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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe Are In An Enforcement Crisis -- Do Something
This government is all about loyalties to the rule of men over oaths to the rule of law. The Second Branch is working around and outside norms and law.
Law will not enforce itself. Secrecy at the highest levels through classification, data sweeps, stalling, legal parsings, actionless rumors and simple inaction, keep everyone in the dark. A lot of promises can be kept in the dark. Secrecy invalidates rule of law.
The current "acting" cabinet is led by one man daily enforcing his rule through presidential "privilege." This "privilege" privileges the autocracy of secrets over the democracy of information.
Congress's only power is through the courts; yet, what powers do courts have.
Who do Congress and the courts send out to enforce their rulings on subpoenas, or just their rulings. Who forcibly collects the fines, enters secured buildings to make the arrests, and where are the scofflaws detained.
The People's House and SCOTUS are stymied by law enforcement controlled by only one branch. The president's. The chief "security" officer of the land. The FBI won't act independently. The DNI won't act independently.
That's the current state of impotence in two branches of this government. Two and a half.
There is no power of the Law without real world physical enforcement of it.
My position: it's the enforcement, stupid. Do something.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Enforcement requires the integrity to put country above personal financial interest and Party. And no one in the GOP has that.
Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)
Post removed
kentuck
(110,950 posts)No one in the Democratic Party has the capacity to battle on even terms with the criminals now in the White House.
sal2019
(23 posts)This will only come out on the side of democracy if (even a handful of) GOP senators break ranks.
They control the White House, the Senate, the judiciary and the chief law enforcement officer is Trump's lapdog.
That's squarely where the blame lies and where the heat must be turned up.
The dems are in power in the house and need to explain clearly and with moral authority to the American public why Trumps actions are unconstitutional and undemocratic. Thats how the public will become educated and galvanized to pressure the repugs to act. Additionally the dems most hold the obstructors of justice accountable and arrest their asses.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Go on news shows like Sunday morning talk shows, cable news programs? Twitter? Hold a press conference? Issue a statement? Speak on the House floor?
choie
(4,102 posts)and it's not just "saying it" they have to make impassioned statements that inform Americans of the danger that this administration poses to our democracy. As much as I despise when the rethugs abuse the idea of patriotism, the Dems have to explain that true patriots must guard our democracy and protect the constitution from being trampled.
I have posted her speech twice already, and I will continue to quote her: "My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total. And I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution."
That's what the dems need to say. Every fucking day.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Any other suggestions?
choie
(4,102 posts)obviously some here have very low standards.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)releases, holding press conferences, speaking on the House floor, etc. just isn't paying attention and shouldn't be the least bit surprised if no one takes them seriously.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)My heart died a little when Adam Schiff said, calmly like he often does, we'll just wait until next Thursday and see how that hearing goes. DUDE PLEASE! Wait a week to hear that he can't answer questions, then filed lawsuits, issue subpoenas, look like idiots. We have not one ounce of balls left.
triron
(21,916 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)ancianita
(35,816 posts)our democratic rule of law. Rule of law cowers.
Our party faces a fight it's never had to have.
Money trumps power.
triron
(21,916 posts)saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)"The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious..."
ancianita
(35,816 posts)We out here patiently wait. But only one half of one branch of government is our current recourse.
Some of us quit this political world, walk away, refuse to trust those who take oaths to protect and DEFEND constitutional rule of law.
Unenforced law is no law at all.
Some of us are realizing that we're on our own. No one is coming.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)during the bushit administration. The Saudis are not our friends. imo
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Now this prez calls Saudis our allies -- enough to shrug at the torturous, bloody murder of an American journalist; invite their business in his many businesses; not the least, give them nuclear technology and who knows what else.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)who have no loyalty to country or fear of punishment.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)
will send anyone for the traitors even if, by this slow grind, treason IS proven.
Adversaries will argue false flag arguments to their voters.
Adversaries will argue a coup, because they know that a huge number of Americans who haven't kept up with legal processes that proved treason will doubt the ruling.
Who will decide to prove treason. Who will call it treason. Who will be sent to arrest the traitor(s). I've read that no entity but the sold out DOJ could do that.
What could go wrong.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)I refuse to allow thugs and traitors the opportunity to declare victory without a fight.
Take to the streets, march on Washington, flood the Congress with calls, texts and letters, threaten the cowards with primary challenges if they fail to stand with US. imo
ancianita
(35,816 posts)I love your zeal. They can't jail us all. But they can jail, surveil and crowd control, as we learned during the Occupy time. The DAPL protestors showed that being right, hanging tight doesn't matter when we're up against law enforcement and national guard troops.
Protest has been shown as only temporary, and ultimately a fail.
I'm not being literal when I agree that it's a good hill to die on, though.
I prefer a general nationwide tax strike, which would shut down the machinery of oligarchy in govt.
triron
(21,916 posts)this. We may be going the way of the 3rd Reich or the Romans.
JCMach1
(27,544 posts)that simple...
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,110 posts)Stop playing fucking softball with these people.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)All these remedies are false remedies in the current context that does nor recognize impeachment as anything to honor.
I'm not negative. I'm realistic.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)So many calls to do something yet trump has placed his people in every position of power.
Only people in power with guts and integrity can do something. They dont exist
I am at a loss to know why we dont have people pledging loyalty to the country, the constitution, the rule of law and to the people.
