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:49 PM

27. also remind him of this:

Regardless of outcome, it was imperative that the House move forward with the impeachment process if only for ONE reason: If it was not done now, then we have no moral standing to bring impeachment against any future president no matter how horrible that person is.

This is the absolutely most necessary time to pursue impeachment. If not Trump, then who?

We are in violation of the Constitution if we don't.

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Response to yellowdogintexas (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:01 PM

29. The Constitution is in violation of justice, as well, if it doesn't allow indicting a president.

One damn DOJ memo should never put any president above the law. Ever.

You ask "If not Trump, then who?" And I say no one.

The template for future corrupt presidents is now in place, even if not permanently.

The makeup of the future three branches could change today's impasse, but I won't be around to see it.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:02 PM

30. If the GOP doesn't convict, impeachment will backup how un-American and corrupt the gop is.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:05 PM

32. They'll be like Putin, saying, "So what. That and a bus token will get you kids across town."

Then where will this country be.

In the meantime, the rising climate crisis does not care.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:05 PM

31. My take: Sadly, nothing will happen...

Trump will be re-elected, and we Dems will go right on bitching and complaining and accomplishing nothing for the next four years.

I wish it weren't so, god, how it wish it weren't so, but, unfortunately, if the past is any indication of the future, that's how it's all going to play out. I'd like to be an optimist, but my 75 years have taught me to be a realist.

( Running for cover, now, but don't forget I said it.)

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:08 PM

33. Man, I thought I was despairing. Being this "realist," are you still going to vote?

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Response to ancianita (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:13 PM

35. Absolutely, I will vote, and I hope I'm totally wrong.

Nothing would make me happier than to admit I was wrong.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #35)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:04 AM

40. Sadly

You aren't.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:13 PM

34. Your friend is exactly right. n/t

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:34 PM

38. If my friend's right, and the majority here agree with him, then what's the point. Rule of law is

showing itself to be only for the exoneration of the clever, and the forced taxation and no representation for everyone else.

If that is even part of the reason 48% of voting age Americans don't vote, then I now understand why.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:08 AM

42. I doubt the majority

here agree with him.

But that doesn't make him wrong.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 01:49 AM

49. I took a count. They do. And they explain why. So this was valuable to me.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 11:52 PM

39. It sounds like he watches TV

Most of the pundits are screaming this nonstop, and more people watching will believe it. Facts be damned.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:08 AM

43. Doing the ethically correct things doesn't guarantee it works our well for us.



It just means we did the right thing and we have to be happy with that.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:26 AM

44. Structurally, nothing guarantees your happiness anymore. Believe that if you have to, though.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:47 PM

61. There was no implicit guarantee of happiness in what you responded to.

Simply an implicit recognition that often, the best we can do is simply that.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 05:38 AM

53. Yes. It's easy to let ourselves fall into the illusion that

"this guy's a crook and everyone will realize it at some point." Or that those 20-30 closet repuke senators will vote aye at a trial. It seems so crystal clear to us.

But unless we see a major decline in dipshit's approval...it is totally unlikely to happen. They will not cut off their nose despite their face.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:42 AM

45. Time To Throw In The Damn Towel

And Stay Home November 3, 2020. What's the use, as it is all written and Trump will win, right?

Well, tell your friend that if that is the route they would like to go, so be it. The ones that give a shit about this Democracy will go vote.

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 12:53 AM

46. Oh, he's going to vote. And I'll always vote. Read Part 2. He's realistic. I'm the one who's down.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 01:06 AM

47. First, one should never assume the DU crowd is reflective of the overall Dem electorate.

Most people simply don't pay that much attention to politics. Never underestimate US ignorance. US ignorance should be declared a national emergency.

Secondly, impeachment is necessary - if for no other reason - because to not impeach that criminal asshole would set a horrifying precedent. Watergate was child's play by comparison. Trump is a clear and present danger. Dems and responsible members of the media should be repeatedly making it crystal clear that Trump is a threat to national security. He's willing to betray allies and assist adversaries in exchange for personal favors. Trump is a much, much greater threat than any terrorist organization.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 01:34 AM

48. I don't assume that. DU's had that discussion a number of times. And so yes, ignorance IS a national

emergency.

