HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » My technique when debatin...

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 10:42 AM

My technique when debating a trumper

is to dive deeper into their premise.

Example:

Guy at work two weeks ago tells me he's voting for trump. I ask him why. "Economy," he say's. "What else?" I ask. Crickets. He has no idea (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #1.)
I ask if he's seen trumps bullying/name calling. He has. I ask if it's appropriate for an adult to behave that way. His response; "Well, Obama..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus." I ask again; "Well, Hillary..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus again" (whataboutism). Finally after pinning him down and forcing him to answer the question, he admits name calling/bullying is wrong and it is inappropriate for an adult to behave that way (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #2.)
Does he still support him? Absolutely. He (and millions of others) suffer from a fear-induced psychosocial disorder.
I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks and my desire is that upon refection (if reflection comes at all) my friend will admit to himself his support is based primarily on fear and his thinking is irrational, illogical and absurd.
I don't expect immediate results. It's like working with addicts - it is either a growing realization that changes minds or a catastrophe (think "hitting bottom" for alcoholics.) His journey out of fear is his own. My yelling at him would do nothing. All I can do is hopefully help him break through his cognitive dissonance.

47 replies, 5096 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 47 replies Author Time Post
Reply My technique when debating a trumper (Original post)
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 OP
LonePirate Nov 2019 #1
SummerSnow Nov 2019 #6
Duppers Nov 2019 #14
hibbing Nov 2019 #17
bitterross Nov 2019 #21
The Wizard Nov 2019 #2
safeinOhio Nov 2019 #3
Redleg Nov 2019 #20
PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2019 #4
gulliver Nov 2019 #5
RichardRay Nov 2019 #7
Newest Reality Nov 2019 #23
intrepidity Nov 2019 #29
RichardRay Nov 2019 #39
evilhime Nov 2019 #8
Duppers Nov 2019 #15
samplegirl Nov 2019 #32
bmpbmp Nov 2019 #9
Farmer-Rick Nov 2019 #10
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #25
MrScorpio Nov 2019 #11
Delmette2.0 Nov 2019 #12
KY_EnviroGuy Nov 2019 #36
Delmette2.0 Nov 2019 #38
KY_EnviroGuy Nov 2019 #40
Delmette2.0 Nov 2019 #42
andym Nov 2019 #13
Pepsidog Nov 2019 #16
Scotch-Irish Nov 2019 #22
SWBTATTReg Nov 2019 #18
Arthur_Frain Nov 2019 #19
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #27
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #34
KentuckyWoman Nov 2019 #24
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #35
Cary Nov 2019 #26
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #28
live love laugh Nov 2019 #30
NCLefty Nov 2019 #31
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #33
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #46
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2019 #47
KY_EnviroGuy Nov 2019 #37
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #44
Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2019 #41
Comatose Sphagetti Nov 2019 #45
lunatica Nov 2019 #43

Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 10:49 AM

1. It's not the economy. It's the racism and hatred and anger which they support.

Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:57 AM - Edit history (1)

You should have called out the lie up front because if it was truly the economy that mattered, he would have voted for Clinton to continue the Obama economy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:48 AM

6. Bingo!! k&r

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:40 PM

14. Yes! 👍

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:46 PM

17. +3

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 01:08 PM

21. The "economy" is now a code word for racism

 

People will say it's the economy but they haven't the foggiest clue as to how they have actually been impacted by Trump's economy. They've forgotten the higher bill they had in April of this year already. There has been too much other junk pushed out by FOX and other media since then.

What they can see is his racism and bigotry. They can see him making sure he keeps those "uppity n-word" down and that he's making sure those greedy "illegals" are not getting their jobs and benefits. Not that these people are working any jobs or getting any benefits the undocumented people would work or get in the first place.

What they like is his outright hostility. It mirrors their anger for things over which they have no control. It's an outlet for them. He gives them direction on where to spend that anger and energy. It's at all the wrong people, but they love it anyway because they are so low-information.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 10:52 AM

2. Many need cult deprogramming

with a professional. The cognitive dissonance, it burns itself into the unconscious like a branding iron would.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:09 AM

3. Forget CBT, go with Skinnerian Radical Behaviorism.

Ignore bad behavior and praise good behavior. Works with pets, children and trumpers. All of which are seeking attention.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 01:03 PM

20. The problem with operant conditioning

is that while we may ignore the bad behavior, others will likely reinforce the behavior, thus no extinction of the behavior.

