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Fri Jul 12, 2019, 12:32 PM

Do Trump/ICE raids equal Kristallnacht?

Hadn't registered in my mind until just now triggered by a recent pic.

"Also known as The Night of the Broken Glass. On this night, November 9, 1938, almost 200 synagogues were destroyed, over 8,000 Jewish shops were sacked and looted, and tens of thousands of Jews were removed to concentration camps."

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Arrow 39 replies Author Time Post
Reply Do Trump/ICE raids equal Kristallnacht? (Original post)
woodsprite Friday OP
MineralMan Friday #1
brooklynite Friday #2
bigbrother05 Friday #3
TheRealNorth Friday #5
hack89 Friday #8
TheRealNorth Friday #11
hack89 Friday #22
TheRealNorth Friday #24
hack89 Friday #31
lame54 Friday #6
jcgoldie Friday #17
brooklynite Friday #21
obamanut2012 Friday #14
backscatter712 Friday #15
Thomas Hurt Friday #26
comradebillyboy Friday #4
TheRealNorth Friday #12
backscatter712 Friday #16
Igel Friday #20
Turin_C3PO Friday #25
Thomas Hurt Friday #28
hack89 Friday #7
highplainsdem Friday #9
dixiegrrrrl Friday #10
Celerity Saturday #36
dixiegrrrrl Saturday #37
Celerity Saturday #39
TheRealNorth Friday #13
Raine Friday #18
Everyman Jackal Friday #19
AncientGeezer Friday #23
Va Lefty Friday #27
Thomas Hurt Friday #29
bearsfootball516 Friday #30
Sneederbunk Friday #32
Behind the Aegis Saturday #33
LineLineNew Reply +
JI7 Saturday #34
DeminPennswoods Saturday #35
UniteFightBack Saturday #38

Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 12:36 PM

1. Hmm...perhaps...

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 12:49 PM

2. You're not going to like this answer: there's nothing illegal or improper about what ICE is doing...

I'll admit that Trump is engaging in symbolic action to rev up his base. BUT, unless yoo endorse a policy of open borders, then these people don't have a right to be in the Country AND have all been through the judicial process. ICE is picking up and deporting people for whom the Courts have issued deportation orders.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 01:04 PM

3. While that may be true, it's the scope of the action that's frightening

Their clear intent is to terrorize not only the targets, but the entire immigrant community.

Sweeping raids that will likely result in collateral injuries or deaths across the country is a message to even the documented aliens to keep their heads down.

Given the numbers they will be looking for, how many mistakes (i.e. similar names, old addresses, etc.) will drag innocents into this disaster?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 01:41 PM

5. There was nothing illegal about Kristalnacht either

Hitler and the Nazis had stripped Jews of any rights by then.

Once you start playing the "well, it's not illegal" game, we have already lost because one way or the other, they will make it legal.

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:00 PM

8. People with judicial deportation orders have no right to stay

what rights are they being deprived of?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:33 PM

11. The right

Not to be stuffed in cages like the Nazis stuffed the Jews in train cars.

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:52 PM

22. Hopefully they are taken straight to the airport.

I agree there is no need to prolong the process.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:08 PM

24. Cool story, bro

Hope you get on the plane too.

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:32 PM

31. How do you think they deport people?

How hard is it to have a plane ready to go? Not like they haven’t had plenty of time to plan this.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 01:56 PM

6. Legal cause they say it is - they can't dictate what is proper...

Your response disgusts me

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Response to lame54 (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:01 PM

17. +1

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Response to lame54 (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:41 PM

21. Bask to the first point: do you support an open border policy where anyone can come and stay?

If so, your policy is inconsistent with every Democratic office holder.

If not, how do you propose to enforce the laws on the books? Again, these people have all had immigration hearings and have all been ordered to be be deported.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:48 PM

14. Kristalnacht was legal

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:53 PM

15. Illegal, no. Improper, yes.

ICE has become the fist of the new Jim Crow. There's nothing proper or decent about what they do.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:22 PM

26. The Conservative morality: If it isn't illegal it is moral, now lets repeal laws and regs...

to make more things moral.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 01:06 PM

4. It's easy to over do the Nazi parallels.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:39 PM

12. Are you waiting until you wake up one morning

And when they're all wearing swastikas, and then you will be comfortable with calling them fascists?

