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Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:32 PM

Why do we buy into the worship of the military?

When my son was about 11, I sat him down and told him that no matter what, I would never support him joining the military. No way would I ever allow him to be cannon fodder in a rich man’s war. When we say “thank you for your service”, whose interests are they actually being “served”? As a young girl when I learned about war, I was horrified and couldn’t believe there could be such a thing. In my little girl’s mind, it was a game where the opposing teams died. I remember thinking this couldn’t be true. Perhaps if we ever evolve as a species, people will look back and be horrified that war was ever a thing. Or not. I’m expecting to be pilloried by DUes, but to me war and worship of the military is kind of insane as its most basic level. An please no lectures about how the military “protects my freedom”. The military industrial complex could give two shits about this black girl’s “freedom”. Really I think most people joint the military because they lack other options, but they’re given the consolation prize of “respect” and “gratitude” so everybody feels better about it.

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Reply Why do we buy into the worship of the military? (Original post)
Dream Girl Nov 2019 OP
msongs Nov 2019 #1
DENVERPOPS Nov 2019 #50
Hortensis Nov 2019 #172
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A HERETIC I AM Nov 2019 #133
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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:35 PM

1. well someone has to die to protect the interests of American multi-national corporations nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:40 PM

50. Perfectly said

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #50)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 11:13 PM

172. Some respect and concern for them as PEOPLE is in order.

They are both individuals, real PEOPLE, who make their own choices and are also manipulated by people who need enlistments. Most have a number of reasons for joining the military. Finding a way not to join the family business right out of high school or to escape a girlfriend become too serious, and to get to travel, to get training and, yes, also to serve their nation as they're taught, are enormously more common than an inhuman willingness to murder for business. And none of them are mindless nothings.

Btw, imo, portraying good sense, awareness of what causes people to join the military, and decency and concern for them as people as "worship" is profoundly dishonest, even if this weren't a liberal-dominated forum, full of people literally incapable of "worshipping" the military.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:36 PM

2. I think it started going overboard after 9/11

It also extends to police and fireman. Those people deserve respect but not a free pass to act the way many of them do.

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Response to captain queeg (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:41 PM

4. Don't get me started on firefighters. Yes there is danger and some put there lives on the

Line, but I know upfront and personal, it is one real sweet gig. Note that most firefighters are white men even in big cities - an indicator of how desireable those jobs are.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:05 PM

63. I couldn't agree

I couldn't agree with you more Dream Girl.........

It is like going to heaven to get a job in the fire service for the most part........

When I sometimes share with someone what a dream job it is, they are appalled at what I tell them.
As you said, there are times when some do truly heroic things......

Firefighters and Police are usually paid the same amount. I told all my buddies that Police should earn at least twice as much as fire fighters are paid. Their jobs are ten times more riskier (or more) There certainly are departments where the Fire crews make many more runs a day than in smaller medium sized cities. New York city comes to mind......

There are more and more "progressive" departments, so things are changing. But the larger, older departments are so infatuated with "tradition" they will never change to a better or safer way of doing things.
A perfect example is the classic fire ax that you all see on the fire engines, ladder trucks..........
It is the most worthless tool ever invented for the fire service and should have been thrown out decades and decades ago. Even more laughable is San Franciso where, if I am not mistaken, is still using wooden fire ladders.......

The other thing that you mention Dream Girl, and is definitely true, is when you said "white men".
I think the public recognizes how racist and sexist most (not all) police departments and officers are. I have found that the public has no idea how the same is true of most fire departments and firefighters that I have known.......

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #63)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:33 PM

133. The idea that police work is incredibly dangerous or "riskier" as you put it, is a canard

On every list of the most dangerous occupations, I, as a truck driver, have to look DOWN the list at LEAST 4 or 5 spots from where I sit to find "Police Officer".

Being a cop isn't dangerous. Being a dangerous cop is, however.

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #133)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:52 PM

139. You are correct

At one time being a cab driver was more dangerous than being a cop but that was mostly because of vehicle accidents because they drive so many miles.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #139)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:56 PM

140. Yup.

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #133)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:12 PM

144. I totally agree with your first statement

There is no question, with logging being on the top of the list I think. I was comparing Fire and Police jobs.

On the second, I won't agree. I think in Colorado alone LAST YEAR we lost five state patrolmen who were actively in the act of helping someone..........

No question that there are substantial numbers of police that should never have made it past filling out the application.

Another comment about the bad cops that exist out there. What do you expect when the departments hire candidates, fresh out of the military after several tours in worn torn middle eastern countries.....I would wonder just how many of them came back with a little bit warped attitude of their power and serious PTSD?

Another comment on what is going on in the U.S. DWB arrests or DWM arrests. Driving While Black, and Driving While Minority. And of course that is in addition to the open season on: LWB or LWM.....(living)

I have memories of things when I was a child, witnessing all the racist things that were openly condoned and accepted back then.

After 65 years of that shit becoming slowly somewhat outdated, in the past 10-15 years it has gone back to the fifties, and in the last three years it is back to the early nineteen hundred.......

And as long as we are at it on comments: Listen all you ignorant hypocritical trash that are out there ranting up your White superiority and White supremacy......Fuck you all. Your european ancestors came over here and committed the largest genocide in the world's history on the 100 Million residents of this country. Columbus day is a complete travesty, being nothing more than a total pack of lies, and Thanksgiving even more so...............

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #63)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:29 AM

181. If you'd been to San Francisco you'd understand the wooden ladders

There are three kinds of ladder, metal, wood and fiberglass.

Few if any fire departments use fiberglass ladders. In a fire they produce toxic gases.

This means either metal or wood. SFO has a lot of tight spaces with overhead power lines, which are not compatible with metal ladders. So, they not only use wooden ladders but make them in-house.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #181)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:40 PM

206. ooooooo, sorry to hit a nerve.

I could write a full page "discussing" the subject, but I won't.

I bet you don't like the non-traditional new "positive pressure ventilation" either, like so many large city departments.......As well as many newer & proven superior techniques and equipment.......

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #63)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:22 PM

218. And don't forget the food!

If you ever get the chance to eat at a firehouse, by all means, do so!

Best taxpayer-funded meal you'll ever eat!

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #218)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:37 PM

224. Contrary to your popular myth

All the firefighters chip in at the beginning of every tour, and buy their own food..........

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:48 PM

88. True, most big city firefighters and police officers are White men.

And most of the time, they don't live in the places that they work it. When politicians try to make the forces more diverse to reflect the makeup of the cities, the Union's go apeshit and sometime hold rallies that are tinged with threats. This is not to say that White police officers working in majority minority cities are not good, most are excellent because they develop lines of communication with the people being policed and they deal with situations evenhandedly.

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Response to captain queeg (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:36 PM

47. Nope. First Gulf War.

That's when military personnel were first referred to as "heroes", regardless of whether or not they ever did anything heroic. There was the big "yellow ribbon" thing, as well. Some of it had to do with guilt over the way Vietnam vets were treated, however, most of it was just the usual right-wing crap, only on steroids. But, yeah. It did get even worse after 9/11.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:14 PM

67. Exactly right.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:48 PM

89. First Gulf War and before that, the invasion of Panama. The first Cable TV wars.

 

Perfect for the era of Reagan-Bush militarism (kicking the “Vietnam Syndrome” where Vietnam supposedly made Americans and the US military a bunch of softies).

9/11 and its long jingoistic aftermath only made it worse. And now we have a guy proudly pardoning war criminals. ‘Murica, Fuck Yeah.

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Response to ArtTownsend (Reply #89)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:13 PM

100. "Jingoistic."

Yep, that's the word I couldn't think of when I posted. It's why this all comes off as "worship." The sad part is that the current veterans aren't really being treated any better by those who put them up on a pedestal while on active duty, than were their Vietnam brethren. It's just of a different sort mistreatment. They hold them these men and women up as heroes, and when they come back damaged, they are forgotten. Their veterans benefits and services keep getting gutted by the very people who told them that if they enlisted, they'd be heroes. It reminds me a lot of the Right's "Love the fetus. Hate the child." mentality regarding abortion. Once the subject reaches a certain point, they don't give a shit about them. Use 'em and lose 'em.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #100)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:15 PM

102. Yup. "Cannon fodder."

 

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Response to ArtTownsend (Reply #89)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:49 PM

151. Everyone should

Everyone should get a copy of the Documentary produced by other countries documenting what TRULY happened in the so called Panama Invasion, vs what the American Public was told by OUR media.

A very highly rated European investigative reporter friend sent me a copy of the documentary video (in U.S. format) to watch after a heated debate of me touting our lack of censorship of the press in the U.S. compared to most other countries......The documentary won all kinds of awards around the world for their investigating and showing what the U.S. truly had done in that Panama Invasion. Continually, the documentary factually documented the sources and video segments they showed. It was literally a 180 degree different story, with some of the major despicable, international war crime stuff the U.S. had committed down there.

I called him and gave him a plentiful; I'm sorry for my not factual representation about media censorship in the U.S. and asked him to forgive me (and all of America) for being so blind and ignorant.

He came over the next year and lived with us for six months while he did an internship at a large TV station here in Denver. He would receive a couple of his big european city's newspapers every week to keep up to date. ( Big European Cities that were our allies by the way) We would sit down at night and find stories that were in both newspapers about some international event or something that went on in the U.S. or in the world etc.

The difference was as alarming as it was stunning, as the reported story after story by the two different countries were compared.

That was years ago, and thanks to the internet I have continued to do the same activity. The U.S. media has grown far worse every year for the past 25 years.........

Look at the British "GUARDIAN" news that shows info not ever even mentioned on page 87 in the U.S. media......

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:17 PM

103. Worship of soldiers go in cycles.

Returning WWI soldiers were honored because that was the first time our country had engaged internationally. WWII soldiers were worshipped because they had won a battle against a real-life evil. Korean War soldiers came home to less acclaim because of the standoff result of the war and more importantly, because the "enemy" was not well defined like in WWII. Vietnam soldiers came home to disrespect because of the bad acts some of them did, occasionally caught by cameras, in other cases highlighted in exhaustive investigations and breakdown of attempted coverups such as in the cases of massacres of unarmed civilians, also because of the lying of politicians and military brass.

Although many Navy Seals are likely glad to see Gallagher walk free, the way that case was handled is damaging to all Special Forces because it now causes the general public to question whether covert soldiers act ethically in all cases, regardless of the stress they are under, that feeling from the public has caused the pendulum to start swinging back away from troops. The best thing that Seals can hope for in that Gallagher simply disappear from public view, because if he stays in the public eye, his actions will continue to be analyzed and I don't think that ends well for active duty troops.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #103)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:32 AM

189. Well, except for

The Mexican War and the Spanish-Cuban-American War.

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Response to lonely bird (Reply #189)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:11 PM

221. You are right. I meant to put on a very broad scale in that sentence but forgot.

The Mexican-American and Spanish-Anerican wars can be justifiably classed as regional conflicts, although Spain was involved in the second. WWI occurred on a massive scale, drawing in close to all world nations, though a few stayed neutral.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #47)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:29 AM

180. The Hero Worship is a Planned Campaign

The Pentagon has spent billions on PR campaigns to raise the profile and change the image of the military in the eyes of Americans. This is since the Vietnam War. Witness the popularity of comaflage style clothing and imagery for a start. Remember the Marines had a Toys for Tots donation center at certain stores? Makes ‘em look good but meanwhile they were killing tots in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is all planned.

