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Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:07 PM

Jimmy Hoffa

So, I was watching the new Scorcese film, "The Irishman", and I started to think. If we still had labor bosses like Hoffa around, would we still be dealing with this level of income inequality?

Yes, Hoffa and some other union bosses were corrupt, probably racist, definitely sexist, etc. However they did fight hard for labor's share of the pie.

Something tells me that Jeff Bezos would have to give back more than a few of his billions to his workers.

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Arrow 104 replies Author Time Post
Reply Jimmy Hoffa (Original post)
Yavin4 Nov 28 OP
MaryMagdaline Nov 28 #1
mountain grammy Nov 30 #75
MaryMagdaline Dec 3 #86
JonLP24 Nov 28 #2
rampartc Dec 3 #102
Hoyt Nov 28 #3
whathehell Nov 30 #48
Hoyt Nov 30 #49
whathehell Nov 30 #54
Hoyt Nov 30 #55
whathehell Nov 30 #57
MicaelS Nov 30 #58
whathehell Nov 30 #59
Hoyt Nov 30 #60
MicaelS Nov 30 #62
Hoyt Nov 30 #63
rampartc Dec 3 #103
moondust Nov 28 #4
JonLP24 Nov 28 #5
moondust Nov 28 #7
JonLP24 Nov 28 #8
whathehell Nov 28 #33
whathehell Nov 30 #50
Bluethroughu Dec 1 #84
Laffy Kat Nov 28 #6
rockfordfile Nov 28 #9
Yavin4 Nov 28 #12
Kaleva Nov 28 #26
Haggis for Breakfast Nov 28 #27
mountain grammy Nov 30 #76
whathehell Nov 28 #30
Kaleva Nov 29 #41
whathehell Nov 30 #46
Kaleva Nov 30 #51
whathehell Nov 30 #52
Kaleva Nov 30 #53
whathehell Nov 30 #56
Kaleva Nov 30 #66
whathehell Nov 30 #67
Kaleva Nov 30 #68
whathehell Nov 30 #69
Kaleva Nov 30 #70
whathehell Nov 30 #71
Kaleva Nov 30 #72
whathehell Nov 30 #73
Kaleva Dec 1 #79
LanternWaste Dec 3 #91
Kaleva Dec 3 #92
TEB Nov 28 #10
whathehell Nov 28 #31
Upthevibe Nov 28 #11
lunatica Nov 28 #34
Hassin Bin Sober Nov 29 #37
lunatica Nov 29 #39
Hassin Bin Sober Nov 29 #40
LeftInTX Nov 30 #65
LeftInTX Nov 30 #64
Hassin Bin Sober Nov 29 #38
LeftInTX Nov 30 #74
eleny Nov 28 #13
Yavin4 Nov 28 #14
eleny Nov 28 #16
whathehell Nov 30 #61
Brainstormy Nov 28 #15
whathehell Nov 30 #47
mnhtnbb Dec 1 #82
H2O Man Nov 28 #17
CatWoman Nov 28 #18
H2O Man Nov 28 #19
lunatica Nov 28 #35
H2O Man Nov 29 #42
lunatica Nov 29 #44
MaryMagdaline Dec 3 #87
lunatica Dec 3 #90
JonLP24 Dec 3 #93
lunatica Dec 3 #94
JonLP24 Dec 3 #95
lunatica Dec 3 #96
JonLP24 Dec 3 #97
lunatica Dec 3 #98
JonLP24 Dec 3 #99
lunatica Dec 3 #101
tavernier Dec 1 #85
Blue_true Nov 28 #20
Yavin4 Nov 28 #21
Blue_true Nov 28 #22
Yavin4 Nov 28 #23
Blue_true Nov 28 #25
lunatica Nov 29 #36
H2O Man Nov 29 #43
Tink41 Nov 28 #24
pbmus Dec 1 #80
PCIntern Nov 28 #28
myohmy2 Nov 28 #29
whathehell Nov 28 #32
Mc Mike Nov 29 #45
MaryMagdaline Dec 3 #88
Mc Mike Dec 4 #104
mountain grammy Nov 30 #77
SweetieD Nov 30 #78
Xolodno Dec 1 #81
Bluethroughu Dec 1 #83
MaryMagdaline Dec 3 #89
TidalWave46 Dec 3 #100

Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:12 PM

1. I'm having some of the same feelings

I won’t be able to finish the movie until everyone goes home but the Hoffa scenes are really inspiring. My mother, from a Detroit Republican family (later a lefty) said Jimmy Hoffa was an honest crook. By which I think she meant that he stood with his union guys.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:40 PM

75. My mom said the same thing..

but she was always a lefty

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #75)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 07:31 AM

86. Smart lady!

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:13 PM

2. This was before my time

I thought union racketeering was bad for unions?

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:23 PM

102. i wonder how much of that is propaganda?

I was ibew, we elected our stewards and officers and they seemed square. maybe I was too young to catch on.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:16 PM

3. Like you said, Hoffa and unions in general were racist and corrupt. I doubt he would have

done a lot to make things better for everyone.

Fortunately, unions have changed, but their racist/bigoted history — which kept minorities out of better jobs — is hard to ignore.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:57 AM

48. Most of society was "racist and sexist" back then, business

and government too.

When society changed, the unions, and those other institutions did too.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #48)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:07 AM

49. Unions should have led the way, instead the membership was openly hostile to minorities.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #49)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:52 AM

54. Whatever they "should" have done, the fact is they were just as human,

if less privileged, than their generally wealthier, more educated peers in Business and Government, so I'd guess your expectations of their "leading the way" to be unfair and unrealistic.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #54)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:55 AM

55. Not an excuse. Unions and some candidates continue with "Amerca First," "Economic Patriotism," etc.

that considers foreign workers as scabs.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #55)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:17 PM

57. Don't move the goalposts.,.The"excuse" you mention refers

to the conversation we were having about Union's PAST, and yes, it WAS a good 'excuse'-- As for the rest, I don't know what you're talking about.

There happens to be MANY Minority Union Members now, so unless you can stay on topic or actually document your accusations, we have nothing else to discuss.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #55)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:21 PM

58. A Union's foremost job is to serve its members.

Everything else is secondary or worse. If management brings in outside workers to replace members then they are scabs. No matter where they come from.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #58)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:31 PM

59. Thank you. You are correct. n/t.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #58)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:39 PM

60. Yep, unions were racist well into 1980s and now they've turned their attention

to treating foreign workers as scabs, with support of some candidates.

Sorry, that junk is wrong.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #60)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:42 PM

62. You are just a one-trick pony.

Everything is the fault of (racist) white men.

When you can prove you are a union member, then I will listen. Otherwise you are just full of it.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #62)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:50 PM

63. Truth hurts. And a lot is the fault of racist white people, not just men. A whole lot.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:32 PM

103. i was a union member in mississippi in the 1970s

yes, many of the members were deplorable racists, and in the "old days" the local had been whites only, but by that time we were actively recruiting black apprentices and had a few journeymen as well.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:22 PM

4. Greedy vs. greedy.

Isn't that what some of the old labor fights with management amounted to? Which probably led some managers to offshore their jobs to cheap labor markets where workers were desperate, unorganized, and largely helpless to fight back?

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Response to moondust (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:25 PM

5. Collective bargaining is not a bad thing at all and in general I don't consider labor the greedy one

That is part of why they go offshore. Another reason is deregulation. Collective bargaining is a good thing but business tries to rig the game in their favor.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #5)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:32 PM

7. No doubt most labor

just wants a fair deal for their work and collective bargaining is the way to get there. Usually it works out. I do think some like Hoffa were rightly or wrongly perceived to be always demanding too much and calling for too many walkouts and strikes to get it. I vaguely remember a lot more strikes back then than there are now.