Granted there are different degrees to their actions and what our responses should be, but to not see the parallels is willing blindness.

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:54 PM

16. Yep. The Nazis didn't go all the way to murdering 12 million people overnight.

They built up to it.

So yes, I'd say we're about the same place as Germany was in about 1933 or so. The death count wasn't in the millions yet at the time - they were still in the deport-the-Jews phase. The "showers" and ovens came later.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:33 PM

20. A lot of people sound like Soviet revolutionaries did c. 1906.

That doesn't mean that in 12 years they're going to take over the US and in 23 years we'll start purges.

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Response to Igel (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:15 PM

25. We're a lot closer to 30s Germany

than 1906 Russia. There’s currently not a communist threat but there damn sure is a fascist one. But I think you know that.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:26 PM

28. Trump and his admin have nothing to with Nazis...

Nazis were of a certain time and place in history.

Trump is a modern day American fascist.

A fear mongering, scapegoating, racist, misogynistic, religion co-opting, militaristic, ultranationalist, fascist.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 01:58 PM

7. No. ICE has been arresting and deporting people for a very long time. nt

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:01 PM

9. No.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:07 PM

10. The round-ups occured before and after Kristallnacht, all over the country

so that comparison is somewhat limited to a single event.

Another "night" that we could see repeated in history is Night of the Long Knives.

The purge of Nazi leaders by Adolf Hitler on June 30, 1934. Fearing that the paramilitary SA had become too powerful, Hitler ordered his elite SS guards to murder the organization's leaders, including Ernst Röhm.
Also killed that night were hundreds of other perceived opponents of Hitler.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Night-of-the-Long-Knives

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #10)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 06:00 AM

36. Who would be the targets in a Night of the Long Knives redux?

Trump, to duplicate that, would have to go after Rethugs, not Dems, as it was an internal Nazi purging. Only thing (and it is not totally congruous) I could think of would be military leaders who were tested and refused to go along with a true Rump/Rethug military coup that would install him as dictator for life (to be followed by Ivanka perhaps).

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Response to Celerity (Reply #36)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 12:48 PM

37. I see the closest similarity to the Brownshirts that hitler purged


as the right-wing armed groups, which, at this point, trump still sees as helpful goons.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 06:09 PM

39. Well, the Sturmabteilung had 3 million members at its peak, and were a fullblown paramilitary force.

The ragtag neo-nazis and white power/nationalist scum (the 'organised' ones), in the US are nowhere near as numerous and certainly not equal in organisation and military power. Their threat level to overthrowing Rump (the SA was deffo a threat to having a coup versus Hitler, as the official army, the Reichswehr, was limited to only 100,000 standing members) pales in comparison.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 02:45 PM

13. Good point

I mean, this is political theater that is trying to get people "used to" these sudden raids and round-ups of "undesirables". Its not like they couldn't accomplish the same goal of arresting the undocumented immigrants over a longer period of time.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:17 PM

18. No nt

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 03:25 PM

19. No

One difference is that some cities I don't know how many are refusing to give ICE any help which is their right under the Constitution.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 04:12 PM

23. No

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:24 PM

27. No, but I'll reserve final judgement

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:27 PM

29. It isn't Kristallnacht, but it is fascist.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:29 PM

30. No

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Fri Jul 12, 2019, 09:47 PM

32. No.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 03:37 AM

33. No.

Stench of appropriation.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #33)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 03:41 AM

34. +

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 05:50 AM

35. Similar to the Palmer Raids of the 1920s

when Americans were terrified of immigrants after a bombing on Wall Street said to carried out by Italian anarchists.

As I understand it, there were also regular raids on homes of Italians and Germans during WWII because of fear they would somehow signal Germany and Italy.

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Response to woodsprite (Original post)

Sat Jul 13, 2019, 12:52 PM

38. Why would you even make this comparison??? Why is this even a question? nt

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