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Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:15 AM

Rachel Maddow explains how Democrats are overthinking impeachment: 'Who cares who it's good for?'

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/06/rachel-maddow-explains-how-democrats-are-overthinking-impeachment-who-cares-who-its-good-for/?comments=disqus

MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow said the political considerations of impeachment are beside the point.

Maddow appeared on “Late Night With Seth Meyers,” where she told the host that Democrats had a constitutional duty to investigate President Donald Trump by opening an impeachment inquiry — regardless of the unknowable political consequences.

“If a president commits high crimes and misdemeanors,” she said, “the way the Congress is supposed to hold him accountable is by opening an impeachment inquiry, doing an investigation and then voting on whether or not they think that it rises to that level.”

>SNIP<

“Whether or not that hurts the president, helps the president, hurts the Democrats, helps the Democrats, A, is unknowable and, B, should be beside the point,” Maddow said, “and if you are doing it for the right reasons I think you are more likely to persuade the country that you’ve done it for the right reasons, rather than you having tried to think everybody around the corner in terms of how this is supposed to work out.”


just a little bit more at link...

105 replies, 3836 views

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Reply Rachel Maddow explains how Democrats are overthinking impeachment: 'Who cares who it's good for?' (Original post)
Javaman Jun 12 OP
Chin music Jun 12 #1
shraby Jun 12 #2
wasupaloopa Jun 12 #3
Chin music Jun 12 #5
Hortensis Jun 12 #15
Chin music Jun 12 #16
Hortensis Jun 12 #24
Chin music Jun 12 #27
Hortensis Jun 12 #36
Chin music Jun 12 #39
Hortensis Jun 12 #41
wasupaloopa Jun 12 #43
Chin music Jun 12 #67
uponit7771 Jun 12 #65
Chin music Jun 12 #68
patphil Jun 12 #18
wasupaloopa Jun 12 #44
uponit7771 Jun 12 #66
HopeAgain Jun 12 #22
Chin music Jun 12 #25
watoos Jun 12 #33
Chin music Jun 12 #35
wasupaloopa Jun 12 #50
ChubbyStar Jun 12 #53
standingtall Jun 12 #64
GeorgeGist Jun 12 #88
CentralMass Jun 12 #4
marylandblue Jun 12 #6
honest.abe Jun 12 #9
marylandblue Jun 12 #12
Chin music Jun 12 #14
honest.abe Jun 12 #19
marylandblue Jun 12 #48
honest.abe Jun 12 #57
marylandblue Jun 12 #62
honest.abe Jun 12 #69
marylandblue Jun 12 #75
honest.abe Jun 12 #77
watoos Jun 12 #10
marylandblue Jun 12 #76
ProfessorPlum Jun 14 #102
marylandblue Jun 14 #103
ProfessorPlum Jun 14 #104
watoos Jun 12 #7
Chin music Jun 12 #8
Ligyron Jun 12 #26
Chin music Jun 12 #29
watoos Jun 12 #38
honest.abe Jun 12 #11
CaptainTruth Jun 12 #13
OnlinePoker Jun 12 #17
Chin music Jun 12 #20
shockey80 Jun 12 #21
Chin music Jun 12 #23
BeyondGeography Jun 12 #28
watoos Jun 12 #45
BeyondGeography Jun 12 #46
wasupaloopa Jun 12 #54
AlexSFCA Jun 12 #30
Chin music Jun 12 #37
AlexSFCA Jun 12 #40
FakeNoose Jun 12 #71
NoMoreRepugs Jun 12 #31
watoos Jun 12 #47
NoMoreRepugs Jun 13 #97
comradebillyboy Jun 12 #32
Chin music Jun 12 #42
comradebillyboy Jun 12 #49
Chin music Jun 12 #51
watoos Jun 12 #56
Post removed Jun 12 #52
Chin music Jun 12 #55
Trumpocalypse Jun 12 #59
Chin music Jun 12 #60
Trumpocalypse Jun 12 #61
Chin music Jun 12 #63
Trumpocalypse Jun 12 #70
Chin music Jun 12 #72
watoos Jun 12 #74
Trumpocalypse Jun 12 #58
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 12 #34
Laura PourMeADrink Jun 12 #73
Grasswire2 Jun 12 #85
Laura PourMeADrink Jun 12 #89
grumpyduck Jun 12 #78
JHB Jun 12 #82
Catch2.2 Jun 12 #79
bdamomma Jun 13 #100
Catch2.2 Jun 13 #101
Nevermypresident Jun 12 #80
qazplm135 Jun 12 #81
ChubbyStar Jun 12 #83
watoos Jun 12 #84
Grasswire2 Jun 12 #86
qazplm135 Jun 12 #90
triron Jun 12 #91
qazplm135 Jun 12 #93
triron Jun 12 #87
spanone Jun 12 #92
Irishxs Jun 12 #94
SunSeeker Jun 12 #95
SergeStorms Jun 13 #96
bdamomma Jun 13 #98
ecstatic Jun 13 #99
triron Jun 14 #105

Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:17 AM

1. Exactly.

Well said, and so true.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:22 AM

2. I agree with Maddow

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:23 AM

3. No! If it hurts the Democrats people like us are screwed for more years to come.

Rachel makes 7 million a year she can ride out anything, we can’t. We need to get on with making a better world for ourselves and those that come after. If it takes letting trump off the hook so be it.

And saying that is political misses the point. It is about what our lives will be like. We can pass progressive legislation if we control government.

Impeachment will not get rid of trump. Only we can do that with our votes

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:30 AM

5. We are going to pay either way at this point.

Why give trump and the gop a pass? There's 2 parties. Ones not doing anything. When Americans feel the pain, they turn away from the party causing it. We are not co dependents of gop bad behavior. If the country fails, why are we making them guilt-free?
ps....the voting is rigged. The russians can do it now, and the gop has done zero to stop that bc they benefit.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:55 AM

15. No, we're going to win. THAT's our goal.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:05 AM

16. Yes. That's the plan. If we follow the law. Like RM suggests.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #16)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:37 AM

24. Wish it were that simple. Hillary followed the law

and had a very ambitious agenda supported by solid plans that would have benefited everyone in America. How'd that work out. And why?

Everything they did to her could be done to us, and without popular support to begin with we would be easy targets for a massive smear depicting us as just as unprincipled as the Republicans but without their strength. Nothing succeeds like success, but success would go to the Republicans. Just like Kavanaugh's hearing, without the power to succeed we'd be the failures, weak, sickeningly disappointing to those who care, unable to do anything right. We're surrounded here with people already wallowing determinedly in their peculiar enjoyment.

Speaking of Kavanaugh, how'd that work out? Did we get a big bump in approval for trying to do what was only very right?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:41 AM

27. Yo Hort...the russians interfered.

We didn't lose on our own. How's it going to work out if we don't fix the voting system, and inform voters like the folks who heard the good news in Justin Amashes town hall meeting?
Not sure why you're fighting against what she said, but, it's certainly your perogative. I trust Rachel Maddows daily, in depth news analysis, over us 'amatuers' on DU. I also agree w folks like Sen Warren And 60+ other Dems and legal historians and law professors like Lawrence Tribe. That's how I come to my renderings I guess.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:52 AM

36. Chin, the Russians are right here. And they're joined by

China, Iran, and other hostile states who've taken the big lesson in how to bring us down. I believe this entire subject is being augmented and spread by them. Encourage us to impeach now, before our case is too strong for them to defeat.

I trust our pros in congress who are carrying the future of our nation on their shoulders. We MUST win this next election.

I live in Georgia. The entire world watched as the governor's election was stolen here. Of course it was massively illegal in many ways, but with Republicans in power we were unable to use legal means to stop him from taking office. Republicans in other states also took a lesson -- that they can do it there also.

As for the federal government, we're just one more hard-right "originalist" justice and a handful of years away from the America we grew up in being a thing of the past, of putting citizens they don't like in detention camps, and of course, our ability to talk about what they're doing risk and fear.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:54 AM

39. I hear what your saying.

I think it has to be more than up to the next election. Impeachment is mandated by the laws we hold dear. It doesn't say...think about the equities, then do what you think. I appreciate your input.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:56 AM

41. Same. I'll do my best to make sure we can continue.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:58 AM

43. well I am glad you don't have the crystal ball

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:37 AM

67. Or the magic conch.

Wish I did. Heh heh.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:34 AM

65. THANK YOU !!! Might as well go down fighting !!!

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #65)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:37 AM

68. +1z

No...thank you.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:21 AM

18. Very true, only our votes will get rid of Trump, but

We need to educate the American public to the true nature of Trump.
Impeachment may not lead to conviction, but it will bring all the truth out into the open.
I don't believe this process will hurt the Democrats.
Truth is always the best path, and following the rule of law shows strength, not weakness.
I have observed the American political process for over 50 years, including the Nixon impeachment hearings.
Letting Trump off the hook is a violation of the Congressmen's oath of office.
It will go a long way toward handing Trump a second term.

