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Aristus

(65,985 posts)
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:30 AM Oct 2019

The latest battleground in anti-vaxx nuttery: the package insert.

Their newest gambit in trying to discourage patients from getting immunized against deadly diseases.

"The only way for you to know what's in the vaccine is for the doctor to show you the package insert. But they don't show it to you, do they? "DO THEY?!?"

I tell you, for people who think vaccines are an evil plot concocted by the government and the pharmaceutical companies, they place a lot of trust in the package insert printed and placed by the pharmaceutical companies and required by law to be in there by the Federal government.

126 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The latest battleground in anti-vaxx nuttery: the package insert. (Original Post) Aristus Oct 2019 OP
Anti Vaxers are a special kind of stupid. redstatebluegirl Oct 2019 #1
What kind? TheBlackAdder Oct 2019 #47
Indeed ck4829 Oct 2019 #91
There should be a place ("a farm up north"?) where anti-vaxxers AJT Oct 2019 #2
Haha ck4829 Oct 2019 #97
If you ask, they will show it to you. MineralMan Oct 2019 #3
I've never had a patient ask to see the package insert. Aristus Oct 2019 #4
Of course. Anyone will give it to you, if you ask. MineralMan Oct 2019 #5
you're weird Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2019 #109
I'm definitely weird. MineralMan Oct 2019 #113
Package inserts are available online idiots. Claritie Pixie Oct 2019 #6
Yes, and on the websites of the pharmaceutical companies, too. MineralMan Oct 2019 #7
Ingredients in vaccines also on CDC website - ingredients vary in flu shots womanofthehills Oct 2019 #17
Yes ck4829 Oct 2019 #94
South Park had a very funny satire of them this week Buckeyeblue Oct 2019 #8
Ooh, good to know ck4829 Oct 2019 #98
Most so-called "anti-vaxxers" are actually just pro safe vaccines. rainin Oct 2019 #9
Vaccines are safe. Aristus Oct 2019 #10
Are they tested together or separately? rainin Oct 2019 #11
Okay, you know clinical medical providers don't manufacture our own vaccines, right? Aristus Oct 2019 #12
Being personally defensive isn't helpful. rainin Oct 2019 #13
Well, my education actually does prepare me to know more than the rest of you. Aristus Oct 2019 #15
So, I'm following the "game plan" of an anti-vaxxer? rainin Oct 2019 #23
To be fair, you have presented some debunked talking points, verbatim, of the anti-vaxxer movement. ehrnst Oct 2019 #86
+1000. (nt) ehrnst Oct 2019 #75
And I "understand your moving the goalposts, but it isn't helpful here..." either. LanternWaste Oct 2019 #16
Also, the childhood vaccines have been highly tested, but not the flu vaccines womanofthehills Oct 2019 #21
They haven't been tested together. rainin Oct 2019 #24
My grandson was given too many vaccines at once when he was a toddler womanofthehills Oct 2019 #26
And that had NOTHING to do with his vaccines obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #116
"Study finds no immune overload for US kids' vaccine schedule" ehrnst Oct 2019 #84
Can you share the statistics about the number of lawsuits won that you're talking about? ehrnst Oct 2019 #76
Actually, any problems with co-administration of vaccines would show up in post-licensure ehrnst Oct 2019 #80
Defensive... ehrnst Oct 2019 #85
It's kind of like depression Iwasthere Oct 2019 #14
Post removed Post removed Oct 2019 #30
Antidepressants are only effective for patients with severe depression. rainin Oct 2019 #42
He did not state the level of depression so no wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #44
Actually, I understood the point to be that doctors aren't infallible. rainin Oct 2019 #46
What is the source of the research you are citing? ehrnst Oct 2019 #82
That is absolutely not true. Demsrule86 Oct 2019 #77
Source? (nt) ehrnst Oct 2019 #81
Interesting, have data to back that up? ck4829 Oct 2019 #99
Link? Or do I just take your word for it and ignore LuckyCharms Oct 2019 #101
Wrong, and that is the raeson you are not citing any sources obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #118
I'm so glad you have a superpower immune system. GulfCoast66 Oct 2019 #108
so I should still worry about smallpox and polio and consumption? Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2019 #110
"herd immunity is a bogus argument" obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #117
95% is not impossible. muriel_volestrangler Oct 2019 #126
It's possible you don't understand statics or pharmacology Drahthaardogs Oct 2019 #112
lulz obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #115
Hello - some people might be allergic to some ingredients in the flu shot womanofthehills Oct 2019 #18
Yes. Aristus Oct 2019 #19
Are you saying that being anti-vax is ok if you have an allergy? rainin Oct 2019 #20
No. I'm saying a vaccine allergy is a rational, understandable, and medically recognized reason Aristus Oct 2019 #22
"graduate-level shitheadedness" ? rainin Oct 2019 #25
RBG can be very disagreeable. TidalWave46 Oct 2019 #27
I'm done being polite to anti-vaxxers. Aristus Oct 2019 #31