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Response to captain queeg (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:37 PM

84. The police and firefighter worship started after 9/11.

But the military situation began after the Vietnam War. Soldiers that came home in their dress uniforms were insulted in some cases. There was a lot of lying by politicians and military brass to get us into Vietnam and keep us there as long as our country stayed there (one of my older brothers did tours there as a Marine). So, with the military, some of the worship of the troops is reflex against a time when that was not the case.

In the case of police officers and soldiers, they deserve good safety equipment, good pay and respect, but for that we absolutely should hold the ones that act badly accountable for every bad act, to the full extent of the punishment that act warrants. Unless we do that, we are in a losing battle, if there is ultimately no distinction between good and evil and people seeing that those that did clear evil are punished, we are finished.

One of the most difficult things that I read in the last few days was an active duty Seal commenting that he was glad to see a President back soldiers that committ acts in the fog of war. I am sorry, plunging a knife into a seriously wounded and defenseless former combatant is not a fog of war situation, that is murder, and I would hope that our troops clearly understand that.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #84)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:53 PM

92. Good points all around. Thanks.

 

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #84)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:49 PM

207. Indeed

soldiers were spit on when they came back from Vietnam.

Many/most soldiers didn't have much of a choice about "serving" in the Viet Nam war.

Most had three choices: Get Drafted......Leavenworth......Canada.......

Cheney/Rumsfeld wanted to re-institute the draft in a big way prior to the initial Iraq invasion.
The only thing that prevented them from doing it was that Many Democrat AND Republican parents would send their kids to Europe or Canada the minute they did......The Parents and people who went thru the vietnam days would also make it a major issue and Cheney/Rumsfeld, et al would lose their chance to pull off all the totally despicable shit they masterminded......

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:40 PM

3. That's pretty much how this old white lady feels about it.

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Response to 50 Shades Of Blue (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:26 PM

202. I had the same talk with my son when he was fairly young.

It took and he was never interested in the military, especially when he realized he was gay as a teenager.

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Response to lark (Reply #202)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:56 PM

209. Ditto

I had long discussions about the humongous "Military Industrial Complex, the US's so called "police action" in Vietnam, and the totally corrupt corporate forces and Politicians and the war that they were about to get us into.......

It also made him deeply think about the countless corrupt political actions that we have seen happening since 1980.....

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)


Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:45 PM

6. You say no one died for black lives.

You might want to look into a war that occurred in 1861, then ended in 1865.

Both whites and blacks died in that war, and they died for black lives...and freedom.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:53 PM

12. Ummm that's kind of a fairy tales.

Like most wars the civil war was about economics. The desire to control westward expansion (north wanted it to be fueled by white labor while south presses for slavery), session and and states rights. It had little to do with the morality of slavery.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:02 PM

18. Oh, so good to know. Lincoln and the war had nothing to do with freeing the slaves.

Do you have any idea how many died in the Civil War? Your post astounds me.

My uncle was at D-Day in WW2; he also served to free enslaved peoples.

I don’t “worship” the military. But sadly, it seems to be something we need in our horrid world.

Smh.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:13 PM

158. Her post does more than "astound" me.

It saddens me that education is in such a sad state of decline.

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Response to Haggis for Breakfast (Reply #158)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:14 PM

159. I hear ya.

Very sad.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:02 PM

226. lincoln freeing slaves....?

not exactly - he was no savior of black people, didn't know any, didn't want to know any. seems to have believed that black people were 'not ready' and would be better off going 'back' to africa. puhleeze. it was economic from start to finish. even new york wanted to side with the south because of shipping cotton and other economic benefits. ownership of human beings - even 3/5 human beings - as a moral issue (even among quakers) was not the main concern. money first, money last, money always. free labor is preferable to cheap labor. hence our current prison 'system'.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:19 PM

31. So your stance is that the civil war was about state rights and not slavery?

Interesting. I've heard that argument somewhere before...

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Response to egduj (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:33 PM

43. Truly, Lincoln was a man of great conscience and morality, and ending slavery was important to him.

But the Civil War was not just about slavery. Objectively, slavery existed for many, many years - and caused untold suffering - before the war. Did people suddenly wake up and discover that slavery was going on? There were underlying national issues, many of them economic, that were triggers. Slavery, and its terrible truths, was a way to win support for the war.

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Response to egduj (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:22 PM

72. I figure it was states' rights and slavery.

Slavery was economically unsustainable and also economically unsustainable in western territories. The south worried about being outvoted in Congress.

You could call a new western state a slave state but there would be very few slaves there.

Secondly, the south was suffering from tariffs on cotton. That was blamed on the north.

On the other side, we read Abe Lincoln's greeting to Harriet Beecher Stowe --"So you're the little lady that started this war."

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Response to egduj (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:34 PM

80. Third grade Virginia history, circa 1958. NT

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Response to egduj (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:25 PM

107. Yes, I have too.

Interesting.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:00 PM

120. No, its' not.

That's a gross blanket statement. Many were abolitionist in their thinking and gave their very lives for their beliefs. Might I suggest a study of a young man named Robert Gould Shaw.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:05 PM

122. You're close in using "fairy tales," but not the way you think. No offense intended, but millions

of us were taught that version of HIS story.

( In 1962 I was taught that by Mr. Boozer, my 8th grade Honors American History teacher, and a Southerner. He knew better. We students argued against him then, because he was wrong, and archived records have since smashed that "cover" argument.

Now, the reason France and England aided the South were economic, yes -- because they wanted central banks to run the U.S. monetary system, while Lincoln didn't. However, their reasons were not part of U.S. history, or told to most Southerners until, over the last 50 years, it's been revealed that "Second Bank of The United States" -- re-established later in 1919 as "The Fed," had been set up as a corporation by European central banks, and was not, in fact, a department of the U.S. government. Lincoln wanted the U.S. to supply its own currency; the South wanted European banks to supply their currency. )

Two historical revisions -- both by Jill Lepore, considered a 1st tier historian -- re-align the original politics of the Southern Confederacy with the reality of U.S. History. One is These Truths -- A History of the United States (2018), and This America (2019). The "story" of America has not been centered on the evidentiary fact of slavery and racism.

Another good history to read along slavery and racism lines is Carrie Gibson's El Norte-- The Epic and Forgotten Story of Hispanic North America (2019) which recovers the true history of Hispanic North Americans' relationship to white expropriation of their land base and even culture.

from These Truths...
The truths of the Confederacy disavowed the truth of the Union. The Confederacy's newly elected vice president...delivered a speech in Savannah in which he made those differences starkly clear.

The ideas behind the Constitution "rested upon the assumption of the equality of the races," Stephens said, but "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea: its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery...is his natural and moral condition.

This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." It would become politically expedient, after the war, for ex-Confederates to insist that the Confederacy was founded on states' rights. But the Confederacy was founded on white supremacy.


The real fairy tales are the ones we've been mistaught through historical framings done by U.S. historians like Woodrow Wilson, Charles Beard, George Bancroft and Frederick Jackson Turner. History and journalism weren't established as professions until 1889, with more limited systems of research and reporting that than exist now, also more framed by and for the "great man" and "great idea" biases that are now challenged "stories."



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Response to ancianita (Reply #122)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:15 PM

124. I will have to check these out.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:36 PM

83. I did not see this statement in OP

or even the reply,, why make this post? Color me confused

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:45 PM

7. Recommended. The US military has not protected our freedom

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

within my lifetime. But to remind people of that fact is to invite the kind of groupthink response that has brought us to this dead-end situation we’re in.

This nostalgic jingoism that passes for patriotism seems to be nearly impossible to overcome.

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Response to Ron Green (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:05 PM

220. "The US military has not protected our freedom within my lifetime."

Except from the Soviet Union? Unless you were born after it fell.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #220)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:25 PM

228. The Red Scare was BS

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Response to samir.g (Reply #228)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:40 PM

229. lol...rigggghttt....those 50,000 tanks were all for fun....

"....after Stalin died, and specifically in the 1960s, that the Soviet Union designed new war plans. These were decidedly offensive nature and envisioned a blitzkrieg-type assault that allowed the Warsaw Pact to conquer most of Western Europe in a matter of days. It amazingly sought to integrate the liberal use of nuclear weapons with the Warsaw Pact’s formidable conventional military might."

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-soviet-unions-insane-plan-crush-nato-battle-13355

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Response to samir.g (Reply #228)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:49 AM

241. Have you ever talked to anybody who lived in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania,

Estonia, Poland etc during the Soviet times? They didn't feel the "Red Scare" was BS at all for some reason...

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:46 PM

8. The effects of climate change will probably do him in.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:46 PM

9. Because of our national state religion

You live in the land of the High Church of Redemptive Violence.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:48 PM

10. I agree

But the military isn't that worshipped. We have suicides & homeless veterans. Thank God for the VA.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:55 PM

15. In reality, it's just lip service. Veterans and not respected. They are viewed as disposable

But don’t they look all handsome in their dress uniforms. Didn’t Trump call people who join the military “chumps”?

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:57 PM

16. I agree it is definitely mostly lip service

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:09 PM

65. I almost hate to admit it, but I have to agree with you there.

What really makes me sick is the way politicians and government officials use them and this false worship of the military to make themselves look patriotic when in reality they could honestly give a shit about any of these service men and women as human beings.

They only care about their own interests being served and once these brave soldiers and service people have outlived their usefulness (and yes, many of them are very brave), these same people who speak so glowingly of them when they are campaigning or giving speeches, cut the funding for the that is so desperately needed to support Veteran health care, housing, and other services - particularly continuing mental health programs.

It makes me want to vomit. Not the service people, but the politicians, propagandists and others in the government who push this bullshit in the first place. It's all a big lie.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #65)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:32 PM

223. So true.

Especially of RWers who make a huge show of supposedly supporting our military, but only even pretend to respect military personal who agree with them politically. Just look at the way Trump and his cult treat Lt. Col. Vindman.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:09 PM

24. The military IS that worshipped.

It's the troops who are not supported.

We have all the money in the world to give the military to send troops into harm's way.

We don't seem to have much for them when they come back.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:11 PM

27. I agree

We are on the same page.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:13 PM

28. Sounds good

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:58 PM

154. RIGHT !!! Support Troops by not feeding MIC and keeping them out of stupid wars and over feeding VA

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:23 PM

165. Spot on..

I wish I could rec. this a million times.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:51 PM

11. I agree


My father fought in WW2 and he was totally against war. In his later life, he spent a lot of time with activism against US involvement in Nicaragua. I think the gov has a file on him for sure, watching his activities. In grade school, during a commencement program, one of the history teachers, Mr Wahlberg, was so into proclaiming the glories of war, and the choir sang some songs about it. My dad asked me at the count of five, to stand up and yell something like, fuck war. He counted five and stood up and yelled it across the whole room, and I was too meek to do it with him.

