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Tue Oct 15, 2019, 01:47 AM

Just read that the Kurds are of the Communist ilk

So that's how they're going to run it. Unreliable source.

23 replies, 908 views

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Reply Just read that the Kurds are of the Communist ilk (Original post)
Cartoonist Oct 2019 OP
SterlingPound Oct 2019 #1
Tipperary Oct 2019 #3
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #8
JonLP24 Oct 2019 #12
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #2
Tipperary Oct 2019 #5
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #9
tonedevil Oct 2019 #19
PatrickforO Oct 2019 #22
JonLP24 Oct 2019 #7
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #11
JonLP24 Oct 2019 #13
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #16
JonLP24 Oct 2019 #17
tirebiter Oct 2019 #4
SterlingPound Oct 2019 #6
tirebiter Oct 2019 #10
SterlingPound Oct 2019 #14
LeftInTX Oct 2019 #15
tirebiter Oct 2019 #18
PatrickforO Oct 2019 #20
LanternWaste Oct 2019 #21
Silver1 Oct 2019 #23

Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:11 AM

1. why do you think we were so quick to screw them over all the other times

there is a reason we never backed them in having their own country since the 1960s.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:13 AM

3. Um.

Just no.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:24 AM

8. Because we created all those other countries and they have given us headaches.

I don't know why the Kurds were left out of the original treaty in 1920. Armenians were also left out of the treaty and we got a parcel of land in the USSR the size of Israel. The Kurds were also supposed to get a country, but they were also left out.

There was no reason to leave the Armenians out. We were Christians and were going to get land the included almost 1/4 of Turkey. (Even though there only several million of us) In the end, the Turks won for some reason.

This all goes back to WWI. There is no way, we would want to create a new country in the ME. The west had already created: Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #8)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:30 AM

12. There also wouldn't be a Saudi Arabia without the west backing them in order to break up the Ottoman

Empire

First it was the British then US because during the cold war the House of Saud hated communists.

USSR backed socialists in Yemen while Saudi Arabia backed the other side during Yemen civil wars.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Socialist_Party

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:13 AM

2. How is who gonna run it?

Most people won't believe they're Communist...LOL

They have a history of being rebels, nomads and living on the fringe of society: bread thieves (growing up I always heard they were gypsies, cuz my family is from the ME), but Communists...no..they aren't organized enough to be Communists...and I just don't see that sticking...

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:16 AM

5. "Bread thieves?"

Am I reading this on du?

Is this a joke?

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Response to Tipperary (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:26 AM

9. My family is from there....It's sort of a joke...

They are marginalized people...They're not communists...They are people who have always struggled.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 03:04 AM

19. Jokes are supposed to be funny. /nt

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Response to tonedevil (Reply #19)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 10:26 AM

22. I'm unclear why you seem to be taking exception. By definition a bread thief

steals bread with the strong implication that he steals because he is hungry, and that he is hungry because he has no means of earning a living and is poor.

I just don't see that in a pejorative sense. Maybe there's something colloquial that I'm missing, but when I read his term 'bread thief' in association with Kurds, and knowing they are made up of small, nomadic tribal groups, my conclusion was that they are poor, and it makes me even more furious that Trump betrayed them after we had allied ourselves with them.

Later in the thread there's an article about 'forgiving' the Kurds because they once embraced Marxism, and about how they did engage in terror attacks against both military and civilian targets, but no longer do so.

Sadly, after our performance as a superpower these many years, and the sad formation of an American empire under Bush II, Cheney and the neocons, I only hope people around the globe will forgive us when our time comes.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:20 AM

7. Kurds are more intelligent than that

Plus they tend to be more liberal in their political beliefs like you see more women's rights for example.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:27 AM

11. The women's rights stuff is new.

Trust me, my family is from there...

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #11)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:32 AM

13. I was trying to say they organized politically

They are effectively running a country without borders.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:40 AM

16. I agree

My family moved away in 1923, but people thought we were Kurds. So I learned about Kurds from family. They would compare Armenians and Kurds. Neither had countries.

I agree though, they have accomplished alot in last 50 years.

I don't think we should create a new country because, we created every other country: Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Israel. It hasn't worked out well.

I do feel we should support them and they should have a semi-autonomous region. If they want to wage a war for independence, then that's their business, but I think they mainly want semi-autonomy and respect.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #16)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:44 AM

17. I agree mostly

I don't think we had any business creating those countries (even after they were involved covertly on who should be head of state where). I think things were better under the Ottoman Empire for the most part especially during the Golden age.