Assumptions. Assumptions. I am fully vaccinated with all state mandated vaccines. rainin Oct 2019 #41
'Studying vaccines' equals concern-trolling. Aristus Oct 2019 #43
You're doing so much attacking. That has to be compensating for something. rainin Oct 2019 #45
Um, no. Aristus Oct 2019 #48
I'm waiting for a single study. rainin Oct 2019 #50
Look. I get it. Someone has to be wrong here, and you don't want it to be you. Aristus Oct 2019 #52
Here are two studies showing the current schedule is safe. Your wait is over. ehrnst Oct 2019 #93
No one is "yelling back that vaccine manufacturers aren't to be questioned." ehrnst Oct 2019 #88
Big Pharma has it's problems and they make our vaccines ...... womanofthehills Oct 2019 #104
What does this have to do with Vaccines? (nt) ehrnst Oct 2019 #122
If you studying vaccines on the internet... GulfCoast66 Oct 2019 #107
*Applause* ck4829 Oct 2019 #100
We'll said. Owl Oct 2019 #66
You have stated you drink BEET JUICE to "stay healthy" obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #119
They are ck4829 Oct 2019 #95
Oh you are going to get it now! You are not permitted to have a contrary opinion wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #28
Personally, I'm happy when anti-vax nutcases show themselves. Turin_C3PO Oct 2019 #29
Having a contrary 'opinion' to established scientific fact is foolishness. Aristus Oct 2019 #32
I am more concerned about the bullying that goes on in threads like this one. wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #33
Having a contrary opinion isn't harmless if it seeks to deter people from receiving Aristus Oct 2019 #34
You have your opinion everyone has one you are not special wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #35
My view isn't opinion. It's established fact. Aristus Oct 2019 #36
Look this thread is not here to be informational. wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #37
Well, no. Aristus Oct 2019 #38
In a few hours there will be another one. Someone wasupaloopa Oct 2019 #39
You were right. rainin Oct 2019 #65
It isn't his opinion, it is scientific and medical fact obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #121
Supporting good science isn't bullying obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #120
And yet, here they are, expressing their contrary opinions. Mariana Oct 2019 #102
There are no opinions here; this is heavily researched science NickB79 Oct 2019 #111
Tell that to the people who have died ismnotwasm Oct 2019 #60
No, most really are nuts. I come across them frequently. Quixote1818 Oct 2019 #83
Yep. Saw a couple talking about secret sterilizing chemicals put in vaccines ck4829 Oct 2019 #96
No they aren't, they are anti-science, anti-public safety whackjobs obamanut2012 Oct 2019 #114
True ck4829 Oct 2019 #125
I have zero tolerance for Anti-Vaxxers and Climate Deniers jpak Oct 2019 #40
Yup, same asshole, different labels. Initech Oct 2019 #51
+1 ck4829 Oct 2019 #124
That's when it's time to just start laughing at them. Initech Oct 2019 #49
+1, yes we do ck4829 Oct 2019 #90
Package insert SoCalNative Oct 2019 #53
So the simple solution is to just make the insert available to anyone who wants it. Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #54
The insert is available to anyone who wants one. Aristus Oct 2019 #55
Then just hand it to them. Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #59
The inserts are already available to anyone who wants them. Mariana Oct 2019 #56
I'm not the one who suggested they weren't available Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #58
But the intent wasn't to obtain the insert Voltaire2 Oct 2019 #69
I actually don't know that - since I wasn't privy to that suggestion - Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #73
Has anyone ridiculed people for wanting to read the inserts? nt. Mariana Oct 2019 #71
That is a large part of what I took from the OP. n/t Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #72
I think you misinterpreted it. Mariana Oct 2019 #103
I've seen too many vaccine-related posts by the OP to be that naive. Ms. Toad Oct 2019 #106
Our cat got vaccinated last week and now she's autistic. progressoid Oct 2019 #57
You didn't show her the package insert, did you? Aristus Oct 2019 #62
NO! And I'll be forever regretful that I didn't! progressoid Oct 2019 #63
Put her on a kale diet right f'ing now. Voltaire2 Oct 2019 #70
Kale? Thanks for the advice. progressoid Oct 2019 #74
OH MY GOD....AN AUTISTIC CAT. LOCK YOUR BEDROOM DOORS AT NIGHT SHE WILL EAT YOU Demsrule86 Oct 2019 #78
Haha ck4829 Oct 2019 #92
I know a family that have ALL had the full range of vaccinations. Archae Oct 2019 #61
But did you do comprehensive research into each and every vaccine out there? Aristus Oct 2019 #64
Whew. blaze Oct 2019 #67
Can't wait. Aristus Oct 2019 #68
Did you refuse further service to the refusal? aikoaiko Oct 2019 #87
My kids had everything...two of the girls could not take pertussis had a bad reaction to the first Demsrule86 Oct 2019 #79
Insanity ck4829 Oct 2019 #89
I know this kind of idiocy exists Skittles Oct 2019 #105
Same ck4829 Oct 2019 #123

