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Tue Nov 5, 2019, 08:58 AM

When Trump is gone, the dust has begun to settle and repairs to our system are

underway, perhaps some thought should be given to the re-fashioning of the entire impeachment process to make it more "workable" in a world in which effects follow causes in minutes, not months.

Congress needs the ability to enforce its subpoenas and punish those who defy them. Some form of special court or tribunal with the ability to respond to these challenges within days, not months, seems necessary. FISA courts were created to answer a specific need not contemplated by the founders. Dealing with a POTUS determined to obstruct Congress' legitimate oversight of his or her criminal actions seems to fit into that same category.

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Reply When Trump is gone, the dust has begun to settle and repairs to our system are (Original post)
Atticus Nov 2019 OP
BSdetect Nov 2019 #1
Cyrano Nov 2019 #2
True Blue American Nov 2019 #4
KentuckyWoman Nov 2019 #15
True Blue American Nov 2019 #24
KentuckyWoman Nov 2019 #32
Atticus Nov 2019 #20
Cyrano Nov 2019 #28
Atticus Nov 2019 #31
Cyrano Nov 2019 #33
Atticus Nov 2019 #35
NJCher Nov 2019 #44
olegramps Nov 2019 #42
Mike 03 Nov 2019 #3
beachbumbob Nov 2019 #5
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #16
beachbumbob Nov 2019 #37
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #46
KPN Nov 2019 #39
KentuckyWoman Nov 2019 #6
Farmer-Rick Nov 2019 #9
lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #10
Farmer-Rick Nov 2019 #14
CousinIT Nov 2019 #7
lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #12
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #17
True Blue American Nov 2019 #25
Cary Nov 2019 #8
Farmer-Rick Nov 2019 #13
Cary Nov 2019 #29
KPN Nov 2019 #40
Cary Nov 2019 #45
gordianot Nov 2019 #11
kentuck Nov 2019 #18
Perseus Nov 2019 #19
Atticus Nov 2019 #21
Ferrets are Cool Nov 2019 #23
kentuck Nov 2019 #26
unblock Nov 2019 #38
olegramps Nov 2019 #43
Ferrets are Cool Nov 2019 #22
Mike Nelson Nov 2019 #27
Cerridwen Nov 2019 #30
NoMoreRepugs Nov 2019 #34
Johonny Nov 2019 #36
True Blue American Nov 2019 #41

Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:02 AM

1. as long as we prevent the repugnants from inserting some backdoor clause so they can attack a POTUS

elected as a Dem

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:02 AM

2. Republicans in charge of both houses would use it to screw a Dem prez

The orange creature is only half the problem. The other half is a totally corrupt Republican Party. Until they're gone, no new laws will fix anything.

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Response to Cyrano (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:08 AM

4. Agree!

It is not just one person, the whole party has become corrupted to the bone!

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:57 AM

15. All the way down to the local governments

It is affecting local libraries, schools etc. The pain where the rubber meets the road is real.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:39 AM

24. How do things

Look in Ky. Today?

Rand Paul hated Trump, now backs him. You think that neighbor knew more than we do?

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:19 AM

32. It really could go either way.

There is A LOT of bad feeling toward the Republicans in general, more than I've seen in a long time. There's hope. Not a lot, but some.

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Response to Cyrano (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:19 AM

20. I intentionally left my OP very vague as to exactly what remedies might work in hope of having

some options developed and discussed. I read your response as "Nothing we can do" until the GOP is "gone".

Am I misreading your post?

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Response to Atticus (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:47 AM

28. That's what I'm saying. We're screwed until we get rid of the GOP

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Response to Cyrano (Reply #28)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:58 AM

31. "---get rid of---"? Converted? Deported? Outlived? Worse? nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:19 AM

33. Evolve

Republicans weren't always a crazed wingnut party. Somehow, they must cleanse themselves of insane people. Fox "news," hate radio, and hate online sites will make that difficult. Yet, it must happen if democracy is to survive.

I don't know if any of us will see a sane opposition party in our lifetimes. Yet, an opposition party is a necessity.

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Response to Cyrano (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:25 AM

35. That would be great. As you say, likely won't see it in our lifetimes. I just think there

are some things we could do during our lifetimes that might make things better even if we don't solve 100% of the problem.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Response to Cyrano (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 01:54 PM

44. I'm not so sure about that

I think Trump pushed the envelope and he exacerbated them beyond what one could ever think possible.

It doesn't look like it now, but I think a person like Romney could take over and at least give them the mask of respectability. If Romney were to be successful, he might engender a more moderate type of republican. The wack jobs would feel pressured to fall into line and over time they could be primaried out.

I do not at all like the idea that we need to get rid of republicans first. We need an organizational structure that prioritizes what we want done (or should I say undone) first. Then we need to push for it. We can't afford to wait on many of these issues.



