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ancianita

(35,816 posts)
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:10 PM Sep 2019

We Are In An Enforcement Crisis -- Do Something

This government is all about loyalties to the rule of men over oaths to the rule of law. The Second Branch is working around and outside norms and law.

Law will not enforce itself. Secrecy at the highest levels through classification, data sweeps, stalling, legal parsings, actionless rumors and simple inaction, keep everyone in the dark. A lot of promises can be kept in the dark. Secrecy invalidates rule of law.

The current "acting" cabinet is led by one man daily enforcing his rule through presidential "privilege." This "privilege" privileges the autocracy of secrets over the democracy of information.

Congress's only power is through the courts; yet, what powers do courts have.

Who do Congress and the courts send out to enforce their rulings on subpoenas, or just their rulings. Who forcibly collects the fines, enters secured buildings to make the arrests, and where are the scofflaws detained.

The People's House and SCOTUS are stymied by law enforcement controlled by only one branch. The president's. The chief "security" officer of the land. The FBI won't act independently. The DNI won't act independently.

That's the current state of impotence in two branches of this government. Two and a half.

There is no power of the Law without real world physical enforcement of it.

My position: it's the enforcement, stupid. Do something.

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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We Are In An Enforcement Crisis -- Do Something (Original Post) ancianita Sep 2019 OP
Recommended. guillaumeb Sep 2019 #1
Post removed Post removed Sep 2019 #2
Unfortunately, you may be right. kentuck Sep 2019 #5
The fecklessness of the Democrats is overstated ... sal2019 Sep 2019 #26
No choie Sep 2019 #30
What outlet do you suggest the Dems use to educate the American public? StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #37
All of the above.. choie Sep 2019 #40
They're already doing all of those things. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #41
No, they have not... choie Sep 2019 #49
Anyone who hasn't seen Democrats on cable news, Sunday morning talk shows, on Twitter, issuing press StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #50
I take you seriously and I agree that the (mixed) messaging has not been effective to date. Nevermypresident Sep 2019 #52
Totally agree. Mike 03 Sep 2019 #3
I see a huge problem here. We are in a crisis and no one is acting like it. triron Sep 2019 #6
THIS x 1000 Mike 03 Sep 2019 #9
There's dread and fear in facing what is up in our collective face. Oligarchic rule stares down ancianita Sep 2019 #21
Yes we are unprepared for the onslaught. I don't know the remedy (can't say anyting else). triron Sep 2019 #22
Where is our Thomas Paine? saidsimplesimon Sep 2019 #4
We're full of Thomas Paines. It's the political will to GO AFTER those who enforce one man rule. ancianita Sep 2019 #7
YOYO, I recall the foreign attacks saidsimplesimon Sep 2019 #10
The Big Reveal at that time is that bushit's BFF Saudis flew out after Saudis hit twin towers. ancianita Sep 2019 #12
Treason means nothing to those saidsimplesimon Sep 2019 #15
It looks as if we're stuck with proving treason, then. It's not proven. No court or Congress ancianita Sep 2019 #17
"The darkest day before the dawn"? saidsimplesimon Sep 2019 #19
If only that could do it. It's a hope for dawn, sure. But reality might be a long winter night. ancianita Sep 2019 #20
Might work if enough participated. But I don't see much desire of the populace to engage triron Sep 2019 #24
Abuse of Power requires impeachment JCMach1 Sep 2019 #8
Impeachment is a vote on some articles. The only enforcement of impeachment is removal. ancianita Sep 2019 #11
Barr needs to be impeached tomorrow. Ace Rothstein Sep 2019 #13
Does that require a Senate vote? Impeachment isn't hardball if it doesn't remove him. ancianita Sep 2019 #14
Do what by whom? You think if we could do something we would not have done it? wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #16
You get it. Our wheel spinning to cul de sacs of subpoenas and courts has sent us to this dead end. ancianita Sep 2019 #18
Vote them out of office. We should be spending more time finding good wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #48
That takes too much work StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #51
I keep my sanity by fanticising about things that I know Mr.Bill Sep 2019 #23
I like it. But who'd make the arrests and deliver the guilty. My fantasy: FBI does it. ancianita Sep 2019 #25
Seargent at Arms? whathehell Sep 2019 #28
S/he just keeps order and safety for House members & doesn't enforce anything, far as I know. ancianita Sep 2019 #34
Don't the DC Police report to Congress and not DOJ? Scalded Nun Sep 2019 #27
Yes! You nailed it!! I'd forgotten. Someone will have to holler at the House to use the DC police. ancianita Sep 2019 #33
They don't report to either. DC police report to the City of the District of Columbia, which is an StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #43
PELOSI FOR CRIPES SAKES STEP UP Jughead Sep 2019 #29
What should she do as the speaker and leader? What enforcement power does she have? ancianita Sep 2019 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author Baked Potato Sep 2019 #31
The Democratic Committee is a Joke blakstoneranger Sep 2019 #32
I don't call them a joke, you do.They're in an historically unprecedented situation. I'm saying that ancianita Sep 2019 #35
Thank you StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #44
And yet multiple Greatest Threads saying "Don't criticize their failure to enforce." nt MadDAsHell Sep 2019 #38
Hm. Could you copy/paste them here? I missed those, and I'm not sure what your point is. ancianita Sep 2019 #39
OM F'n G. Stop with the unrealistic hysteria! GulfCoast66 Sep 2019 #42
THANK YOU for this awesome post StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #45
It was your elegant post last night that made me do it! GulfCoast66 Sep 2019 #46
You're very kind StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #47
The Watchdogs Have Been Put to Sleep Over the Past Several Decades dlk Sep 2019 #53