AJT

(5,240 posts)
2. There should be a place ("a farm up north"?) where anti-vaxxers
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM
Oct 2019

could frolic pharmaceutical free(cuz who knows what might be in any medicine). Hopefully no one would step on a rusty nail.

MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
3. If you ask, they will show it to you.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM
Oct 2019

Most people don't ask, and don't really want to read it, anyhow. But, if you ask, you can read it.

I always sit in the exit row on planes, if there is a seat available. When I do, I always take out the safety instructions and review them, even though I know them by heart. One time, I was doing that and a flight attendant saw me doing it. She came over and said, "You know, you're the first person I've ever seen look at that card. Thank you!"

I read package inserts for every prescription I receive, too. I have read the insert for a couple of my flu shots, too. I'm a reader of things.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
4. I've never had a patient ask to see the package insert.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:39 AM
Oct 2019

If they do, I will be more than happy to show it to them.

MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
5. Of course. Anyone will give it to you, if you ask.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:41 AM
Oct 2019

They'll be surprised, but they'll hand you the insert. I've never read it before getting the shot, though.

Hermit-The-Prog

(32,892 posts)
109. you're weird
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 01:35 AM
Oct 2019

On the other hand, I have owner's manuals for devices that no longer exist. (And I've read them). There should be something profound to be gleaned from a manual outlasting a tool, but it's just more clutter in my house and garage.

Claritie Pixie

(2,199 posts)
6. Package inserts are available online idiots.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:41 AM
Oct 2019

MMR package insert:

https://www.fda.gov/media/75191/download

Not that they'll be able to understand clinical research and clinical pharmacology anyway



MineralMan

(146,116 posts)
7. Yes, and on the websites of the pharmaceutical companies, too.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:44 AM
Oct 2019

They're not hard to find.

Some pharma companies print the entire consumer insert in their magazine ads, as well. The makers of Nexplanon, the contraceptive implant, include it in their ads in major magazines, taking up a couple of full pages in the magazine. I've always found that interesting.

Here's a link to Merck's patient information for Nexplanon:

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/n/nexplanon/nexplanon_ppi.pdf

rainin

(3,010 posts)
9. Most so-called "anti-vaxxers" are actually just pro safe vaccines.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:51 AM
Oct 2019

That doesn't make a fun punching bag though. Carry on.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
10. Vaccines are safe.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:52 AM
Oct 2019

So why they haven't folded their tents and gone home, I can't quite figure out.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
11. Are they tested together or separately?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 11:19 AM
Oct 2019

Have we determined scientifically that more than 30 doses, not counting annual flu shots, is safer than the 6 I took as a child? Are children more well than they were when we took 6? It's possible the issue is more complex than some would have us believe.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
12. Okay, you know clinical medical providers don't manufacture our own vaccines, right?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 11:34 AM
Oct 2019

It's a process.

We're the tip of a very long spear. The spear consists of thousands and thousands of people who get up every day and try to use their extensive training and experience to make the medical profession better, safer, more efficient, and productive of improved clinical outcomes. That's from the molecular biologists doing the important research into infectious diseases and the immunizations that can prevent them, to the lab technicians producing the vaccines, to the researchers testing them, to the clinical providers administering them.

It's fun to pretend we're all part of some dastardly conspiracy to wipe out humanity, one patient at a time, twirling our Snidely Whiplash moustaches and rubbing our hands gleefully all the while. But it doesn't reflect reality, and the reason and logic that help one negotiate reality safely and confidently.

If it helps, next time you're getting in to your car, take a few moments to ponder whether the assembly worker at the automotive plant twisted that nut as tightly as he should have, or if the forger of that gear reduction box really knew what he was doing. If you find this makes your day needlessly cumbersome, and that it's more rational to expect that your car was made my competent professionals, then spare the same thought for us. Sure, the car thing doesn't have the same Jenny McCarthy-level of social media sexiness of the immunization issue. But the bedrock principle is the same.

Eventually, 'concern' just comes across as brainless douchebaggery.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
13. Being personally defensive isn't helpful.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 11:45 AM
Oct 2019

Vaccines are tested. I simply noted that they haven't been tested together. Nor have they been tested against the earlier vaccine schedules, like those of us who were growing up in the 60's.

I can tell you are proud of your job and believe your education prepared you to know more than the rest of us. Try not to be defensive. Defensive people sometimes forget the topic and start accusing people of brainless douchebaggery. Plus, it would be especially hard to accept any information that contradicts one's work, especially if it means they might be harming children. No one wants to think they missed something.

So I understand your defensiveness, but it isn't helpful here.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
15. Well, my education actually does prepare me to know more than the rest of you.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 12:11 PM
Oct 2019

That's kind of what education is about.

This isn't defensiveness. The whole game-plan of the anti-vaxx movement is to put the knowledgeable professionals on the defensive. So good on you for trying. You're following the game-plan.

If there's one thing likely to anger me (rather than put me on the defensive) it's to accuse me of harming children through neglect and carelessness. I know that's also part of the game-plan. Vaccines do not harm children, and it is unethical to insinuate that they do. Since we're on the subject of trained professionals, it might help to know that the progenitor of the anti-vaxx movement falsified his research into vaccines, has been discredited by the medical profession, and was stripped of his license. In a movie or a TV show, this might be shown as evidence that "The conspiracy runs deeper than you know..." But in real life, it just means that the anti-vaxx movement is built on fraudulent principles.

Fortunately, we trained and educated professionals listen to other trained and educated professionals, rather than listening to internet trouble-makers.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
23. So, I'm following the "game plan" of an anti-vaxxer?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:08 PM
Oct 2019

Medical professionals who engage in attacks rather than discussion sound more like pharmaceutical shills.

Maybe someday, society will re-evaluate its blind faith in the current vaccine schedule. Until then, I'll continue to ask people if they think we should call on scientists to verify the safety of so many vaccines on young children. I'd like to see independent studies that demonstrate the safety of so many. I'd prefer we not experiment on our children. Maybe someday, common sense will prevail.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
86. To be fair, you have presented some debunked talking points, verbatim, of the anti-vaxxer movement.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:09 PM
Oct 2019

"The vaccines aren't tested together"

The reaction to demonstrated expertise that it somehow = saying that "Doctors are infallible."

Calling those who disagree with you "pharmaceutical shills."

"Experimenting on our children."

You have made statements and cited statistics without providing any sources for them. That seems to indicate that you are reluctant to reveal the sources that you trust.

