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Thu Oct 3, 2019, 12:46 PM

My question is "Will it backfire on us again?"

In the run-up to the 2016 elections, one of the things that was remarked upon was all of the free publicity that trump was getting from the networks because of his celebrity status and the canít-look-away-from-the-train-wreck-debacle that he has embraced in every public appearance. Well, here we go again. Only this time I notice that CNN at least is being much more aggressive in the fact checking department, going so far as to split screen graphics with debunking bulletpoints, and going directly to evidence (such as the IG today saying the whistleblower complaint does align with the transcripts, despite what trump said this morning) when they have it that can prove the blatant bullshit that is constantly mouth-sharting out of trumps hole.

Hereís my problem with this.

First and foremost, we know that the 20-25% who identify as trump supporters donít care, donít want to know, and will vote for him no matter what. This is a given, and you canít change it.

So I wonder about the remainder. I imagine thereís a 20-25% group who would not vote for trump no matter what. Not even if aliens invaded and we needed to rally behind somebody. Iím in that group. But the truth is that this is where we have been since 1776. There is a core with one worldview, and a core with an opposite worldview. Back then, key individuals managed to bury their differences long enough to provide us with the framework of the constitution, which although itís shown some cracks over the years, is a pretty amazing accomplishment.

There are facts about human nature that we cannot escape. Goebbels knew a great deal about it, and how if you repeat a lie often enough it will outlast the truth, and the trump campaign has spent the last 3 years laying the groundwork of ďfake newsĒ so they have a ready made exit strategy. Not that itís true, not that thereís any ďfactsĒ there, and never mind that CNN now is fighting back, thereís a portion of the population for whom the damage has been done, and is continuing, with respect to having sown the seeds of doubt in them about the news media. And these are not trumps base, these are above and beyond that.

If 40-50% of us are already decided, thatís means that the results of this upcoming election lie with the remaining 50-60%. Iím spitballing here, and this portion of my post is purely conjecture, which I freely admit, but of that remaining 50-60% it would make sense to me, that 20-25% is also divided to one side or the other, but not for the same reasons, not as dedicated, and open to voting one way or the other, although their inherent lean is predetermined by culture, geography, etc. (Although one would think the last 3 years were compelling enough, this is about the propaganda that the trumps use, and the thoughtless advocacy that free publicity ends up being in that situation) That means that really, this election will be decided by some 10% of the remaining voters.

So I like what CNN is doing with fact checking, I like their introduction of ads with the apple/banana touting their dedication, but I wonder if itís not going to end up with the same result as last time? Not that they are going to avoid covering him, that too would be irresponsible, but I donít see any clear solution here.

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Arrow 9 replies Author Time Post
Reply My question is "Will it backfire on us again?" (Original post)
Arthur_Frain Oct 3 OP
Nevermypresident Oct 3 #1
Garrett78 Oct 3 #5
Arthur_Frain Oct 3 #6
Arthur_Frain Oct 3 #7
Unbelievable Oct 3 #2
Arthur_Frain Oct 3 #8
fescuerescue Oct 3 #3
Arthur_Frain Oct 3 #9
njhoneybadger Oct 3 #4

Response to Arthur_Frain (Original post)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 12:54 PM

1. You're right, gaslighting by repeating a lie over and over again will persuade some

voters, especially low information voters. To add to this, I recently read that once these people are persuaded, any effort made to correctly debunk those lies will only further entrench them to their (false) opinion of the facts.

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Response to Nevermypresident (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 02:05 PM

5. Dems need to repeat the truth over and over and over again.

Republicans have long understood better than Democrats, it seems, the power of narrative.

In addition to repeating a simple phrase repeatedly (Transparent illegality is still illegality.), it would be good for Dems to actually talk at press conferences about the strategy/tactic that Trump and Republicans are employing. Don't assume that people will recognize it for what it is. You can't overestimate the ignorance of the American people.

Something short and easily understood like this:

Transparent illegality is still illegality. The president and Republicans want you to think what they're doing and have been doing is okay because they are admitting it openly, which is because they got caught. This is a tactic. What they are doing is not okay. It's a crime. It's an impeachable offense to collude with a foreign government for political gain. The president is committing crimes. Don't be fooled by their tactic. Again, transparent illegality is still illegality. Crimes that are out in the open are still crimes.

Repeated by every Dem who makes a public appearance, day after day after day. Hold a press conference every fucking day to address Republican lies. Do not assume that letting them spew nonsense will hurt them. Or else they will establish the dominant narrative. Guaranteed.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:38 PM

6. I like that point.

Hadnít thought about that by admitting to it they were trying to make it appear that it was legal. Iíd only observed that this time around theyíve gone from suggesting that ďthis may not appear to be as it seemsĒ to ďblack is whiteĒ.

Iím dumbfounded actually, that there seems to be no low to which they wonít go. But in for a penny, I guess....

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Response to Nevermypresident (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:46 PM

7. Yes, but.

Hate to call people stupid. I know some folks who are otherwise seemingly bright and successful, and they still support you know who.

Iíd go back to my ďhuman natureĒ statement. Most of us know folks who we canít believe voted for/support still trump. Why? Lots of complex reasons Iím sure, but one thing keeps gnawing at me. Some of these people surely are low information, or uneducated, or flat out stupid. But right wing radio has been grooming anyone who will listen for over two decades now, and itís still going strong. I can guarantee you that all of the folks in my sphere of influence who fit this bill? They are/were big fans of rush et al. My mother, for instance. Not a stupid lady, but sheís been listening to this puke for all this time, and itís changed who she is.

I too read that article you refer to about how itís near impossible to get them to change, but I think itís wrong. People can change, the key is to find a way to make them want to. Hopefully using positive reinforcement, and not internment camps. I hate to think my ma is a lost cause.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Original post)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 12:58 PM

2. Great post.


To answer your headline with a simple answer.


I hate to say it and I hate to see the pain but this is going to get bad before its over. We will be left asking WTF. But eventually, America will be what it was supposed to be again.

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Response to Unbelievable (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:51 PM

8. I hope you're right.

Iím not sure at this stage, I can say ďI know what America was supposed to beĒ. There was a time I could have answered this question, but right now I donít think we are going to get there.

I mean, I thought Obama getting elected meant we had turned the corner on racism a little. Turned out not to be so, turned out in fact that there were a shit ton more evil people biding their time in the shadows than I ever imagined. So I have to wonder about my present hopes or conclusions.

It is going to be an interesting ride.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Original post)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 01:26 PM

3. Maybe

But we gotta do it anyway.

Contrary to popular belief, All the political noise is *NOT* about changing people minds of Republican vs Democrat.

Nobody every changes this mind. Maybe once in a lifetime.

It's about getting your side out to vote. It's all about turnout.

Will impeachment make Republicans go to the polls? Maybe.

Will impeachment make Democrats go to the polls? Definitely

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:57 PM

9. It's definitely about getting out the vote yes.

Remember in 2016 when trump said theyíd honor the results of the election......if they won?

I do. Donít hear that quote anymore, but I thought it was incredible it didnít get any traction with them media when he said it then. Itís going to be worse this time around. I donít think the impeachment helps do anything but stir shit up, no matter how great it is to see shithead losing it on public television. Pelosi knew that I think, and was just counting on being able to get out the vote based on his ridiculous performance over the first term. Juryís out on who impeachment helps most, but itís a moot point now.

Time will tell.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Original post)

Thu Oct 3, 2019, 01:30 PM

4. It's always decided by the middle 10% or less and voter suppression

There is no "backfire" this time. He is in the news everyday anyway. We lose the election if we allow him to extort manufactured lies from foreign countries about our candidates

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