All of the "they fought along side of us" stuff really pisses me off.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

Last edited Wed Oct 9, 2019, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Even most supporters of the Kurds are presenting the bloody, horrific 5 year war to take away the Islamic State's Caliphate in such an unbalanced way that it's essentially dishonest.

The Kurds fought the Islamic State half a mile to several miles OUT IN FRONT OF US, or 3,000 to 20,000 feet BELOW US. NOT "side-by-side" or "shoulder to shoulder" with us. That's how the Kurdish Pesh Merga lost 11,000 killed in action - men and women soldiers alike - while we lost 10.

Some of those 11,000 killed were captives of the Islamic State's sadistic butchers and rapists before they died, too.

Our special forces were back on some hilltop or knoll with laptops, overhead photography, maps, and laser ranging tools, sending the Kurds up front coordinates and images of where THEY should "engage" the ISIS fighters next. And of course our warplanes above bombed the holy hell out of ISIS fighters... then flew safely back to their bases or carriers.

We purposefully used the Kurds to keep Americans safely out of rifle and RPG range. And they accepted that, did the actual ground fighting, and died and were wounded (24,000) in large numbers as a result.

That's quite some ally we had there.

And then Trump after one of his famously nuts phone calls turns the Turks loose on them.


(Edit to add the source of the casualty figures: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/07/trump-abandons-syrian-kurds-top-commander-pleads-us-support/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans)

[tblue37]

1. Big K&R. nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. That makes it all even worse.

[Mike 03]

3. A guest on CNN with knowledge of this said the Kurds did 95% of the fighting. nt

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

4. Creating new foes from allies...

Yea, the “best” negotiator...

[cloudythescribbler]

5. aside from Congress, need UN (starting w/General Assembly) to act

Congress is likely soon to pass measures countering the DT Administration's naked betrayal of the Kurds -- which is frankly to be expected of someone like Trump

Who knows if Trump (who has demonstrated himself to be 'open to deal' in foreign relations, not only with Ukraine but with Australia, China and others) hasn't cut some kind of personal deal with Erdogan, a like-minded authoritarian?

In addition to Congress, surely there must be SOME countries sympathetic enough to the plight of the Kurds (who have no representation in the General Assembly) to raise this issue now in the GA. A concrete goal could be to have UN peacekeepers maintaining a buffer zone, mainly within northern Syria, to prevent the looming attack on the Kurds.

Of course, Congress and the UN move slowly, more slowly that circumstances require. This is the kind of reason why the mainstream media and the leadership of the Democratic Party should have been much more forceful about the stealing of the '16 election -- not RussiaRussiaRussia but the systematic mass suppression of votes as reported both before and after the election by Greg Palast, and systematically ignored otherwise.

I have been raising this latter issue over & over & over. This (along w/climate catastrophe) is the price we and the world are paying for THAT betrayal

[dumbcat]

22. What do you think the UN General Assembly

would be able to do to change anything? What power would they have to stop Turkey from doing anything?

[groundloop]

41. The damage is already done.

It's clear that Turkey knew in advance exactly when tRump was pulling out. They had time to prepare their offensive, and began it at the instant tRump gave them permission. There are no do-overs in war.

[pecosbob]

6. I view the conflict with ISIS as an extension of the regime change in Iraq

The Kurds fought in both the Bush's wars, but the truth is that they were always fighting for autonomy. It is what it is. They had the misfortune to be left out of the map-drawing in the Sykes-Picot agreement crafted after world war one and straddle the border regions of several countries that were cut in at the map's creation. Everything else is anchored in that fact.

We never intended to support their goal of independence. Even autonomy was delusional given the region's political trajectory. The Turks and the Syrians both have been waiting patiently for us to leave so that they can move in.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

12. No one's saying they do all this altruistically, with no interests of their own.

And in their situation, who wouldn't struggle for independence? WE sure would.

