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Wed Aug 14, 2019, 11:41 PM

NEW: Jeff Epstein autopsy found multiple neck bone fractures, which can be caused by suicidal

NEW >>>> Jeff Epstein autopsy found multiple neck bone fractures, which can be caused by suicidal hanging -- but are more commonly found in homicidal strangulation.

The mystery deepens about the death of a billionaire w secrets




Autopsy finds broken bones in Jeffrey Epsteinís neck, deepening questions around his death

An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epsteinís neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adamís apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

... snip

People familiar with the autopsy, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive stage of the investigation, said Sampsonís office is seeking additional information on Epsteinís condition in the hours before his death. That could include video evidence of the jail hallways, which may establish whether anyone entered Epsteinís cell during the night he died; results of a toxicology screening to determine if there was any unusual substance in his body; and interviews with guards and inmates who were near his cell.

Jonathan L. Arden, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, said a hyoid can be broken in many circumstances, but is more commonly associated with homicidal strangulation than suicidal hanging.

More: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken-bones-in-jeffrey-epsteins-neck-deepening-questions-around-his-death/2019/08/14/d09ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

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Reply NEW: Jeff Epstein autopsy found multiple neck bone fractures, which can be caused by suicidal (Original post)
MelissaB Wednesday OP
roamer65 Wednesday #1
jberryhill Wednesday #2
Blue Owl Wednesday #3
jberryhill Thursday #8
lpbk2713 Wednesday #4
raccoon Thursday #15
BigmanPigman Thursday #5
JoeOtterbein Thursday #6
lunatica Thursday #45
brush Thursday #7
njhoneybadger Thursday #14
MelissaB Thursday #25
brush Thursday #33
malaise Thursday #27
Corgigal Thursday #9
Aussie105 Thursday #13
triron Thursday #10
lapfog_1 Thursday #30
7wo7rees Friday #52
ArcticFox Thursday #11
Aussie105 Thursday #12
radius777 Thursday #16
Ilsa Thursday #17
triron Thursday #50
DeminPennswoods Thursday #18
Ron Obvious Thursday #19
DeminPennswoods Thursday #22
Mike 03 Thursday #31
DeminPennswoods Thursday #44
LisaL Thursday #20
DeminPennswoods Thursday #21
NightWatcher Thursday #23
triron Thursday #26
malaise Thursday #28
DeminPennswoods Thursday #46
Autumn Thursday #24
DeminPennswoods Thursday #48
Maine-i-acs Thursday #29
Bradical79 Thursday #35
lunatica Thursday #47
Mike 03 Thursday #32
Bradical79 Thursday #36
librechik Thursday #34
Bradical79 Thursday #37
librechik Thursday #40
harumph Thursday #38
librechik Thursday #41
flotsam Thursday #39
greytdemocrat Thursday #42
triron Thursday #43
triron Thursday #49
triron Friday #51

Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 11:43 PM

1. Look to the White House.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 11:45 PM

2. That's interesting


It would be good if the commenting experts could be provided with a description of the arrangement in which he was found, so that they could determine whether the mechanics would be more or less likely to have caused that breakage.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 11:52 PM

3. Wonder if the forensics will show they've been made by small, little hands...

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Response to Blue Owl (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:46 AM

8. Is that jail on Fifth Avenue, by any chance?

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 11:52 PM

4. If nothing else is conclusive ...



Watch the guards for the next few years. See if they spend more money
than they earn. There was a lot at stake here. Someone who wanted
Epstein silenced could have paid a lot for assistance.

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 06:12 AM

15. Or if the guards have mysterious accidents. Nt

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:13 AM

5. If he hanged himself wouldn't there be ligature marks

on the skin around his neck? I saw a photo of someone who hanged himself and you could almost see what type of material the ligature was made of and how wide it was since the marks were very well preserved...you could even see the texture of the ligature.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

6. Good point.

Money buys most things, but it is becoming more difficult to buy...

the M word without being discovered.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 02:54 PM

45. They would have had to hang him, even post mortem because

he had to be Ďfoundí that way to claim it was a suicide.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

7. Your headline is misleading as that bone being broken is more commonly caused by strangulation.

Why leave that out?