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Recommended.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:13 PM
Sep 2019

Enforcement requires the integrity to put country above personal financial interest and Party. And no one in the GOP has that.

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
5. Unfortunately, you may be right.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:20 PM
Sep 2019

No one in the Democratic Party has the capacity to battle on even terms with the criminals now in the White House.

 

sal2019

(23 posts)
26. The fecklessness of the Democrats is overstated ...
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:36 PM
Sep 2019

This will only come out on the side of democracy if (even a handful of) GOP senators break ranks.

They control the White House, the Senate, the judiciary and the chief law enforcement officer is Trump's lapdog.

That's squarely where the blame lies and where the heat must be turned up.

choie

(4,102 posts)
30. No
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:49 PM
Sep 2019

The dems are in power in the house and need to explain clearly and with moral authority to the American public why Trumps actions are unconstitutional and undemocratic. That’s how the public will become educated and galvanized to pressure the repugs to act. Additionally the dems most hold the obstructors of justice accountable and arrest their asses.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
37. What outlet do you suggest the Dems use to educate the American public?
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 05:29 PM
Sep 2019

Go on news shows like Sunday morning talk shows, cable news programs? Twitter? Hold a press conference? Issue a statement? Speak on the House floor?

choie

(4,102 posts)
40. All of the above..
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 06:54 PM
Sep 2019

and it's not just "saying it" they have to make impassioned statements that inform Americans of the danger that this administration poses to our democracy. As much as I despise when the rethugs abuse the idea of patriotism, the Dems have to explain that true patriots must guard our democracy and protect the constitution from being trampled.

I have posted her speech twice already, and I will continue to quote her: "My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total. And I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution."

That's what the dems need to say. Every fucking day.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
50. Anyone who hasn't seen Democrats on cable news, Sunday morning talk shows, on Twitter, issuing press
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 09:55 PM
Sep 2019

releases, holding press conferences, speaking on the House floor, etc. just isn't paying attention and shouldn't be the least bit surprised if no one takes them seriously.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
3. Totally agree.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:16 PM
Sep 2019

My heart died a little when Adam Schiff said, calmly like he often does, we'll just wait until next Thursday and see how that hearing goes. DUDE PLEASE! Wait a week to hear that he can't answer questions, then filed lawsuits, issue subpoenas, look like idiots. We have not one ounce of balls left.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
21. There's dread and fear in facing what is up in our collective face. Oligarchic rule stares down
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:55 PM
Sep 2019

our democratic rule of law. Rule of law cowers.

Our party faces a fight it's never had to have.

Money trumps power.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
4. Where is our Thomas Paine?
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:18 PM
Sep 2019

"The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious..."

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
7. We're full of Thomas Paines. It's the political will to GO AFTER those who enforce one man rule.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:28 PM
Sep 2019

We out here patiently wait. But only one half of one branch of government is our current recourse.

Some of us quit this political world, walk away, refuse to trust those who take oaths to protect and DEFEND constitutional rule of law.

Unenforced law is no law at all.

Some of us are realizing that we're on our own. No one is coming.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
10. YOYO, I recall the foreign attacks
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:36 PM
Sep 2019

during the bushit administration. The Saudis are not our friends. imo

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
12. The Big Reveal at that time is that bushit's BFF Saudis flew out after Saudis hit twin towers.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:50 PM
Sep 2019

Now this prez calls Saudis our allies -- enough to shrug at the torturous, bloody murder of an American journalist; invite their business in his many businesses; not the least, give them nuclear technology and who knows what else.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
17. It looks as if we're stuck with proving treason, then. It's not proven. No court or Congress
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:10 PM
Sep 2019

Last edited Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

will send anyone for the traitors even if, by this slow grind, treason IS proven.