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Response to moondust (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:34 PM

8. I think there is less union solidarity

The union busting was effective but our economy was stronger with strong unions and we had more of a middle class.

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Response to moondust (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 10:37 PM

33. Yes, and BOTH sides negotiate the contract

and both sides are responsible for the outcome.

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Response to moondust (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:12 AM

50. No, that would amount to false equivalence

Given that the workers and their Company are hardly on equal footing. The companies far outstrips the unions and their members in terms of money and power.
One can hardly equate a Mult-billion dollar company wanting to keep an extra million with a group of workers wanting a $2 an hour raise.

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Response to moondust (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 07:59 AM

84. The means of production

Is what contract negotiations are about. Workers stand together with Representatives that address management. Nothing greedy about it. Fair wages and benefits for the production and earnings made by the fruits of their labor.

We have moved on from plantation economics or a Cass system, as a civilized society we should not be made to compete with other countries not so economically evolved.

Unions are a group of people contracting for a piece of the earned profit, no different than two lawyers discussing contracts for anything else of consideration.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 02:29 PM

6. No doubt the tough-guy persona helped. nt

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 03:46 PM

9. Hoffa was deeply connected to Nixon and so was the Mafia at that time

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 04:07 PM

12. Nixon would be considered a Berniecrat by today's conservative standards. n/t

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:22 PM

26. What would RFK, who went after Hoffa, be considered to be by today's standards?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:42 PM

27. Shortsighted.

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Response to Haggis for Breakfast (Reply #27)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:44 PM

76. Bingo!

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 09:43 PM

30. RFK was anti-Hoffa, not anti-Union

Virtually ALL Democrats, including the Kennedys, were strongly pro-Union at that time.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 06:51 AM

41. OP was asking for union leaders LIKE Hoffa

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #41)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:09 AM

46. I responded to your post, not his.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #46)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:12 AM

51. Well, the discussion is about the OPs post

The discussion is about union leaders like Hoffa. Not about unions in general.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #51)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:15 AM

52. Then why did you bring up RFK?

I'll keep on topic if you do.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #52)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:17 AM

53. Because of RFK's handling of union leaders like Hoffa.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #53)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:00 PM

56. To my knowledge, RFK handled no other union leader BUT Hoffa

Again, you may not want to hear it, but he was anti-corruption, not ant-union.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #56)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:06 PM

66. I never said RFK was anti-union.

And we don't need corrupt people like Hoffa to head any union. We don't need corrupt people anywhere.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #66)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:12 PM

67. ..And I never said I was pro-corruption.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #67)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:13 PM

68. Where would you get the idea that I ever said you were?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #68)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:20 PM

69. Where would you get the idea I said you were anti-union?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #69)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:24 PM

70. Can you provide a quote where I said such a thing? Or even implied it?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #70)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:27 PM

71. You can answer my question first.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #71)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:31 PM

72. I already did with post #53. A response to your post #52

Now you can answer my question.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #72)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:47 PM

73. Yeah, sure

You know what? This is starting to feel like a petty, pointless "argument'" I'm no longer interested in having. You have yourself a nice evening.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 02:30 AM

79. Sorry to see you go. I was enjoying our exchange.

I just wished you would have answered my question first before leaving.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #79)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:07 PM

91. I dig your malarkey.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #91)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 01:16 PM

92. I think i just saw a thread about malarkey.

Sometimes the best way to deal with someone is to bury them with malarkey.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 03:48 PM

10. Hoffa senior

Took care of the men yes the union was created by violence but don’t forget why. Because the company was shitting all over the men.

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Response to TEB (Reply #10)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 10:07 PM

31. People were KILLED fighting for a 40 hour work week, safety standards

and other working conditions we now take for granted. They were beaten and sometimes fired on by the police and the company's "private security forces", like the Pinkertons.

My understanding is that unions didn't initiate the violence, they reponse to the violence meted out by the companies.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 03:57 PM

11. I saw The Irishman and loved it...

I'm a huge Scorsese fan. I've always been curious about Hoffa.