It's easy to include links to your sources, and that will prove those with doubts wrong.





womanofthehills

(8,547 posts)
21. Also, the childhood vaccines have been highly tested, but not the flu vaccines
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 12:53 PM
Oct 2019

because they only have a short time each year to figure out what strains to use. If you go online and type in vaccine injury lawyers, it's almost scary - some lawyers list the cases they have won. What's scary is that there are hundreds of vaccine injury lawyers out there - so business can't be that bad.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
24. They haven't been tested together.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:10 PM
Oct 2019

We have no scientific studies saying the current schedule is safer than what I had, around 6 vaccines.

womanofthehills

(8,547 posts)
26. My grandson was given too many vaccines at once when he was a toddler
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:20 PM
Oct 2019

He was sick for three months and totally stopped talking. We were freaked - but he's fine now.

Some of my friends will only give their child one vaccine at a time - a smart move I think.

obamanut2012

(25,869 posts)
116. And that had NOTHING to do with his vaccines
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:04 PM
Oct 2019

You have proved on other threads you are anti vaccine, and drink beet juice to "stay healthy," so be honest about your agenda on this thread.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
84. "Study finds no immune overload for US kids' vaccine schedule"
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:02 PM
Oct 2019
Receiving multiple vaccines during childhood doesn't damage the immune system and make kids more vulnerable to diseases that aren't covered by the immunizations, researchers reported yesterday in the first US study to test the association.

Experts say the findings offer reassurance, which comes against a backdrop of parent concerns about their children's vaccines that in recent years have been fanned by the antivaccine movement. Researchers from Kaiser Permanente and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported their findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).

In 2002, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examined questions about whether getting multiple vaccinations could impair developing immune systems, which led them to reject, among other considerations, that exposure to multiple vaccines caused nontargeted diseases. The agency noted, however, that a relationship between multiple vaccinations and the risk of nontargeted infections was biologically plausible.

Since then, researchers have looked at questions related to multiple vaccinations and autoimmunity and allergy, but little work has been done to examine the association between multiple vaccine and nontargeted infections, and none involved the current US childhood vaccine schedule.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2018/03/study-finds-no-immune-overload-us-kids-vaccine-schedule

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2673970


Jan 17, 2013 (CIDRAP News) – An Institute of Medicine (IOM) review of the safety of the US childhood vaccine schedule turned up no signs that it is unsafe and found that existing vaccine safety databases are best poised—with a few tweaks—to further explore additional questions, according to a report yesterday.

IOM scientists conducted the study based on a request from the Department of Health and Human Service (HHS) over concerns about the quantity and timing of vaccines. The immunization schedule recommended by federal health officials is designed to protect kids from 14 different pathogens at a time when they're most vulnerable to the diseases.

The IOM noted in its 175-page report that more than 90% of kids enter kindergarten with most of the recommended immunizations, but some parents have aired worries that the vaccine schedule is too "crowded" and have asked doctors for more flexible immunization timing to space out or delay some of the doses. According to current recommendations, children may receive up to 24 immunizations by their second birthday and up to five injections during a single office visit.

The IOM said the study is its first to specifically explore the entire child vaccination schedule. The group examined the scientific literature and sought feedback from several stakeholder groups, including researchers, advocacy groups, parents, the public, and federal agencies.

They found no links between adverse events and the immunization schedule and said that the federal government's existing safety systems provide further confidence that the current schedule is safe.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/01/iom-study-finds-child-vaccine-schedule-safe

So, apparently it is safe. And I certainly made sure my son got the vaccines not available to me. I don't want him to get shingles, or for a partner to contract HPV from him.

Do you have any sources that say that the current schedule is less safe than the schedule that didn't include those? I'm not sure that there's a continuum for "safe" past the point of "safe."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK206938/

Perhaps you can clarify? I mean, wearing two seat belts doesn't make one more safe than wearing one.

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-history/developments-by-year
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
76. Can you share the statistics about the number of lawsuits won that you're talking about?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 08:43 PM
Oct 2019

I'm interested in what your sources are.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
80. Actually, any problems with co-administration of vaccines would show up in post-licensure
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 08:52 PM
Oct 2019

safety testing.

In the Post-Licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring Program, we examined risk of febrile seizures (FS) after trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV) and 13-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV13) during the 2010-2011 influenza season, adjusted for concomitant diphtheria tetanus acellular pertussis-containing vaccines (DTaP). Assuming children would receive both vaccines, we examined whether same-day TIV and PCV13 vaccination was associated with greater FS risk when compared with separate-day vaccination


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26371192

“Vaccines can generally be co-administered (i.e. more than one vaccine given at different sites during the same visit). Recommendations that explicitly endorse co-administration are indicated in the table, however, lack of an explicit co-administration recommendation does not imply that the vaccine cannot be co-administered; further, there are no recommendations against co-administration.”

Summary of WHO Position Papers – Recommendations for Routine Immunization

So that's one talking point that you don't need to believe anymore.
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
85. Defensive...
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:06 PM
Oct 2019
I can tell you are proud of your job and believe your education prepared you to know more than the rest of us.


That is defensive. And it's not helpful either.


“You can disagree without being disagreeable.”
― Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Iwasthere

(3,135 posts)
14. It's kind of like depression
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 11:53 AM
Oct 2019

Doctors have prescribed a myriad of pills for depression, and expensive ones. Come to find out they are no better than placebos, and even cause harm. So many suicides Flu vaccine success rates are dismal. My immune system if far greater than the avg vaxer, I refuse to run the risk of compromising my body, there is no good reason, and I am no threat. Also herd immunity is a bogus argument. You have to reach 95% participation for herd success. Because of people with compromised systems that is an impossibility. So where does that leave us. So much fear.