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Response to brush (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 03:51 AM

14. Yes, why leave that out?

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Response to njhoneybadger (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:36 AM

25. It was a copy and paste from the tweet.

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Response to MelissaB (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:05 AM

33. You can edit it though to reflect that that bone break happens more often in strangulation.

The way it is written re-enforces the notion that Epstein hung himself.

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Response to brush (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:38 AM

27. +1,000 n/t

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:50 AM

9. Well, damn.

May I be the first DU'er to say, this shit is now scary.

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Response to Corgigal (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:58 AM

13. Nah!

Happens in Russia and North Korea quite often.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:05 AM

10. From the Houston Chronicle: Suicide appears somewhat unlikely.

"A handful of studies conducted over the past decade have produced conflicting results about the likelihood of a hyoid break in a suicide. In a study of 20 suicidal hangings in Thailand, published in 2010, one-fourth of the men who hanged themselves had broken hyoids. In a larger study of suicidal hangings of young-adults and middle-aged people in India, conducted from 2010 to 2013, hyoid damage was found in just 16 of 264 cases, or six percent. The study addressed the discrepancies in academic reviews, saying wide variations in findings of hyoid breaks are "possibly due to factors like age of the victim, weight of the victim, type of suspension and height of suspension." "

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Response to triron (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:53 AM

30. I would guess (and it's just a guess)

that if one had a platform some distance from the ground... and a noose with a rope long enough to allow the body to accelerate due to gravity... then broken bones in the neck would result.

That, obviously, wasn't the case here.

Another way to break the neck bones would be to apply extreme pressure... likely past the point of consciousness... especially to the back of the neck. Hard to do with a suicide.

I would guess most suicides that do not involve jumping from a ladder or platform show only the cutoff of the windpipe for long enough to cause death and not break the bones in the neck.


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Response to triron (Reply #10)

Fri Aug 16, 2019, 09:24 PM

52. Maybe he strangled himself and had a bedsheet scarf. Confusion solved.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:32 AM

11. Wow, how inconclusive!

That darn hyoid bone fractures in 25% of hangings. So what if strangulation is more likely to break it.

I'm open to the conclusion of homicide, but I'd this is the best evidence . . . .

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:57 AM

12. Yep.

A cell specifically set up to prevent this, yet . . .

Let's not call it a 'possible suicide', call it what it is . . . an unexplained death in secure custody.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 06:28 AM

16. Epstein died in Trump/Barr's custody.

He either died because (a) they were too stupid/incompetent to make sure he stayed alive, or (b) because they wanted him to die.

Dems need to get ahead of this narrative, call for Barr to recuse himself, shine the focus back on Trump/Barr instead of letting them push absurd Clinton conspiracy theories to distract the public.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 06:46 AM

17. I know the guards were exhausted, but what if they

Were drugged to sleep? Too speculative and conspiratorial, I know.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #17)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:02 PM

50. They are using this 'exhaustion' as an excuse.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:27 AM

18. The fact is Epstein strangled himself

by tying, presumably, a bedsheet around his neck, anchoring one end to something high and pulling the other end around his neck tight.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:37 AM

19. That would seem very unlikely to break bones to me

Broken bone in the neck is unlikely in hanging anyway, and while I'm no medical expert, I imagine in the cases where that does occur, the hanging would be done with a rope and jumping from a height. Not a slow strangulation with a bedsheet.

No. Not buying it.

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 09:57 AM

22. When properly done,

hanging breaks your neck.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:54 AM

31. Is this true?

When you hang yourself it's more than suffocating yourself? This is interesting and I had no idea.

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 02:46 PM

44. AFAIK, yes

when done as capital punishment off a gallows, it's supposed to break the neck and sever the spine immediately.

I'd guess it's more likely that a suicide done like Epstein's is asphyxiation, though.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:39 AM

20. As I understand it, he wasn't even hanging, but kneeling.

His noose made out of bed sheet.
Would that break multiple bones? Somehow I find that very questionable.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 09:52 AM

21. Of course he'd have been kneeling

or at some position other than hanging straight down. There's not enough height in a jail cell to leap to your death. Epstein was determined to kill himself and he did. He was facing a long sentence tantamount to spending the rest of his life in prison, not a very appealing prospect to someone who led the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:01 AM

23. There's not enough height to get the bone damage that has been reported

This is very suspect.

His body position leads to the idea of suffocation from a low hang. His injuries scream violent hanging from height with enough force to jerk the body and snap the bones, or a violent strangulation from someone else, possibly with a thin ligature.

This was also his "second attempt". The first left him bruised? So apparently he kicked his own ass before he killed himself, sure, happens all the time.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #23)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:37 AM

26. Houston Chronicle also casts doubt on the 'purported suicide'

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:40 AM

28. You seem so sure of yourself

Were you there?

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Response to malaise (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 03:00 PM

46. Just applying some logic

nt

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:36 AM

24. Except he didn't anchor the bed sheet to something high. He made a noose out of bed sheet,

used the bunk and kneeled forward is how he supposedly killed himself.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 03:02 PM

48. That would've been my guess based on the

information that he was found kneeling.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:49 AM

29. Barr's AG will investigate this fully, right? just like they will the evidence from slave mansion?

anyone?
Bueller?

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Response to Maine-i-acs (Reply #29)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:31 AM

35. Of course he will

And he'll find Clinton's emails stashed under the mattress.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 03:02 PM

47. All 30 thousand of them, I'm sure

Finally! Shit! How long does it take to find someoneís email for Chrissake?!

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:00 AM

32. I do find this raises serious questions

Someone said it's normal to break bones when hanging yourself, but didn't Robin Williams hang himself from a doorknob? I don't remember anyone saying he had broken bones, but I could be mistaken.

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:44 AM

36. Normal in that it happens enough to not be super rare

The height is what I find suspicious, though maybe he launched himself at the floor? Defenitely needs looked into very thoroughly and transparently considering everything else.

1. He's taken off suicide watch very quickly.
2. Gaurds leave him unattended for hours and fudge the records.
3. A fill in gaurd not part of the regular crew that night.
4. Against proper procedure, his cell mate is removed.
5. Broken bones in the neck that sound like the death was more violent than expected, like those of a strangulation.

Even if it was a suicide unintentionally made posible through prison incompetence, all the circumstances around it are like a stereotypical witness assasination you might find in a show or movie, even if each thing taken individualy can have a plausible explanation. It's no wonder conspiracy theories are running wild.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:21 AM

34. where are the security tapes? Did they fall asleep too?

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Response to librechik (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:46 AM

37. My understanding is that the cell itself had no video monitoring

The article did say they'll be looking at footage of the hallways and interviewing nearby inmates to see if someone might have entered the cell.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:58 AM

40. No one will ever buy this story--but won't make any difference

apparently we tolerate political assassinations in this country. Welcome to the gilded age.

Sure hope nothing happens to those tapes. NASA had a helluva time proving they went to the moon since they destroyed all the tapes.
But nobody is suspicious about that. They needed to record over those priceless artifacts because tapes are expensive.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:48 AM

38. Watch them conclude:

(1) The hyoid bone fracture (actually) occurred when his [prior] cellmate attempted to strangle him - but wasn't
discovered.

(2) He strangled himself - alone in his cell from low height with a bed sheet


So... everything wrapped up - nothing to see here!


Of course, that would also be a very clever way to set the stage for the actual strangulation-murder that
was planned for later. It's like retroactively notarizing a document. It's a magician's trick - a
distraction.

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Response to harumph (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 12:00 PM

41. broken hyoid bone is usually the end--can't breathe (or speak) after that. I am skeptical

it might have happened in the earlier attack. That's some serious shit. You don't just recover.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 11:56 AM

39. What did Epstein do last time he was jailed?

Because he sure didn't commit suicide then. He made deals and bought the finest lifestyle available anywhere in the annals of american correctional history. There is no reason not to use that approach this time-and they say money can buy anything in prison.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:04 PM

42. This guy was taken out

He didn't cut a deal fast enough.

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 01:28 PM

43. knr

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 05:20 PM

49. knr

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Response to MelissaB (Original post)

Fri Aug 16, 2019, 12:23 AM

51. knr

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