I certainly get your question about Labor Unions. Workers basically have hardly any rights anymore. California is an at-will state so people can be fired at any time.

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Response to Upthevibe (Reply #11)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 11:47 PM

34. I just saw it and it was excellent

I do wish Scorsese would have left the disappearance a mystery though. I think the movie would have held up quite well without showing him killed.

But I wonder if Scorsese know something we don’t.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:27 AM

37. Since the movie is based on a book about a guy who claims he killed Hoffa I doubt that would...

... make sense.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:17 AM

39. Thanks.

I looked up whether Hoffa was ever found and didn’t find anything about the book. I didn’t know about the book.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 02:31 AM

40. The book author interviewed Sheeran before he died.

The author claims to believe Sheeran about the alleged Hoffa hit but most others don’t - including other mobsters, reporters that covered those stories and law enforcement.

The Gallo hit is even more dubious. Gallo’s own wife said it was short Italian guys not a 6’4” Irishman. Iirc, the bodyguard that got hit knew the shooter by face and it was Sheeran.

A fascinating story but probably all bullshit as far as the hits by Sheeran go. He’s been called the Forrest Gump of hitmen.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #37)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:33 PM

65. I just discovered this today.

The FBI memo on Hoffa's disappearance:

https://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/downloads/2014-07-21/The_Hoffex_Memo_--_Barnes_Ashenfelter_version.pdf

(I haven't finished watching the movie, but I was having some fun researching the story on a Saturday afternoon)

Sheeran is listed as a suspect on page 3. But Chuckie O'Brien is listed first on page 1.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #34)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:26 PM

64. Who knows?

There is the Hoffex memo from the FBI

https://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/downloads/2014-07-21/The_Hoffex_Memo_--_Barnes_Ashenfelter_version.pdf


Chuckie O'Brien is the first suspect and is listed on page 1.
Sheeran is listed on page 3.

I remember shortly after his disappearance, there was blood found in a car. Everyone was all excited about it, but it turned out to be chicken blood. (But I guess it really was salmon blood).

I was 19, but my younger sister was following this case because she was big fan of legal stuff. She kept everyone in the family up to date on Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance!

I had never heard of Jimmy Hoffa prior to his disappearance

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Response to Upthevibe (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:39 AM

38. I liked the movie but I had a problem with Pacino playing his usual self.

He wasn’t a convincing Hoffa. It was more like the Scent of A Woman character.

And they should have used a stunt double when DeNiro was kicking that guy in the gutter. The cgi effect on his face was just ok but the gutter scene looked like what it was - a pudgy 76 year old man trying to kick a guy. It was kind of embarrassing.


Other than that I really liked it. The scene where Pesci convinces DeNiro Hoffa has to go is gripping.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #38)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 06:45 PM

74. Getting to Hoffa's character now

Pacino just looks too old and seems too Italian. Although he does seem to do a pretty good job of his facial expressions, they look forced.

I wonder if Scorsese thought of Ray Liotta to play Hoffa?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 04:59 PM

13. I'm almost halfway finished reading the book

I was thinking that the companies were so greedy and used such ruthless tactics to keep their workers at low pay and pretty bad working conditions - what would have to emerge is a tough answer back. You can't use a letter opener to fight a sword.

I'm trying not to watch the movie before I finish the book. But I think we'll give in and watch it tonight.

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Response to eleny (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 05:10 PM

14. ".. the companies were so greedy and used such ruthless tactics to keep their workers at low pay and

used such ruthless tactics to keep their workers at low pay and pretty bad working conditions.."


were? They're doing exactly this right now.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:08 PM

16. Yeah, for sure

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 12:42 PM

61. Not only that, companies used 'Goon Squads' to beat up workers.

Some were killed fighting for unions.