Adversaries will argue false flag arguments to their voters.

Adversaries will argue a coup, because they know that a huge number of Americans who haven't kept up with legal processes that proved treason will doubt the ruling.

Who will decide to prove treason. Who will call it treason. Who will be sent to arrest the traitor(s). I've read that no entity but the sold out DOJ could do that.

What could go wrong.



saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
19. "The darkest day before the dawn"?
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:20 PM
Sep 2019

I refuse to allow thugs and traitors the opportunity to declare victory without a fight.

Take to the streets, march on Washington, flood the Congress with calls, texts and letters, threaten the cowards with primary challenges if they fail to stand with US. imo

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
20. If only that could do it. It's a hope for dawn, sure. But reality might be a long winter night.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:37 PM
Sep 2019

I love your zeal. They can't jail us all. But they can jail, surveil and crowd control, as we learned during the Occupy time. The DAPL protestors showed that being right, hanging tight doesn't matter when we're up against law enforcement and national guard troops.

Protest has been shown as only temporary, and ultimately a fail.

I'm not being literal when I agree that it's a good hill to die on, though.

I prefer a general nationwide tax strike, which would shut down the machinery of oligarchy in govt.

triron

(21,916 posts)
24. Might work if enough participated. But I don't see much desire of the populace to engage
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:03 PM
Sep 2019

this. We may be going the way of the 3rd Reich or the Romans.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
14. Does that require a Senate vote? Impeachment isn't hardball if it doesn't remove him.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 02:56 PM
Sep 2019

All these remedies are false remedies in the current context that does nor recognize impeachment as anything to honor.

I'm not negative. I'm realistic.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
16. Do what by whom? You think if we could do something we would not have done it?
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:03 PM
Sep 2019

So many calls to do something yet trump has placed his people in every position of power.

Only people in power with guts and integrity can do something. They don’t exist

I am at a loss to know why we don’t have people pledging loyalty to the country, the constitution, the rule of law and to the people.

I don’t know what power trump holds over people. They know trump is evil yet they serve him.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
18. You get it. Our wheel spinning to cul de sacs of subpoenas and courts has sent us to this dead end.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 03:11 PM
Sep 2019

So now what. Now that we've tried everything.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
48. Vote them out of office. We should be spending more time finding good
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 08:13 PM
Sep 2019

candidates and them winning.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
51. That takes too much work
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 10:39 PM
Sep 2019

So much easier to sit at a computer or tap on their phones railing about what Nancy Pelosi isn't doing.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
23. I keep my sanity by fanticising about things that I know
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:00 PM
Sep 2019

probably won't happen. Today's fantasy - Nancy Pelosi announces she is using discretionary funding at her disposal to purchase a secure building in DC and turning it into a detention facility.

Imagine the heads that would explode.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
25. I like it. But who'd make the arrests and deliver the guilty. My fantasy: FBI does it.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:30 PM
Sep 2019

We're at a dead end with upholding Democracy.

1984 is no longer fiction.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
34. S/he just keeps order and safety for House members & doesn't enforce anything, far as I know.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 05:12 PM
Sep 2019

I'm talking Lewandowski style contempt, refusal to answer questions, etc.

Speaker Pelosi was right. Nadler should threaten fines and other penalties for any further obstruction misbehavior by hostile witnesses.

Scalded Nun

(1,231 posts)
27. Don't the DC Police report to Congress and not DOJ?
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:37 PM
Sep 2019

Maybe I am wrong, but if I am right then these assholes can be arrested as they leave the building. If there are no consequences for this shit then no one can expect anything to change.

If the DOJ calls the shots, then tell Barr to start arresting them. If he refuses, go after him. At least all of this treachery will have a formal trail.

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
33. Yes! You nailed it!! I'd forgotten. Someone will have to holler at the House to use the DC police.
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 05:03 PM
Sep 2019

This is the only House means of enforcement left since they've tried all the other doors that open to brick walls.

Then we watch bail, trials, lawyer games; calls for dismissal on technicalities over due process or police mistakes; delayed trials, delayed sentencing, fines, pardons, money buying its way out of our enforcement efforts, and then pardons for all.

Maybe while we wait, the whistleblower's Big Reveal will come. Then we wait through rounds of more testimonies, delayed actions, an eventual impeachment vote.