Response to Iwasthere (Reply #14)

rainin

(3,010 posts)
42. Antidepressants are only effective for patients with severe depression.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:41 PM
Oct 2019

They are no more effective than a placebo in mild to moderate depression. The commenter is correct.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
46. Actually, I understood the point to be that doctors aren't infallible.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:51 PM
Oct 2019

They prescribed antidepressants (and still do) despite research that clearly shows it's ineffective in any group other than those with severe depression.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
82. What is the source of the research you are citing?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 08:56 PM
Oct 2019

And who has stated that doctors are infallible?

LuckyCharms

(17,236 posts)
101. Link? Or do I just take your word for it and ignore
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:35 PM
Oct 2019

my own personal experience which says otherwise?

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
108. I'm so glad you have a superpower immune system.
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:16 AM
Oct 2019

Till you don’t.

And cut the bullshit about anti-depression medicine. My significant other suffered from depression on and off till her doctor found a medication that worked for her. And it changed her life and our lives for the better. That was 24 years ago!

You don’t know the fuck what you are talking about. Stereotypical internet doctor. You have all the answers. And if one internet site does not confirm your bias you can always find another that does. And you call that science!

Don’t talk to me about anti-depression drugs bring bogus. They may have saved my significant others life.

Jesus, this bullshit pisses me off.

Hermit-The-Prog

(32,892 posts)
110. so I should still worry about smallpox and polio and consumption?
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 01:46 AM
Oct 2019

Your 95% participation argument falls apart quite easily.

obamanut2012

(25,869 posts)
117. "herd immunity is a bogus argument"
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:06 PM
Oct 2019

Yet another thread you and the DU anti-vaxxers are staining with unscientific falsehoods and half-truths.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,083 posts)
126. 95% is not impossible.
Sun Oct 13, 2019, 07:27 AM
Oct 2019

It was achieved for several vaccinations in many countries for many years.

And to call herd immunity "a bogus argument" is to completely misunderstand reality. It's those with the compromised systems who need herd immunity to be achieved, because they can't be personally protected. Yours is the argument of "survival of the fittest - leave the weak behind". We need compassion, not resignation to illness and death.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
112. It's possible you don't understand statics or pharmacology
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 05:29 AM
Oct 2019

Particularly well. What you are saying makes no sense

womanofthehills

(8,547 posts)
18. Hello - some people might be allergic to some ingredients in the flu shot
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 12:43 PM
Oct 2019

Nothing is black and white. Most people do fine with the flu shot - but the government has paid out over $4,000,000,000 for vaccine injury so improvements can be made to the shots.

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/data/data-statistics-october-2019.pdf

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
19. Yes.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 12:46 PM
Oct 2019

For everyone who is not allergic, vaccination is of paramount importance.

Anyway, an allergic reaction is due to the patient's physiological response to the vaccine, not any inherent property of the vaccine itself.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
22. No. I'm saying a vaccine allergy is a rational, understandable, and medically recognized reason
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 12:54 PM
Oct 2019

for not getting vaccinated.

Anything other objection is graduate-level shitheadedness.

It is in order to protect the allergic from otherwise vaccine-preventable diseases that the rest of us should get immunized.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
25. "graduate-level shitheadedness" ?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:14 PM
Oct 2019

“You can disagree without being disagreeable.”
― Ruth Bader Ginsburg

 

TidalWave46

(2,061 posts)
27. RBG can be very disagreeable.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:33 PM
Oct 2019

Although the intelligent manner in which she does so might fly over the heads of some.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
31. I'm done being polite to anti-vaxxers.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:51 PM
Oct 2019

You're peddling dangerous misinformation.

You want me to be polite to you? Stop being an anti-vaxxer.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
41. Assumptions. Assumptions. I am fully vaccinated with all state mandated vaccines.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:33 PM
Oct 2019

My children are fully vaccinated with all state mandated vaccines (includes quite a few more than I had).

To be clear, you're accusing me of "peddling misinformation" for wanting the safety of all the vaccines in the vaccine schedule to be studied as a whole.

And yes, of course I think polite conversation is better than name calling. There are lots of people here who prefer to be interact with polite people. I enjoy polite conversation with polite people.

Yet, mentioning studying vaccines makes people angry. I find that more than a little interesting.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
43. 'Studying vaccines' equals concern-trolling.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:42 PM
Oct 2019

You think vaccines aren't studied to a fair-thee-well? For this precise reason?

You think vaccine manufacturers just collect some storm-drain runoff or something and say: "Eh, good enough." and pronounce it a vaccine?

There are people who devote their entire professional lives to studying the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

If all you want to do is shed a little sunshine on the good work they do, then thank you. They deserve it.

But to suggest that it isn't done is a rather feeble brand of trolling...

rainin

(3,010 posts)
45. You're doing so much attacking. That has to be compensating for something.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:49 PM
Oct 2019

I've looked, but if you know of research studying the effects of all the vaccines on the current schedule, it's time to put up. I've looked and concluded it doesn't exist.

Yelling back that vaccine manufacturers aren't to be questioned isn't an argument.

I think you know that, so you must be doing this for some other reason.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
48. Um, no.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:53 PM
Oct 2019

The only thing I'm compensating for is the fact that I still get patients who refuse the vaccine for any reason other than allergy. That is a reasonable form of compensation.

