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Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:23 PM

Famous pathologist Michael Baden says Epstein body shows signs of homicide

The link takes you to the main page but if you click on the link ‘The Hill at the end of the paragraph it takes you to the following

https://politicalwire.com/2019/10/30/pathologist-suggests-jeffrey-epstein-was-murdered

Epstein family pathologist says financier's body shows signs of homicid A forensic pathologist hired by Jeffrey Epstein's brother to look into his suicide said on Wednesday that the convicted sex offender's body showed a number of signs of homicide, contradicting a medical examiner ruling that Epstein's death was a suicide.

Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner who has been hired Epstein’s brother to look into the matter, offered the remarks on “Fox & Friends.”


“I think the evidence points to a homicide rather than a suicide,” he said.

“Because there are three fractures in the hyoid bone, the thyroid cartilage that are very unusual for suicide and more indicative of strangulation — homicidal strangulation,” Baden added.

New York City officials determined Epstein’s death was a suicide in August. He was found dead in his cell in the Metropolitan Correctional Center in the city the week prior. The financier was held at the facility beginning in July after being arrested for federal sex trafficking charges.

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Reply Famous pathologist Michael Baden says Epstein body shows signs of homicide (Original post)
lunatica Oct 31 OP
lunatica Oct 31 #1
empedocles Oct 31 #2
triron Oct 31 #11
hlthe2b Oct 31 #3
jberryhill Oct 31 #5
lunatica Oct 31 #8
jberryhill Oct 31 #10
lunatica Oct 31 #23
jberryhill Oct 31 #24
TheRealNorth Oct 31 #31
hlthe2b Oct 31 #14
jberryhill Oct 31 #16
hlthe2b Oct 31 #18
Celerity Oct 31 #22
Kingofalldems Nov 1 #51
jberryhill Nov 4 #61
hlthe2b Oct 31 #12
jberryhill Oct 31 #15
hlthe2b Oct 31 #17
Kingofalldems Nov 1 #52
Hermit-The-Prog Oct 31 #28
smirkymonkey Oct 31 #42
jberryhill Oct 31 #43
smirkymonkey Oct 31 #45
jberryhill Oct 31 #46
smirkymonkey Oct 31 #47
jberryhill Oct 31 #48
smirkymonkey Oct 31 #49
lunatica Oct 31 #6
jberryhill Oct 31 #7
lunatica Oct 31 #9
jberryhill Oct 31 #13
lunatica Oct 31 #25
jberryhill Oct 31 #4
hlthe2b Oct 31 #19
jberryhill Oct 31 #21
kskiska Nov 1 #53
PSPS Oct 31 #20
jberryhill Oct 31 #26
lunatica Oct 31 #34
LineLineLineLineReply .
jberryhill Oct 31 #36
lunatica Oct 31 #37
jberryhill Oct 31 #40
lunatica Oct 31 #41
lunatica Oct 31 #27
PSPS Oct 31 #29
lunatica Oct 31 #32
PSPS Oct 31 #38
lunatica Oct 31 #39
Act_of_Reparation Nov 4 #58
LanternWaste Nov 4 #60
jberryhill Nov 4 #62
lunatica Oct 31 #35
Major Nikon Nov 4 #57
BlueTsunami2018 Oct 31 #30
lunatica Oct 31 #33
smirkymonkey Oct 31 #44
leftstreet Nov 4 #59
real Cannabis calm Nov 1 #50
X_Digger Nov 1 #54
jberryhill Nov 4 #55
Major Nikon Nov 4 #56
lunatica Nov 4 #63

Response to lunatica (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:24 PM

1. I think Trump was involved in some way.

He has plenty to cover up on this.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:25 PM

2. fox touched on epstein lightly at the end of the 4p news hour yesterday

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Response to lunatica (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:46 PM

11. And Barr.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:27 PM

3. I have my doubts that we will ever know the truth on this one...

too many had motivations for him not to talk and there was so much money among those in his circle that anything is possible.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:34 PM

5. Do you think the victims weren't telling the truth?

23 of them testified in this proceeding.