As to your point, yes they are, which is why we need a resurgence of unions.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 05:21 PM

15. film bored the stew out of me.

that's all I got.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:33 AM

47. Me too ..

Like most, I enjoyed The Godather Trilogy, and I loved Goodfellas, but those satisfied whatever fascination The Mob may have had for me...By and large, I find find them dull witted and uninteresting. Their ruthlessness changes none of that for me.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 05:20 AM

82. I have had to turn it off twice

Because I'm bored with it. May go back to it just to see it through. It is not gripping for me at all.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:28 PM

17. Great movie.

I loved every minute of it.

Hoffa was a combination of very good and very bad. And that influenced his work with labor. He definitely did some good things, and just as certainly, he was a crook.

My father used to say that before the Hoffa era, unions were led by people in flannel suits standing up to the guys in silk suits. It changed to union leaders wearing suits, too, and having more in common with management than with workers.

Never wear shorts to a meeting with Jimmy.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:32 PM

18. I started watching it this morning and was interrupted

now the Wizard of Oz is on. LOL

Can't wait to get back to it later tonite

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Response to CatWoman (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:39 PM

19. A few friends

told me that they watched half, and will view the rest later. There tend to be more opportunities in that long a movie.

Right now, I'm watching some documentaries on politics.

Enjoy the rest of the movie!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 11:55 PM

35. I got very caught up in that scene

Later when I analyzed it as actors playing roles I had to admit every actor at that table was playing his part to perfection. I’ll have to watch it a few more times to get more out of it. Like atmosphere, lighting, etc.

I’m a movie buff. I like to get caught up in the emotions of the story, but then to go back again and again to appreciate all the different things that go into making movies. And I get just as much enjoyment each time.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 09:31 AM

42. One of the many

things I liked about the movie was how the suspence built in specific scenes. But I recognize that was due to my have a good idea what was coming, whereas my son -- less familiar with the actual history -- probably was wondering why I was mumbling, "oh shit" during various parts of it. I was no doubt laughing at inappropriate times as well .....I have generally avoided theaters for that very reason.

The movie was accurate in showing what a violent world it was, where the Teamsters overlapped with the mafia. I suppose the movie connects better with today's older generation, because we remember it so well. Thus, I was surprised my son didn't say, "okay, Boomer" when I was mumbling or laughing.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:27 PM

44. We can thank Scorsese for the younger generation not saying Ok Boomer

We must count our blessings!

Seriously though, younger people must think those were bizarre times indeed. Maybe even a period piece.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 07:43 AM

87. At least the younger generation May get an inkling that we are

NOT more divided than ever now ... the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s were pretty divided.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #87)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 12:50 PM

90. They might have to give in and admit the Boomers lived in

and we’re part and parcel of hugely significant times on all levels from demanding societal changes and human rights movements to reaching out into space. We’ve left our footprint on history. They may blame us for our faults, which is their prerogative, but in fairness they should thank us for bringing them the science and tools they can use to right those wrongs.

It’s been a wild ride! I hope it continues for them.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #90)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:03 PM

93. Context is everything

When it comes to social media there are a lot of RW boomers.

The election and reelection of President Barack Obama heralded the emergence of a demographic coalition of racial minorities, young adults, and growing white voting blocs that expanded Democratic support from the coasts and Midwest to new parts of the Sun Belt. Obama’s victories symbolized the arrival of an American electorate destined to become the new mainstream in 21st Century.

This movement was stopped in its tracks by a blowback of older Americans who are mostly white, live in all parts of the country, and elected Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton.

Among votes counted at this time, exit poll show Republican Trump bested Democrat Clinton by a net of 6,414,252 votes among voters over age 45. As for voters under age 45, Clinton received a net of 6,679,191 votes more than Trump.

Although this national young/old split is fairly even, older voters made deciding numeric differences in Trump’s favor for consequential swing states, especially in the Rust Belt. This differs from the two previous presidential elections when the younger voters gave Barack Obama his wins.