This isn't attacking. It's defending. Defending modern allopathic medicine against people who think we should return to the days of horse-dung poultices, bleeding, and blistering. Medical professionals are a defensive bulwark against scientific ignorance.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
50. I'm waiting for a single study.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:57 PM
Oct 2019

If I were as committed as you to a point of view, I'd have dozens of studies at the ready.

One study please that shows that the current vaccine schedule taken together, as mandated is safe.

One study please that shows that the current vaccine schedule is as safe as the schedule in 1960 when I was a child.

waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting...

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
52. Look. I get it. Someone has to be wrong here, and you don't want it to be you.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 04:06 PM
Oct 2019

Therefor, I'm 'compensating.'

And it's a pretty common debating tactic to insist that the other guy do the research. But here's the thing. I don't need any convincing. And you're the one who says there's no research out there.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
93. Here are two studies showing the current schedule is safe. Your wait is over.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:25 PM
Oct 2019

Study finds no immune overload for US kids' vaccine schedule

Receiving multiple vaccines during childhood doesn't damage the immune system and make kids more vulnerable to diseases that aren't covered by the immunizations, researchers reported yesterday in the first US study to test the association.

Experts say the findings offer reassurance, which comes against a backdrop of parent concerns about their children's vaccines that in recent years have been fanned by the antivaccine movement. Researchers from Kaiser Permanente and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported their findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).

In 2002, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examined questions about whether getting multiple vaccinations could impair developing immune systems, which led them to reject, among other considerations, that exposure to multiple vaccines caused nontargeted diseases. The agency noted, however, that a relationship between multiple vaccinations and the risk of nontargeted infections was biologically plausible.

Since then, researchers have looked at questions related to multiple vaccinations and autoimmunity and allergy, but little work has been done to examine the association between multiple vaccine and nontargeted infections, and none involved the current US childhood vaccine schedule.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2018/03/study-finds-no-immune-overload-us-kids-vaccine-schedule

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2673970


Jan 17, 2013 (CIDRAP News) – An Institute of Medicine (IOM) review of the safety of the US childhood vaccine schedule turned up no signs that it is unsafe and found that existing vaccine safety databases are best poised—with a few tweaks—to further explore additional questions, according to a report yesterday.

IOM scientists conducted the study based on a request from the Department of Health and Human Service (HHS) over concerns about the quantity and timing of vaccines. The immunization schedule recommended by federal health officials is designed to protect kids from 14 different pathogens at a time when they're most vulnerable to the diseases.

The IOM noted in its 175-page report that more than 90% of kids enter kindergarten with most of the recommended immunizations, but some parents have aired worries that the vaccine schedule is too "crowded" and have asked doctors for more flexible immunization timing to space out or delay some of the doses. According to current recommendations, children may receive up to 24 immunizations by their second birthday and up to five injections during a single office visit.

The IOM said the study is its first to specifically explore the entire child vaccination schedule. The group examined the scientific literature and sought feedback from several stakeholder groups, including researchers, advocacy groups, parents, the public, and federal agencies.

They found no links between adverse events and the immunization schedule and said that the federal government's existing safety systems provide further confidence that the current schedule is safe.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/01/iom-study-finds-child-vaccine-schedule-safe

Now, clearly, not getting chicken pox or HPV or measles is safer - both for the person who is getting the vaccine and the people around them who cannot get those vaccines for medical reasons - undergoing chemo, infants too young to get the full schedule, those with HIV.

So to say that there needs to be a study that states that getting those vaccines is safer than not getting them, requires a more specific definition of "safe." Perhaps you'd like to clarify that for us?

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-history/developments-by-year
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
88. No one is "yelling back that vaccine manufacturers aren't to be questioned."
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:19 PM
Oct 2019

And yes, there is a study...

Study finds no immune overload for US kids' vaccine schedule

Receiving multiple vaccines during childhood doesn't damage the immune system and make kids more vulnerable to diseases that aren't covered by the immunizations, researchers reported yesterday in the first US study to test the association.

Experts say the findings offer reassurance, which comes against a backdrop of parent concerns about their children's vaccines that in recent years have been fanned by the antivaccine movement. Researchers from Kaiser Permanente and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported their findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).

In 2002, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examined questions about whether getting multiple vaccinations could impair developing immune systems, which led them to reject, among other considerations, that exposure to multiple vaccines caused nontargeted diseases. The agency noted, however, that a relationship between multiple vaccinations and the risk of nontargeted infections was biologically plausible.

Since then, researchers have looked at questions related to multiple vaccinations and autoimmunity and allergy, but little work has been done to examine the association between multiple vaccine and nontargeted infections, and none involved the current US childhood vaccine schedule.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2018/03/study-finds-no-immune-overload-us-kids-vaccine-schedule

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2673970

Perhaps looking further than the sources that you rely on might be helpful.



womanofthehills

(8,547 posts)
104. Big Pharma has it's problems and they make our vaccines ......
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 10:41 PM
Oct 2019

Now with Trump in power, eliminating all the people who check for safety of our food, drugs, air, water - Who is actually checking vaccine safety? Do you know?

GalaxoSmithKline - who makes Flublok just recalled Zantac.