They're a distinctive people - not Sunni Arab, not Shiite Arab, not Persian, and not Turkish - numbering 35 to 40 million people, and are frequently heavily oppressed by their host nations. (Not that unlike how Jews were before... 5 million? secured Israel.) And Kurds are among the most modern and moderate culture in the region. They even treat women like actual fellow human beings.

After our idiotic invasion of Iraq, Joe Biden in I think it was 2003 or 2004 argued we should probably help the Kurds establish an independent nation out of their Kurdish territory in northern Iraq.

I favored that idea then, and still favor it today. A moderate, democratic, Muslim ally with relatively modern and non-misogynistic sensibilities in that region. Imagine that!

Iran Iraq Syria and Turkey would all hate it and kick up a fuss. Too bad is my reaction. If anybody came after them, though, if we kept the skies above them clear, a free Kurdistan would likely be able to defend itself. After the Israelis they are the most motivated, proven, and effective fighters in the neighborhood.

[pecosbob]

13. Agreed

[bigbrother05]

15. We didn't carve it out in Iraq because Turkey and Syria objected

Iraq agreed to grant some autonomy, but outright independence would have meant them attempting to unite with the other border areas as greater Kurdistan.

None of the governments were willing to allow that.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

16. The common assumption is parts of Iran Turkey and Syria would also try to break away.

Another possibility, though, is the freedom-aspiring Kurds in those countries might choose instead to migrate to the new, free homeland. Thereby strengthening it, and not getting themselves massacred in those other countries.

That's a bit of an idealistic hope, I realize. But the U.S. could do quite a bit to discourage Kurds outside of the present northern Iraq from rebelling. By, for example, stressing we will not support those breakaway movements (well, maybe NE Syrian Kurds'?... we'd have to see), and pressuring the Kurdistan national govt to do the same.

There is a risk of turmoil, I agree. One has to weigh the relative risks, such as of wider conflict, against what is being gained, geo-politically, and in human rights. It can be a difficult calculation to make, but there are things that are worth fighting for.

[stopdiggin]

18. and we would need allies?

Since every state in the surrounding area is NOT in favor of an Kurdish independent state (no matter where located) -- it would be necessary to cement international support in order to counter their objections. The U.S. can't be the sole guarantee or support for such a move. And that would of course hearken back to the days when the U.S. thought allies and diplomacy were beneficial.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

20. I don't have a handy source to link for this, but my understanding is

Last edited Wed Oct 9, 2019, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)

that at over 35 million people the Kurds comprise the largest distinctive culture remaining on Earth to not have a home nation.

Finland and Norway, 5 to 6 million pop. each? Iceland, about 1/2 million?

Kurds, 35 to 40 million?

Granted the world is not a fair place. But why are so many so bent on withholding statehood from Kurdish-speaking (not Arabic or Farsi-speaking) peoples?

Especially such religiously moderate, wonderfully Islamist-extremists' ass-kicking ones? It's not like they haven't been asking, or haven't been willing to earn it.

[LeftInTX]

24. The ME is so F'd up...a new country will just create more problems.

I think we should support autonomy for Kurds and humanitarian aid.

They deserve a life free of persecution. However to create a "new liberal state" is a pie in the sky. Where will they get the money? The Kurds might seem liberal to us now, but Israel is the most liberal place in the ME and look at the headaches.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

25. They have oil.

I don't want to paint a prospective Kurdistan as some sort of dream nation. But in a region chock full of, I agree, some pretty fucked-up countries, all the signs suggest this would be a LESS fucked-up one.

In 2003 we inflamed the area for nothing positive. This would be a disruption, yes, but one much more likely to produce a religiously moderate, democratic, non-misogynistic Muslim nation.

[llmart]

32. Just hold on for awhile...

Jared's working on a plan for peace.

[bronxiteforever]

7. Kick and recommend for truth.

[Midnightwalk]

8. 100%

It doesn’t matter that they had their own reasons to fight. They were fighting for us as well against a crisis we largely caused.