This is about doing what's right, not what's expedient.

Patrick Phillips

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Response to patphil (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:01 AM

44. What the hell is this "we need to educate the American people" shit? The American people will not

take lessons from us. How fucking arrogant to think we need to teach the American people.

Over half know trump is evil and the rest don't care. We are not going to teach the American people anything.

Also cutting off your nose to spite your face makes no sense either. If doing the "right thing" gets you more years in the wilderness it isn't the right thing.

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Response to patphil (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:36 AM

66. Why do you believe 2020 will be more free and fair than 2016 or 2018 senate races?

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:30 AM

22. And appeasing the Trumpers helps?

I totally don't get that.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:38 AM

25. How's it appease trumpers? bc they SAY they want impeachment?

They are conning you bc they think they are being taken as honest dealers. They are hoping beyond hope that impeachment doesn't happen. The whole "DO IT!" meme from the right is last ditch desperation.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #25)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:50 AM

33. Yup, you nailed it,

one of the guys who wrote one of Trump's books stated that impeachment would devastate Trump. Trump is not a strong person, he constantly needs praise and reassurances, that's why he brought his family into the White House.

Daily televised impeachment hearings will give Trump a nervous breakdown.

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Response to watoos (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:52 AM

35. Remember what he said when he heard about the Mueller Investigation..."I'm fucked."

Doesn't sound like the underlying facts that forced that exclamation, has changed any. I may be wrong.

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Response to watoos (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:09 AM

50. Daily televised hearing when there isn't a helicopter crash or mass shooting. I really doubt there

will be daily televised hearings. We have no documents, no factual witnesses, we do not control the media.

Too much of these opinions are based on Watergate. This is 2019 not 1974. People need their phony reality shows and Fox is not going to help educate the American people.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #25)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:15 AM

53. The right reeks of desperation. They are swimming in flop sweat

It would be comical if it were a Mel Brooks movie, you know, two dumb shits are fighting when one says to the other "hey, let's turn this around and use reverse psychology", but it isn't a movie and the tactics are real. I say bring them what they are asking for.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:34 AM

64. If we don't impeach Trump there is no way we will have enough energy to retake the senate

even if we take back the White House and none of our legislation especially progressive legislation will get through the republican senate. We will then lose the house in 2022 and another republican will be President come 2024 without us making a lick of progress. Time to stop playing it by what we think is safe and take some risk if we are ever going to bring about meaningful reforms.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 04:45 PM

88. Bet you gave Bush a pass too ...

how did that work out?

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:29 AM

4. I agree.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:32 AM

6. Her argument is self contradictory.

She says we should ignore the political consequences and impeach because politically we are more likely convince people we didn't do it for political reasons.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:38 AM

9. No.

She didn't say to do it "because we are more likely convince people we didn't do it for political reasons." That just a side benefit of impeaching for the right reasons.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:44 AM

12. She literally gave it as a reason after she said it didn't matter.

It's not a "side benefit," it's a way of fooling
people into believing it isn't political. If you really want to prove it isn't political, you should be for impeachment even if we knew for certain that it means we won't get a conviction and Trump will be re-elected.

Ask yourself that question. It's a hypothetical to test your moral resolve, not something we can really know. If you knew for certain that impeachment would guarantee a Trump re-election would you still do it?

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:52 AM

14. The only way trump got elected in the first place was w russian help.

He's not gaining any votes. Ifwe get to the root of it, election interference can be better handled, and he won't win. Hillary won BTW.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:21 AM

19. That is not what she said.

Here are the exact quotes:

Whether or not that hurts the president, helps the president, hurts the Democrats, helps the Democrats, A, is unknowable and, B, should be beside the point,” Maddow said, “and if you are doing it for the right reasons I think you are more likely to persuade the country that you’ve done it for the right reasons, rather than you having tried to think everybody around the corner in terms of how this is supposed to work out.”


It was after she said "if you are doing it for the right reasons" she stated the rest of the quote clearly meaning as a side benefit.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:08 AM

48. Yeah, I know what she said, but she is being disingenuous.

The future is unknowable - Of course it is! This is just a part of life. We make our best guess about the future then decide accordingly. There is no other way to do anything. An unknowable future is no reason to do or not do anything.

Then she adds, here's a side benefit - we'll vote Trump out. Isn't that our REAL goal anyway. To get Trump out. Why is the "side benefit" the very thing we've been obsessed with for the last 3 years?

If you want to be a moral hero, give yourself the test. To take a true moral stand, you must take it when the consequences may be negative. Would you jump on a hand grenade to save others? That person is a hero.

So do you want to be a hero? Would you impeach Trump even if you knew it would mean his re-election? That is, would impeach, even if it was very detrimental to your side?

If you say yes, congratulations, you are moral hero. If you say no or unsure, congratulations, you are normal person. You are taking politics into consideration. As I am.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #48)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:18 AM

57. No she is not.

She is saying exactly what many are saying and it makes total sense to me. It is simply the right thing to do and to include baseless speculation regarding the political effects in the decision making process is foolish.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:25 AM

62. Baseless speculation that she speculated about anyway.

But she didn't say we should impeach no matter what, and neither will you. That tells me all I need to know.

I don't want to impeach because I believe it will hurt our chance of voting Trump. Just like I'm voting in the primaries for the person who I think can best be Trump, without knowing if I am right or not.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:40 AM

69. You certainly are consistent at incorrectly defining what she is saying.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #69)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:48 AM

75. My point might be more clear if we left her out of it for the moment.

Would you personally favor impeachment if you had a crystal ball and knew for certain that impeachment would cause his re-election?

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #75)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:05 PM

77. If I knew the future I would do alot of things differently.

I know your point but its irrelevant since it will never happen.

Furthermore, the argument of whether it helps or hurts Trump is futile. One can argue both sides and they both are legitimate reasonable possibilities. It would make a good debate competition question as there are so many ways to argue it.

I am done with this thread. Ciao.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:40 AM

10. She was pretty clear to me,

she said if a president commits high crimes and misdemeanors it is the Constitutional duty of the House to open up an impeachment inquiry. That inquiry will certainly have political ramifications but politics would not be the defining factor into whether or not to begin the inquiry.

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Response to watoos (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:01 PM

76. Then why mention that the political ramifications are positive?

Johnson pushed for the Civil Rights Act because it was the right thing knowing that it would cost the Democrats many votes. That's taking a moral stand.

Soldiers do their duty even in the face of certain death. That's taking a moral stand.

Let's signal our virtue through impeachment, and oh, by the way, it might help us win the election, is playing politics.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #76)

Fri Jun 14, 2019, 05:20 AM

102. It's a floor wax, _and_ a dessert topping

She's saying do it because it's the right thing to do, and because it's the right thing, it's less likely to hurt you politically. That's neither hard to understand, nor bad advice.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #102)

Fri Jun 14, 2019, 09:16 AM

103. There was a recent thread that asked if people would still impeach

if they knew for certain we would lose the House. Most everyone refused to answer that question on various grounds. It's hypothetical though, meant to test your moral resolve.

Morality is easy when you think you'll get a side benefit. But what if you think you'll be punished severely in the polls? Would you still do it? Ask yourself that question. You don't have to tell me your answer.

My answer is that I would not impeach if I knew or even suspected it might cost us the House or the Presidency. you may think think I'm putting politics above morality or that I don't trust the American people. You'd be right on both counts.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #103)

Fri Jun 14, 2019, 10:25 AM

104. you may well be right

but I think that showing strength by impeaching is a much more politically palatable choice than showing weakness (and moral laxity) by not impeaching.

Your mileage may vary.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:33 AM

7. I agree

Speaker Pelosi is making an assumption that an impeachment hearing will hurt Democrats in swing districts when in fact the opposite may occur. Not holding an impeachment hearing will make Democrats look weak to many voters.

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Response to watoos (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:35 AM

8. +1z

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Response to watoos (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:41 AM

26. Plus, what's discovered and made public will educate the masses and build support.

The Maga Morans aren't ever going to vote for a Democrat anyway. Not for the Senate, not for the House, not for President and their numbers definitely will not increase due to Impeachment. Hell, Trump actually lost the popular vote and barely eked out an EC win in the last election and he sure as fuck hasn't gotten more popular since.

Impeach and then let those Red state Senators say they're just fine with the crimes that will be revealed. Ignominious immortality awaits.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:43 AM

29. Right on. They are 1/3. And if the votes are counted correctly, 1/3 doesn't trump 2/3rds.

LET'S GO!!