Winning an argument with a wing-nut is one thing, but changing the voting behavior is an entirely different beast. How can you overcome the constant and overwhelming disinformation these wingers get from their fellow travelers and from Faux News?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:26 AM

4. Very good.

Too often they're allowed to go on with the "Well, Obama..." or "Well, Hillary..."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:39 AM

5. It's the Obama economy

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:50 AM

7. Pace & Lead

NLP Basics

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RichardRay (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 01:42 PM

23. Yes...

...and be able to create and break rapport at will, make and break states, etc.

I have often enjoyed the occasional and well-timed/paced "How do you know that?" said with sincere curiosity. I have seen people break state suddenly and look completely bit awestruck, which is a program exit, often. Using "how" is, of course, process over content.

NLP is a diverse bag of tools and the collection is growing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Newest Reality (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:50 PM

29. More, please?

I need more tools for such discussions, do you have a handy link with relevent examples? I'm at my wit's end. Thanks.

I use the "false premise" and strawman objections, although usually they just get louder after that.

Walking away not an option, unfortunately.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to intrepidity (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 11:14 AM

39. See

NLP oversold itself badly during its heyday. It grouped in width est, Tony Robbins, and workshop like Life-spring. It’s not the panacea its over-enthusiastic supporters sometime claim, and it *does* provide a useful framework and some effective communications techniques.

See

https://www.nlp-techniques.org/what-is-nlp/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:53 AM

8. True story!!

I have a good friend, a very intelligent (in all other ways) person who when politics comes up and I start pointing out things like that I get responses like "you are more researched than I am, I cannot argue with you so we agree to disagree." Say what? <le sigh>

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to evilhime (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:42 PM

15. So he disagrees with facts?

And logic?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to evilhime (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 07:36 AM

32. I've gotten that response before

No I don’t agree to disagree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:59 AM

9. More than anything...

they just want to be right. Even if it's wrong. Alternative facts.

If they have no basis (which they don't), despite that they'll argue the sun doesn't set in the west, in fact the sun doesn't set at all. Their whole point is not to agree with you, because you're not one of them. Remember cooties in grade school? We got'em and they don't want'em. Anything that's based on critical thinking, science, or logic they don't want being forced into their brain.

I honestly tried to reason, to change a few of them. The lesson I learned is they're gonna be the way they're gonna be. The only way they're going to change is if they get sick of being the way they are. That's the only way.

In the meantime, America is stuck with 30-40% of its citizens being completely disconnected with reality and truth. And that's gonna continue to fuck up this country for decades to come.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:59 AM

10. It's a very useful technique. You may not change that person's mind right then

But you have them thinking and anyone else listening will think too.

It's a technique that Matt Dillahunty on the Aithiest Experience uses a lot on thiest apologists. It doesn't change their mind when they realize the Christian god supports slavery, it just makes them think and makes others watching the show think too.

Keep it up, maybe we get you a call-in show called the Liberal Experince.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:00 PM

25. Yep, "...have them thinking ..."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:01 PM

11. These people are looking for validation

I refuse to give it to them. It’s amazing how getting them to realize that very things also gets them to leave me alone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:11 PM

12. Another true encounter with a RW'er, 6 years ago.

I was sitting at a kiosk ordering pictures from my son's wedding. A total stranger stopped behind me, said "hi, how ya doing?" I said "just fine". He then said" Did you know Obama is taking away our civil liberties?" I acted surprised and asked "Oh, which ones?" He had a blank look on his face and walked away. These folks have been around for a long time. Some have figured out to STFU others haven't.

I still wish he had stuck around to talk more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Delmette2.0 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:30 AM

36. They have plenty of talking points but zero listening or learning points.

........

Obama was threatening his liberty to be racist......

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #36)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:12 AM

38. It's always difficult for them to discuss specifics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Delmette2.0 (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 05:54 PM

40. Most I encounter are superficial and arrogant.

My personality type does not do high speed verbal encounters well, so I don't bother arguing with them.

We had one at our door today campaigning and we just shooed him away. Wanted to start a discussion about sanctuary cities without recognition that America was in essence built by refugees and migrants.

KY........

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 06:00 PM

42. One thing about living in the North Rocky Mtns

This time of year no one wants to canvass door to door.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:24 PM

13. Folks programmed by Fox, talk radio and targeted Facebook ads need deprogramming

And that won't happen while they are allowed to spew. Taking Facebook out of the equation would be big if it happened, but there still would be Fox, Rush etc. You are face a uphill battle, but it's worth trying.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:43 PM

16. As long as Fox continues to reinforce the Republican lies they will never change. We have to force

Fox to change. I don’t know how but Fox and Murdoch are the villains of our time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pepsidog (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 01:28 PM

22. SO so so true! Everyone keeps looking around like they don't understand how we got here.

 

It's simple. In the 1990's rush limpballs started pounding racism and hate into their brains and creating the cult experience, Ann Coultergeist backed it up, and Fox "news" keeps the programming going.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:52 PM

18. All I will say is that rump is going to screw up (besides the numerous times already), and he's...

going to screw up big time w/ his so called supporters...something is going to slip out, about how he truly feels about these supporters, and then the game will be over with. If you want to see cratering, just wait until he opens his mouth once too many times the wrong way, and bam!