(Reuters) - GlaxoSmithKline (GSK.L) on Tuesday said it is recalling the popular heartburn medicine Zantac in all markets as a “precaution”, days after the U.S. Food and Drug Administration found “unacceptable” levels of probable cancer-causing impurity in the drug.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gsk-heartburn-zantac/gsk-recalls-popular-heartburn-drug-zantac-globally-after-cancer-scare-idUSKBN1WN1SL


Merck who makes vaccines recalled Vioxx

Merck & Co.’s arthritis drug Vioxx may have led to more than 27,000 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths before it was pulled from the market last week, the Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday, citing an unreleased study by government regulators.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6192603/ns/health-arthritis/t/report-vioxx-linked-thousands-deaths/#.XaE5FiV7mWY


etc.............. the other vaccine companies have had problems too. I am for safer vaccines, not anti vax.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
107. If you studying vaccines on the internet...
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:03 AM
Oct 2019

You are not studying vaccines.

So, what’s your day job? Study vaccines for a living? Because lots of honorable people do.

obamanut2012

(25,869 posts)
119. You have stated you drink BEET JUICE to "stay healthy"
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:10 PM
Oct 2019

And stated as fact the scientific impossibility that vaccines caused a relative to not speak for three months. You are against public safety for some reason, and it is astounding you and others do.

Skinner, etal really should have banned all anti vaxx nonsense years

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
28. Oh you are going to get it now! You are not permitted to have a contrary opinion
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:37 PM
Oct 2019

here.

DU rules, thou shalt adhere to the majority opinion.

Turin_C3PO

(13,574 posts)
29. Personally, I'm happy when anti-vax nutcases show themselves.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:42 PM
Oct 2019

It lets me know who the anti-science idiots on this site are.

On edit: I’m not talking about most in this thread, I’m talking about the true nutters.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
32. Having a contrary 'opinion' to established scientific fact is foolishness.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 01:52 PM
Oct 2019

One can have a contrary opinion to gravity if one chooses. I challenge that person to jump off a 100-story building, thumb their noses at science all the way down, and see what happens when they get to the bottom.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
33. I am more concerned about the bullying that goes on in threads like this one.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:08 PM
Oct 2019

The OP is preaching to the choir. It is meant to attack anyone with contrary opinion.
It is not informational.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
34. Having a contrary opinion isn't harmless if it seeks to deter people from receiving
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:10 PM
Oct 2019

life-saving preventive care.

Shutting such people down isn't bullying, it's heroism.

Playing the victim card on this doesn't work with me.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
36. My view isn't opinion. It's established fact.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:25 PM
Oct 2019

Disease and the prevention of disease are not matters of opinion. This isn't summer camp; it's not important that everyone gets to play. This is a matter for trained scientists. Somebody with a keyboard and an internet connection doesn't get to weigh in just because he or she has an opinion. Validity isn't measured by the loudness of one's voice, but by the veracity of the science.

The 'science' behind the anti-vaxx movement was discredited years ago.

I can respect devotion to a cause. But if someone is that devoted to a cause, they would be better utilized as a volunteer or an advocate for things that matter: an organization to protect abused and neglected children, a shelter for victims of domestic violence, charities for the homeless, HIV advocacy, etc, etc. I don't want people with such persistence and devotion to a cause to just spin their wheels helplessly.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
37. Look this thread is not here to be informational.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:35 PM
Oct 2019

It certainly is not a discussion or a debate.

It was posted so a bunch of people can pat themselves on the back in hope someone will disagree with the herd. Then the fun starts. All gang up on that one to bully them.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
38. Well, no.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:44 PM
Oct 2019

The whole point of this is that there shouldn't be disagreement on this issue. Anymore than there should be disagreement over whether the sun comes up in the morning.

The whole purpose of the anti-vaxx movement isn't to right some institutional wrong; it's to muddy the waters, to rile people up, and to get the spotlight focused on people who have seemingly nothing else to offer.

The day the anti-vaxxers hang it up and go to lunch, I'll stop these threads.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
39. In a few hours there will be another one. Someone
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 02:55 PM
Oct 2019

will post something about flu shots .

The two types of replies appear. One is people saying they got a flu shot. The other rails about anti-vac people.

All replies agree with one or the other or both. It’s like a herd instinct. The official DU opinion is repeated over and over like reciting a creed.

Everyone hopes that a contrary post shows up. Then the bullying starts. It is fun. You get to tell people how knowledgable you rare on the subject.

Without the contrary post there is no real information passed on. Just the herd agreeing with the herd.

Just wait this afternoon it will be repeated.

This happens with other subjects also. White privilege is a good one. The topic is different but the mechanics are the same.

I have been watching this for years.

The justification for two of these yesterday was that these posts remind people to get a flu shot,

obamanut2012

(25,869 posts)
121. It isn't his opinion, it is scientific and medical fact
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 12:18 PM
Oct 2019

You are your cohorts are wrong, and on the wrong side of science and public safety, and you really all should be rather ashamed of yourselves for peddling this.

NickB79

(19,063 posts)
111. There are no opinions here; this is heavily researched science
Sat Oct 12, 2019, 01:47 AM
Oct 2019

Antivaxxers are on the same fucking level as climate chscienceniers, Moon landing deniers and flat earthers.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
60. Tell that to the people who have died
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:14 PM
Oct 2019

And the people who will die. This year. Possible this moment. Dead. No coming back, and often suffering greatly prior to death. Because assholes can’t be bothered to protect others out of dumbassery.


We have a screening tool prior to offering vaccines, that takes into account things like allergies and Guillain–Barré.

I understand exceptions, I understand the topic is not not black and white.

But goddamn it’s hard to watch a patient develop something like ARDS because they got the flu, and know it was preventable.

