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Thu Jun 27, 2019, 05:24 AM

 

Is the end result of our capitalist system slavery or obsolescence?as in robots replacing us?

Will the workers of the world ever have control of "our" government. feeling pissed off and exhausted, in need of feedback, whatever is cool. Are we changing into something better? young people especially I would like to hear from because I feel done. thanx for your input.

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Reply Is the end result of our capitalist system slavery or obsolescence?as in robots replacing us? (Original post)
happyaccident Jun 2019 OP
rampartc Jun 2019 #1
watoos Jun 2019 #3
rampartc Jun 2019 #9
Sherman A1 Jun 2019 #2
happyaccident Jun 2019 #4
watoos Jun 2019 #7
happyaccident Jun 2019 #18
leftstreet Jun 2019 #29
appalachiablue Jun 2019 #30
Sherman A1 Jun 2019 #10
happyaccident Jun 2019 #15
watoos Jun 2019 #5
Sherman A1 Jun 2019 #11
misanthrope Jun 2019 #19
happyaccident Jun 2019 #22
misanthrope Jun 2019 #24
Sherman A1 Jun 2019 #31
misanthrope Jun 2019 #32
trev Jun 2019 #14
happyaccident Jun 2019 #16
2naSalit Jun 2019 #27
Buckeyeblue Jun 2019 #6
watoos Jun 2019 #8
Buckeyeblue Jun 2019 #13
sop Jun 2019 #12
happyaccident Jun 2019 #17
brooklynite Jun 2019 #20
happyaccident Jun 2019 #23
Initech Jun 2019 #21
SlogginThroughIt Jun 2019 #25
2naSalit Jun 2019 #28
democratisphere Jun 2019 #26

Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 05:37 AM

1. "In the long run we are all dead. " keynes

it is difficult to imagine any economic system that can maintain over 7 billion (with a bullet) humans in any kind of peace or prosperity. i'm not sure if our system can be properly called "capitalism" but this can certainly not be sustained without significant changes.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:11 AM

3. "Crony capitalism"

 

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Response to watoos (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:43 AM

9. gangster capitalism, monopolistic capitalism

i was tending toward "corporate feudalism" for a while, but the lords had some responsibility for their vassals which does not exist today.

maybe it is a neo confederate mercantilism or, maybe, an ayn rand offshoot of fascism they are calling "public choice economics."

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 05:53 AM

2. This is why I support Andrew Yang in this campaign for 2020

As he has looked at the coming of AI in his book and has policies to address the changes that we are currently and about to encounter.



From his campaign website

https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/

In the next 12 years, 1 out of 3 American workers are at risk of losing their jobs to new technologies—and unlike with previous waves of automation, this time new jobs will not appear quickly enough in large enough numbers to make up for it. To avoid an unprecedented crisis, we’re going to have to find a new solution, unlike anything we’ve done before. It all begins with Universal Basic Income for all American adults, no strings attached – a foundation on which a stable, prosperous, and just society can be built.

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:19 AM

4. Its going to get worse, with capitalism there is no "just society"

 

the universal basic income will make the capitalist overthrow complete. Why would people revolt and lose they're livelihood? If there are no consumers there is no capitalist masters ,there is no capitalism without labor but there is definitely labor without capitalism. Fuck it, i'm a socialist, I think capitalism is a cancer, the good it does isn't worth it. come at me, american free marketers!!

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:27 AM

7. What makes it worse

 

is that we have crony capitalism.

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Response to watoos (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:36 PM

18. All capitalism is crony capitalism because it isn't an economic system

 

It's a system of control and wealth ("surplus" ) redistribution. Once you get rich you have to choose money over community(country). There's really no option. Democracy and capitalism can never work together. It isn't working now. The ruling class only worries about losing power, not about what's best for the actual people who live here and who they depend on for their existence in the first place.

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:53 PM

29. +1

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 09:34 PM

30. Yet a mix of democracy and capitalism is working in Scandinavia,

a horse of a different color in ways, but still...

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:56 AM

10. What impact would Universal Basic Income have on the economy?

The Roosevelt Institute found that adopting an annual $12,000 basic income for every adult U.S. citizen over the age of 18 would permanently grow the economy by 12.56-13.10 percent—or about $2.5 trillion by 2025—and it would increase the labor force by 4.5-4.7 million people.

This is because putting money in people’s hands grows the economy, particularly when those people need the money and will spend it. Imagine a small town in Missouri with 5,000 qualifying residents. A $12,000 UBI would bring an extra $60 million of additional income into the community, most of which would be spent locally. Then imagine that playing out in every community in the country, big and small. Communities everywhere will have more vibrant local economies, creating more jobs and leading to new businesses.

https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/

What are the benefits of Universal Basic Income?