The Democratic leaning young adult vote is now driven by racial minorities who made up 37 percent of voters under age 30 in the 2016 election. In contrast, whites constituted 78 percent of the voters over age 45 and 87 percent of those over age 65. On Nov. 8, whites in these age groups showed the strongest support for Donald Trump in almost every swing state that he won.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/11/10/the-demographic-blowback-that-elected-donald-trump/amp/

No one would ever say OK Boomer to H2O Man because he is one of the most progressive posters on this website.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #93)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:14 PM

94. Every generation has its 'draggarts', people who drag

everything down. I’m a 71 year old boomer who has had to deal with groups in my generation who just can’t let go of the good old days of Leave it to Beaver delusion. They were there when I was part of the Hippy movement and the explosion of the Feminism and the Civil Rights movements.

Don’t throw us all away.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #94)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:21 PM

95. I was just trying to explain where the phrase comes

Imagine there is an older racist or homophobe ranting. OK Boomer is a way to shut down the conversation. I personally never use it but it isn't the younger generation throwing older people away.

A queer woman was sent death and rape threats for shutting down a homophobic troll with ‘OK boomer’

Alyssa, a 21-year-old Toronto resident and the self-styled “high priestess of gay Twitter”, shared a screenshot of an anonymous man calling her an “ugly d*ke” and telling her “you are going to hell”.

When she wrote back: “OK boomer,” the homophobe, whose profile picture was of a church cross, replied: “How can you call me that?”

He went on to abuse a number of her followers, calling them “ugly ass f*ggots” and telling them: “Never use that word [boomer], it’s wrong.” Alyssa said that she was also sent death and rape threats, all for calling the man a boomer.

(Snip)

“It is not a slur,” said Alyssa. “There is no history of oppression associated with the word boomer, it describes your generation.”

“I kinda understand them because it brings it down to their age and it feels like we are making fun of the for being old, but boomer is not even about age.

“It mores describes a mindset that is still stuck in that whole 50s, 60s white supremacist anti-gay, men are strong, women are weak era.

“But mostly the meaning of ‘OK boomer’ is ‘alright, we heard you, thank you for your opinion but its irrelevant honey’.

“It’s a statement that baby, the world is not yours to oppress anymore. Your time is up.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/11/18/ok-boomer-death-threats-lgbt-twitter-viral-homophobia-troll/amp/

The way social media is that interactions are a lot more toxic so it is just a phrase used when on the receiving end of right wing opinions.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #95)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:31 PM

96. If you can't make up your mind whether it's some flattering thing or

a targeted and deliberate insult then don’t be surprised at the reaction you get. The you I’m referring to is the collective you, not the personal one.

I want millennials and every generation after mine to take the reigns. I think we brought up some great kids who have taken advantage of every opportunity afforded to them, including the ideas of inclusion, tolerance and progressiveness. Our country will be and is in great hands with them.

But you will find ‘draggarts’ in your age group too. They are fixture. A sub group of Americans who get their values from the ‘draggart’ boomers.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #96)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 02:55 PM

97. The only negative reactions I see are on DU

Where they are more upset about the phrase than the abuse the person who used the phrase received.

I'm well aware of younger alt right. Just explaining how social media interactions go.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #97)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:05 PM

98. On DU you're punching at your allies not your foes

In all sincerity, thanks for the education. I only hope it’s reciprocal.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #98)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:08 PM

99. I'm not using OK Boomer

All it is a phrase used by younger people when they are confronted by an older out of touch boomer. I posted an LGBT person receiving death & rape threats as an example.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #99)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:18 PM

101. Thanks for clarifying that!

You have educated me. I appreciate that. And I do get the pain.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:12 AM

85. I thought it was stunning.

All three lead characters gave me goosebumps. It was truly a privilege to watch these titans at work. My only regret was that my hubby passed two years ago and didn’t get to see it. This film was definitely made for him. He would have branded it A Keeper, his highest praise.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 06:47 PM