I hope DC Police will be called on, since Barr's useless.

Yet you hit the practical solution on the head -- one way out of this. You've revived my hope.

A thousand thanks. My day is getting better now.



 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
43. They don't report to either. DC police report to the City of the District of Columbia, which is an
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 07:37 PM
Sep 2019

independent municipal government. DC police report to the DC Police Chief and through her, the Mayor, not DOJ or Congress.

Response to ancianita (Original post)

 

blakstoneranger

(333 posts)
32. The Democratic Committee is a Joke
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 04:57 PM
Sep 2019

ancianita is right! Unless some form of serious enforcement is imposed on these guys they will continue to flaunt their arrogance against the rule of law---for trump. I heard they could have charged manuchin up to $30,000 per day for not turning over tax returns. Barr could also be charge or even sent to jail. The same applies to all of them. But they don't think that Jerry Nadler and the rest has the balls to do anything other than threats. They all seem to be overwhelmed with paperwork. They need to contract out to some really good constitutional experts, academics, lawyers and help them stay a few steps ahead. Because barr is at the center of all of this. He is trump's personal watch dog. Nadler and schif don't seem to know what their doing and it's becoming obvious to everybody. It clearly obvious to the republicans because they've gotten cocky, arrogant, and downright bold to such a degree even kellyanne conway is throwing her finger up to say "f...you!" I hope these guys have some secret plan, because this all looks like a waste of time and taxpayer money! SAVE AMERICA, DUMP TRUMP 2020!!

ancianita

(35,816 posts)
35. I don't call them a joke, you do.They're in an historically unprecedented situation. I'm saying that
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 05:23 PM
Sep 2019

Last edited Thu Sep 19, 2019, 11:22 PM - Edit history (1)

structurally, they are stuck in an enforcement crisis they didn't make.

They're overwhelmed, true, because they're only half of one of the three branches that are trying to oversee the people's government, and you likely understand how that's happened. But.

It's not because Nadler and Schiff don't know what they're doing, you say -- far from it. They keep getting the finger but they're moving at the pace that perfect adherence to the law forces on them.

But explain exactly how is this the fault of the Democratic Committee. Please proceed.

Welcome to DU.


GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
42. OM F'n G. Stop with the unrealistic hysteria!
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 07:35 PM
Sep 2019

There is really not much the House of Representatives alone can do! Does not matter what you read on the internet.

Arrest and Jail them? Give me a break? Who? The Sargent at Arms? His power does not run off the congressional grounds as he is not a federal marshal, whom actually report to the president. And jail them where? DC jails? They do not answer to the House of Representatives.

And say the Sergeant of Arms nabs them in the rotunda of the capital and in locks them away in, I don’t know...the cloak room? With in hours a court would give an injunction. And fines? Whose going to collect it? Nadler and Pelosi going to show up as at their house? Again, no court is going to enforce a House of Representatives fine. They arn’t getting in the way of a separation of powers fight.

All this has been posted by people smarter than I and is readily available to read, if you don’t mind reading facts that piss you off. As they do me. I just see it for what it is.

Keep in mind. AG holder was held in contempt for not showing at a hearing. You think if the republicans could have jailed or fined him they would have held off?

Stop blaming democrats for republicans actions and the limits of the power of the House of Representatives!

Since 16 the only hope was the election of 18. We did good. Now 20 it’s in the balance and it ours to win. Attacking democrats for something they have no power over is counter productive.






GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
46. It was your elegant post last night that made me do it!
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 08:02 PM
Sep 2019

I tried earlier and had given up.

When I mentioned people smarter than me posting on the subject...it was you I had in mind.

I’m as pissed off as anyone. But I have accomplished very little in my life governed by anger. It may motivate, but not direct.

Too many people are reluctant to admit the election of 2020 is the only thing that can change the paradigm. Nothing else.

You have a very nice evening.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
47. You're very kind
Thu Sep 19, 2019, 08:06 PM
Sep 2019

I always appreciate your well-thought-out posts.

You're right. The notion that the Democrats aren't doing anything unless they're running around setting their hair of fire is ridiculous. We need calm, rational, thoughtful leadership right now, not a bunch of hysterical reactionaries channeling the panic of the most freaked-out among us.

Thank God we have grownups in charge.

You have a lovely evening, too.

dlk

(11,438 posts)
53. The Watchdogs Have Been Put to Sleep Over the Past Several Decades
Fri Sep 20, 2019, 12:04 AM
Sep 2019

It makes enforcement challenging, at best.

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