Was Jeffrey Epstein murdered?

[Cary]

Was Jeffrey Epstein murdered?

44 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	No, it was suicide.
	11 (25%)
	Yes, and it was both Republicans and Democrats.
	1 (2%)
	Yes, and it was Republicans.
	29 (66%)
	Yes, and it was Democrats.
	2 (5%)
	Yes, and it was neither Republicans nor Democrats.
	1 (2%)
	Other, please state your theory.
	0 (0%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Cary]

1. If they can lie us into a war, and institute torture, and give us Orange Hitler,

what's stopping them?

[jberryhill]

36. So, you are going with "she's a liar"?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212385118

The Pioneering Woman Of Science Whom DUers Are Going To Attack And Smear



Because someone hired by Epstein's lawyers, and who thinks OJ and Phil Spector didn't do it, has more weight for you than someone with no agenda who works for a Democratic city government?

[2naSalit]

2. It was whomever decided that

he was too dangerous for their criminal enterprise which is currently being protected by mostly republicans.

[essme]

3. Maybe

I am sure some folks wanted him gone.

Or maybe he killed himself. At that point he didn't have much to live for.

[brooklynite]

4. The problem with most conspiracy theories is you need another conspiracy theory to explain them

Jeffrey Epstein attempted suicide in July. He was put on suicide watch until his attorney asked that he be taken off. So apparently his attorney is now part of the conspiracy to allow him to be killed, right?

[StarfishSaver]

6. Another problem is that conspiracy theories can never be disproven, because any evidence

that could disprove them is seen as further proof of the existence of the conspiracy ("They conspired to plant that evidence that makes it look like it wasn't a conspiracy&quot .

[Cary]

10. I like to think of myself as disinclined towards conspiracy theories

I am slightly persuaded by Epstein's lawyers' medical examiner and I don't see how, if it was murder, Republicans are not responsible.

Can I still keep my idea of myself as disinclined toward conspiracy theories?

[StarfishSaver]

12. I'm also very skeptical of conspiracy theories, but that doesn't mean that they don't ever exist

or that I cannot be convinced that a conspiracy is involved in certain instances.

[Me.]

76. Exactly...As HRC Proved

[jberryhill]

39. "I am slightly persuaded by Epstein's lawyers' medical examiner"

A/K/A, the guy who testified for the defense in the OJ trial and the Phil Spector trial, because he's so unbiased compared to Barbara Sampson.



Of course, the "guy hired by Epstein's lawyers" is the one you believe.

Could you elaborate on what makes him more believable? Is it because he is a man? Or is it because he has a PR machine pumping out his bullshit?

[Cary]

42. Could you elaborate on what makes him more believable?

No.

[jberryhill]

45. But you give more credence to the guy hired by Epstein's lawyers

You are free to believe whom you like.

Odd choice, though.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/30/top-medical-examiner-defends-epstein-suicide-ruling/

Top medical examiner defends Epstein suicide ruling

Despite the renewed speculation, Sampson quelled any possibility of another official investigation.

“The original medical investigation was thorough and complete,” said Sampson. “There is no reason for a second medical investigation by our office.”

So, let's hear it.

Is she stupid? Paid off? Threatened into cowardice?

Or is it because she is a highly qualified woman working for a Democratic administration?

I want to know.

[Cary]

47. And you're free to believe The New York Post

[jberryhill]

48. Ha, ha, ha, ha...

The New York Post is inaccurately reporting on what Dr. Sampson had to say about her study?

Are you trying to suggest that the Post is lying about what Sampson said?

So, in your world, Sampson has changed her mind, and the Post fabricated a reaction story about her.

Okay. I didn't realize how deep your rabbit hole goes.

You have yourself a great day.

[cwydro]

13. This.

+1000

[Polybius]

21. Show me one interview where he said he attempted murder in July

His lawyer said no from the start.

[jberryhill]

37. "His lawyer said no from the start"

Ah, yes, well-known trustworthy sources on DU - Epstein's lawyers.

[StarfishSaver]

5. I don't know

[Cary]

8. Of course you don't know

If you did know you wouldn't be saying anything here, I hope. It is pure conjecture.

[StarfishSaver]

9. What an odd comment

And why direct it at me only, since it applies to anyone answering your poll?

Or maybe you shouldn't have included an option for "other" in your poll if you weren't interested in the answer.

[Cary]

11. Oddly enough I was answering YOUR POST!

Geez.

[StarfishSaver]

14. I know. That's why I responded. It was an odd comment to address only to one who says I don't know

Since your comment would just as easily apply to someone who answered Yes or No.

[Cary]

15. I was affirming you

[Corgigal]

73. I don't know either.

Just the video cameras, both of them no working gives me pause.

Bill Barr is working on how this could have happened, which again , gives me pause.

[StarfishSaver]

74. There are a lot of strange things involved here

But, on the other hand, Epstein committing suicide is perfectly plausible under the circumstances, so ...

[exboyfil]

7. He was Frankie Five Angeled

Still the cameras not working makes me wonder if that wasn't the back up.

[USALiberal]

16. Really? 70%? nt

[jberryhill]

29. Herd mentality

[USALiberal]

60. Scary really! Nt

[jberryhill]

62. Right out of Trump TV...

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden

Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003. In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).

[Recursion]

17. He was exfiltrated and is living on an island with Tupac

At least, to the extent I have conspiratorial thoughts, it's that: Mossad (or whoever he was actually working for) broke him out of jail and is hiding him.

[Wounded Bear]

18. I'm gonna go with "Probably but they're hiding it well"...

[Buckeyeblue]

19. I don't think so. It was over for him. The prosecution was going to continue to add more charges

Why would he want to live the rest of his life as a target in prison?

[Polybius]

20. He did have customers on both sides

Trump paled around with him for many years, and Bill Richardson and George Mitchell were linked to him the night before he was murdered. So I'm sure both sides are happy he's gone. It's the one bi-partisan thing both sides are happy with.

Besides politicians, he was linked to show business. He was also linked to many judges. Perhaps they had him killed?

[Arthur_Frain]

22. You do realize the optics of this right?

I mean Hillary Clinton was running a child prostitution ring out of the basement of the pizza shop next door all through 2016, so I’m just a little gun shy about this kind of conjecture.

[exboyfil]

52. The most high profile prisoner in the federal system

Two guards asleep and multiple cameras not working?

I frankly think his suicide was facilitated, but that crap needs to be pursued.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. You know this issue is being amplified a lot by the trolls on social media, right?

And while I bet you want to think they’re trying to point at Trump as the culprit, believe me, they’re not.

It’s a planned distraction. Don’t fall for it.

As for the question itself, Epstein was looking at life in prison. No one would ever cut him a deal again or have much incentive to believe whatever stories he told.

So no.

[Cary]

24. I saw it discussed on MSNBC and the NYT

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. Yes but the JeffreyEpsteinDidntKillHimself tag has quickly become memeified

And it’s pretty clear why.

[lunasun]

51. ++I wish more would see this for what it is - Look over here/ talk about this instead now

[jberryhill]

28. Precisely - and on DU

Virtually no one bothered to listen to the 23 victims who testified.

The belief that silencing Epstein would somehow cover up the “McMartin Pre-School of 2019” conspiracy involving a large pedophile ring requires the believer to ignore the actual Epstein victims.

[duforsure]

26. Bill Barr is going to have a lot

To answer for , and with trump and others.

[rampartc]

27. epstein is alive

if he were dead his insurance files would have been released.

[Me.]

77. Alive, Well & Living With Ken Lay

[OliverQ]

30. Yup. I'm sure Barr had him murdered to prevent him

implicating Trump and Republicans.

[jberryhill]

33. Why did Barr have him arrested in the first place?

Since you are "sure" this is what happened, then you must have thought this through very carefully.

Were they unable to kill him without first drawing media attention to him with the arrest?

[OliverQ]

38. Who said Barr had him arrested?

He was arrested by the FBI and NYPD task force that fights crimes against children.