I knew a Vietnam vet and he was also totally against war.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:53 PM

13. Many people have relatives & friends in the military that

they want to support, more than glorifying military combat and conflicts per se. There are more young people in the military than ever before in my lifetime. Some has to do with the training and security provided by military careers esp. for young people from small town or cities with few other options in the last 20-30 years. College education has become so expensive since Reagan and good jobs with benefits are scarce.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:30 PM

77. I'm sure little 6 year old Amira in Afghanistan

will be comforted in the world to come by the knowledge that her being shredded by an American missile helped give John Smith of North Platte, Nebraska job security and some college money.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 01:54 PM

14. Still the backlash to the perceived ill-treatment

of VN-era GIs.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:04 PM

20. Yup, and now there is no anti-war movement.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:50 PM

56. I think a lot of it has to do with that. Stories told that were not necessarily true has us all

 

being extreme the other side of the coin.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:52 PM

58. PERCEIVED??????

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Returning Vietnam troops were SPAT ON and called "baby killers." There was nothing "perceived" about it.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:58 PM

60. Some did kill babies.

Are you in denial about that, 'Darleen'?

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:38 PM

85. I read a while back that someone did some research, and there are no

contemporaneous stories of those things happening.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:55 PM

96. That is correct. It was pretty much manufactured outrage to punch the hippies and war protesters.

 

And get the militarism back on track.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:06 PM

99. There is an iconic photo of a child running from a napalm

attack. Also My Lai was a documented killing of unarmed civilians.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #99)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:34 PM

111. That girl was injured by Vietnamese napalm from the Vietnamese air force, not Americans.

 

She, others and Vietnamese soldiers were fleeing from an attack by the North and were mistaken by a pilot as the enemy.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:31 PM

109. It's not possible to say it never happened, but I believe it is difficult to find

instances where returning troops were spat upon.

I can't remember the name of the fellow interested in this. I'll look it up later.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:59 AM

184. Um, that's just a Sylvester Stallone quote

from the first Rambo movie "First Blood."

Propaganda.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #184)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:12 PM

192. Yeah, don't take the word of returning vets who had to live it.

 

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Response to pintobean (Reply #192)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:44 PM

196. Yep, an opinion piece (anecdotal) is plenty proof (YAWN)

Vietnam vets got more shit from WW2 and Korea vets than anything.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #196)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:10 PM

213. I'm not too young to remember it.

 

The truth is easily found, if you actually want to be informed.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #213)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:18 PM

215. I am old enough to remember it

and old enough to remember the so-called "Greatest Generation" and their accusations.

But then, that would be anecdotal on my part: and we all know how the "peer-reviewed great minds" of the Internet operate . . .

The truth is easily found, if you actually want to be informed.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #215)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:12 PM

227. Snort

 

You just showed your hand. It's full of bs.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #215)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 06:40 PM

245. Whether or not you want to believe it,

it did happen, I know this from personal experience, not as much as the RW would like us to believe, but it most certainly did happen, mostly from the radical fringe groups.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #184)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:24 PM

205. Yep.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 8, 2019, 03:46 PM

253. Is there really proof of that?

Sounds like the killings of the Belgian / Kuwaiti babies used to madden people into supporting a war.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:00 PM

17. Wars like WWI and WWII were a lot different from the junk we "fight" today. Today, we have too many

Eddie Gallaghers and militia wannabes (Muslims are good targets) attracted to military service, and too many people forced into the military for a job and training.

The biggest problem is that the military armaments is big business in the USA, meaning it won't end anytime soon.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:04 PM

19. Imagine what kind of country this could be without the obscene level of military spending

It could go to infrastructure, education, healthcare. But any mention of cuts to spending is conflated with lack of support to our troops. So we are muzzled. Pretty clever.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:10 PM

25. Agree. As long as the USA wants to bully other nations, it won't change.

And military suppliers/profiteers will take advantage of the easy money. And, we’ll keep training and discharging what amounts to domestic terrorists into society.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:53 PM

93. Yup.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:09 PM

142. Gallagher enlisted under Clinton's presidency was highly decorated and one of our top navy SEALs and

 

a SEAL instructor and medic and I never met any GI or veteran who enlisted in the military because he was a "militia wannabe".

Some men are warriors, it is pretty hard for warriors to be so without joining the military.

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Response to braddy (Reply #142)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:27 PM

146. Screw hired killers. Worthless POS -- Gallagher -- murdered children in some gungho fit of hatred.

Veterans are disproportionately involved in violence, like mass murders, too.

White nationalism remains a problem for the military, poll suggests

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/02/28/white-nationalism-remains-a-problem-for-the-military-poll-shows/

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #146)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:33 PM

148. Gallagher murdered children?

Do you have a link?

Also, it's patently false that Veterans are disproportionately involved in violence, like mass murders.

I would like to see a link to that claim also.

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Response to dware (Reply #148)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:59 PM

155. Before sticking up for murders, I suggest using some search skills.

"One of the members of Gallagher’s unit — Alpha Platoon, SEAL Team 7 — is expected to testify that Gallagher confessed that he “killed four women,” according to Naval Criminal Investigative Service files and legal records provided to Navy Times."

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/22/what-motivated-fellow-seals-to-dime-out-eddie-gallagher/


Snipers testify that Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher shot young girl and old man in Iraq

https://nypost.com/2019/06/21/snipers-testify-that-navy-seal-edward-gallagher-shot-young-girl-and-old-man-in-iraq/


Prosecutors say the Navy SEAL fired indiscriminately into Iraqi crowds. They say he shot an elderly man carting a water jug in Mosul, as well as a girl walking along a riverbank there, the AP reported.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/04/682113654/navy-seal-to-plead-not-guilty-to-war-crimes-including-killing-isis-teen




"Veterans account for 13 percent of the adult population, but more than a third of the adult perpetrators of the 43 worst mass killings since 1984 had been in the United States military. It is clear that, in the etiology of mass killings, military service is an important risk factor."

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/opinion/veterans-and-mass-shootings.html

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-09/the-link-between-military-service-and-mass-gun-violence/10482852




The Facts About Abuse in Military Families

https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/statistics/the-facts-about-abuse-in-military-families


https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/High-risk-of-military-domestic-violence-on-the-5377562.php

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #155)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:06 PM

156. Thank you for the links.

I'll read them carefully, and just for the record, I did not stick up for murderers so you can take that sentence and carefully place it where it belongs, in the false column.

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Response to dware (Reply #148)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:19 PM

216. see a link?

www.google.com

you're welcome.

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Response to Nature Man (Reply #216)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:52 PM

237. Already got several so your

snark is not appreciated.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:06 PM

21. Wow

where did this come from? Sounds like Vlad's aiming to destroy those who are strong enough to protect the rest of us. Pure propaganda! So totally disagree with this post! Try and face a gunman down in the dark who wants to harm you or walk through smoke and fire to rescue your child. Or crawl on your belly, in full military gear, across a desert to see if Saadam has poison weapons that he wants to point at the US! All actual experiences of some of my loved ones. Beefing just to be ornery is Sooooo 60s.

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Response to snowybirdie (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:08 PM

23. But the poison weapons thing was a hoax


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Response to snowybirdie (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:10 PM

26. The poison weapons actually came from the US

Using white phosphorus in Fallujah.

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Response to snowybirdie (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:42 AM

179. The words may sound extreme but there is validity to them.

We absolutely did NOT have to crawl through the desert in military gear to see if Sadaam Hussein had poison weapons. We were told repeatedly that he DID NOT have weapons, nor the ability to even project power outside of Iraq when we decided to invade. Everybody who knew ANYTHING about the region confirmed that there was no threat from Sadaam Hussein to the US, AND that Hussein was more concerned about and fighting against Al Qaeda than plotting anything with them. Those facts and people STILL spouting the falsehoods about needing to send our heroes into Iraq, is exactly why the OP posted.

Criticizing the "Military" and acknowledging that the troops are often sent into combat for something that is not a real threat to the US, is not the same as criticizing the people who join. Granted, the OP did throw some criticism at the troops. There are people who do join because they think, and are told that they are "defending our nation" We likely do need a military to defend the nation, but do we need to spend more than the next 12 countries combined? Have we needed to be at war or in armed conflict all but 16 years of our country's existence?

The problem is that the "domino theory" that led to war in Korea and Vietnam is bogus. We sent soldiers into both countries and created or exacerbated situations that pre-existed our entrance. I am sure that South Korea is grateful we intervened though I am not so sure about Vietnam. Afghanistan, were we have been for 17 years, isn't really any better off or different than when we went in. Iraq is closer to Iran than to us as an allied state.

No one wants to believe that they risked their lives or lost loved ones for something that wasn't worthwhile or worthy of that sacrifice. We do tend to do a great deal of stretching to make that so.

The best way that we can honor the young men and women who join the military is to respect their lives and only risk lives when it is absolutely necessary for the survival of our country. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, and Iraq were not about the survival of our country. This is especially evident when our soldiers come home broken physically and mentally and the same politicians who beat the drum for more weapons and more war, cut funding to programs to help veterans get help and stay off the streets.

My dad fought in Vietnam and I was ready to sign up in my senior year in high school to go out to kick Sadaam Hussein's ass for invading poor little Kuwait and taking babies out of incubators. Why didn't I go? My dad stopped me because he had been in war and had seen things no one should ever see, and he was damn sure going to make it so I didn't do the same for lies.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:07 PM

22. Thank You putting into words what I always think

 

Especially when Fox and the NFL go overboard on their football telecasts with the phony worshipping of the Military. Once these people get out, they’re cast aside by the politicians, like used tissue paper.
I always think back to the 1971 song written by Graham Nash, “Military Madness.”

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:17 PM

29. This is kind of disappointing

 

I understand and agree with some of your points about the military-industrial complex and the needless wars.

With respect to your conversation with your son however, I find that insulting. The military isn’t for everybody, but it DOES provide an avenue to a career, college education, a chance to work closely with people from all over the world and expand horizons. I’m forever grateful for my time in the Navy. Also, we’re not all “cannon fodder”. Many of us do highly technical work in stressful/tough situations with pride and dedication. In fact only about 1% of the military ever experiences combat.

I was an 18 year old black kid from Mississippi and my two options after HS were the military or the local petrochemical plant. 15 years later I have an engineering degree and live on my own farm. That couldn’t have happened without the military.

I’ll also point out that there are bad people in this world. Always have been, always will be. Believe me, I want nothing more than peace on earth, but that peace comes at a price. It’s easy to point at blunders line Iraq or Vietnam and condemn our military, but they actually do a tremendous amount of good. They stood up to Nazi Germany, the USSR, and now China.

I’m in no way encouraging blind worship of our military, but I do think they deserve some respect and your blanket statement that the military “doesn’t do a thing” for you is just plain wrong.

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:23 PM

33. Well said

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:24 PM

35. Great post.

Welcome to DU.

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:26 PM

37. Nazi Germany was no doubt awful

As far as the USSR I can't decide which is worse them or Putin's Russia. It seemed to me the US took the wrong side in a lot of conflicts like arming & training terrorists to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan which led to Afghanistan being taken over by far right religious fundamentalists when women's rights were better when the Afghanistan was aligned with the Soviet Union.