Initech

(99,881 posts)
49. That's when it's time to just start laughing at them.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 03:56 PM
Oct 2019

Last edited Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

We need this guy everywhere:

SoCalNative

(4,613 posts)
53. Package insert
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 04:46 PM
Oct 2019

Oh, you mean that thing that I take out of all of my scrips and immediately toss in the trash?

Ms. Toad

(33,896 posts)
54. So the simple solution is to just make the insert available to anyone who wants it.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 04:57 PM
Oct 2019

Fighting requests for informaiton, and ridiculing people who make them, just makes it seem as if you're trying to hide something.

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
55. The insert is available to anyone who wants one.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:02 PM
Oct 2019

They're all over the internet.

I ridicule anti-vaxxers because their views are ridiculous.

Ms. Toad

(33,896 posts)
59. Then just hand it to them.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:12 PM
Oct 2019

No need to set up a straw man and knock it down.

ETA - so I think I've tracked down the concern being raised - and it, too, can be addressed simply and without ridicule.

Your assertion that the claim is about missing inserts is (from anything I can find) inaccurate. The only concern I have been able to find regards missing sections from the insert.

Inserts are mandated to include certain information, if applicable. There are 1-3 sections missing from Merck inserts this year. The sections apparently aren't applicable. Giving the concerns a quick glance, the issue seems to be whether absence = lack of information as to those sections or absence = no reason for concern. Explaining which it is to your patients would require very little effort to explain to them in a civil manner - and an explanation would be far more likely to convince them to have the vaccine than ridicule would.

Mariana

(14,830 posts)
56. The inserts are already available to anyone who wants them.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:02 PM
Oct 2019

The anti-vaxxers who claim they aren't available are lying.

Ms. Toad

(33,896 posts)
58. I'm not the one who suggested they weren't available
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:11 PM
Oct 2019

I was suggesting that the appropriate response if someone is making that claim is to respond by providing it, not ridiculing them for wanting it.

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
69. But the intent wasn't to obtain the insert
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:43 PM
Oct 2019

The intent was to spread fear uncertainty and doubt by claiming that the insert is being deliberately withheld.

And I think you know that.

Ms. Toad

(33,896 posts)
73. I actually don't know that - since I wasn't privy to that suggestion -
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 06:08 PM
Oct 2019

But - I did a quick search and did not come up with any such allegations, so it seems to be a strawman morphed from a questions that was raised about gaps in the insert disclosures, which is a different issue. It's much easier to ridicule an allegation that inserts are being intentionally withheld than it is to have a rational dicussion about why certain mandatory disclosures are absent from the inserts (1-3 from Merck's for this year).

Had I been the attorney who reviewed the inserts, I would have suggested that all mandatory disclosures be listed - with a brief explanation for silence on the provisions that are inapplicable - explaining why they were omitted.

Mariana

(14,830 posts)
103. I think you misinterpreted it.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:59 PM
Oct 2019

I read it that the OP is ridiculing the people who claim the inserts aren't being made available to read.

Ms. Toad

(33,896 posts)
106. I've seen too many vaccine-related posts by the OP to be that naive.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 11:36 PM
Oct 2019

Especially since nothing I can find suggest that is really the claim.

And, if that really is the case - as I suggested in my first response: The more mature response - that is more likely to encourage poeple to be vaccinated - is to hand people who are making that claim (if any really are) an insert.

progressoid

(49,758 posts)
63. NO! And I'll be forever regretful that I didn't!
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:22 PM
Oct 2019

If I had, I would have to opportunity to google every ingredient before I let them stick that needle in her. And with my extensive high school chemistry background, I would have seen the warning signs.



progressoid

(49,758 posts)
74. Kale? Thanks for the advice.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 06:27 PM
Oct 2019

We were only giving her essential oils. The addition of kale should help immensely!

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
78. OH MY GOD....AN AUTISTIC CAT. LOCK YOUR BEDROOM DOORS AT NIGHT SHE WILL EAT YOU
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 08:49 PM
Oct 2019

UNDOUBTEDLY...HOW COULD YOU? HEHEHE.

Archae

(46,246 posts)
61. I know a family that have ALL had the full range of vaccinations.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:16 PM
Oct 2019

Parents
5 children
7 grandchildren
7 great-grandchildren
2 great-great grandchildren

All had vaccinations.
Not ONE has autism. Not one!

How do I know all this?

It's my family.

I am one of the 5 children.

Anti-vaxxers are total assholes.
They follow a quack who faked a study to make money. (Andrew Wakefield)

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
64. But did you do comprehensive research into each and every vaccine out there?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:25 PM
Oct 2019

Of course not, because apparently (and don't quote me on this) there is no research.

Or if there is, it has been suppressed by the Deep State...

blaze

(6,248 posts)
67. Whew.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:35 PM
Oct 2019

I know you have this battle daily at work.

Sorry it follows you home on DU.

Almost cocktail time!

Aristus

(65,985 posts)
68. Can't wait.
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 05:40 PM
Oct 2019

Rough week...

But largely a success. I've only had one vaccine refusal this week (out of twenty or so) that I wasn't able to overcome.

aikoaiko

(34,113 posts)
87. Did you refuse further service to the refusal?
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 09:11 PM
Oct 2019

I'll be honest I find that practice dubious in its logic.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
79. My kids had everything...two of the girls could not take pertussis had a bad reaction to the first
Fri Oct 11, 2019, 08:51 PM
Oct 2019

shot and no they are not autistic...but now there is an acellular version they will try.

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