20. Hoffa and men like him were racist and sexist.

Maybe you don't make the connection, but they were perfectly ok with anyone but White men living substandard lives. The country is more diverse today and people that once were knocked down have better opportunities at building wealth.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 07:26 PM

21. Yeah, but the answer to the corruption, racism, sexism of the unions is to get better leaders

not throw out the concept of organized labor entirely.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 07:45 PM

22. Your OP celebrated Hoffa. I pointed out what he and men like him were.

Today's Union leaders generally are much better. But Union membership has declined in part because White men no longer automatically get a leg up in Union representation.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:10 PM

23. Hoffa does deserve some praise.

He did fight for, and did win, better pay and working conditions for his union. That's what's missing today. Strong unions to fight for better working conditions.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:21 PM

25. He fought for only a fraction of workers in America, he was perfectly ok with

seeing others get nothing and not even be able to get hired.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 12:01 AM

36. I'm a retired Teamster

The union is quite well represented now and is run by Jimmy Hoffa Jr.

The best raises, the ones that made it so my paycheck made it to the end of the month, came because of my union.

The movie doesn’t pretend Hoffa was any kind of saint. Scorsese made him quite flawed as a matter of fact.

I think we can take the truth nowadays.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 09:50 AM

43. Context is everything.

Many of us grew up during the time that Hoffa vs RFK was an intense, on-going fight. As you know, the two hated each other, with an intensity that the movie could only hint at. It's worth reading RFK's 1960 book, "The Enemy Within," to get a fuller picture of those times. In every sense, when it came to those two, it was a struggle betwee good and evil .....but it was played out internally as well as externally.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 08:11 PM

24. Union Sister Here!

As a longtime tradeswoman I can say this. I could only hope for the tactics used in the past. The fight is far from over, the powers that be have raked so much back that Unions had won. And from my view the members are responsible. No doubt about it racism, sexism cronyism, still exist as do corrupt leaders. But to let that discourage you from the benefits of an organized entity that is stronger together, well that's what they use to conquer and divide. Best decision I ever made had a fantastic middle class life.

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Response to Tink41 (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 02:52 AM

80. The mob killed the Kennedy's and Hoffa effectively dividing and conquering...

Since then, mobs gone legit and Wall Street is the new mob....

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 09:27 PM

28. Terrific film with

Many cinematic homages to other classic films. Fascinating.

Great performances by the entire cast

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 09:37 PM

29. +1

...

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Nov 28, 2019, 10:25 PM

32. The entire Society, business, government, was "racist and sexist"

The unions reflected that -- They were hardly the sole province of it, and when society changed, they did too.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Fri Nov 29, 2019, 08:34 PM

45. I think you missed the boat re Sheeran's 'labor activism' on behalf of Hoffa.

I hear you paint houses = I hear you're a hitman for hire, which is the first thing Hoffa asked Sheeran. The movie showed Sheeran's 'activism' on behalf of 'labor' and Hoffa in Chicago. Another rival union, the SIU, wanted to organize the cab company, so Hoffa had Sheeran get goons to destroy the cabs.

That wasn't done to benefit the working man and woman, it was done to knock out another union which was a rival. Sheeran wasn't being asked to threaten a boss or paint a boss's house, he was asked to attack another union and the livelihood of the workers who were going with a different union.

I'm a union member myself, have been in 3 unions, including Teamsters 249 (card in withdrawal), and currently IBEW 5.

All unions aren't corrupt, the most mob corrupt unions, like the Teamsters, kept backing the repugs, like Hoffa backed Nixon, like the Teamsters backed Reagan. And the repugs always back the management types who fight hard to take away all of labor's share of the pie.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 07:48 AM

88. Thanks for this background. Helps to sort through history

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 4, 2019, 07:17 AM

104. 2 different things are going on with this movie.

Scorsese and DeNiro are very much against tRump, and are pointing to things that are bad about Teamsters - organized crime connections that point to tRump. On the one hand.