I'd rather live in a country that is neutral when it comes to this Cold War.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:40 PM

149. The USSR was much worse consider this.

 

"In 1989, just before the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union deployed a total of 64 divisions in what was then known as its “Western Theater of Military Operations.” These are the Russian forces that would have been hurled at NATO in an attack on Western Europe. They would have been reinforced by another 700,000 troops from the USSR’s three frontline Warsaw Pact allies, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. In all, more than 100 divisions would have been available for a drive into West Germany and beyond. The six countries committed to defending NATO’s front lines — West Germany, the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Belgium and the Netherlands — meanwhile deployed only 21 or so divisions in Germany. While NATO divisions were generally somewhat larger than their Warsaw Pact counterparts and reinforcement would have been forthcoming from the United States, the disparity along the East-West frontier was nonetheless huge.

Consider the situation today. East Germany no longer exists, while Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and every one of Russia’s other erstwhile Warsaw Pact partners are now members of NATO. So are Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, which in 1989 were parts of the Soviet Union itself."

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Response to braddy (Reply #149)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:42 PM

150. Thank you

Your post was very informative.

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:44 PM

86. Very well said!

I am a proud veteran myself. This thread , while making a few good points, has dismayed me beyond belief. Poor white kid here but if not for my military service I would never have gotten the inner discipline and confidence to make it as well as I have.

I don't feel like I wasted my time in the Army nor do I think we (active duty and veterans alike) are useless and "not needed". One of our more astute Presidents was a lifelong military man. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." Ring a bell? How about this one "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."? One need only to look at our current White House occupant and his lapdogs to see the truth of the latter.

For the first time since I started coming here I feel insulted by a thread.

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:48 PM

90. Well said shipmate

I was a college grad who chose to join the Navy as an officer. I had other options. I can not tell you how proud I am for having served in the US Navy. And it kills me when the filthy rich use the institution to gain wealth and manipulate other nations for their benefit.

I didn't join to support a bunch of liars, cons and filthy rich capitalist. Sometimes, doing good, helping out, helps bad people too.

When we put out the fires onboard ship we saved everyone on that ship. Some of those onboard were evil, some were total idiots, some were, like the XO, from those filthy rich families. And a lot of them were good, honest well meaning people. I didn't get to choose who onboard was going to be saved. Good and bad they all benefited.

That's what joining is about. Yeah there are bad people and evil, filthy rich scum we helped by joining. But that's what a society is all about. Everyone benefits from your work. And yeah these institutions are degenerating into hit men for the filthy rich. From the judiciary to the police to the military all are being corrupted to serve on the side of evil. But that does not mean that the good they did goes away.

I joined at the end of the Vietnam war. My family had a tradition of serving in the Navy. I was the first to be an officer. The Navy I joined, is not the Navy of today. My nephew joined and only did one tour. He opened my eyes.

But what we did by serving our country is not all bad. We helped the good too. When the north fought against the oligarchs of the South, they helped everyone. Yes, some with particular economic interests made out but they helped the slaves get their freedom too.

I don't think vets need to be worshipped. That is silly and makes me feel uncomfortable when people do it. But the military is not your enemy. It's the corruption of it that is.



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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:07 PM

123. Crap.

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Responded to wrong person

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:31 PM

147. You did risk your life though

So the good that came is dependent on surviving.

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Response to GanjaGrower (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 04:38 PM

244. Welcome to DU, GG. ❤ nt

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:18 PM

30. Our military-industrial complex is just a big economic feeding trough

Eisenhower predicted it and he was right of course. America has gone overboard on everything from worshipping service members for what has become just a big jobs program (less than 1 percent actually do time in combat zones) to giving the Pentagon moeny for programs it doesn't even want to feed companies back home in their representatives districts or to appear patriotic to the rubes.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:19 PM

70. Brad

You hit the nail right on it's big fat pork head...............

Eisenhower fought in the field, and spent time at the top of politics.......he knew exactly what the story was after WWII. I try not to even think about the soldiers and sailors and airmen and their families, who after WWII gave their lives, for not much more of a reason than to line the pockets of Defense Suppliers, their executives, and the portfolios of their stock holders.......

Look at the TRUE cost of the invasion of IRAQ. I remember Rumsfeld saying it will only cost a few billion, be over with in three days, and the oil will repay the U.S. for all of our costs.
Really, most people I knew found that preposterous and laughable...
Where are we today? Still there decades letter, and most estimates around 2-3 TRILLION dollars?????

On a side note: Of course the politicians got their share to. Take rumsfeld......He bought millions of dollars of the Drug company that makes Cipro. Three days later, he declared that the U.S. was going to stockpile Cipro all over the nation because of the threat of biological weapons being used on our country........
Then, three days after he declared that, he cashed out of that stock netting millions.......and it goes on all the time, with the SEC saying absolutely nothing about "Insider Trading".......They spend their time going after women like Martha for some ridiculously small amount and sending her to prison. I guess the big shot white boys showed her..........

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:00 PM

119. Eisenhower never saw combat and Rumsfeld went directly from chairman of Gilead to Bush's admin.

 

Snopes--Rumsfeld was a member of Gilead’s board of directors between 1988 and 2001, and he was its chairman from 1997 until he joined President George W. Bush’s cabinet as Secretary of Defense in 2001

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Response to braddy (Reply #119)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:06 PM

157. My point exactly on Eisenhower

He was in the group at the top of the military doing all the planning and buying of all the massive amount of arms that would be needed to implement the useless wars.......

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:52 PM

153. Thanks

Good points you made. Wish more knew this.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:22 PM

32. I am thankful for our men and women who have served, are serving, and will serve.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:23 PM

34. Everything in our lives here on Earth is a racket to get MONEY.

Greed is the root, just that simple.

Military is required because of all of this greed.

It's another racket, more for threat to keep sovereignty than anything?

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:21 PM

163. Agree for the most part

We have these unbelievable wealthy people.....Facebook founder, Amazon founder, Microsoft founder, and so on and so on. People talk about the incredible money they give to charities and for good causes.
Compare the amounts they give vs the amount they are worth and the amount they give is pocket change to them at best. I mean really. If you are worth North of 50 Billion dollars what the hell do you need that much for?????? The gazillionaires all making investments with that money, and they couldn't possibly think of ways just to spend the investment income, let alone the principal.......
so when you hear about Billy Boy Gates, or any of the others giving ten million to a charity, laugh like I do..........They made a thousand times their charitable donations off the Trump/Republicans tax cuts this last time around........

Even Warren Buffet I think a few years back said his housekeeper paid more in taxes than he did and that he wanted to pay more taxes to be fair.........Of course I thought.....write a big check on top of your taxes due and send it to the government. Don't hold back Warren, I'm sure they will accept it graciously......

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:24 PM

36. I think many Americans bow and scrape to the military

Because they feel guilty that they and their kids don’t have to go.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:26 PM

38. Because Republicans made Military Service equal to the highest form of patriotism

after World War 2

Democrats that weren't as gung ho on the military were bashed as being soft on defense and not patriotic. And, ever since, Democrats have been going over the top on military support in order to not get bashed by Republicans and the media.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:56 PM

97. Hey, Loki!

That was certainly a worthy contribution to the discussion.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:32 PM

40. When I joined the Army,

way back in the 70s, it was just what we did. It seemed normal. It was post Vietnam, I was lucky enough to never have to face any kind of weapons pointed at me. It truly was a different time.
Having read your post and told my history, DreamGirl, I can understand your feelings about the military complex now. Please understand though. The military complex is made up of thousands,and more individuals who do care about your freedom and rights. The things we see in the news is only the upper ranks talking. I served my country for my beliefs, and there are so many today doing the same thing.
I need no gratitude, in fact,it makes me uncomfortable to receive any. I have trouble accepting respect for a decision I made 40+ years ago. I chuckle as maybe this was the only good decision I made back then.
Point being, the noise you hear is the people who need to be heard. Believe there are 10s of thousands, probably 100s of thousands soldiers who quietly protect us all each day. And do it because they do give 2 shits about you and every other American. The noise is just the noise. I am so sorry you feel as you do.

Koz

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Response to kozar (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:47 PM

52. ....

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:33 PM

41. Ignorant of history much? If it wasn't for our military, America wouldn't exist

War has existed from the dawn of time, oh but wait, I bet u can fix all that, LMAO

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Response to Baclava (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:37 PM

48. "If it wasn't for our military, America wouldn't exist"

Horrifying thought..especially when applied to all of human history...

War has existed from the dawn of time

That should tell you/all of us, something deeper than it appears.

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Response to Baclava (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:40 PM

51. Thank you.

Obviously the OP could benefit from a brush up on history.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:33 PM

42. Honour the PERSON. Nobody joins military to "serve" corporations; so, yes we do HONOUR service


People do join the military often for personal advancement, which is okay.

Whatever the role corporations play in using or utilizing the military for their goals (said role is large and goals are large), if a person wants to serve a corporation, they join a corporation.

So while it is wise counsel to avoid "rich man's wars", it is still honourable to join the military. And it is a risk to life and limb, even in training.

And for society it is wise to honour those who have served, unless there is information that they have not been honourable. I do not honour Oliver North, for example.

HONOUR the PERSON, not the ROLE.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:34 PM

44. Good post. I think your premise about WAR is spot on. And runs MUCH deeper than your

words would seem to indicate on the surface.

"As a young girl when I learned about war, I was horrified and couldn’t believe there could be such a thing !"

It is insanity.. literally 'sleeping' men;' Who are totally unaware of their own existence.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:34 PM

45. Our military is necessary in a dangerous world with bad actors

The problem is that our country has too often been a bad actor. Our actions in Vietnam and the 2003 invasion of Iraq are war crimes which had devastating consequences for the local populations, with the only benefit accruing to the enrichment of the military industrial complex.

But that doesn't mean the young men & women who enlisted in the wake of 9/11 should be lumped together with the lying corrupt politicians who abused the power of their office.

As in all things, one brush does not accurately paint all the rank and file in our military services. Many sincerely believe in the value of their service, knowing full well they might make the ultimate sacrifice in a mission far above their pay grade to judge.

They at least deserve our consideration and respect. The best thing we can do as responsible citizens is to vote for leaders who will not squander their lives for a pack of lies crafted to advance political careers and the profits of death merchants.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:34 PM

46. Agree. We started being in a state of awe

after 9/11. Americans tend to overreact when something happens. The problem is the overreaction becomes embedded and is hard to shake off. I knew we were in for a long haul when Bush’s bullhorn made him a hero. We did the same with Guilliani. All of a sudden he became America’s mayor. His sole contribution, he was the current mayor of NYC. Probably was always corrupt. Guess we like to manufacture heroes.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:38 PM

49. oh Jesus

 

Christ. As a 3rd generation veteran, we rally behind the troops- not the "complex" or the President. We rally because these men and women, of all political backgrounds, sacrifice to service or country - the complex or administration they serve they have no control over. Some people join because the "lack" options but people work at Costco or at restaurants because they lack options. I can assure you i worked with brilliant people. I worked with 2 Yale grads. I worked with doctors, dentists, fucking people with PhD's.... Your comment is quite insulting but that's ok- these men and women sacrifice for uninformed folks too. Our military academies are more selective than Ivy League schools. So, we are not worshiping war or Defense contractors or the President. We are supporting the young men and women who, throughout history, were not to cowardly to wear the uniform when asked or when they volunteer. Excuse me while I go visit a buddy who, with an engineering degree from USC, is home from Germany for a week. I'll ask him if he had an "options".