I dont know what power trump holds over people. They know trump is evil yet they serve him.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)So now what. Now that we've tried everything.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)candidates and them winning.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)So much easier to sit at a computer or tap on their phones railing about what Nancy Pelosi isn't doing.
Mr.Bill
(24,104 posts)probably won't happen. Today's fantasy - Nancy Pelosi announces she is using discretionary funding at her disposal to purchase a secure building in DC and turning it into a detention facility.
Imagine the heads that would explode.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)We're at a dead end with upholding Democracy.
1984 is no longer fiction.
whathehell
(28,969 posts)ancianita
(35,816 posts)I'm talking Lewandowski style contempt, refusal to answer questions, etc.
Speaker Pelosi was right. Nadler should threaten fines and other penalties for any further obstruction misbehavior by hostile witnesses.
Scalded Nun
(1,231 posts)Maybe I am wrong, but if I am right then these assholes can be arrested as they leave the building. If there are no consequences for this shit then no one can expect anything to change.
If the DOJ calls the shots, then tell Barr to start arresting them. If he refuses, go after him. At least all of this treachery will have a formal trail.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)This is the only House means of enforcement left since they've tried all the other doors that open to brick walls.
Then we watch bail, trials, lawyer games; calls for dismissal on technicalities over due process or police mistakes; delayed trials, delayed sentencing, fines, pardons, money buying its way out of our enforcement efforts, and then pardons for all.
Maybe while we wait, the whistleblower's Big Reveal will come. Then we wait through rounds of more testimonies, delayed actions, an eventual impeachment vote.
I hope DC Police will be called on, since Barr's useless.
Yet you hit the practical solution on the head -- one way out of this. You've revived my hope.
A thousand thanks. My day is getting better now.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)independent municipal government. DC police report to the DC Police Chief and through her, the Mayor, not DOJ or Congress.
Jughead
(42 posts)JUST LEAD LIKE A SPEAKER SHOULD DAMMIT!
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Response to ancianita (Original post)
Baked Potato This message was self-deleted by its author.
blakstoneranger
(333 posts)ancianita is right! Unless some form of serious enforcement is imposed on these guys they will continue to flaunt their arrogance against the rule of law---for trump. I heard they could have charged manuchin up to $30,000 per day for not turning over tax returns. Barr could also be charge or even sent to jail. The same applies to all of them. But they don't think that Jerry Nadler and the rest has the balls to do anything other than threats. They all seem to be overwhelmed with paperwork. They need to contract out to some really good constitutional experts, academics, lawyers and help them stay a few steps ahead. Because barr is at the center of all of this. He is trump's personal watch dog. Nadler and schif don't seem to know what their doing and it's becoming obvious to everybody. It clearly obvious to the republicans because they've gotten cocky, arrogant, and downright bold to such a degree even kellyanne conway is throwing her finger up to say "f...you!" I hope these guys have some secret plan, because this all looks like a waste of time and taxpayer money! SAVE AMERICA, DUMP TRUMP 2020!!
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 19, 2019, 11:22 PM - Edit history (1)
structurally, they are stuck in an enforcement crisis they didn't make.
They're overwhelmed, true, because they're only half of one of the three branches that are trying to oversee the people's government, and you likely understand how that's happened. But.
It's not because Nadler and Schiff don't know what they're doing, you say -- far from it. They keep getting the finger but they're moving at the pace that perfect adherence to the law forces on them.
But explain exactly how is this the fault of the Democratic Committee. Please proceed.
Welcome to DU.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)ancianita
(35,816 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)There is really not much the House of Representatives alone can do! Does not matter what you read on the internet.
Arrest and Jail them? Give me a break? Who? The Sargent at Arms? His power does not run off the congressional grounds as he is not a federal marshal, whom actually report to the president. And jail them where? DC jails? They do not answer to the House of Representatives.
And say the Sergeant of Arms nabs them in the rotunda of the capital and in locks them away in, I dont know...the cloak room? With in hours a court would give an injunction. And fines? Whose going to collect it? Nadler and Pelosi going to show up as at their house? Again, no court is going to enforce a House of Representatives fine. They arnt getting in the way of a separation of powers fight.
All this has been posted by people smarter than I and is readily available to read, if you dont mind reading facts that piss you off. As they do me. I just see it for what it is.
Keep in mind. AG holder was held in contempt for not showing at a hearing. You think if the republicans could have jailed or fined him they would have held off?
Stop blaming democrats for republicans actions and the limits of the power of the House of Representatives!
Since 16 the only hope was the election of 18. We did good. Now 20 its in the balance and it ours to win. Attacking democrats for something they have no power over is counter productive.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I tried earlier and had given up.
When I mentioned people smarter than me posting on the subject...it was you I had in mind.
Im as pissed off as anyone. But I have accomplished very little in my life governed by anger. It may motivate, but not direct.
Too many people are reluctant to admit the election of 2020 is the only thing that can change the paradigm. Nothing else.
You have a very nice evening.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I always appreciate your well-thought-out posts.
You're right. The notion that the Democrats aren't doing anything unless they're running around setting their hair of fire is ridiculous. We need calm, rational, thoughtful leadership right now, not a bunch of hysterical reactionaries channeling the panic of the most freaked-out among us.
Thank God we have grownups in charge.
You have a lovely evening, too.
dlk
(11,438 posts)It makes enforcement challenging, at best.