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:53 AM

38. I totally agree,

Trump's base is what it is, it is not going to grow any bigger. If Trump turns out his base and we turn out our base, we win, even with rigged voting machines.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:40 AM

11. Exactly.

The decision to impeach should not be based on who benefits.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:45 AM

13. It's odd, Nadler & House Judiciary are conducting an investigation into Trump's crimes...

... including "constitutional remedies" for his conduct. There's only one "constitutional remedy" available, impeachment.

Yet some folks criticize because they haven't used the "I" word ... Yet.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:10 AM

17. Who would be worse, Trump or Pence?

That's one of the problems with impeachment if the president is removed. The one who takes over could be even more of an ass.

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:25 AM

20. Again...

this post does just what RM says isn't a consideration. Trying to figure out the outcomes before even starting. Pence isn't coming to the table w clean hands.
To think pence is a bigger ass than the A#1 russian collaborator, is a non sequitor imho. And it's not part of the law when figuring out if impeachment is appropriate under these circumstances. Let the chips fall where they may.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:27 AM

21. That's exactly what I have been saying.

She is stating a fact. Whether you agree or not does not change the fact.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:34 AM

23. +1z

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:43 AM

28. Standing for something big and just is only a bad idea

if you’re not committed to fighting for it. That’s where leadership comes in and there we have been sadly lacking on this issue.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:01 AM

45. This bears repeating,

If Speaker Pelosi were to call a 9PM news conference and list the reasons for starting an impeachment hearing, she would get 100% of her caucus to agree. Speaker Pelosi can unite the Democratic party by calling for impeachment.

Democrats chose not to investigate Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitch for war crimes, for misleading the American people into an unnecessary war. What the fuck happened because we didn't want to divide the country?
In 2010 Republicans flipped 64 House seats. Remember Speaker Pelosi handing that oversized gavel to John Boehner? I remember, too bad more people don't remember that.

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Response to watoos (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:03 AM

46. I know

So much winning! No wonder we keep doubling down.

The only problem with your scenario is it would be almost a 180 for Pelosi. She hasn’t poisoned the well on impeachment but her appetite for it appears to be next to non-existent, and not just this time around as you note.

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Response to watoos (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:15 AM

54. Why do you believe the other side will learn from you? The right will never agree with you. NEVER!

100% of Dems is not enough

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:43 AM

30. disagree

for once dems are acting strategic instead of ‘righteous’. Maddow’s idealistic bs no longer applies, but good for ratings though (highest ever under trump?).

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:52 AM

37. RM's B.S.?

Interesting reply.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:56 AM

40. I was referring to the particular comment she made

not to her overall programming. But, yes, she is an entertainer, not a lawmaker.

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:43 AM

71. I have a lot of respect for Rachel Maddow

... and she was awesome on Seth Myer's show last night.

However I never forget that she is a journalist and she (as well as her network) stands to gain by the Dems going to impeachment. The media is salivating over the prospect of impeachment hearings that will of course be 100% televised 24/7 for however long. It's their bread and butter, and it's certainly Rachel's goal to see it happen.

We need to step back from this and look around a little bit. Who is pulling strings on this? Who stands to gain/lose the most? We Democrats and especially Speaker Pelosi own the catbird seat right now. Why be in such a hurry to give it up? Chump will see eventually justice, of that we can be sure.





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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:45 AM

31. I appreciate Speaker Pelosi's strategy of involving

the American public in the do/don't Impeachment debate by being patient........ it raises awareness and causes many of the uninformed to become aware of something they had little to no knowledge of.

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Response to NoMoreRepugs (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:06 AM

47. I think it is a mistake to base impeachment on polls,

First of all I don't trust polls, none of them, they can be used as propaganda tools to sway public opinion. Speaker Pelosi and her caucus work for us, we pay them to make tough decisions.

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Response to watoos (Reply #47)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 09:41 AM

97. When we see demonstrations and Congressional phone

lines overwhelmed with calls for Impeachment we will know the "polls" are in favor of ousting the Orange Menace. Until many Congresscritters feel constituent pressure I just dont see it happening, so yeah, I think poll numbers have to grow.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:47 AM

32. Infotainers all want impeachment for the drama and ratings

and Maddow is no different.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:57 AM

42. Bashing Ds isn't the best way to go here. RM is the primary driver of all the information we know to

date. It sure hasn't come from congress. For now, I'm going w bigger brains than I.
PS....There's over 60 congressmen, hundreds of federal prosecutors, tens of law professors, who would disagree w you. And they have no dog in the "media drama." She makes pretty good dough now, and has to be the number one show on every night, that's not bc of sensationalism, that's bc she does her homework, for all of us. Thank god.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:09 AM

49. Sorry but I don't worship at the alter of Maddow.

Talking heads are not above criticism. Their political commentary is not the word of god. If my gentle criticism is 'bashing Ds' so be it. I have been on DU since the Bush days and I really don't need to be lectured by you.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #49)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:12 AM

51. Interesting.

I'll rest on my comments above. Other than she, who informs us better?
I'm not aware i was lecturing anyone. But, if you see me giving you more information as a lecture. Ok. You have a good day now.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #49)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:16 AM

56. Don't make it personal then,

you made it personal. Refute Maddow's analysis. She basically only had 1 main point, that if Democrats choose to impeach, because of Trump's numerous high crimes and misdemeanors (individual 1) that Democrats shouldn't be accused of impeaching simply for political reasons. I agree with her viewpoint, you?

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Response to Chin music (Reply #42)


Response to Post removed (Reply #52)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:15 AM

55. Yeah, why listen to folks like Larry Tribe and Rachel Maddow. WE know so much more.

Eliz Warren, Maxine Waters, Mr Raskin, Mr Ciciline and 60+ others do my thinking for me. I'll defer to them on this, considering, we are just commenters on a Democratic forum.
Lawrence O Donnell, The list goes on. We can figure it out right here eh? Wow.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:20 AM

59. Who said Madow is a Dem?

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #59)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:22 AM

60. What do you suppose she is?

Enlighten us. Have you heard different? Considering her lifestyle and her show, and her guests, HRC being the one that comes to mind, you think shes a repub? or an Indep? Come on. Doesn't pass the smell test.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #60)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:23 AM

61. No idea

She could be a Dem. She could be an independent. I have no way of knowing and neither do you.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #61)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:26 AM

63. I'll go with my best hunch. She's a D.

That's my opinion. (So I don't rile you.)
Why the angst? It's one forum thread of hundreds here a day. No biggie. RM really touches a nerve with some. I wonder why?

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Response to Chin music (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:41 AM

70. Remember when you assume

You make an ass out of u and me.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #70)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:43 AM

72. You remember that too.

I said it was my opinion. I wasn't aware we researching a paper for publication here. We're just having fun. No need to be nasty about it. You go on now, will ya?

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Response to Chin music (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:45 AM

74. Her giggle?

..and how annoying when she says "bull pucky?"

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:19 AM

58. Agreed

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 10:50 AM

34. Combine this with Tribe's third option impeachment and this might be the right analysis. . . . nt

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:43 AM

73. So when will trust in pelosi's strategy be outweighed

By the likes of those many typically hold in high esteem? You may not agree with all but...here's just a few..

Lawrence Tribe
Rachel Maddow
Joyce Vance
Maxine Waters
Elizabeth Warren
Beto O'Rourke

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 02:11 PM

85. that list is VERY VERY long...

.....and, too, if Pelosi is claiming her instincts in dealing with Trump are honed by tending to six grandchildren, I wonder how she would deal with a grandchild who behaves as badly as Trump does? I believe she would STOP the grandchild and CORRECT the grandchild and put him in a space where he could no longer break rules and norms and damage other people. Not by clapping, not by ignoring and hoping it will stop. She would DO THE RIGHT THING.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #85)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 05:27 PM

89. Somehow it makes more sense for someone to analyze and dertermine policy and path

Forward who has no vested interest. If a person can lose their job, they will look at things differently than those who can see all sides. We don’t have a leader now, a big picture one. Maybe Clinton and Obama and Jimmy could step in behind the scenes.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:12 PM

78. IMHO, if Congress had been doing their jobs all along,

T would be out by now.

But they're politicians. For many of them the political outcome seems to be more important than their oath of office.

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Response to grumpyduck (Reply #78)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:34 PM

82. If **Congress** did, yes, but there's a distinct part of Congress preventing that...

The supine Republicans.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:12 PM

79. Come on Democrats!!!!

Do your job and start an Impeachment inquiry! Stop wondering if it will hurt or help your chances in 2020. I will tell you right now, if you fail to hold oversight on this con man, it will hurt your chances in 2020!