Universal Basic Income would transform society in many positive ways and evidence shows this. Trials have led to all kinds of benefits—some expected, some surprising. Here are just a few of them:

UBI encourages people to find work. Many current welfare programs take away benefits when recipients find work, sometimes leaving them financially worse off than before they were employed. UBI is for all adults, regardless of employment status, so recipients are free to seek additional income, which most everyone does.
UBI reduces bureaucracy—with no-strings-attached coverage, determining who is eligible is far simpler and the cost of administering benefits is greatly reduced.
UBI increases bargaining power for workers because a guaranteed, unconditional income gives them leverage to say no to exploitative wages and abusive working conditions. Employers can’t push workers around as much.
UBI increases entrepreneurship because it provides for basic needs in the early lean days of a company and acts as a safety net if the business fails. It also gives you more consumers to sell to because everyone has more disposable income. The Roosevelt Institute found that a UBI would create 4.6 million jobs and grow the economy by 12 percent continuously. UBI would be the greatest catalyst for new jobs, entrepreneurship, and creativity we have ever seen.
UBI improves the mental health of recipients because it reduces conditions of scarcity, poverty, and financial insecurity, major sources of stress for millions of people.
UBI helps people make smarter decisions. Studies have shown that people in straits of economic insecurity have a reduced cognitive ability equal to 13 IQ points. UBI would provide the security people need to focus on important things like their families.
UBI improves physical health. With increased economic security, people are less prone to stresses, disease, and self-destructive behavior. A UBI experiment in Canada saw hospitalization rates go down 8.5%.
UBI increases art production, nonprofit work and caring for loved ones because it provides a supplementary income for those interested in labor that isn’t supported by the market.
UBI improves labor market efficiency because fewer workers are stuck in jobs that are a bad fit. National productivity will improve because people will be able to seek work that is more rewarding and promote higher job satisfaction.
UBI improves relationships by reducing domestic violence, child abuse, financial stresses, and sources of conflict. It ensures that everyone has an optimistic sense of his or her own future and has the mobility to get out of abusive relationships.
It’s amazing what a steady source of money can do to transform people’s lives. We can experience it here in America if we adopt Universal Basic Income and make it real; we are the wealthiest and most technologically advanced society in human history. It’s time to invest in our people.

Imagine your life and that of everyone you know with an extra $1,000 per month – how would you spend it? How would things change?

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 02:51 PM

15. I would worry about losing it

 

Labor built the middle class, capitalism sucked it dry. It did it with slaves first, then ransacked the world for cheap labor and no regulations (which I like to call "protections" then finally the american middle class. Just follow the end result of capitalism without all the propaganda surrounding it (it's hard). The end result isn't slavery, it's more like a parasite sucking blood out of everything it touches. Nothing matters but profit for shareholders, which is one of the greatest con jobs next to religion. 80% of shares go to 20% of the people. The worst thing about capitalism? No long term thinking. Why am I even still upset about this? We are riding this capitalistic train to a hellscape we can't even imagine. It would be easier to get on board, stop my bitching. EVER SINGLE THING THAT MAKES LIFE WORTH LIVING WAS FORCED OUT OF THE RULING ELITE. This includes the bill of rights(to avoid a second american revolution) to EVERYTHING that makes modern jobs livable(the labor moment) Capitalism is just a wealth redistribution process, it CANNOT coexist with any form of representative democracy. Thanks for this space to talk, it's wonderful to speak my mind.

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:25 AM

5. Capitalism certainly results in monopolies.

 

The demise of unions, only 6% of the private sector is unionized, is a killer.

AI and robots are replacing unskilled workers and even skilled workers now.

I went on vacation last week and some of the toll booths have replaced workers with cameras, so yes, workers are being replaced by technology.

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Response to watoos (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:59 AM

11. Workers are being replaced by technology

and we are just at the start of this revolution. After the low hanging fruit of the remaining Manufacturing, Retail, Transportation and Warehousing are automated with AI jobs that we never considered to be vulnerable will be the next on the list. I see many teachers, professionals and alike being subject to replacement.

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:42 PM

19. Well, it won't go on for too many more decades

Once the effects of climate change really take hold, civilization is going to become so unstable that technological innovation will falter then stop altogether. We will slide back into more brutal times.

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Response to misanthrope (Reply #19)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 04:24 PM

22. I think technologogical innovation will be the last thing to go

 

All you need is the means of production and a desperate populace willing to do horrible thing to survive. The rich think they can survive the collapse, they can't consider anything else. Let's live on the moon! And high technology will be used to consolidate power and control. We won't have access to it, it just seems that we do now. Hey, your name is how I feel today! Sorry I'm kind of a bummer. I'm going to go play in my garden with my cat now...

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:04 PM

24. You need infrastructure and stable weather

Take it from someone who grew up in Dixie Alley (tornadoes) and now lives on the central Gulf Coast, heat and severe weather wreak havoc on the systems on which we rely. Without organizations from beyond the affected areas and others lending aid, things grind to a halt quickly.

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Response to misanthrope (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 28, 2019, 05:33 AM

31. Perhaps

or perhaps we will point ourselves in a more sustainable direction prior to that coming to pass.

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #31)

Fri Jun 28, 2019, 01:57 PM

32. Perhaps we will

but that would mean defying most all historical evidence. Humans are typically so bad at proactivity as to almost render it impossible. The larger the group of people, the more inertia you have to overcome.