Why didn't anyone prevent them from talking? They still live and they still know what happened to them.


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/jeffrey-epstein-women-victims-testify-court-quotes

23 Women Stood In Court And Said Jeffrey Epstein Abused Them. Here Are Their Most Powerful Quotes.

One by one, with many in tears, the women described how Epstein manipulated, coerced, threatened, and sexually abused them when they were just teens.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-accuser-names-four-women-his-web-enablers-n1063801?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Jeffrey Epstein accuser names four women in his web of enablers

Jennifer Araoz, who first told her story to NBC News in July, accused four people by name of helping facilitate Epstein’s abuse of her starting when she was 14 years old.

The four include Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s longtime companion; Rosalyn Fontanilla, a former housekeeper who died in 2016; Lesley Groff, who worked as his secretary, and Cimberly Espinosa, a former executive assistant to Epstein, according to the court papers obtained by NBC News.


https://jezebel.com/the-real-jeffrey-epstein-scandal-has-unfolded-in-front-1837171412

And just when it seemed that Epstein was actually going to be held accountable for those many, well documented offenses, yet again, he’s escaped. Epstein’s apparent suicide this week—and the conspiracy theories and bad media coverage around it—obscures the real scandal as it was just beginning to emerge. At some point, perhaps, if we’re very lucky, the overheated speculation around Epstein’s death may turn to introspection. It might be worth asking ourselves, for instance, why the public is so much more engaged by Epstein’s bizarre jailhouse death than in listening to his living victims, or questioning the many shameless hucksters who have tried to use their pain for their own political and financial ends. In part, that’s because Epstein’s case has been inextricably linked with conspiracy for such a long time, making it near impossible for the lived experience of his victims to ever be fully heard over the din.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:39 PM

8. Where does the poster say or suggest the victims weren't telling the truth?

Never knowing what may have happened is not an exoneration.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:45 PM

10. "I have doubts we'll ever know the truth"

Why can't we hear the truth from the victims?

23 of them testified. Was that not the truth?

Given that many of them are speaking - and virtually no one is listening - it just happens to strike me as dismissive of the victims to think that Epstein's death means we can't know the truth.

Were we going to hear the truth from Epstein? I just don't get it. He wasn't going to testify in his own trial (as is the case with most criminal defendants). Or is the idea that he was just going to admit to everything in the indictment?

And, speaking of the indictment against him, was it not "the truth"?

It's a puzzling statement that somehow Epstein's death renders the truth inaccessible.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:07 PM

23. The truth referenced here is about his death, not what the victims say.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:10 PM

24. So I gather

The statement was ambiguous. I read it the other way. No animals were harmed in the discussion of this topic.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:22 PM

31. That what I understood the OP to be referring to

He was referring to the truth (circumstances) around Epstein's death, not what he did (although a trial may have exposed additional crimes).

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Response to lunatica (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:48 PM

14. Exactly, Lunatica. When NO ONE here that I have EVER seen has EVER doubted victims

and yet he jumped to that conclusion tells me something that I'd rather not have realized about his intent or at least tactics.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:50 PM

16. Your statement was about "the truth on this one"


As many people seem to believe that Epstein's death makes it impossible to know the extent of his crimes, then it is not a non-sequitur to point out that the victims are still walking and talking, but hardly anyone is listening.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:53 PM

18. As I said you are being intentionally obtuse & I'm done with this. No one on DU has ever suggested

what you are accusing me of.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:07 PM

22. the poster (obviously) meant the truth on how he died & who was involved if he was indeed taken out

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 1, 2019, 02:40 PM

51. Amazing eh?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 11:02 AM

61. Almost as amazing as promoting a paid Fox News contributor on DU


The statement to which I responded was ambiguous.

But there is nothing ambiguous about the person being promoted as a "famous pathologist" in the OP of this thread:

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden


Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003. In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).


But I guess that openly promoting a Fox News shit shoveler is not so "amazing".