Hey, w/ the way he's cratering the economy with his stupid mouth and so called tax cuts for all (it's really for the 1%ers, not us)...it won't take too much longer...just a matter of time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 12:54 PM

19. Are you trained in the profession or just giving out free advice?

I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks....


Um, you make it sound like you’ve got them on the couch.

my friend will admit to himself his.......


Yeah, this never happens either.

MY experiences with supporters of trump have been very, very different. These people have been groomed for years, CS, years. They’ve been listening to right wing radio, clicking on the feeder ads online, watching Fox News. All of those sources have resourced decades of research on human psychology, and neither you nor me is going to undo in a 15 minute conversation in the Starbucks what a decade or more of conditioning have set in goddamn stone.

At worst, the “debate” deteriorates into ad hominem or worse, at best, I can generally tell by the set of their jaw, that I will be the subject of mirth at the next chumper get together they attend.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:09 PM

27. Trained

CBT doesn't always work, and it takes time. But I find it gets better results than the "fuck it" technique.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:12 AM

34. Don't think the OP implies that you can fix a trumper

In 15 min. And you are right, they've been programmed for years.

I am very curious about techniques to change their minds though. I think Beto's was effective when he was running for Senate. He figured out what appealed to Texans universally and played on that. He didn't belittle. For instance, he would go into little towns and say..."you know what bothers me? That Texas is ranked so low in education." No finger pointing or blame. "We are people who can do anything, right? Why can't we concentrate on getting so our great state is number one? " Appeal to pride.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 01:59 PM

24. Here's what works for me.

We can agree Trump has a big personality.

In all cases I find out what their big reason is to support Trump. What issue/s, and make it about the issue FIRST. Then we see how Trump matches it. I am giving THEM an opportunity to win me over. If I get "well Obama" or "well Hillary" I explain they aren't running. This is what we have to choose from, and if Trump doesn't fit the leadership need we have right now ... what other of the candidates available better fits the issues they hold dear.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:14 AM

35. Got that far with two people and they both said Tulsi

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:08 PM

26. I suspect there isn't much difference between addicts and cult followers,

at.least in trying to reason with them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cary (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:09 PM

28. This. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 02:26 AM

30. Good luck deprogramming Cult45 Republiclowns 🤡

At this point I see them as hopeless. They can fuck off and I tell them so at every opportunity I get.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 02:30 AM

31. You're... you're the bravest man in the world.

:p

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 07:59 AM

33. Like where you are going but what would be

The steps between your getting him to admit that he doesn't like name calling and the "fear" ??

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:04 PM

46. My friend uses rationalization, minimization,

justification, denial, etc. as an avoidance method (he doesn't see this.)

For him to be wrong about trump would affect his ego; his sense of self. It would make him question his values, his ideology, the like-minded around him - including authority figures, community, church, and cherished loved ones. He doesn't want to go there. That's where the fear comes in (again, he doesn't see this.)

CBT breaks through the rationalization, minimization, etc., and forces people to confront psychological inconsistencies. For my friend to admit that trump's behavior is unacceptable is a small crack in the delusion that trump is the savior he believes him to be. That small crack can sometimes lead to a flood of critical thinking and self awareness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:51 PM

47. This seems so rational. Why is it that you don't hear of politicians or advisors dont

Take these concepts and apply them to their speeches and interviews to attract trump voters

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 08:45 AM

37. Most humans will grasp at anything they perceive to alleviate fear, even when....

the "thing" is that which causes the fear.

Works well in religion, some drugs and politics.......

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 07:27 PM

44. This. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 05:57 PM

41. Thanks for sharing

It just occurred to me too that if they start with the "whataboutism", they've already conceded the argument and admitting that Trump is in the wrong. The "whataboutism" is really about justifying their ongoing support of Trump IN SPITE OF his behavior by making it seem that since Obama did "it" or Hillary did "it", it's ok for Trump to do it- essentially normalizing whatever they're trying to justify. And oftentimes, they're trying to compare apples to oranges.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 06:07 PM

43. The extra taxes they paid definitely contributed to the economy

and it helps Trump when he charges the taxpayers for all his golfing trips. And for the building of the minuscule amount of the wall. They have to offset the tax giveaways to his rich friends.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread