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Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:00 PM

Here's how you fight the "Socialism" bullshit

Just point out that to Retrumplicans (and I can't stress enough that we should use the term Retrumplican...see the rights use of Democrat Party for reference)

But I digress.

Point out that to Retrumplicans, the following is "socialism"

- The Interstate Highway System

- Rural Electricity Grid

- The Hoover Dam

- Social Security

- Medicare

- Aviation Travel

- The United States military

- Interstate Commerce

- National Parks

- Safe Drinking Water

- VA and FHA loans

- Tornado Warning Systems

- The National Weather Service

The list goes on.

Just about everything we have done on a national or community level would be described as "socialism" by the Retrumplicans... even our "socialist" Constitution.

Don't let them define "socialism" by their standards.

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Reply Here's how you fight the "Socialism" bullshit (Original post)
maxrandb Tuesday OP
Poiuyt Tuesday #1
dawg day Tuesday #3
GulfCoast66 Tuesday #8
TwilightZone Tuesday #12
azureblue Tuesday #19
former9thward Wednesday #23
SidneyR Friday #45
UpInArms Tuesday #2
PandoraAwakened Friday #43
wasupaloopa Tuesday #4
ret5hd Tuesday #6
geardaddy Wednesday #25
Captain Zero Tuesday #7
TwilightZone Tuesday #13
Horizens Tuesday #5
lapucelle Tuesday #9
GulfCoast66 Tuesday #10
bahrbearian Tuesday #11
grumpyduck Wednesday #29
MiniMe Tuesday #14
secondwind Tuesday #15
Trueblue Texan Thursday #40
dflprincess Tuesday #16
HotRod Deluxe Tuesday #17
Sucha NastyWoman Tuesday #18
calimary Tuesday #20
ooky Tuesday #21
Locrian Wednesday #22
Alpeduez21 Wednesday #36
Locrian Wednesday #38
JHB Wednesday #24
struggle4progress Wednesday #26
Yavin4 Wednesday #27
pangaia Wednesday #28
Gothmog Wednesday #30
Gothmog Wednesday #31
kairos12 Wednesday #32
HardLineDem Wednesday #33
mathematic Wednesday #34
Ginger42 Wednesday #35
Democat13 Thursday #39
YOHABLO Wednesday #37
Joe941 Thursday #41
Pachamama Thursday #42
WillowTree Friday #44

Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:05 PM

1. I also like to point out the actual definition of socialism

Namely government owning the means of production and distribution. NOBODY is calling for that. We all want to work within the framework of capitalism--just keep it under control and let the government help when it's in America's best interest to do so (as you described above).

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:15 PM

3. I know-- these people have never read Marx and think "socialism" means--

"things I don't like".

"Things I like" might well include "my dad's social security, the highways I drive on, unemployment, Pell grants"... but they can't be socialism! I like them!

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:25 PM

8. Actually, they are. Read the manifesto of the Democratic Socialist Party.

They are for all the things listed in the OP. But they honestly say that industry should eventually be controlled by the state. Or worker collectives which amounts to the same thing because only government could take them from their current owners and give them to the workers.

I don’t think they are bad people. Just extremely wrong.

But to your point. The socialist label won’t stick with most democratic candidates. They are almost all self proclaimed capitalist.

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:34 PM

12. That's part of the problem.

The politicians referring to themselves as socialists aren't, certainly not in the European sense. Europeans scoff at Bernie being referred to as a socialist.

Regulated capitalism, which is what all of our candidates support, isn't socialism.

"NOBODY is calling for that. "

Actually, the DSA is. They want to blow up capitalism and replace it with real socialism. They debated endorsing Sanders because some of them weren't sure that he could be used to pursue that agenda, because he's not socialist enough for their purposes.

https://www.dsausa.org/bernie-2020-dsa-endorsement-debate-process/

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 11:06 PM

19. or, as Lincoln said

government "of the people, for the people, by the people". Sounds socialistic to me..
Instead of ruling "by the rich, for the rich."
Which is what we have now..

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 07:42 AM

23. Sanders DOES call for that.

He is part of the Democratic Socialists. He is number 2 in most national polls.

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 16, 2019, 07:37 AM

45. Definition of socialism

That's not a complete definition of socialism. Most people just don't seem to understand that it goes deeper than just "government ownership." A more accurate definition of socialism includes the crucial class component: it means the working class as a whole controls the government. It's a mirror image of what exist now, where the "ruling class" controls the government. Just turning over ownership to a capitalist-controlled government is not socialism.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:10 PM

2. Here's been my response ...

Whenever you hear liberals described as "communists" or "socialists," or liberal policy proposals denounced as preemptively authoritarian, it is because men and women are following McCarthyist tactics. Their goal isn't to protect America from possible treason, but to intimidate liberals by forcing them to fend off false accusations about their ideology. It is a classic example of a straw man fallacy but made worse by the facts that (a) it can be used to scare people into silence and (b) it means that policy proposals which might help innocent people won't be implemented. Indeed, everything from the 1960s civil rights movement to virtually all left-wing economic policies have been attacked by those who wish to quiet them as "socialist" or "communist."


From this article

https://www.salon.com/2019/08/11/keep-calling-him-moscowmitch-mcconnell-is-finally-running-scared/

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Response to UpInArms (Reply #2)

Fri Aug 16, 2019, 12:13 AM

43. +1

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:15 PM

4. It is our side that brought up the socialism bullshit. Maybe if Bernie would not have brought it

up we wouldn't have to defend anything. His programs could have been described without the social Democratic or Democratic Socialism meme.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:23 PM

6. Bullshit and you know it.

The right has been decrying every left idea as "communism" for decades.
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Civil Rights
Anti-Trust Legislation
Labor Relations Act
Railway Labor Act
etc etc etc

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 01:21 PM

25. +1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:24 PM

7. the minute Bernie described his programs he was attacked as a socialist.

which comes first the chicken or the egg? Once he was attacked as a socialist he could choose to shuffle off to the side or defend it. He has always chosen to defend it, as we should as it has been outlined here. This is one good way.

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Response to Captain Zero (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:38 PM

13. He's been referring to himself as a socialist for decades.

Sanders, in reference to his first Senate run:

"Do they think I’m afraid of the word? I’m not afraid of the word," he said in an interview with The Nation published in July. "When I ran for the Senate the first time, I ran against the wealthiest guy in the state of Vermont. He spent a lot on advertising — very ugly stuff. He kept attacking me as a liberal. He didn’t use the word ‘socialist’ at all, because everybody in the state knows that I am that."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/aug/26/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-democratic-socialist/

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:22 PM

5. Drop "Socialism" from your vocabulary

When you're explaining, you're defending. When you're defending, you're losing.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:25 PM

9. Isn't it really public purpose spending funded by taxes

in the service of fulfilling the constitutional mandate to "provide for the general welfare"?

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:27 PM

10. None of the things you mentioned are examples of socialism.

They are examples of good governance. Framed like that a large majority of Americans are for them.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 09:28 PM

11. Republican Socialism

Tax Cuts for the Rich
Bank Bailouts
Subsidized Oil ,Gas and Coal
Tax Cuts for the Corps
Endless War for endless MIC

and make the worker pay for it
taxes are for the little people

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #11)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 02:24 PM

29. It would seem that,

if socialism is about production and distribution being owned by the government, the list above is pretty much pointing to what's going on right now: the government easing its way into controlling production and distribution.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 10:10 PM

14. Add police and fire departments

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 10:27 PM

15. Also:

Public schools

Airports

Post Office

Public transportation

Food stamps

Buses, public transportation

Sewage disposal

Etc.

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Response to secondwind (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:37 AM

40. Not the Post Office....

Postal Service is self-supporting from proceeds of services and goods. Have been for decades.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 10:32 PM

16. And there's always

"It is not Socialism to suggest that Americans may benefit from the same kinds of programs other western Democracies have had for decades."

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 10:39 PM

17. Not to mention....

Ask a retrumplican, if your house catches on fire, do you call a contractor to come down and give you an estimate on putting it out?

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 10:48 PM

18. Add to the list

The use of federal lands for grazing cattle on. Although they technically pay a fee/rent it is a very small, token payment, far cheaper than rent for privately owned land.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 11:13 PM

20. Sounds like it's time to bring back this oldie-but-goodie:

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Tue Aug 13, 2019, 11:57 PM

21. When older white reTrumplicans hear "socialism" their brains produce a Nikita Khrushchev

boogeyman image they are afraid will bury them.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 07:32 AM

22. the average person in the US...

has been brainwashed to think they are the cowboy that accomplished everything on their own.
So "socialism" makes them weak and like those "foreign" countries - like a frenchman for goddsakes!!

Meanwhile they're too weak to argue for their fair share of the wealth and let the rich take it from them while they blindly talk about responsibility and being "left alone" - bootstraps and responsibility and all that

Social Security is a good example: they have already PAID into it - and it's supposed to be THEIR money. But they'll whine about it being a ponzie scheme and that it's a terrible burden - letting it get cut, reduced, etc and not fighting for what is rightfully theirs ie not a "handout".

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Response to Locrian (Reply #22)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 04:02 PM

36. Bit no matter how they talk

about cutting Social security cutting my social security tax is never mentioned

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Response to Alpeduez21 (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 04:57 PM

38. I think a lot really do NOT understand how SS works....

They see it as a handout

When in reality it's THEIR money, specifically itemized and paid in over time.
And for some reason they want to just lay down and let them take it.
And you're right, they never mention either giving back or reducing FICA

Crazy... they really are the example of the weaker monkeys giving up their bananas to the "stronger" monkeys.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 08:02 AM

24. Here's how you fight the "socialism" bullshit

Go right to the heart of the matter:

"You guys call everything you don't like 'socialism'.

You guys go on and on about 'European socialism' like you're talking about Warsaw Pact police states, and in the next breath you'll talk about us being the "leader of the free world", and it's the same damn countries!

Your definition of 'socialism' is so wildly over the top it covers this country during the entire freaking Cold War."

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 01:36 PM

26. If you ain't been called a red

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 01:47 PM

27. Those items are not evidence of Socialism

They're evidence of Social Democracy at work. FDR adopted Social Democratic reforms to Capitalism which created the huge American middle class that we saw in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 02:04 PM

28. not actually Socialism

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:03 PM

30. Socialism polls badly and would kill a far left candidate




THE MAIN TAKEAWAYS are that socialism, broadly speaking, is unpopular, but Republicans have work to do if they want to tarnish some key Democratic proposals. Once voters hear about the agenda as framed by Republicans, 61% say it is socialist. Calling Democrats’ policies “socialist” causes a 10-point drop in their popularity.

-- FOR EXAMPLE: Take ‘MEDICARE FOR ALL.’ When asked about supporting Medicare for All, and hearing it described as “guaranteed health care coverage regardless of … income, and every American’s health insurance would come from a single government-run plan,” 41% favor it, 55% oppose and 4% are unsure. When Republicans start describing it as causing “doctor shortages, longer wait times for urgent care and delays in access to the latest drugs for cancer and other serious diseases,” the numbers move to 34% favor and 60% oppose.

-- THE ‘GREEN NEW DEAL’ is actually above water when described as a plan that “would work to address climate change and income inequality, and transition the United States from an economy built on fossil fuels to one driven by clean energy.” 48% favor, 46% oppose and 7% are unsure.

IT SINKS when Republicans start describing it as potentially costing “93 trillion dollars” and hiking energy bills by $3,000. It goes then to 32% support and 61% oppose. Polling memo … Poll deck

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:07 PM

31. From the Washington Post-The GOP is giddy about running against a socialist




Republicans are downright giddy about all this. What’s a scarier term to the American public than “socialist”? And with one of the leaders in the Democratic Party embracing it, their pitch to voters that Democrats want to radically change the country to something unrecognizable just got a lot easier.

“You add up things like packing the Supreme Court, getting rid of the electoral college, the Green New Deal and Medicare for none and you have a prescription of turning America into something it never has been and never should be,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said recently. “So we intend to be on the offense in running our races."

“We’re going into the war with some socialists,” Trump told a fundraiser in April.

This could be the defining debate of the 2020 election. Trump is so happy with that. Sanders is fine with that. The rest of the candidates aren’t so sure. But given the way this debate is shaping up, they may have no choice but to pick a side.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:21 PM

32. The Republican economic plan consists of one rule:

Privatize profits and pass debt and default to the public.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:41 PM

33. Nope, not "Retrumplican"

The correct term is "the Trump Cult". There is no longer a Republican Party.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:43 PM

34. Neither public works nor public welfare are socialist

To summarize:

Liberal Democrat:
Believes public works and public welfare are a responsible and just way to run a capitalist economy.

Democratic Socialist:
Believes public works and public welfare are an effective tactic to eventually abolish capitalism in favor of social ownership.

Revolutionary Socialist:
Believes in voting for Trump et al in order to hasten a collapse in which a radical socialist government can take over and abolish capitalism.

It gets confusing because actual socialists and right wingers are both in favor of muddying the waters around these definitions in order to recruit more people into the socialist movement or defeat liberal democrats, respectively.

It stays confusing because liberal democrats and democratic socialists often share immediate policy goals, at least when contrasted with right wingers, despite having opposing long term goals.

It doesn't help that lots of democratic socialists like to talk about "revolution" too, even when they advocate for a gradualist, non-revolutionary approach. I guess they just like the sound of the rhetoric. You should take these people seriously but not literally, as the old expression goes.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 04:01 PM

35. It's only "socialism" if it's for other people

Husband’s coworker is a staunch Republican. She’s also on a huge list of government programs – food assistance, housing, heating, healthcare. The father of one of her kids is dead so she gets social security for him. And she’s always going on and on about “freeloaders*” getting “socialism*” from the government. In her mind she’s not one of the “freeloaders” because she deserves what she gets from these programs but “other people*” don’t. “Why should I pay for stuff for other people?” It never occurs to her that other people are paying for stuff for her.

There was a ballot measure to increase property taxes a while back to repair our crumbling high school. She told Husband he had to vote for it because her kids needed a better school. Husband saw his chance. “That’s socialism. I don’t have kids in that school. Why should I pay for stuff for your kids?”

She was furious. Didn’t have a good answer but just sputtered a bit and stomped off and wouldn’t talk to him the rest of the day.

Husband: “If I had known it was that easy to get her to stop talking to me, I would have done that ages ago.”

We supported the ballot measure, but he keeps telling her we didn’t because then she gets mad again and won’t talk to him. So why would we want to help “other people” anyway? What’s wrong with us? 1. The school was literally falling down with the gym off limits because it had caved in, and 2. A stupid, uneducated population isn’t good for anyone. It just breeds more Republicans.

*freeloaders = people who get the same stuff she gets but aren’t her
*socialism = stuff that other people get
*other people = black and brown people. Mostly brown because we’re on the rez.

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Response to Ginger42 (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 02:58 AM

39. Sounds So Familiar

Wow! The woman whom you describe sounds like the vast majority of people who live in my area. They complain about the people who might be getting some type of help from the government, while they ignore the fact that they themselves are getting some type of help from the government. If they vote at all, they vote Republican. It is impossible to point out to them that they are voting against themselves. They look down upon anyone who is "poor" because they buy into the Republican lie that people "choose" to be poor. They consider themselves to be "middle class" while they are barely surviving -- usually while working at two or three jobs!

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Wed Aug 14, 2019, 04:47 PM

37. Medicare for All: " 41% favor it, 55% oppose and 4% are unsure."

Where is Politico coming up with these numbers? Politico carries no weight with me.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:50 AM

41. Exactly we need to embrace socialism...

Capitalism is the real enemy.

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:06 PM

42. I just respond by asking them to define Socialism....

I never get a correct answer.... I also ask them to define the difference between socialism and communism....again - never a correct answer....

Interestingly enough - most Democrats I ask, know the differences most of the time and can define what socialism is.

Then I tell them which countries are "Socialist" vs "Communist"....

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Response to maxrandb (Original post)

Fri Aug 16, 2019, 12:21 AM

44. PLEASE drop Social Security and Medicare from your list.

Those are not examples of socialism. They are earned benefits that workers pay into all their working years and can only collect if they have paid in.

I hate it when people suggest those are socialistic programs.

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