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Response to watoos (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 10:56 AM

14. Technology has always displaced workers.

No way to prevent that.

IMO, it is not capitalism, but monopolies, that is the problem.

The early 20th Century saw a spate of government laws breaking up trusts and monopolies. Teddy Roosevelt broke up 43 corporations.

In my lifetime, there was the breakup of AT&T (1982). That's the last one I remember.

Nowadays, it seems like corporations are pretty much nothing but monopolies....

I think capitalism is a good system. It created the Middle Class. But it must be regulated.

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Response to trev (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:04 PM

16. The difference now is robots and AI are taking the jobs

 

The end result of capitalism IS monopoly. And when we tried to regulate them, they became multi-national. capitalism isn't small mom and pop stores, in fact most businesses in america aren't. Capitalism is the process of using capital to create monopolies and corner the market. It's a brutal system doing what it has designed to do... keeping the ruling elites in power. And labor built the middle class, capitalism just destroyed it. Now who's next?

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Response to happyaccident (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:51 PM

27. +1

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:25 AM

6. The consumer doesn't realize how much power they have

We can make or break stores. We could very quickly bring banks to their knees. The problem is that we are also the workers at these stores (or suppliers of the stores) and banks. Our retirement accounts are invested in these stores and banks. The economy is so intertwined that we feel powerless to do anything but move on.

The last three years have also taught us that our system of government is broken. The minority is holding all of the power right now. And the constitution is next to impossible to amend. This strange mix of states rights vs. Federal guarantee is confusing.

The president may have too much power.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 07:40 AM

8. Consumers eat their own,

 

When Walmart first came to town I told people not to shop there. I told people to buy American to support their local businesses. I knew and grew up with the people who ran the small appliance, small hardware, small country stores and so I supported them, still do with the ones who have not been run out business by Walmart and others.

Consumers made the choice to support China, to buy cheap Chinese products. Monopolies result in fewer workers. If Walmart had not come to town we would have more people working.

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Response to watoos (Reply #8)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 09:49 AM

13. You're right

Consumers did choose to not support the local economy. Mostly because most people don't understand the economy. Which is why small towns are dying.

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:41 AM

12. Thomas Jefferson warned that if we had a government run by the rich

the working class would inevitably end up "glad to obtain subsistence by hiring (them)selves to rivet chains on the necks of (their) fellow sufferers."

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Response to sop (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:26 PM

17. Fuck Thomas Jefferson, he absolutely believed in government by the rich.

 

"we the people" is another myth. It didn't mean black, native, women or whites without property. It didn't include everyone I've ever known., including me. The emancipation proclamation didn't free slaves(it said the south couldn't have slaves outside the union. the 14th amendment ended most slavery (except for prison) which was used to give corporations personhood and the south actually won the civil war(the north just got a better negotiating position, virtually all southern institutions and ruling class stayed the same)Reconstruction was a failure and every depression and recession was manufactured in some way and used to suck up assets and wealth. Another thing about Jefferson? Didn't free his slaves even when he died, causing Washington to give him shit for it. Jefferson's excuse? 4%. Every slave born on his land increased his wealth by 4%. He loved that number, it was the best profit he could possibly make. And Sally Hemmings was a half white slave who had 3/4 white slave children.His children, treated better than his other slaves but still slaves. Who does that? Have your own children be your slaves? Damn, just woke up,ready to fight... rant over.

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:47 PM

20. Would we still be hiring telephone operators in a Socialist paradise?

Automation is part of human progress. Any economic system will adopt it.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 04:41 PM

23. It's not a paradise, it's harder work than what we have now, requires more responsibility to society

 

It's what we do with the surplus (produced by workers, taken by capitalists) and what kind of world we want to live in. Soon most of us will be useless, replaced by automation. Then what? It's been happening among people I know for decades, the replacement of living wage jobs with this fucking "gig" economy. We need to work in order to live. All automation is not good, but our system doesn't even acknowledge anything beyond short-term profits. And yes, we will be hiring telephone operators in my Socialist Paradise because those jobs are good for the disabled and the elderly. And we would get better service talking to a real person. I would like to live in a world where the vast majority of people could have priority over a few rich families. That's all. I don't care what it's called.

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 03:52 PM

21. Neither, it's wage slavery.

Keep them drowning in debt, and pay them just the bare minimum so that all they can pay is the bare minimum on said debt with no chance of ever getting out of it. And keep increasing the interest rates so that the idea and prospect of living debt free is not achievable. And create a system where those who have tremendous debt funnel all the money to the millionaires and billionaires. That's pretty much where we're at right now.

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:14 PM

25. We never got rid of slavery.

We just changed the way it looks.

Pay people shit wages that allow them to feed, clothe, and house themselves and maybe have some toys to keep themselves happy, but the slavers are still there raking in 300 times what their “entry level employee” makes.

Now don’t get me wrong I am not trying to equate todays version to the brutal, horrific past at all. But we are all a slave to capitalism and are ground down inder its wheels.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:53 PM

28. +1

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Response to happyaccident (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2019, 08:19 PM

26. Now as in the past. One solution.


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