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Response to evertonfc (Reply #49)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:31 AM

188. "we rally behind the troops"

Would you agree that sometimes the best thing we can do to support the troops is to protest against the mission they are given?

As a case in point, I attended the protest in our nation's capitol 4 days before GW Bush launched "Shock and Awe" in Iraq. As we were marching, a small group of counter-protesters were chanting "Support our troops, support our troops!" I joined their chant but changed it to "Support our troops, bring them home!" Others joined me, and very quickly we drowned them out.

Please see post #45 in this thread for my response to the OP.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:48 PM

53. I think the marketing campaign to elevate the military started with Vietnam

Most of the 20th century war was seen as a terrible thing. My father went to college on the GI Bill after WWII, and even then people were pretty tired of involvement with the Korean War.

My generation fought against the draft, obtained the 18 year-old vote, and shut down the Vietnam war. (I was 1A in the draft, but my birthday wasn't picked after I maxed out the college deferment.).

In the 60s, the MIC could see their profit machine days were ending, so they geared up the "military is good" theme - flag waving at ball games, TV commercials, etc. That publicity machine is still going full blast.

I have two nephews who joined the military recently (one Navy, one Army). They have been drinking the cool-aid.

I'd love to see all advertising dollars that glorify the military gone. You can have Veterans Day, Memorial Day, etc., but the false narrative that there are armies at our gates is nothing but a joke.

The real enemies are the republican traitors who open the door to our elections.

Wouldn't it be nice to see the military budget spent on registering votes, honoring voters, and maintaining fair elections!

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:48 PM

54. I have evolved into feeling the same as you. I agree.

 

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:48 PM

55. You're beating the wrong horse

My husband died last year from lung cancer caused by exposure to Agent Orange. I don't blame the military, I blame the government and the men who profited from it.

Joe had NO choice in the matter and neither did thousands of other young men. He dropped out of school for one quarter to make some money and got a notice to report for his physical. They never let him go home to pack a toothbrush or call his parents to let them know what happened. They passed him and put him on the transport to boot camp.

Let's be clear on this. It is NOT THE MILITARY that decides where they are going to fight it is (now anyway) the President. Congress is supposed to be the body that declares war but they abrogated their duties a long time back.

So rather than diss the organization who's sole purpose is to guard our country and its citizens, how about putting the anger and blame right smack where it belongs.

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:31 PM

78. Well stated and excellent point. . . . nt

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Response to DarleenMB (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:32 PM

110. I'm not dissing them. At all. Wat I'm dissing is the military worship I see

Everywhere. War is insane.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:51 PM

57. Also, since higher education is expensive, many people join the military for college funding

I agree with you. We need to rethink the blind worship of military service in the US.
The indoctrination begins early at sporting events where armed forces members are thanked publicly, but others doing essential work are overlooked.
There are many brave and principled people serving in the military, but one can also serve one's country in many ways.
The impeachment hearings showed testimony from members of the US foreign service who, in general, have much higher levels of achievement than the average military service person and many, like Marie Yovanovitch, serve in dangerous areas of the world.
Public school teachers perform much more valuable service to their communities and to the nation.
Civil servants...at all levels federal, state, local ... perform essential service to society and should be thanked for doing so when they do their jobs well.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:56 PM

59. A counterpoint:

Dulce et Decorum Est

BY WILFRED OWEN


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

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Response to volstork (Reply #59)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:20 PM

161. I'd be surprised if the OP knows from what war that poem came.

I have a book of those poems, from that war.

A true testament to the futility of war.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:03 PM

61. Soldiers don't get to choose which wars they get to fight.

I joined to serve my country, as my father had done in his 20 plus years in the Army. I enlisted in 1985, earned my commission as a 2LT in 1987 and served 5 years as a field artillery officer. The Soviet Union was still our main enemy at that time and I took my duties in a serious and professional manner. While I didn't always agree with how troops were used abroad, I believed then, and still do, that we need to have dedicated military personnel who understand the rigors and negative consequences of war and who use force in just war and according to the laws of warfare and who take seriously the responsibilities of the profession of arms.

I can also say that I am uncomfortable with the insincere labeling of all military people as "heroes" and treating all veterans as though they are the epitome of American patriots. I believe that most of our military people are proud to have serve as best they can and don't need to be called "heroes" or acknowledged at every public even they attend (e.g., football games). While they may not crave constant thanks and adulation, I believe they also don't want their sacrifices to be forgotten. As of now, many of our serving military have completed 5 or more deployments to combat zones and some of them bear wounds, physical and psychological. Their families also carry a burden of having a father, mother, sister, or brother away from home and at risk.

I am grateful that we have an all-volunteer military where each member has chosen to serve. And because our military represents a small fraction of our society, they take on a great burden during times of war. Be grateful that our nation doesn't have to resort to the draft again.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:28 PM

75. I don't want my tax dollars to go to fighting

unnecessary wars, i.e., wars that are not directly self-defense, using a volunteer military. There are better ways to put people to work for the benefit of our and other nations.

I believe we have the volunteer personnel we have currently in our military agencies largely because the benefits (wages, health care, training/education, retirement) of enlistment outweigh benefits available to many of these other people via non-defense employment. Why? Because we wittingly and unwittingly have waged a domestic war on labor for the past 40-plus years. Return to a draft based military and we’ll all see a much different and much better attitude toward wars we engage in.

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Response to KPN (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:45 PM

87. This is more a critique of the Presidency than of the military

I agree about reducing defense spending. We ought to be much more conservative in how we use our military abroad. For better or worse, though, we made obligations after WWII that commit us to a leading role. Plus there have been moral grounds such as genocide in Rwanda, Kosovo, etc. that haven't directly threatened our domestic safety but surely call for armed intervention, which we did in the latter case but not in the former.

I agree also that the GOP has waged war against wage labor in this country, thought that's hardly the fault of the military. As for re-instituting the draft, I doubt that most voters would be thrilled with this.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #87)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:36 PM

112. Yes. It's a critique of how and why we use our military

for sure — which rests squarely on the Commander in Chief as well, in part, on Congress. But it also is a critique of our overall political system and Congress which have created an environment in which the best option for many is to enlist voluntarily in the military in order to get ahead.

It is not a criticism of any enlisted of former military people whatsoever.

I also think this whole OP was the same.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)


Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:07 PM

64. I don't know about this worship shit....

but this dumb draftee has respect for the active duty military personal I've met.

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #64)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:01 AM

185. Draftees Are A Different Matter, Buzz

Being forced to choose between military service, prison, or expatriation was grossly unjust.
I do have respect for anybody who was a draftee. No data, but I'd guess a good % of them would not have voluntarily gone in.
The worship thing, however, is a different issue. I perceive it the same way as the OP. The military has been voluntary for >40 years, so for whatever the reasons, that whole class of vets chose that occupation. The attempt to sell "fighting for our freedoms" is semantic nonsense.
I don't disrespect any vets, but I don't consider their choice automatically more noble or valuable than many, many other choices. But, to repeat, draftees are a special circumstance

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #185)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:22 PM

219. The draftee served an IMPORTANT role, and it's something that is mostly missing in today's military

"Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price of admission." - Colonel Hackworth, About Face

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #219)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 08:10 AM

238. No Argument

Helps amplify my point that they're a different subject.
Nice find for that quote.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #238)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 03:32 PM

243. Fast froward a few years and we learn us dumb veterans of the Army of the United States (AUS)....

added no value, no advantage, to the armed services

Rumsfeld said draftees "were sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months and then went out, adding no value, no advantage really, to the United States Armed Services over any sustained period of time, because (of) the churning that took place -- it took an enormous amount of effort in terms of training and then they were gone."



We never put much stock in any of this hero worship shit, but is it asking to much to desire a little respect rather than being tossed on the dung heap?

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #243)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 08:38 AM

246. Consider The Source, Buzz

It was Rumsfeld! Did you really expect better from that tool?

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:10 PM

66. Korea ... we lost that war. Vietnam ... we lost that war.

Why were we there? Were Americans DRAFTED to participate?
Did innocent Americans (drafted) die in those wars?
I was drafted for Vietnam and I served in the infantry, all of my
twentieth year on this planet (from 67 to 69). My enlisted supervisors
were primarily black or tan. My officers were primarily white.
When I got out I was tagged a dumb-ass for serving. I could not
join a veterans club because I refused to sign an entry form that
said "I believe in God". I was never required to claim anything religious
while I served. I am a none (none of the above on those faith matters).
I have children and grandchildren serving right now. I am ashamed
of our actions since WII. I concur with Dream Girl.

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Response to erlewyne (Reply #66)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:49 PM

116. Our Vietnam war dead were 70% volunteers, our WWII war dead were 70% draftees.

 

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Response to braddy (Reply #116)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:18 PM

126. I did not know that

I volunteered for Vietnam. Actually I volunteered for the draft
and the ladies at the draft board were thankful.

I was broke, hated college (it was easier than high school
because I took college prep and loved geometry and physics.

I was broke so, what the hell, I volunteered ... for everything.
I was Engineers O.C.S.

My problem was, "why are we in Vietnam?

I got sent to Ft. Dix, I never heard of Ft. Dix. There I met all
these Yankees from the Bronks. They called me "Okie". These
recruits were college drop outs, just like me.

But, I would have volunteered for WWII. Not Vietnam, not Korea,
not Iraq, not Afghanistan ... this is all in retrorespect.

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Response to erlewyne (Reply #126)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:25 PM

128. Hardly anyone knows that because the media paints Vietnam as a disgruntled, loser, draftee war,

 

rather than a war fought by highly skilled American warriors, people also don't know that the Marines drafted for Vietnam as they did for Korea and WWII.

Personally I enlisted in the Army after I beat the draft and won a permanent deferment (I didn't believe in the draft at that time).

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Response to braddy (Reply #128)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:51 PM

138. What does it matter if they were highly skilled warriors


Many soldiers and society knew it was a wrong war. And we didn't win. The war was continued by hiding the fact we were losing from the American public. Even just having 25% as draftees, that meant people from every walk of life were drafted, and not just people who needed a job. That contributed to the growing "disgruntalism". Without a draft, it is much easier to get into wars without the public giving pushback against it.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #138)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:02 PM

141. I didn't hear complaints about Vietnam in the Army, except about how we were fighting it.

 

Our military men wanted to fight a real war to defeat the enemy like we did in WWII, instead we were fighting some kind of deadly status quo holding action and avoiding victory and a quick end to the war.

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Response to braddy (Reply #141)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:06 PM

168. your post is confusing

I was there.

We had no business in Vietnam. It was about OIL. We were killed
for greed.

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Response to erlewyne (Reply #66)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:11 PM

222. "Korea ... we lost that war" If we had lost that war N Korea would have owned the whole country.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:16 PM

68. I considered it an honor to serve my nation on active military duty for 20 years.

Following that, I served another 21 years working for DOD civil service in direct support of USAF and Navy military personnel all over the world. If you haven't served, then you will never understand how important it was to those who do/did. My only regret is that I can't do it all over again. Sorry you feel I didn't have other options. I tuned down a full four year no cost education offer at the University of Tennessee but felt serving was more important. I was not wrong.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:16 PM

69. This seems to be a hot topic post.

I have read all replies to this OP, even put my 2 cents in. Im not going to dissect each reply,whether it be a reaction or belief. But 1 thing that IS NOT in any replies,jumps at me. Not one reply, even mine in retrospect, acknowledged a Mother talking to and protect her son. I am a Father, my protection of my children will always come first instinctively, Maybe DreamGirl didn't use the exact words to make us all happy.
I read the OP as a Mother who did not want her son in danger, Today her son has a choice to join or not. back in my day a lot of young men got drafted and their Mothers did not have a choice.
The one thing I have learned in my 60 years on this rock,, never question a Mother's love.