This is the second time we betrayed the Kurds.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. K&R

[superpatriotman]

10. The Kurds are badasses

Who deserve much more respect than the world has given them

[smirkymonkey]

11. K&R

[orangecrush]

14. Amen.

[lagomorph777]

17. Out in front, protecting the world from ISIS.

And Trump says "Thanks, now fuck off!"

[KPN]

19. Turn the impeached tRump over to the

Kurds ... reconciliation!

[gordianot]

23. That would make America great.

When the IRS seizes Trump properties give it to the Kurds, the real Russian owners can go hell.

[FakeNoose]

43. When did we stop honoring our fallen comrades?

When Chump became pResident!

[demigoddess]

21. another big K&R.

the Kurds didn't deserve to be treated like this. We have just ruined our reputation as an ally in the world.

[Pepsidog]

26. Richard Engel posted a link earlier in the week about the the Kurdish fighting force. Worth a watch.

[Anon-C]

27. +1000

[mopinko]

28. just like we did in afghanistan.

gave em cell phones to call down jdams, some handfuls of cash, and let the "northern alliance" do the dirty work.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

29. trump is a traitor to everyone

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

30. Btw I'm not Kurdish myself, and if I even know any Kurdish-Americans

I'm not aware of it.

I am a U.S. military vet, though.

Over a number of years I've just been struck by Kurds' poor situation in their part of the world -- not unlike the Armenians' before a new nation of Armenia was created. How their precarious situation so contrasts with their initiative, determination, and seemingly special capabilities, stability, and military effectiveness, esp. relative to the rest of Iraq.

And how willing and useful their regional government and its Pesh Merga forces have been to the U.S., as we've floundered about trying to undo some of the mess we made there.

Whenever you've seen pictures of uniformed Muslim women soldiers out on patrol in that part of the world? Those are Pesh Merga. I'm sort of used to it, but it still makes me do a double-take. And especially for women soldiers to be on the ground fighting the Islamic State Caliphate? I admire... I'm amazed and inspired by... their bravery.

[Karadeniz]

31. What he's done is sickening.

[roamer65]

33. +100000000000000000000000000000.

[Kurt V.]

34. You're conflating talking heads and u.s. special ops forces. they know the Kurdish fighters

on a personal level. they did a job and the kurds did a job.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

37. Our special forces talked with constantly and knew the Kurdish soldiers personally, yes, absolutely.

Last edited Wed Oct 9, 2019, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)

U.S. special forces on the ground in the Syrian combat zones were the Kurds' "eyes and ears," most heavily with intell from the sky. Satellite photos and videos, manned and drone aircraft still pics and live videos, radio intercepts. We gave them enemy force estimates, coordinates, range-to-target data, and often were even minute by minute advisors.

If the Kurds needed help calling in the big battle-changers, air strikes, our special forces would help with those (but as I understand it many Kurd front line commanders could call in U.S. air strikes entirely on their own).

And we met with the Kurds again for after-action debriefs, assessments, lessons-learned, and new intell.

To do all that, U.S. special forces couldn't be but so far away from the shooting.

But our guys did not "stand shoulder to shoulder" with the Kurds on the ground directly facing off against the Islamic State fighters, because they weren't there to do that. That job was the Kurds'... which they did well, though obviously at a cost.

On the very rare instances any Islamic State fighter got within rifle or RPG range of any American soldier, it was an accident, something had gone wrong, and it certainly didn't last long. If a few stories of isolated incidents of our guys trading direct groundfire with ISIS come out of a 5 year war, no one should be surprised. Mistakes happen. But the design was, the Kurds engage, we direct and advise. And things went according to design.

All of which explains why we suffered next to no casualities, the Kurds suffered large numbers of casualties, and the Islamic State sustained by far the worst casualties of all... just devastating numbers of dead. From air strikes in particular, they had no way to defend themselves and at one pace or another were going to keep losing fighters and ground. But even after ideal air strikes infantry still did have to go in on foot, clean out pockets of resistance and snipers, and secure that ground.