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Response to Cyrano (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:57 AM

42. I can only hope the disease they have infected millions with is not fatal for the nation.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:03 AM

3. Un-screwing the mess he's made is going to be difficult and take time.

But it has to be a priority. There's so much damage everywhere you look. Yes, the impeachment process needs to be recalibrated and more generally there must be safeguards against widespread obstruction of the legislative branch by the executive branch. We need to bring the best and brightest legal minds into the next administration to try to figure this out.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:28 AM

5. we have the courts and they will enforce subpeonas, the issue lies

with the leadership not either being prepared or not feeling its important enough. Besides, the House has lots of power in and of itself.

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:10 AM

16. And the problem also lies in us expecting too much.

Never in a zillion years did I expect that there wouldn't have been articles drafted and ready to just append Mueller findings. Nor that we wouldn't have had a media game plan for exactly what to say then. A unified and unequivocal declaration that the crimes cited there in we're impeachable offenses. Because we had neither, his findings we're neutered and people thought - well, the nonpartisan guy spent two years looking for stuff - guess there was nothing there.

Then, Lewandowski hides behind some makeshift privilege, and gets away with it. It was a test!

It's like if you take so long making the perfect birthday cake but you don't take it out of the oven until the day after the birthday, what good is it.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:30 AM

37. many of us felt the same way that leadership was shying away from their duties

but I still think, they need to take the gloves off NOW

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 02:23 PM

46. Me too BB. And likely millions of other Dems too!

Take the stern tweets to the next level. The only one who gets all his tweets read is the monster in the room.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:40 AM

39. Spot on. We the voters need to hold everyone

accountable. The treasonous bastards with prosecution for their crimes against our country, and just penalties. And the leaders with continued activism. We cannot let this get swept aside by “looking forward”, focusing on the future. Our response as a nation to the 2007-2009 crash is partly responsible for us being where we are now.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:32 AM

6. Respectfully, dream on.

The forces that got this farce in office aren't going anywhere. They'll just pick a new horse.. and you can bet THIS is not bottom.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:39 AM

9. Unless we tax them at 90% or more

Take away their power in our decayed democracy by taking away their money. If we allow capitalism to continue in it's corrupt ways it will kill us all.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:43 AM

10. +1 Drain their money, drain their power, drain the swamp (for real this time)

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:48 AM

14. Yes, their filthy wealth is their power.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:33 AM

7. We need a LOT of new laws in regards to POTUS and POTUS candidates

POTUS candidates MUST release publicly at least 5 years of tax returns to get on the ballot in any state

POTUS candidates MUST undergo a complete psychiatric examination once they become a candidate and if there are any diagnosis of pathological mental illness (malignant narcissism, sociopathy), they must end their bid.
(pathological = untreatable, malfunction of parts of the human brain that drugs or therapy can not change or treat)

POTUS CAN be indicted while in office

Ignoring subpoenas to appear before them must have ACTUAL, IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCES (could be fines, jail, denial of funds or salaries)

Impeachment process should be re-designed to be more efficient in the case of a dangerous POTUS - with a concentration on retaining the republic and gov't institutions.

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Response to CousinIT (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:45 AM

12. Very good list. Also need more independence for DOJ.

Maybe overlap the terms for Attorney General?

And strict term limits for SCROTUS.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:12 AM

17. 2/3 majority for confirming

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Response to CousinIT (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:41 AM

25. That should b3 a Law!

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:35 AM

8. Our problem is 30% of our population

They are authoritarians.

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Response to Cary (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:46 AM

13. I bet it is less than 30%

With our gerrymandered districts, voter supression, rigged and faulty voting machines, unsecured election data, rampent propaganda, elimination of real exit polling, easy access by foreign hackers and adjusted red shift polls, it's bound to be a whole lot less.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:48 AM

29. Read "The Authoritarian Dynamic" by Karen Stenner

I am sure there are other qualified researchers who disagree but she puts it at 30%.

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Response to Cary (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:45 AM

40. Sounds like a worthy read. Noted. On the

upside, we far outnumber them. But we lack their focus and drive so we’ll have to be deliberate, persistent and vigilant.

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Response to KPN (Reply #40)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 02:13 PM

45. We have to turn out.

We outnumber them but we tend to not vote. They tend to vote.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 09:45 AM

11. The threat of something like Trump exists as long as there are Republicans breathing.

The decline has been steady the next one is hard to imagine.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:16 AM

18. Isn't that what the DOJ is supposed to do?

But the DOJ seems to be in the pocket of the Executive?

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:18 AM

19. The one thing that may end up being positive about this nightmare is the fact that the POTUS

 

has too much power, that the founders wrote the rules assuming we would never have a leech occupy the sit of the presidency. The fact that he can go around the rules and assign "acting" positions to curtail the confirmation process poses real problems.

The lack of checks and balances on a daily basis presents more problems, and many of it should have been learned during the Nixon impeachment process, but then again, regardless of what Nixon did, at the end we do have to accept that he loved his country more than himself, which is not the case with the leech we have in the White House.

The fact that he has been able to appoint his children into advisory positions and circumvent the process to provide them with security clearances needs to be fixed. trump has shown us that the presidency can be easily abused and that very few recourse is available to the Congress besides impeachment.

You are correct, if a subpoena is not answered then the full weight of the law must fall on the criminal, and the White House, the president should not have a say on whether a person answers, or not, to a subpoena. A subpoena must be answered, it must be treated with the reverence that it deserves, and if not punishment must follow.

I could go on...the point is that this should be a waking moment for the country, the president must be reigned in, and I don't mean the leech, the leech must be impeached and taken out, I mean the position of the presidency. It must be disallowed for a president to conduct private conversations with a foreign leader and not provide transcripts of it, to not have people in the room witnessing the conversation. trump discussing matters of the country with Putin in close doors and destroying the transcripts is a crime and misdemeanor, it should not be allowed. How many secrets did he tell Putin? It is treason, nothing else.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:32 AM

21. Thank you for the type of serious and thoughtful post I hoped the OP would generate.

I wonder if there could be a requirement that "acting" cabinet members, etc, be limited to 60 days duration and, if the POTUS fails to get a replacement named and approved within, say, 120 days, Congress can fill the position. I understand this amounts to the legislative branch exercising executive branch functions, but is there no amount of transparent skulduggery by which a POTUS may forfeit his or her right to choose these vital officers?

I don't pretend to have all the answers---or any of them. We need some high-level brainstorming and an openness go new ideas.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:36 AM

23. Great post

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Response to Perseus (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:42 AM

26. It seems the root of the problem is the closeness of the Executive with the DOJ?

Justice is part of the Executive Branch. But, when the AG gets too close to the President, it creates a lot of problems.

They should pass some legislation to prevent it from happening again. There should be a review board or something?

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Response to Perseus (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:34 AM

38. not clear to me that potus, per se, has too much power.

well, it is true that one of the lessons from nixon is that having an independent counsel statute would be a good idea, but republicans abused that power and then helped make it go away, clearing the way for donnie to kill an investigation into himself.

however, i think our real problem today comes from the combination of potus and a senate majority working in concert.

nixon won re-election in a massive landslide. he won 49 states. had the senate told him, don't worry, we won't remove you no matter what, he could have gotten away with murder. instead, he was forced to resign.


donnie is pushing the envelope and breaking norms and laws all over the place partially because he has a fair degree of confidence that he won't actually be removed for it.


the founders knew there would be corrupt individuals and tyrants. they expressly put in countermeasures, such as each house being able to kick out members, and of course, impeachment. what they didn't contemplate was a senate majority supporting a blatant tyrant. at least, they didn't provide a remedy for that.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 12:14 PM

43. Basically, they have contempt for the very bases of our nation, it is a nation of laws not men.

At the present they are so assured in their constituency that they can openly flout the law without repercussions. They are at the present time, successfully saying we dare you to attempt to uphold the very laws that we have sworn to protect and defend.

It is Orwellian in that the truths are lies and the lies are truth. They have become so brazen as to state that Trump's attempt to compel the Ukrainian to manufacture lies to aid his candidacy with the threat of withholding monies approved by congress for protection against the illegal invasion of their nation is not unlawful.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:35 AM

22. Trust me, when the Democrats win back the Presidency, the repugs

will start impeachment hearings the day after he or she is sworn into office. That's just the way they roll.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:47 AM

27. If Democrats get control of both houses...

... they need to act like the reverse of Mitch McTrump... only more so... being "fair" to Republicans is no longer acceptable. Change rules, seize power for the people... no more denying rights. Move to reverse Crooked Donald's decisions, even the Supreme Court picks... explore every possible way...

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 10:56 AM

30. Go see what they did when Bill Clinton took office after reagan/bush fucked the country.

The "left" were happy to help attack them then and since.

It will be the same for the next generations.

Reminder that the rumor was the repubs had a template for Clinton's impeachment before he was sworn in. They parsed every word he or Hillary said and twisted and lied about each one.

If you get a chance, go read ginrich's ethics violation paperwork. It gives an outline of how the repubs planned to use language, character assassination, rumor, innuendo, and small-time public offices to create a militarized, "christian" theocracy.

Go read through kos, du, and other left-ish websites. You'll see a lot of the same arguments from years ago.

This is just the next chapter.



edit:typo

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:19 AM

34. Impeachment process will always work just fine as long as

Rethuglicans are instigating it against a Democratic President for no real reason.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:27 AM

36. Installing a new fairness doctrine, and busting up media monopolies

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Response to Johonny (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 5, 2019, 11:52 AM

41. The decision by the Supreme Court

Citizens United destroyed our Political system.

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