Koz

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Response to kozar (Reply #69)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:24 PM

74. I appreciated that point of her post

There are certainly opportunities for advancement but many come home from combat struggling to come out of a dark hole if their injuries aren't worse. People should think very carefully about joining.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:29 PM

76. 100% agree n/t

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:21 PM

71. Clever.


Unrec.

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Response to orangecrush (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:28 PM

129. The post before yours touched on a key point.

I reached 18 years old just as a peace deal for Vietnam was announced, but there still was fighting there. One of my older brothers had fought in Vietnam as a Marine, none of us knew it then, but that would cost him his life as a relatively young man.

I remember driving to the local post office after I turned 18 to fill out a selective service card that would result in my name being in the draft. I was fully licensed to drive and my mom didn't need to come to the post office with me, but she did. I was a good student and in my red county that meant that military recruiters got my name and home address, they came to give me their spiels about their branch, Navy, Army, Air Force, my mom chased all their asses away, even threatening the persistent Army guy, who had seen my oldest brothers paratrooper photo on my parents' tv. I remember my mom being on edge after my name went in, she wanted me to go to college, she already had two sons that were drafted into the military, one Army, one Marines, she knew moms whose sons came home in a coffin, she knew that the war that did that to them was still going on, she knew that she had two other sons who were drafted but failed their physicals, she knew that she now had a healthy son who likely would pass the physical then go on to an unknown, she knew that we were dirt poor and that I could not get a deferment or run off to Canada. The letter from the selective service came back, I was at school so my mom was the first to see it in the mailbox, but she didn't open it for some reason. I opened the letter and found that I had pulled a high draft number and therefore didn't need to report, but I had to keep my draft card in case kids with my number level were needed, I kept that card for several years after the draft had ended. My mom had finally beat luck, she finally had a son who didn't get drafted, I went to college like she wanted and ultimately got an engineering degree.

Your post is disrespectful to the OP as a Mom, she has a connection to her child that you simply have no insight into.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:24 PM

73. General Smedley Butler's book, "War Is a Racket."

That sums it all for me.

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Response to 3Hotdogs (Reply #73)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:01 PM

197. So glad to see this. Sad to see no response.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:31 PM

79. How old will he have to be before he's allowed to think for himself?

Full disclosure: I'm a veteran. I enlisted because I was about to be drafted anyway.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #79)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:22 PM

106. I would say about 5-7 years

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:35 PM

81. I'm OK thanking our service members for their service...

but I agree with your larger point.

The anti-communism wars of the 50's thru the 70's were replaced by Russo US proxy wars, desire to control oil resources, and a means to "fight" against expansion of the influence of Muslims in Western Society.

Not a single one of these goals is worthy of the bloodshed we've experienced.

Imagine if we put those trillions of military dollars into our infrastructure, research, the education of our work force, and building bridges to people who don't know us very well.

I think the world would be a much better place.

Worshipping the military is a recipe for disaster.

Appreciating those whose dream it is to serve their country though, is OK by me.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #81)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:19 PM

160. "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

 

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:35 PM

82. After Vietnam, veterans were treated badly

I also don't really understand the situation with the military. After Vietnam, veterans were not treated well and many were ashamed of their service there. Now, they are too proud. I see old men wearing Vietnam veterans hats and I am amazed. Since I lived through the time (but did not reach draft age during it), I clearly remember what the attitude was toward the war and veterans. The war was considered immoral and veterans were not honored for serving in it. The backlash has now made anybody wearing a military uniform a "hero" and "thank you for your service." It's nuts, really. Just as there was no honor in killing Vietnamese, there was no honor in killing Iraqi's either. It is very puzzling to me, and I think people fall into a trap about uniforms. Just putting one on does not make anything one does right and good for America. Many times soldiers are pawns in things they do not understand. And for any military operation there are many, many that cook food, drive trucks, and push paper. Are they "heroes" for doing so? Just my two cents/

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Response to extvbroadcaster (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:55 PM

95. The truck drivers are exposed

92G is a relatively safe MOS but it is mostly third country nationals that do the cooking in war zone bases.

88M is a very dangerous MOS especially in an era of roadside bombs.I wouldn't call anyone a hero unless they did a heroic act like diving on a grenade to save others but I acknowledge the danger.

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Response to extvbroadcaster (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:04 PM

98. Some are and some are not

When you decide to join and make sacrifices to help out, you don't get to kick out the scum and say only the good people are going to benefit from my efforts. Everyone benefits good and bad.

Yeah, I remember how Vietnam vets were treated. But I joined anyway. I joined and I never ever committed a war crime or tortured or abused subordinates or prisoners.

What we have today and in Vietnam was/is the corruption of our institutions and not just the corruption of the military. But it doesn't have to stay that way. Capitalism is rotting America and the military isn't immune.

But to discount everything every vet has done because the military is vulnerable to corruption is to discount how society works.

When the North fought against the slave owning oligarchs of the South, yeah some economic interests were served. But they also helped to free the slaves.

Most times in life you can choose to help or Not help, but you don't get to choose who you help. It's usually all or none. So yeah, some filthy rich scum were helped but so were some really good people.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:52 PM

91. Post-Vietnam efforts by the Reagan-Bush era revanchists. 9/11 and the "War on Terror" certainly made

 

things worse.

Now we have the ultimate cruel Asshole-In-Chief proudly pardoning war criminals and “loosening the rules of engagement” (read: giving extra permission for military personnel to kill civilians as long as it’s only “collateral damage.”).

Don’t ya just LOVE it?

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 03:54 PM

94. Complete agreement! Thanks for sharing those thoughts...muy bien dicho!

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:13 PM

101. Because they are willing to die to protect and defend the Constitution

Talk is cheap, they are willing to and are called to put their life on the line not just in war but for humanitarian missions also....

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #101)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:56 PM

118. So they say. And yes, talk is cheap.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:18 PM

104. I agree with you 100%.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:20 PM

105. The US was founded by a war,

and has been at war almost continuously since that founding.

War is power projection that serves the interests of the rich.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:29 PM

108. she stated she was talking to her

11 yo son! ELEVEN!! can we slow down all the vet talk and knee jerk responses and first READ the OP? Cripes, I do not agree with her 100% , but on this site we are Dems.. we are supposed to understand how to listen and get both sides. She was protecting her son. And for the record, I am a 60 yo white male in Tn with a 31 yo hcp daughter... this is a perfect example of what the Rethugs want,,we are fighting among ourselves!!!! Read the OP please.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:37 PM

113. I agree Dream Girl.

Some that have enlisted here are seeing this a one or the other thing. Its not that members of the military should not be applauded, even if just for the fact that IF there were a battle that was necessary to defend ourselves or our allies, these people are willing to put themselves on the front lines.

Its more the degree of that applause. Even if one ranks their respect of others paid jobs and puts working in the military as the #1 respected job. Another overused and disingenuous term is "service" which is also used to hold up the mantle of Hero. It is not service, its being paid for doing a hazardous job. Yes it is to directly protect the country. But can't you say that many many jobs also protect the country in an indirect way? Of course police, firefighters jobs are hazardous. What about high steel workers? Oil rig workers? And mental hazards, which is prevalent in the armed forces as well. Inner city teachers have to deal with a lot. Social workers working with mentally ill, sometimes violent, individuals. Don't all of these and many more worker jobs, also work to defend the democracy? Isn't their work also important for a free and civilized society? And they face these hazards day in and day out, not just if there is a war declared.

I have no problem with celebrating that extra level of danger for that job that they signed off on for military workers, but its a question of just how much less is the sacrifice of others who work for the betterment of the country, that they do not also deserve to be celebrated? How much more does the armed forces deserve? Why are they elevated up to "Hero", when you never hear that about, say, teachers?

But I'll also say there are many factors. Some families are centered around the military, with almost all of their ancestors also a part of it. So there are family pressures too. Add to that the educational and monetary rewards which is very inviting for poor folks of all races, living in economically depressed areas. (It would be better to spend some of the MIC money on these depressed areas).

I also think the role of ex-generals who are invested in the MIC is obscene. They are the lobbyists, and have a lot of credibility because they are "heros". Many have millions of dollars on the line which will grow exponentially if there are more wars. They had on these now-shills for the MIC were all you saw on TV being interviewed during the build up to the Iraq war. (As Donahue was being fired).

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:40 PM

114. My father, a WWII veteran

had pretty much that same talk with me during the Viet Nam war. Selective Service passed on me, so it never became a decision I had to make.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:45 PM

115. It was the same for me when I was a little girl

And I’ve never been able to shake that feeling of surreality about wars.

When I see stories of wounded veterans with destroyed lives or stories of families being torn apart by PTSD or homeless veterans I wonder how the hell they never saw this coming.

In the run up to wars when everyone is cheerleading and joyfully beating the war drums, it makes me feel confused as to why the bleeding scars of the last war are completely forgotten. And every single time soldiers are treated like gods unless they’re the walking wounded from the last war. They’re glorified and the government promises them they’ll be taken care of and just like Lucy jerking the football away they lie and lie and lie, and every time soldiers get hurt they are pushed aside.

It’s just surreal.

I told my son he would have to go over my dead body too way back during the first Gulf War.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #115)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:43 AM

182. Good for YOU!!!!!!

Yes, the young are sent to war to make the world safe for international corporations and their resource grabs. My brother in law died in Vietnam for a lie in 1967 and our family has been anti war activists ever since. The PR campaign that glorifies war has shiny medals and uniforms and slogans to get kids sucked into the military. It is our sacred cow. Tell your sons, never ever volunteer!!!! John died in Vietnam after being bullied by his parents into going along with the draft. This tore our family apart after he died. I am heartened that many at DU see through the sham of the glorification of our military.

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Response to McKim (Reply #182)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:19 PM

201. Promoting peace is really a full time job

People think that the lack of war is peace, but that’s not the case, as Jimmy Carter has said again and again, we must actively work for and promote peace. We should have a Department of Peace in our government. It would make a huge difference!

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 04:54 PM

117. Worship? No. Respect? Yes.

First and foremost, it is a cold, cruel, dangerous world outside the comfy confines of American power and that of our allies. Spend some time in, say, central Africa, central America, parts of south Asia and enumerable other places and failed states, and one becomes well aware of the anomaly of our bubble of protection. A bubble most of us don't even notice. A rough, modern analog of Pax Romana. That peace allowed the stability for growth and a flowering of civilization, along with, unfortunately, excesses analogous today. We can argue for days about the evils of imperial expansion and I would agree with you, but still there was peace an growth within the imperial bubble.