So both U.S. and Kurdish ground forces did their assigned jobs, yes. But those jobs and their attendant levels of exposure to enemy fire were almost unimaginably different... they were worlds apart.

You really couldn't get near our guys in Syria without getting blown up, seriously. A bunch of Russian mercenaries very stupidly tried... I think it was in February? We signalled them not to, and yeah, we knew they were Russians. But the idiots were motivated by capturing valuable property - they got to keep what they took - and thought we'd just back away as they approached. Our warplanes wiped out 200 to 300 Russians in just minutes. (First time that's happened... IDK, ever, maybe?)

[Cetacea]

35. K&R

Thank you

[hay rick]

36. K&R

[dchill]

38. K&R.

[warmfeet]

39. K and R.

[Ohioboy]

40. K&R for a post that puts things in perspective

Well said.

[napi21]

42. I wonder how many of our other alais will say NO the next time we ask for their help?

They can't trust the USA anymore! At least not until JA is gone!

[Scurrilous]

44. K&R

[appalachiablue]

45. Great post, TY.

[MFGsunny]

46. K & R ... + 1,000,000. Facts and details matter - a lot! I too am Much obliged for your OP. n/t

[Moral Compass]

47. The Kurds did the fighting for us is more accurate.

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

48. Reportedly ISIS fighters were particularly upset by female Pesh Merga.

Last edited Thu Oct 10, 2019, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Something about a WOMAN, of all things, being willing to take up arms against them really threw them off.

Anyone with time feel free to look up and add in here anything on a woman Kurdish fighter with the nomme de guerre of Rehana. I don't have all the details on her. Early in the Caliphate War she became a bit of a charismatic figure among the Kurds.

Then disappeared in battle.

After which an ISIS propaganda video appeared. A bearded fighter held up a Kurdish girl's decapitated head. Reportedly Rehana's. I don't know it it was ever confirmed it was her.

The Islamic State tried to intimidate these worrisome uppity women out of fighting them by vowing that any that they captured they would first "make their wives."

According to some Yazidi girls and women who were taken as war prizes, used as sex slaves, and escaped, what being made their wife meant for some was continual gang rape. A fighter comes in, says I Marry You, rapes the girl, says I Divorce You, goes out. Next ISIS fighter comes in, same thing. All night long. Those were the religious rules their Imams gave them for sex slavery. It made what the fighters were doing moral, in their spin on Islam.

The Kurds Erdogan is attacking today are the incredibly brave people who were our main and best Muslim allies, both in the 2003- 2000whenever chaos we ignited in Iraq. And then in the spin-off past 5 years' war to defeat the IS Caliphate.

Trump getting his "information" about the Kurds from Erdogan is like someone having gotten their "information" about the Armenians from Ataturk. Ataturk killed lots of Armenians in western Turkey.

Edit:

Dunno how to post pics yet, but this is/was Kurdish fighter Rehanna early in the Caliphate War, in the Syrian town of Kobani.
&exph=951&expw=634&q=kurdish+freedom+fighter+rehana&simid=608010219732602109&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=1&eim=1,2,3,4,6&sim=11

I looked at an image of the IS fighter holding up the girl fighter's head above her dead body, in victory -- and ugh I suggest you don't -- and to me it looked like her. But I see counterclaims it wasn't her and she was still fighting. So, I don't know. But some girl in fatigues and with a long hair braid got decapitated.

[malthaussen]

49. Yes, we fought ISIS to the last Kurd

That might be thought to represent some shrewdness on the part of our diplomats. Empires do tend to use proxies whenever they can, while moaning about all the (material) support we sent them. cf "The Russians would never have won if we didn't send them Lend Lease."

In a society such as ours, our money will always be more important than someone else's life.

-- Mal