While we talk a love of schools, we've got to realize that while most things are more valuable than money, we must pay money to have those things. School and a well educated public is one of them.

The Founders were human, so I forgive them for not making education a fundamental constitutional right, and turning it over to the local parochialisms of states. We've paid dearly for that mistake. The rich believe that NO amount of money is too much for their kids' educations, as evidenced by all the racket of rigging acceptances to Ivy Leagues (recently a Hollywood sting). Their big lie to poorer Americans is that they can be competitive on the cheap. We need to fix that whole class war framing.

Yes, impeachment's necessary, and I agree with everything else you say.

But a DOJ memo should nevernevernever trump proof beyond a reasonable doubt of a high crime that should indict a sitting president. We need to fix that, too.



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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 05:50 AM

54. Agree. I still don't get why the candidates are not

digging up countless examples of everything he's doing that the masses don't even know about. Things that are harmful to the masses and more apolitical.

Remember a political analyst/consultant saying that after the first debate. Yes, of course, you have to introduce yourself to the public. But you should spend the other half of your time talking about trump and why you are better. Instead, we quibble over plan details and the public tuned out.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 03:32 AM

50. The articles of impeachment have not been written yet...

let alone voted on.

Once they will be, and let's say there is one on 'Obstruction of Congress' (which is obvious to even Russiablicans), just let the 'media' try to state otherwise (they won't be able to make sense, not even faux nooze).

Why the defeatism before we see the exact articles is beyond comprehension (to me).

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Response to Lock him up. (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 11:36 AM

56. I agree, and argued vociferously against his outlook. He calls it 'realism,' not defeatism. But the

air of defeatism often infects realists. At least he's optimistic about 2020's turnout being the change he doesn't yet see.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 04:11 AM

51. IMO, reality plus fear

I think

Reality: The votes in the Senate aren't there to convict and remove.

Fear: That he will somehow achieve a second term.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 05:29 AM

52. It's always been an exercise of doing what is right and

standing up to a criminal tyrant. Your friend is right... nothing happened to him after Mueller report. We can hope getting impeached will deter him from future malfeasance. It may not. But at least we tried and did the right thing.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 11:43 AM

57. Whoever successfully lobbies Republican senators needs to "at least try," too. Soon.

Any Republican senator's vote to exonerate in the face of proof beyond reasonable doubt of a high crime, stands as an article of impeachment against that senator.

It pisses me off that Dems are shoved into the position of having to "try" to punish them for the blatant breach of their oaths of office.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 08:57 AM

58. Hear ya. But just maybe standing up and clearly

stating unequivocally that what he has done is 100% wrong and impeachable is the best course of action. And repeat over and over. It then becomes obvious to all their voters that they don't think it's wrong? Michael Steele said yesterday that their strategy is clear...confuse matters with all kinds of fog and other theories. Maybe our goal should only be the counter that?

Every republican has some Indies and conservative Dems who may now want him impeached, voting for them, right? That is where they are primed to lose some degree of support if the vote no on Impeachment???

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:37 PM

60. Standing up and calling out are the righteous booby prize when scofflaws say: "whatcha gonna do?!

Last edited Wed Dec 4, 2019, 08:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Thought so!"

And go on with their scofflaw ruination of a country's systems like some wild west siloviki.

You've heard by now how over five red states don't want to participate in the Census, though it's constitutionally mandated, and they don't want Trump's Republican opponent on the ballot in many red states, as well, so they're not even going to have state primaries.

Those moves, along with these federal moves, are evidence that we're moving into Putin/Russia style government control by a minority of mafia types.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #60)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 11:32 PM

63. Actually Kasich said same thing on cnn

Impeachment, no conviction, move on to election talk. More will come out and republican senators will really be worried about their seats.

Actually feeling rather optimistic

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 05:56 AM

55. I am not ready to give in to a predetermined end

If the Republican Senators in swing States who are up for re-election do not vote to convict--and I live in NC where Tillis is up--then Democrats in those states need to hammer home the message just what refusing to follow the rule of law means.

I think we will swing the Senate our way if we do.

We have to do what is right and not give up without a fight.

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Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 09:02 AM

59. Yes...just can't see how a no vote could possibly help

a repuke senator. And you are right - need to hammer that home. I actually like the position. Even if we can't get rid of the MF there's that silver lining.

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