Though the majority of US wars were for wrong headed reasons and could and should have been avoided, not all wars are like that. And our military doesn't exist simply for those wrongheaded reasons. The rise of fascism comes quickly to mind. The military industrial complex and wars for corporate greed, as evil as they are at times, exist as parasites on the body of a much greater truth. A truth we lose sight of in our comfy bubble. So, lets not dispute that truth when we show our disdain for the parasites. Humans are tribal, prone to violence and are dangerous. We've been dealing with that fact with city walls and frontiers since the neolithic and I see no change in the foreseeable future.

Thus, for the protection that they provide, at the risk of their very lives, the least we comfy folks can do is show them a little respect. Don't worship, by any means. They're still human and subject to all our foibles. But they do put their butts on the line when many of use refuse to...yet love our comfy bubble all the same.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:04 PM

121. Military service was normal for generations of men, for instance 10 million boomers served, since

 

today hardly anyone serves, the people who avoid military service seem to be trying to make up for it by making a big deal about veterans and GIs.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:16 PM

125. It seems like most cultures have a deep respect for their warriors...


...a respect above and beyond regular good people.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:25 PM

127. usually comes from people who have no idea what the military is about, just saying

you can say the same about police, firemen, whoever.

If you don't think military protects you, find out what people who escape wars when govts lack a military to protect them would say to that.

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #127)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:34 PM

134. My point is the undue worship we are expected to pay. Those in the military are entitled

To the same level of respect due to any other public servant who is doing a job. I have no idea wat these jobs entail. They are not automatically worthy of being called “heroes” unless they do something heroic, not by virtue of there decision to join the military.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:30 PM

130. by Wolfgang Borchert


This poem was written in 1947 a few days before Borchert died at the age of 26. The following is an adaptation of the German version, first prepared by youth participants at the vigil for peace and justice at the WCC Assembly in Vancouver in 1983.

You. Man at the machine and man in the workshop. If tomorrow they tell you you are to make no more water-pipes and saucepans but are to make steel helmets and machine-guns, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

You. Woman at the counter and woman in the office. If tomorrow they tell you you are to fill shells and assemble telescopic sights for snipers' rifles, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

You. Research worker in the laboratory. If tomorrow they tell you you are to invent a new death for the old life, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

You. Priest in the pulpit. If tomorrow they tell you you are to bless murder and declare war holy, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

You. Pilot in your aeroplane. If tomorrow they tell you you are to
carry bombs over the cities, then there's only one thing to do: Say NO!

You. Man of the village and man of the town. If tomorrow they come and give you your call-up papers, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

You. Mother in Normandy and mother in the Ukraine, mother in Vancouver and in London, you on the Hwangho and on the Mississippi, you in Naples and Hamburg and Cairo and Oslo - mothers in all parts of the earth, mothers of the world, if tomorrow they tell you you are to bear new soldiers for new battles, then there's only one thing to do:

Say NO!

For if you do not say NO - if YOU do not say no - mothers, then: then!

In the bustling hazy harbour towns the big ships will fall silent as corpses against the dead deserted quay walls, their once shimmering bodies overgrown with seaweed and barnacles, smelling of graveyards and rotten fish.

The trams will lie like senseless glass-eyed cages beside the twisted steel skeleton of wires and track.

The sunny juicy vine will rot on decaying hillsides, rice will dry in the withered earth, potatoes will freeze in the unploughed land and cows will stick their death-still legs into the air like overturned chairs.

In the fields beside rusted ploughs the corn will be flattened like a beaten army.

Then the last human creature, with mangled entrails and infected lungs, will wander around, unanswered and lonely, under the poisonous glowing sun, among the immense mass graves and devastated cities.

The last human creature, withered, mad, cursing, accusing - and the terrible accusation: WHY?

will die unheard on the plains, drift through the ruins, seep into the rubble of churches, fall into pools of blood, unheard, unanswered,

the last animal scream of the last human animal -

All this will happen tomorrow, tomorrow, perhaps, perhaps even tonight, perhaps tonight, if - if -

You do not say NO.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:31 PM

131. I don't know why you do. I don't.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:32 PM

132. This is a good question because the answer says everything about yourself.

 

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:41 PM

135. General Smedley Butler's writings should be mandatory reading.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #135)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:02 PM

198. Or listening. It is so disappointing to see his words are still not heeded.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:45 PM

136. False premise, divide and conquer bullshit

Reminds me of the other recent “story” of the Bad Disabled Vet and parking at Home Depot.

More holes than Albert Hall.....

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Response to Baked Potato (Reply #136)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:08 AM

178. +1

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 05:47 PM

137. From the perspective of this former soldier,

I disagree. There are those who joined in order to protect this country and the people who live here. I was one of them. I’m not wanting your support, pity, glorification, or hate. You do you. I’ve already done what I intended and do not need any vindication or vilification.

A little about me:

We are at the opposite ends of the demographic spectrum. I’m a 37 year old white male. I grew up in Appalachia in a poor family. I am the youngest of four boys. I never planned on joining the Army. As a matter of fact, I started working at 16, met my wife at 18, and was married shortly after. It wasn’t long till she was pregnant and we struggled to do our best at life everyday. After she had carried our child for seven months, my wife went into kidney failure. This forced the doctors to perform a C-section, and we welcomed our son into the world. Due to the complications of his early birth, he died in my arms 4 1/2 months later. My wife was on dialysis 3 days a week, until she had a stroke. A year later, she received a kidney transplant but the damage had already been done. Physically, mentally, psychologically, we were both destroyed. She left me.

Why I joined:

After living alone for a while, one day, I decided it didn’t seem fair that people were serving in a war, away from their kids and family, while I did nothing except for things that benefited me. I was driving a semi at the time and that same week, another truck driver I didn’t know, fell asleep while driving with the cruise control on. He woke up a split second before rear ending me. His semi made it all the way to my passenger side mirror before he overturned. A moment later, his still sliding truck hit a boulder and his cab buckled under as the semi trailer rolled over it. That’s where he died. So in my mind, here I am, alone in the world, my wife was gone, my son was dead, and the realization that I could die along side a highway in the states just as easily in Iraq, sank in. I joined the army that week.

I served for 8 years of my life. I don’t regret it. I don’t think anyone owes me anything. Just like my other experiences, it is a part of who I am and what I have become today. I don’t know if one day, your son will decide to join the military. If he does, he will see his share of racism, misogyny, and unfairness. He will also see camaraderie, respect, and loyalty. He may even find friendship in an old white guy from Appalachia. There is so much more to serving than can be put into words or explained in a conversation. If one day, your son decides to make that choice and serve, just know that there will be people like me who will always show him respect and be thankful for his sacrifice.

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Response to Quackers (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:11 PM

143. ty Quackers

I am in Appalachia also, Bristol TN. I read your post 4 times before answering. I am please you survived "that moment" that we will all have throughout our years. I am more proud that you took that moment to serve.And your perspective is complete in my mind,,we served for ALL, thats what we did. And thank you for obviously taking time to read OP.

Your post should tell all others here,that you lost everything, without a chance to disagree, and yet,you volunteered for others to have a choice God did not give you. OMG you rock!!
I dont know where you are in mountain country,, I'll talk to you anytime. too much crap in this online world,,

Doug/Koz

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:24 PM

145. It seems they make every event or holiday about the military.

It isn't enough that there is
(Mar 29) Vietnam War Veterans Day
(May) Memorial Day
(June 6) D-Day
(Nov 11) Veterans Day
(Dec 7) Pearl Harbor

But they also take
(June 14) Flag Day
(July 4) Independence Day

even though they apply to all patriotic Americans.

And this doesn't include other days that different branches observe or groups.

And then they seem to be given top billing when it comes around to Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Excuse me. But just with the public safety people they made the choice and they do get paid for their time. Those in the military are not paid just wages. They receive lodging, meals, etc. and in some cases receive lodging and other allowances when they live off base. That doesn't even include the medical and education benefits.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:49 PM

152. I remember the current deification of the military beginning as a rebuttal

to the way Vietnam vets were looked at when they returned. In time, this changed as people began to realize that they were just doing their jobs and were not all "baby-killers." Eventually, people started to go overboard. During the parades in my town, the applause was the loudest when the VN vets went marching by. I remember my sister saying to me, "Guilt applause."

Bush and Cheney perfected the adulation of the military. It was all done as part of an effort to popularize the Iraq invasion. It continues to this day as seen by glitzy TV commercials for the various branches and payments to the NFL to get them to praise the military.

I've heard that most military personnel aren't fighting for our freedom, they're fighting for their fellow servicemen and women at their side. I can appreciate that. What bothers me is the reasons that they are fighting to begin with. Money, oil, religion, political capital.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:21 PM

162. This thread is shameful.

 

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Response to pintobean (Reply #162)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:15 PM

169. Not really. This is some people's expierence.

 

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Response to Joe941 (Reply #169)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 11:26 PM

173. More lack of

 

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Response to pintobean (Reply #162)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 11:57 PM

174. It would help if you explain why. I can't wait. Nt

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 07:23 PM

164. Anyone who thinks war is solely a human experience...

Is naive. Animals war, too.

Social insects like ants fight wars between colonies. They kill and pillage each other for resources.

Plenty of the males of higher animals fight each other, and even kill one another for access to "resources" which means access to food and females. Lions, elephants, deer, antelopes, horses, just to name a few.

You can either take an evolutionary viewpoint or a religious viewpoint, but war is as old as humanity.

And do not put it all on males. Plenty of women in the USSR served in combat in WWII. Google "Night Witches". Some of the best Soviet snipers were women with hundreds of kills.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #164)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:18 PM

204. I think the fact that animals war

highlights the requirement for us, as humans, to overcome our ancient animal habits of making war. In a complex, interconnected and interdependent world, it’s incumbent upon us to follow paths of courage and reconciliation rather than fear and greed.

The fact that Marianne Williamson was ridiculed as a purveyor of “woo” shows how far we are from these goals.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 08:24 PM

166. We don't. We respect soldiers as trying to do their duty regardless of our personal feeling about

wars they are sent to. They also have diverse opinions about those wars, but they often return to
duty to help their brother and sisters in arms. Many would rather not engage with civilians in political discussions about a particular war or presidency that occasioned it. I had to learn to respect that.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 08:31 PM

167. When I got of the military in 1989

I knew joining was a mistake. To get a job I had to hide the fact that I had been in the military from employers. Ungrateful people really say a lot about my service. It was all for nothing. The next time America is attacked you are on your own. The firefighters can also let your house burn down. Why should they risk life and limb for strangers?

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Response to Opel_Justwax (Reply #167)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:51 PM

170. I don't worship the military, so next time America is under attack, I'm on my own..

And you hope my house burns down too. Well all righty then. You joined the military and got paid to do a job. What were you expecting? Firefighters get paid to do a job too and based on my observations, eye get a damn sweet deal. Sorry about your experience...I know the company I work for goes out of its way to hire qualified eternal. As for gratitude, I learned a while ago never to expect it. In fact I think Jesus said some interesting about that.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 10:55 PM

171. I agree with you

War is stupid.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:14 AM

175. I respect a nurse, coal miner, roofer the same! Nt

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:33 AM

177. war, it's our nature

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:40 AM

183. The military is a jobs program that serves the corporations and their interests.

Willingly or manipulated. The cook at the restaurant I go to and my barista at Starbucks do more to keep me safe than the military does. As for protecting our freedom? If the military brass told them to take it most would be happy to comply.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:01 AM

186. I had a friend in the military

he said his biggest danger was dodging DUIs because they partied so damn much.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:10 AM

187. In my life/world, I have to keep silent on what I think of the military/industrial/corporate complex

because if I say what I really think, I am ostracized. To your point, I think there are Three reasons that people join the military: one, they have no other employment options (every one of the people I know have joined for this one reason), two, machoism...having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate, three, it's a family thing...tradition.