And on the other hand, the movie's writers are setting up a false dichotomy, expressed by the Sheeran daughter liking Hoffa and disliking Bufalino. Sheeran 'lost access to the good part of himself' by going along with Bufalino to hit Hoffa. Therefore, in the movie writer's telling, if you were pro-Hoffa, you were anti-mob. It was Hoffa vs the mob.

But Hoffa and Sheeran met through the mob, through Bufalino.

If you actually pay attention to what Scorsese is saying, he's telling you 'this is the story according to this felonious and murderous criminal, who obviously lies'. Martin tells these stories sympathetically, to show organized crime people that he'll give them a fair shake and won't paint them as total monsters, but if you pay attention you can see he views them with a jaded eye, not through rose colored glasses.

In Goodfellas, if you paid attention you'd see that Scorsese showed that Hill was involved in killing Frank Carbone by hanging him up on a hook in a freezer truck, though he had cast Liotta to play Hill in a very sympathetic way.

People get lost in the sympathetic portrayal and become mob fan boys. Which ironically is the opposite of being a 'wise guy'. And Scorsese and DeNiro are telling the story to make the viewers wise guys, because they oppose the nazi elements in organized crime, and tRump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/07/25/teamsters-gop-forged-increasingly-close-links/87eee847-76f3-45cf-b64b-3a783c5f3503/

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 10:58 PM

77. Haven't seen the film yet, but plan to.

Just read toady that Walmart, instead of paying workers holiday pay for working the holiday, workers will be given a 15% store discount.

We need a rebirth of unions.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Sat Nov 30, 2019, 11:13 PM

78. I was thinking the same thing. You don't hear those strong union voices anymore.

And like you said yes there was extreme corruption and racism but there was on the anti union side too.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 03:47 AM

81. Can't view Hoffa in the lens of today.

If he complied to the norms of today, he would have failed every step of the way. Corporate heads were corrupt and inhuman, people fatalities on the factory floor, truck driving, etc. were nothing new. Just considered part of the "cost". So sending people to break up Unions and if they happened to kill a few people, well, that was part of the "cost" as well. Must remember, with the advent of electricity and night time light, there was less "sloth" to be had by the general populace in the corporate view.

So, he had to work with corrupt corporate heads, politicians and crime syndicates. Which meant he had to accept corrupt practices and work with them to get what he was trying to accomplish. Which means, he himself may have become corrupt to an extant...but nature of the business.

Hoffa's sin, he wasn't afraid to ditch a political party, crime syndicate, etc. if he was getting a raw deal. But he had people under him willing to sell their soul, which made them more attractive than dealing with a hard ass.

As for the decline of Unions today and since the 80's...that's a different story....and a long one.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Sun Dec 1, 2019, 07:46 AM

83. Proud Union home, right here.

My husband and I sat, watched, and analyzed this movie and history on Friday. Yes, there was corruption, isn't that always the case, everywhere.
Hoffa and the mafia were the strong men between the rich and powerful, and the working class, until they weren't. Hoffa tried to put the genie back in the bottle, but it was out of his hands in the end.
People identify with these characters and root for them, because we want someone to help us live in a more fair and equitable state.
We need to realize, we are all in this together, and we've always had the power, it's always been us. The poor, people of color, women, abolitionists, Wobblies, trade and teacher unions...we are the union united in the fight for a fair and equitable pursuit of happiness.
We are winning, this is why the greedy powerful people are gripping tighter. They will fail, like any strong man hanging on to the edge of a tall building.

Solidarity,
Union strong

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Response to Bluethroughu (Reply #83)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 07:50 AM

89. Salute to you and your family!

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2019, 03:12 PM

100. Something tells me...

"Something tells me that Jeff Bezos would have to give back more than a few of his billions to his workers."

That the Hoffas of the country became the Bezos of the country. It's more difficult to be a corrupt, racist, sexist union boss than it is to be a corrupt, racist and sexist business owner.

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