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Response to Catch2.2 (Reply #79)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 09:53 AM

100. I want to see impeachment inquiries also

I want to see this go to the Senate and blow up in McConnell's face, and the rest of Republicans then we can say loudly they choose party over country.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #100)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 01:03 PM

101. Exactly!

Impeach!!

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:15 PM

80. As expected, anyone for impeachment is then criticized by some naysayers on DU.

Tribe, now Maddow, for instance. I really don't understand why some Democrats here can't accept that any Democrat, constitutional legal scholar, etc. etc. etc. has a different point of view than themselves and Speaker Pelosi about impeachment proceedings.

It gets so old when we are repeatedly lectured, told "No", told only one person in the United States has the experience, knowledge, etc. to make this decision (Pelosi), accused of not doing our homework, and not to mention accused of being trolls!! LOL



Of course, I agree with Rachel.









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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 12:32 PM

81. her argument presupposes

that impeachment is a judicial and ethical process but not a political one.

Except it's absolutely a political process, and thus political considerations are important.

And no, in this environment you are not convincing anyone that isn't already in favor of impeachment that you are "doing it for the right reasons" by going quickly vice waiting until investigations are complete...and to be honest, you aren't convincing them even then.

So, no, if someone wants to argue that the moral/ethical considerations outweigh the political considerations, that's one thing...to argue that political considerations are beside the point and shouldn't be considered at all is at best naive, and at worst disingenuous.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #81)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 01:02 PM

83. Gee how sweet

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #81)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 01:13 PM

84. There are other reasons to hold an impeachment hearing,

Yes, an impeachment hearing is a judicial process, and because of this it carries more clout with the courts than a regular legislative hearing carries. At the very least Democrats under an impeachment hearing should be given the grand jury information.

The Trump/Barr game plan is to delay everything until after the elections, they are ignoring requests for documents, ignoring subpoenas. Adam Schiff is one smart guy, when was his last committee hearing? Under an impeachment hearing Democrats have more clout with the courts to expedite rulings on subpoenas, etc.

Holding impeachment hearings is a "practical" decision. Daily hearings will control the narrative which is critical. Without the hearings the narrative is going to be about how the crooked FBI and how Hillary paid Christopher Steele to write a fake dossier to carry on a witch hunt against Trump. You can bank on that happening if you watched the performances of Jordan and Gaetz at the last hearing. Trump plans to put Hillary on the 2020 ballot.

There won't be many hearings or witnesses or documents or subpoenas adhered to unless we start an impeachment hearing. That is beside the point anyway with me. IMO we should have started impeachment a year before the Mueller report came out. What do I know? Individual 1 - Pence 2020.

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Response to watoos (Reply #84)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 02:19 PM

86. well said

From the arrogance and bravado of Republican leadership and Team Trump, we must conclude that they have gamed out the election and are sure of themselves. This election could likely be a real SNAFU. FUBAR. A shock and awe operation with multi-faceted criminal operations changing votes.

It is supremely stupid to wait until 2020 to see how things play out for America.

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Response to watoos (Reply #84)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 06:19 PM

90. and that's fine

if folks want to make practical and political arguments for holding impeachment hearings, that's quite fine and reasonable.
My point is to not make an argument that there are no practical or political considerations at all, which is what Rachel Maddow seems to be making.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #90)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 07:11 PM

91. I think she is saying that their constitutional duty here far outweighs political considerations.

I agree wholeheartedly.

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Response to triron (Reply #91)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 07:23 PM

93. I don't

There is no constitutional duty. There's a process that they may select if they decide to.

This is just a way to try and shame them by declaring it some ethical must do.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 02:51 PM

87. Totally and absolutely correct..

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 07:13 PM

92. K&R...

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:49 PM

94. Just watched video. Thanks for posting! Rachel is certainly great!

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2019, 09:52 PM

95. K & R

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 01:48 AM

96. 100% correct.

Show the American people that the entire GOP, as well as Trump, are career criminals who believe they're above the rule of law. Expose them for the filth they are.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 09:44 AM

98. it's there in the Constitution

let's fucking use it please. Even Mueller said it the CONGRESS to get this done.

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2019, 09:45 AM

99. This pragmatist agrees! Start the inquiry NOW.

As in today!

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Response to Javaman (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2019, 10:25 AM

105. knr

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