[jberryhill]

40. On a DoJ indictment

[leftstreet]

85. Searches, seizures, etc

LOL not saying I believe he was murdered, but I did always wonder if the arrest was primarily to get all his documents, files, laptops, etc

[Loki Liesmith]

31. Lol no

I’ll never make fun of republicans as conspiracy nutters again after what Ive seen on my side.

[Cary]

32. You think that's fair?

I wouldn't put it past Orange Hitler. I don't think we have seen his bottom line. Do you?

[jberryhill]

35. Do you think going after Barbara Sampson is fair?

[Cary]

43. You think Orange Hitler will murder Barbara Sampson?

[jberryhill]

46. Total non-sequitur

No, I don't think he will.

I'm asking what is YOUR problem with her.

[Cary]

49. When I find people who appear to take themselves too seriously I tend to mock them

You could dial it down a notch or two.

[jberryhill]

50. I dislike RW propaganda

I dislike it even more when it wears a disguise of not being RW propaganda.

[Cary]

55. I dislike rude, condescending, and obnoxious behavior

I dislike it even more when it wears a disguise of sanctimony.

[jberryhill]

58. Well, there's always Fox News

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2019, 11:38 AM - Edit history (1)

Since no respectable media will have him on to promote his nonsense:



He's a Fox News contributor.

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden

Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003. In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).

That's the guy you find persuasive.

[Cary]

63. I didn't say I found him persuasive.

I find it to be rude and obnoxious when people put words in my mouth.

[jberryhill]

65. Who wrote these words

Who wrote these words in this very thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212649762#post10

"I am slightly persuaded by Epstein's lawyers' medical examiner..."

I took the words "I am slightly persuaded by Epstein's lawyers' medical examiner" to mean that you are slightly persuaded by Epstein's lawyers' medical examiner.

[Cary]

67. If you're going to tell me what my words meant then you will discuss them alone

I f you want to be civil and consider the context I would consider engaging you. But I am more than slightly persuaded at this point that you have no interest in being civil.

[jberryhill]

34. You should have been around when the 9/11 forum was in full swing

The "Creative Speculation" forum used to be the 9/11 forum. During the Bush administration, it was where you could come to DU and learn about silent nano-thermite explosives, fake planes, fictional death tolls, and all manner of "facts".

Because "Creative Speculation" is not as clear as to "what stuff goes here", then the tinfoil hat stuff goes in GD now.

But, as the poll indicates, this one is popular because it involves the centuries-old hook of a secret cabal doing harm to children, which is always popular - from the "Franklin Scandal", the "Satanic Panic" and back into its medieval origins as anti-semitic propaganda, this particular trope is deeply hooked to some aspect of social psychology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

The SRA panic repeated many of the features of historical moral panics and conspiracy theories, such as the blood libel against Jews by Apion in the 30s CE, the wild rumors that led to the persecutions of early Christians in the Roman Empire, later allegations of Jewish rituals involving the killing of Christian babies and desecration of the Eucharist, and the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries.Allegations of horrific acts by outsider groups—including cannibalism, child murder, torture and incestuous orgies—may have served as a form of othering for minority groups, as well scapegoat explanations for complex problems in times of social disruption.

[Arazi]

41. I dont know but lean towards the theory Epstein was given the tools/time/space to kill himself

The cameras being "out" and the guards conveniently "asleep" are not coincidences imo

[Cary]

44. Suspicious indeed.

[exboyfil]

53. Frankie Five Angels

I agree with you. That alone is a thread that needs to be pulled. Everyone involved should go to prison.

[brush]

54. Barr visited the jail the week before Epstein was found dead...

while guards were conveniently on break and surveillance cameras were malfunctioning.

Yeah, right. He killed himself.

[MrScorpio]

56. Who had the means, motive and opportunity to murder him and make it look like a suicide?

Anyone has any answers?

[Cary]

57. None of us know.

It is pure speculation but nevertheless some see it as an opportunity to condescend.

[jberryhill]

59. Fox News Has The Answer....

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden

Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003. In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).

So, why is Trump TV promoting this?

Because they have very good reasons to do so.

[USALiberal]

61. The one armed man did it! Nt

[ismnotwasm]

64. No

He was a despicable human being called to justice. From all I’ve read, he loved his opulent comforts, his perversions, his power. He killed himself.