One of the things I hate most about America is our WORSHIP of militaristic things. I can't even watch or listen to the Star Spangled Banner anymore. It is like a cult.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:47 AM

190. I suggest

Andrew Bacevich’s books and Chalmers Johnson’s books.

Also the health of the state is not war but coercion.

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Response to lonely bird (Reply #190)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:59 AM

191. Can you please expand on that last statement? Is it about diplomacy?

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #191)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:18 PM

236. Thanks for asking

It has been said that the state has a monopoly on violence which is true to a great degree. That being said the state is the expression of organization of society. As such it is subject to those who seek and will wield power. Doing so requires that power-wielders use tools which allows or permits power to be wielded. Tools such as patriotism, exceptionalism, mythology, capitalism and useful targets such as socialism/communism, gays, foreigners etc aka “the other” are examples of what are used by power-wielders through the state. Democracy or autocracy or oligarchy it matters not. The state coerces because the power-wielders need coercion even when coercion is for the good of all. Coercion itself demonstrates how the state can or cannot function.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:23 PM

193. You and John Lennon my DU friend...

I stand with you and recall as a young man growing up and staring down the Vietnam barrel as I approached 'cannon fodder' age I had a complete disconnect between US policy and the policy of humanness. Understanding that 'war is not the answer" could have moved human kind to places we only read about in science fiction novels. You can say that you're a dreamer (girl), but your not the only one.

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Response to FreeWheatForever (Reply #193)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:21 PM

217. Thanks for that. I remember when I was about 8 or 9 seeing the obituaries of the

Vietnam war dead in the newspaper. I can still see those images in my mind’s eye. They looked so strong and serious looking. Not at all like my goofball 19 year old son. Even then, I found those images heartbreaking. My mom would read those obituaries. She had four sons - one who joined the army and served stateside, another a conscientious objector, another with a college deferral, my youngest brother would have been too young to,serve. I wonder now wat was going through her mind as she read those obituaries. So sad.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #217)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:23 PM

233. Another thought

Walking to Jr high and High school on my street, about a mile long with service flags in the windows designating that home as one with a soldier in Vietnam. Every flag had a star in the center, most often blue. Sometimes the star would be gold.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:32 PM

194. You said that very well

We often accept war as inevitable, but it is really insane.

Also I've found that most vets really don't like "Thank you for your service". it comes across as superficial and insincere and it makes them uncomfortable.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:33 PM

195. The soldiers are happy about some of the men dying...

... and sad about other men dying. Autistic reporter Michael Falk reports at The Onion News Network.



https://www.theonion.com/four-american-troops-tragically-killed-along-with-23-af-1819595201


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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:05 PM

199. Universal Soldier by Buffy Sainte Marie. War is a Racket by Smedley Butler.

It sure would be nice to evolve. But we are followers by nature, and most people are still happy to believe the propaganda.



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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:14 PM

200. When I joined

it was for the experience I wanted to push my limits, I have never in any civilian application ever had the bond of working together that I got from my time in the army. An added benefit of serving active duty is health coverage.

My mother was not thrilled when I joined but accepted that was what I wanted, my father was a ww2 veteran.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 01:48 PM

203. My opinion, FWIW

Part of it is collective guilt about the way Vietnam vets were treated after they came home. Part of it is a sense of collective guilt that the civilians "stabbed the military in the back" by "not letting them win" in Vietnam. The non-victory there cut very deeply into the US's psyche, but we could hardly blame the military for failing, so it must have been our fault.

I think this feeling is what led to the orgy of honoring the "Greatest Generation" a couple of decades later. This was a Boomer phenomenon, largely. Might it have been more guilt at remembering the disrespect with which those soi-disant "Greatest" had been treated as their parents? It seems curious to me that as the Boomers became parents themselves, suddenly their own parents didn't seem so bad.

So much for the possible feelings of the People. As for the power structure, it always pays to have the plebs honor the military, that's one way of conning the starving masses to go out and kill and be killed for them. In this respect, Smedley Butler's little tract "War is a Racket" has said all that needs to be said.

Part of Mr Reagan's "Morning in America" was restoring faith and confidence in the military (as well as paying them better: Ronald Reagan really was a friend to the troops in that respect). That's why we stomped Grenada so hard. We could then beat our collective chest and chant "USA! USA!" (although that chant had not been invented yet) It's vitally important in this country to be Number One. After a bunch of rice-eating peasants (as the saying went) whipped up on us so bad in Vietnam, we needed to find somebody to beat to restore our amour-propre. The Seventies were a terrible decade for the self-confidence of the nation, which is probably the biggest reason Mr Reagan was able to sell his line of crap and be elected by such overwhelming majorities.

Thus the military, as a propaganda piece, has become the most prominent symbol of our "Greatness." By "honoring" the troops (at least, while they're on active duty), we participate in that "Greatness" without having to be subject to the inconveniences of risking our lives in a rich man's war. When someone says "Thank you for your service," they're really saying "Thank you for making me feel like hot shit."

Mind you, I'm a tad cynical about the whole thing.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #203)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:09 PM

211. Excellent analysis.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 02:50 PM

208. Every empire needs a huge army.

The US is number 1 in war spending, and number 37 in healthcare ranking.

And propogandists regularly speak of the US military as a defensive force, while ignoring the over 1,000 military bases in nearly every country in the world.

Ultimately, the war machine protects the money interests of the rich.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #208)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:10 PM

214. Yep.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:06 PM

210. I don't. It's interesting and a little horrifying to watch, though.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:09 PM

212. How late was it until the US Armed Forces were forcibly desegregated?

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:38 PM

225. There are many reasons.

One very important one is the misguided idea that to be against war dishonors those who died fighting. Most people would rather believe a family member didn't die for no good reason. Even if justifying unjust actions causes others to die in similar fights.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 06:18 PM

230. I don't "worship" them, but they do put there lives

on the line for the country, and I have to appreciate that.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 08:22 PM

231. Thanks for spitting on my military service, Dream Girl

I spent twenty years, two months and fifteen days on active duty in the Air Force serving America in the prime of my youth.
During that time, I was decorated six times for meritorious service to this nation.

I never encountered a single person in the military who thought they were serving anyone but the American people.

Thank you for spitting on my service to America.

Pat Shediack
Chief Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired)

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Response to pshediack (Reply #231)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:05 PM

232. I'm assuming you received pay, housing, benefits and a pension?

So no, I won’t be fawning over your service.

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Response to Dream Girl (Reply #232)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 12:14 PM

242. Your assumption is correct...

...I earned the pay and benefits authorized by the Congress, the representatives of the American people.

And no, I don't need your "fawning"; I'm not a shallow person.

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Response to pshediack (Reply #231)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:28 PM

234. Thank you!!!!

Signed: Stinky. PROUD NAVY VET

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:29 PM

235. Massive UNREC

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:17 AM

239. The military can be an awesome opportunity if one wants to take advantage of it

I got a degree for no cost using tuition assistance while on active duty. I transferred most of my GI Bill to my son and he went to college full time for no cost and was paid $1200 a month for living expenses while doing so. I did 20 years and earned a lifetime pension and healthcare, the pay was good too, I left active duty in a senior enlisted position from California and I was taking home $8400 a month net there, pretty decent money. I also used my veterans preference and experience and landed a nice federal civilian job in my field. Something like 90% of the military is support roles anyway, not on the battlefield, I only had one 9 month overseas deployment in 20 years.

I kind of agree about the overzealous worship though, to me it was always just a job with great benefits that I wanted to take full advantage of and did. Plus I get 10% off everyday at Lowe's and Home Depot

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Response to madville (Reply #239)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 10:31 AM

240. Sounds like a sweet deal. You made it work for you and it sounds like you don't need or expect

Our undying gratitude.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2019, 09:02 AM

247. You guys really want to feel good, don't you.

I’d rather win. Shut up and soldier.

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Response to RichardRay (Reply #247)

Sun Dec 8, 2019, 02:18 PM

249. War is insane. Love of the military is sick.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sat Dec 7, 2019, 07:29 PM

248. A December 7th kick

 



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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sun Dec 8, 2019, 02:30 PM

250. A lot of this started after Vietnam vets came home to ridicule

The stories of being spit on etc.. (which I don't believe all are true to start with), led to this we have to treat the military with respect.. so much respect it is fake and doesn't mean anything half the time. So many are thanking the military for their service while supporting a party that reduces their benefits and continues to put them in harm's way for their pocketbooks.

The 'Thank you for your service' stuff makes me uncomfortable. The military is like any other group - good and bad folks are part of it. I'm not going to bindly thank a service person based on being in uniform. I have no idea what their beliefs are and if they support the nazis in office or truly want to help the country be better.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sun Dec 8, 2019, 03:03 PM

251. The Reason Why. The reasons Democrats make sure they're seen respecting

The military.

The reason that Democrats and many progressives see to it that they are seen respecting the military goes back to the Reagan area and before.

During the Vietnam War era, certain (genuinely) far left and anti-war protestors took it upon themselves to attack American service members, particularly those returning from Southeast Asia, as baby-killers and war criminals. There weren’t very members of this lunatic fringe and their views weren’t very popular, but they got noticed—not just by the right wing activists and politicians but also by the mainstream media.

The right wing and Republican activists eagerly created the meme that all liberals and Democrats hated the military, were unpatriotic and Un-American and started gleefully started swinging that cudgel with abandon. That was one of the memes that cost a lot of mainstream Democrats in the Plains and in the South and it’s still sometimes used today.

Those Democrats whose political careers survived learned their lesson: NEVER, EVER be seen as trashing the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines of the US armed forces.

You like being governed by Republicans? I don’t.

Do you want Donald Trump to get re-elected President and have the Republicans regain control of the House Of Representatives and gain an iron grip on the US Senate? I don’t.

That’s also why whenever guys of my vintage and mindset see some well-meaning but clueless progressive grumble about our respect for the military and implies that it’s “worship”, we’re inclined to wonder what sort of fool would raise that question, particularly at a time when the future of our representative republic teeters on the knife’s edge as a functioning democracy or falls into oligarchic tyranny.



Sorry, but I don’t want to give Donnie and the rest of the corrupt, rotten Republican have access to those political cudgels again.

I suggest that if you want to see GENUINE military worship of the sort that upsets you, look at old Soviet military marches through Red Square or the marches honoring the—um—honor and glory of the Chilean military in the post-Pinochet era.

I don’t think that the US falls into that category.

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Response to Dream Girl (Original post)

Sun Dec 8, 2019, 03:43 PM

252. It is no longer seen as a group effort

In WWII, everyone participated. Making their uniforms and weapons, supporting them in every way. We make the money that supports their efforts and are all part of it - they happen to be the young men who do the actual fighting. Now, it seems like they are doing it on their own, as the "wars" are for some political purpose and we don't really feel threatened.

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