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:47 PM

12. Not even remotely related to what I am saying. I said we may never know truth about his death..

Get a damned grip. Nowhere have I ever suggested I don't believe the victims. What the hell?! You immediately jump on that assumption? Really? I will leave it there because what I really want to say to you won't fly. But I am disgusted.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:49 PM

15. You suggest that many people had motivations to silence him


But 23 victims showed up, and were not silent.

So, what good does killing him do?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:51 PM

17. I am not talking about victims. You don't have a damned clue apparently.

But your accusations towards other DUers on this is beyond the pale. I will not be addressing you or your insinuations further.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 1, 2019, 02:41 PM

52. It's called thread hijacking.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:18 PM

28. co-conspirators had motivation to silence him

It is likely that Epstein knew quite a bit more about the victimizers than what the victims can tell us. It is not unreasonable to assume he got some of his riches, and some of his ability to escape investigation and punishment in the past, by way of blackmail.

It is reasonable to assume that he took some secrets to his grave.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:00 PM

42. I don't think the victims were the one's who would have wanted to silence him.

It would have been the other powerful men that full knowledge of what went on in Epstien's house of horrors would have brought down. Silencing him forever means that their "reputations" stay intact.

I don't think anyone ever thought that the victims were suspect.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:01 PM

43. 23 of them testified


Do you know how many of them said anything about other powerful men?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #43)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:04 PM

45. Obviously he procured young women and possibly young men for people other than

himself. They didn't have to say anything then and there. Eventually the whole sordid story would have come out if he decided to make a plea deal.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:08 PM

46. Huh?


I'm not sure what this means:

They didn't have to say anything then and there. Eventually the whole sordid story would have come out if he decided to make a plea deal.

Umm, he was dead. They were completely aware that he was dead, and this was the ONLY opportunity they were going to have to tell their stories.

I don't understand what you are saying there at all, and perhaps there are words missing or something?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/27/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-hearing-victims.html

Jeffrey Epstein’s Victims, Denied a Trial, Vent Their Fury: ‘He Is a Coward’

“The fact I will never have a chance to face my predator in court eats away at my soul,” one of Jeffrey Epstein’s accusers said at the first hearing after he committed suicide in jail.


--------------------------

You do understand that these victims all testified in a session conducted after he was dead, yes?

If they "didn't have to say anything then and there", then when and where would the opportunity arise again?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:15 PM

47. No, before he was dead. That would have been the reason for a homicide and not a

suicide. I honestly don't know where you are going with this. Someone clearly wanted to silence him. And it wasn't one of his victims.

Anyone who testified after his death would have obviously been terrified to rat out anyone who might have permanently silenced him. I don't know what happened, I am just saying it is not unlikely that this could have been a homicide.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #47)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:21 PM

48. Okay....


Anyone who testified after his death would have obviously been terrified to rat out anyone who might have permanently silenced him.


It might be good for you to catch up on what the victims actually said, before dismissing them as cowards who are not telling the whole truth.

One of them, Virginia Giuffre, has accused several other men, and she is unique in doing so among Epstein victims. Remarkably, she is still alive. Would you attribute that to her holding back on the ones who would kill her, and only naming men who would not kill her?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #48)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:32 PM

49. Ok, never mind. The victims are not cowards. I would never call them that.

The subject of the OP was the possibility that Epstein's death might have been a homicide instead of a suicide.

I am not familiar with the intricacies of the case, but considering how well connected and perverse Epstein was, I am only agreeing with the idea that the OP might be right, especially in the light of an expert medical examiner's recent findings. It would not shock me to find that there are many powerful people who would have wanted to permanently silence a man who would have nothing to lose by exposing them.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:34 PM

6. I'm kind of surprised he didn't have some documentation

to be released if he died, whether by suicide or not.

And why would he commit suicide? He probably could have worked out a deal like federal relocation or identity change. It’s all so sloppy.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:38 PM

7. Why would prosecutors have worked out a deal with him?


He was accused of molesting a substantial number of underage girls, with the assistance of several of his staff and a few of the victims themselves engaged in recruiting them.

No one else was implicated in the crimes with which he was charged, beyond that circle of people.

23 of his victims testified against him in the victim impact hearing after his death.

There would have been no basis for a deal.

If powerful persons wanted him dead, it would have been much simpler just to bump him off at his Manhattan home or on the street somewhere. I'm not sure what the point was of bringing a media spotlight on his arrest and impending trial, if the same people responsible for that arrest are in the employ of the alleged persons wanting him dead.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:43 PM

9. Anyone implicated in the scandal would want him dead.

Because any one of his friends, including Trump knew what Epstein was doing all along. They just thought they would never get caught. Of course they would want him silenced once he was caught.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:48 PM

13. "Of course they would want him silenced once he was caught"


First off, he'd already been convicted once. So, there was no secret about him being a convicted child molester.

If they would want him silenced "once he was caught", then why catch him? You do understand that it was Trump's DoJ which arrested him this time around, yes?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:10 PM

25. You are deliberately misunderstanding everything that is being said in this thread

At first I thought it was real, but for some reason you’re really on a tear about this.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:32 PM

4. And OJ didn't do it. Neither did Phil Spector


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/why-to-be-skeptical-of-michael-baden-on-epsteins-death.html

Hold Dr. Baden’s credentials up to the light, though, and a more checkered history emerges from his demi-celebrity status. I first sensed the disconnect between Baden’s fame (which he loved to discuss) and his accomplishments (which paled in comparison to his fame-chasing) when he gave a guest lecture at John Jay College’s forensic-science program while I was in graduate school there in the early 2000s. Self-aggrandizement, however irritating, is not necessarily an indication of professional unreliability. The circumstances of his dismissal as chief medical examiner for the New York City office in 1979, and again from running the Suffolk County office in 1982, are bigger — and more worrying — red flags.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:54 PM

19. You have now intentionally misrepresented what both I and Lunatica have posted. SHAME ON YOU

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:03 PM

21. The OP is about the statements of the "famous" Michael Baden


I see nothing inappropriate about providing some additional context concerning just what he is famous for.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 1, 2019, 02:58 PM

53. Yes, my first thought was of Baden's conclusions in other cases.

Controversial, to say the least.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 03:58 PM

20. LOL. Yes, we believe this clown ... because he's "famous!!11!"

1. Works for Fox
2. Did not perform the autopsy
3. Bad thinking skills, thinks "unusual" is the same as "never happens"
4. Probably pimping a book, thus producing sensational click-baiting statements

The fact is that almost all child molesters kill themselves either when the cops are closing in or when in jail. They realize that they'll have no chance once the sordid details are revealed in court.

But everyone seems to want everything in life to conform to a fictional movie they've seen.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:13 PM

26. Hey, he was hired by Epstein's lawyers


And Epstein's lawyers are only interested in getting at the truth.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:32 PM

34. He was hired by Epstein's family according to the article

I thought you were a stickler for facts? I guess not.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #34)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:40 PM

36. .


https://wsbt.com/news/nation-world/medical-examiner-rules-epsteins-death-a-suicide

Epstein's lawyers said they were "not satisfied" with Sampson's conclusions and that they would conduct their own investigation, including seeking to obtain any video of the area around Epstein's cell from the time leading to his death.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #36)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:42 PM

37. So his family didn't have a choice

Jesus! Just stick to the facts why don’t you.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:49 PM

40. The only known "family" he has is his brother

His brother, however, is not the executor of his estate, into which any interests of Jeffrey Epstein are merged.

The only persons with authority to act on behalf of his estate are the executors of the estate, which were employees of Jeffrey Epstein:

https://nypost.com/2019/08/19/jeffrey-epstein-signed-will-two-days-before-suicide/

Its executors are two longtime Epstein employees: lawyer Darren Indyke and businessman Richard Kahn. A third man, Boris Nikolic, is listed as an alternate. The executors will receive $250,000 apiece for their work on the estate, in addition to “reasonable’’ expenses related to the job, the papers say.

If you believe something different, then I'm sure there are any number of people who would like to know why you believe that there is an "Epstein family" which consists of anyone other than a sole individual - i.e. his brother.

So, please dish, to whom do you mean to refer by use of the phrase "Epstein's family"? Since I am obviously ignorant of the facts here, would you care to educate me?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:53 PM

41. Read the article.

I didn’t make up a thing. I posted the article.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:16 PM

27. You're argument is as full of holes as Swiss cheese

If trying to escape punishment for being a pedophile were an argument in Epstein’s case he would have committed suicide years earlier in Florida.

If you can back up your implication that the coroner is lying then please bring it. Being famous or conceited doesn’t automatically make him a liar. Being an asshole doesn’t either.

I don’t have any idea or knowledge that he’s right or wrong, but evidently you do.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #27)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:19 PM

29. The actual coroner isn't lying. Mr. Famous wasn't the coroner here.

And I didn't believe the "diagnoses" from Bill Frist either, did you?

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Response to PSPS (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:27 PM

32. So the story can't be posted in your opinion?

Do you know something no one else knows about this subject? Are you sure the evidence shows no one could have killed him? No one?

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Response to lunatica (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:43 PM

38. Sure, it can be posted. It's the uncritical acceptance of what the clown says that's alarming.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:48 PM

39. Where is anyone being uncritical?

Except maybe you by instantly posting an uncritical rejection of the entire story. Throwing the baby out with the bath water isn’t admirable either.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:47 AM

58. Literally all over this thread.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 11:02 AM

60. Much as uncritical acceptance of the contrary argument as well, yes?

But I get it... when other's do not adhere to our own faith, we often refer to them as clowns.



(insert pretense below your own due diligence in regards to the coroner's report being both absolute and without potential for error, else your faith based allegations are as without merit as everyone else's)

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 11:22 AM

62. In general, we don't expect Fox News talking points to be promoted here


But I can see how someone seeking to be "even handed" relative to "both sides" would think that a paid Fox News mouthpiece had an opinion that was somehow worth taking at face value over a highly qualified scientist appointed by Mayor DeBlasio, who is not being paid by anyone with a dog in this fight:

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden

Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003. In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).

But, sure if Fox News talking points are to be given equal weight at DU, then you have a point.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:33 PM

35. Believing is not the same as knowing.

Everyone should know that.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:36 AM

57. The coroner is obviously in on the conspiracy

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:22 PM

30. What he was involved in goes beyond partisan politics.

Epstein provided his “services” to the elite of the elite around the world. Politicians at the highest level, royalty, corporate giants, mega bankers, Hollywood moguls, celebrities....all of that and more.

They were never going to allow all he knew to come to light. Call me a conspiracy nut all you like but this was obvious.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 04:30 PM

33. To ask something obvious with perfectly valid questions

doesn’t make you or anyone a conspiracist.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 31, 2019, 05:02 PM

44. +1000

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #30)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:57 AM

59. +1

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Fri Nov 1, 2019, 02:35 PM

50. K&R

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Fri Nov 1, 2019, 03:00 PM

54. "Epstein family pathologist" -- okay, we know whose dog he's going to back, regardless. n/t

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:29 AM

55. "offered the remarks on "Fox & Friends.""


Mmmm hmmm... he sure did.

https://www.foxnews.com/person/b/michael-baden


Michael Baden is a Fox News contributor and joined the network in 2003.
In this role, Dr. Baden provides FNC with expert analysis of medical, forensic and investigative aspects of unnatural death and injury, including homicide, suicide, accident and mass disasters (multiple shootings, terrorist attacks, hurricanes, fires, airplane crashes etc.).


Why would you forget to mention "Fox News contributor" along with "famous pathologist" in your subject line?

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 10:33 AM

56. ...

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #56)

Mon Nov 4, 2019, 12:35 PM

63. Got it.

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