[Act_of_Reparation]

66. Truth by majority consensus, eh?

Very modern of us.

[Cary]

68. Who said anything about "Truth by majority consensus?"

Where did you pull that from?

[LanternWaste]

69. Or maybe just simple and idle speculation.

But sure... jump to one and only one absolute and predicate a collective generalization from that. Very modern, indeed.

[Act_of_Reparation]

71. Or maybe this wasn't posted in a vacuum.

But hey, when the post hoc justification fits!

[Cary]

72. This is DU

What else would be here other than idle speculation?

[Bradical79]

70. I'm about 60/40 on him being murdered

I'm not going aassume any specific perpetrator though. He was associated with a lot of amoral scumbags.

Also seen a number of times where there have been enough screwups to create a surface appearence of wrongdoing where there was none.

[Bettie]

75. There were a whole lot of

coincidental irregularities in how he was handled.

But, I don't necessarily think it was Republicans, but there were a lot of old, rich, powerful, white guys who could have been damaged if he talked. He could have brought down a whole lot of powerful people.

So, either it was arranged for his suicide to be allowed or he was assisted with it.

We'll never really know and it doesn't much matter at this point, as none of his victims will ever see justice and the involved powerful men no longer have to worry about being exposed.

[jberryhill]

82. Why can't the victims identify them?

23 of them testified, so it's not as if their tongues were cut out.

[Bettie]

83. "Teenage Escorts"

versus very wealthy, powerful men who will deny everything.

Wow, imagine thinking that won't ever go anywhere!

[jberryhill]

86. Epstein was a wealthy powerful man who denied everything

And yet the victims still testified, and one of them is pursuing a civil suit against the Epstein employees who worked to supply him.

[Polybius]

78. 76% od DUers say yes

No is at 21%, and 3% say other, whatever that means.

[MineralMan]

88. None of that means a damned thing.

Nobody here has any actual information on the cause of death. Not one.

Waste of time.

[Polybius]

89. Probably no one

However it's possible that maybe someone is on DU that worked in that jail and knew someone or something.

[MineralMan]

90. Do you see anyone like that here? I don't.

Is anyone here telling what they actually saw? No? Then never mind.

The odds against anyone who knows anything first-hand about this being on DU are almost infinite.

Were you there? Do you know anyone who was there? Has anyone told you he or she was there? No? Then you know nothing about any of it for a fact.

[MarcA]

79. I see the usual anti-conspiracy theorist liberal mindset is active.

Instead let's keep searching.

[redstatebluegirl]

80. Yea, I left my tin hat at home today sorry.

[gldstwmn]

81. We will never know.

It does seem he outlived his usefulness to Trump though.

[Midnight Writer]

84. I am a long time "conspiracy theorist" and I don't put much stock in Doctor Baden.

He is well credentialed, but if you read transcripts of his testimonies, he often retreats to "probable" and 'possibly" when challenged in court.

[MineralMan]

87. Polls can't establish facts. Polls are just people's guesses. Nobody here knows.

Not a single one of us here on DU has any evidence at all of anything. All we have is reporting.

Bottom line: The official autopsy and coroner's report says suicide. That's what it will be from now on. There is no way to go back and start over again.

Polls like this one are a waste of time. Totally. There is one authority on the cause of death, and that authority has made its judgment. We should move on to other things that are still pending, not keep replaying things that have been decided already.

[Cary]

92. If that is the standard why discuss anything?

On 99% of the matters discussed here none of us have personal knowledge none of us are going to change anything.

[MarcA]

93. Because when "authority" speaks you're suppose to sit down and shut up,

in the bold tradition of Progressive values.

[Cary]

94. I'm sorry you feel that way

[MarcA]

95. Sorry. Didn't think I needed too include the word snark in my comments. n/t

[ooky]

91. Cameras were off, indicating the likelihood of foul play.

Trump had the most to gain by silencing him. It happened so fast.

I don't believe in coincidences, I think Trump/Barr had him murdered to keep him from taking Trump down.