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:15 AM

4. A Marxist past shouldn't disqualify U.S. partnership with Syrian Kurds

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/its-time-acknowledge-pkks-evolution-42482

It's Time to Acknowledge the PKK's Evolution

On January 11, 2019, President Donald Trump began the drawdown of U.S. forces from Syria, making good on a promise tweeted shortly before Christmas. Trump’s tweets caused a firestorm within the Pentagon and foreign policy circles. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis resigned after failing to convince Trump to change his mind. The abandonment of Syrian Kurdish groups fighting alongside U.S. Special Forces was, for Mattis, the last straw. National Security Advisor John Bolton has tried to temper abandonment of the Kurds, although it remains unclear to what degree he will be successful.
Many supporters of Trump’s decision argued the United States owes little to the Kurds. There are two major streams of criticism toward the U.S. alliance with the Syrian Kurds. The first is realist and argues that Turkey is more important to U.S. interests. That may have been true historically, but ignores that the only reason the U.S. allied with the Kurds in the first place was because, under Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, they proved more willing to confront the Islamic State than Turkey. Other critics of the U.S. alliance with the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) say that it is simply cover for the People’s Protection Units (YPG), itself a component of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a U.S.-designated terrorist group which has led an insurgency inside Turkey since 1984. No amount of intellectual somersaults or diplomatic doublespeak can hide that fact, though the State Department tries. What the YPG have accomplished militarily is impressive, as have been the accomplishments of Kurdish civilian organizations inside Syria.

(Keeping the differences, alliances and seperations between the YPG and PKK can be difficult)

At issue is whether the PKK should be judged by its actions of thirty-five-years-ago, or whether it is possible to accept that organizations and governments evolve.

The PKK was founded in 1978 by Abdullah Öcalan, a young ethnic Kurd in Turkey with a group of like-minded Kurdish Marxists in a Diyarbakir tea house. Over the next years, it moved to consolidate control over the Kurdish cause, often targeting and assassinating members of competing leftist and Kurdish groups and political parties. What had begun as a local terror campaign touched a geopolitical nerve. By the logic that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, Öcalan attracted Syrian president Hafez al-Assad’s support. Syria, which played host to a number of other terrorist and revolutionary organizations. The Syria-supported Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) trained the PKK in its Lebanese camps.

Over the decades, Öcalan’s rhetoric has moderated and the PKK goals have changed. No longer does the group talk about Turkey’s partition; rather, its talks about decentralization and “democratic confederalism.” Much of Öcalan’s political philosophy might be gobbledygook, but it is not the Soviet-tinged Marxism feared during the Cold War. And, while an Öcalan personality cult may still remain, it is really little different than the Atatürk cult in Turkey or Barzani cult in Iraqi Kurdistan.

PKK tactics have changed: There remains low-level military insurgency, but gone are the days when the PKK targets Turkish civilians (alas, the reverse is not true with regard to Turkish forces and Kurdish civilians, as the residents of Cizre, Nusaybin, and Sur can attest). Certainly, breakaway factions of the PKK such as the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons (TAK) have claimed attacks, but such factionalism is common when former terrorists come in from the cold. That was the case with the “Real IRA” which emerged after the IRA entered into a peace process in Northern Ireland.

=====================================================================

Over the course of the last decade and a half the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) has transformed its ideological orientation in accord with the changing outlook of its imprisoned leader, Abdullah Öcalan. It has discarded its erstwhile Marxist-Leninist ideology for the anarchist-inspired thought of the American political theorist Murray Bookchin.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14683849.2018.1480370

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Response to tirebiter (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:17 AM

6. Their older hard core commies have died of old age.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:26 AM

10. I am what would be called an anticommunist

It's a not fight I started. I lived in Germany when there was a wall. I was equidistant between Dachau and the wall. The Nazis had been defeated the communists wanted to nuke me.

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Response to tirebiter (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:33 AM

14. there was more than one kurdish group and not all were leaning towards the communists

this isn't as black and white just like everything else, but it was our unstated stated reason for not backing the Kurds more over the years, hell it was even in the American encyclopedias that they had communist leanings in the '70s and 80's editions I was reading.

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Response to tirebiter (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 02:34 AM

15. The PKK was never communist

They're been more like the PLO....is the PLO communist?

I was somewhat involved with ASALA. ASALA was never communist and they wanted a free country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 03:03 AM

18. Nope

That would be the RCPC.

In fact Arafat was good buddies with GWBush when the PLO wa in Lebanon. He bought their ability to not get smashed by being a source of information to GW when he led the CIA

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 09:54 AM

20. I get sick of making the expected 'knee jerk' reaction when a rw source

paints someone or some group as being communist. Usually, when this is said, it means the people tend to care about and care for one another, and work to ensure everyone has enough.

Yeah, the old Soviets and certainly the Maoists got it wrong. They were seduced by lust for power and amassed wealth as part of those trappings while paying lip service to the proletariat.

After 60 years on this earth, I tend to think that we need to encourage entrepreneurs, and at the same time we need a stakeholder, rather than a shareholder approach to capitalism, with a robust regulatory role for the government.

Now, according to Marx, 'communism' is that situation where workers themselves own the means of production, and so derive existential meaning from their labor because they own its fruits. That's a simplification, but the Kurds are a nomadic people. They don't have much in the way of capital and are tribal. Many are also Christian, and so are subject to oppression by Turkey and/or other Muslim majority countries.

I would not call the Kurds communist. All that does is play into the Book of Rove - if it comes out you've ratfucked someone, then smear them so people won't feel sorry for them.

A feeble attempt to cover Donald Trump's treason, wouldn't you say?

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 10:04 AM

21. Just read that the unicorns are from Saturn.

And it's just as relevant, just as sourced and cited, and just as substantive.

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Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2019, 10:35 AM

23. Communist or socialist?

Huge difference ...

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