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Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:31 PM

17 year old dutch girl, victim of rape, dies by legal euthanasia



A teenager who said she was raped by two men died by legal euthanasia in the Netherlands, it's emerged.

Noa Pothoven made a "sad last post" to social media last week in which she announced she would "die within 10 days".


The 17-year-old detailed her struggles with sexual assault, depression, and anorexia in her award-winning biography "Winning or Learning".

She wrote in her book that she was first assaulted at the age of 11 and raped by two men when she was just 14-years-old, facts she hid from her parents because she was ashamed.

In her last post on Instagram, the young girl wrote that she had stopped eating and drinking and that her suffering was "unbearable."

She wrote that her decision was "final" and that she had not been alive for a while.

"I breathe but no longer live," she wrote.

A patient in the Netherlands may receive physician-assisted suicide if they are "enduring unbearable and unendurable suffering", according to the Dutch life ending clinic the 17-year-old consulted.

Originally the clinic said she was too young, according to Dutch news outlet de Gelderlander's 2018 profile of the teenager.

But legally minors are eligible under certain circumstances.

Pothoven wrote on Instagram last week that after many "conversations and reviews" it had been decided.

In 2017, 6,585 people died of euthanasia in the Netherlands, according to the Dutch Regional Euthanasia Review Committees' most recent report. Pathologists must legally report cases to the review committees.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/04/noa-pothoven-raped-girl-17-dies-by-legal-euthanasia-in-the-netherlands

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Reply 17 year old dutch girl, victim of rape, dies by legal euthanasia (Original post)
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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:34 PM

1. That is terrible. There are new meds all the time. She could have been

much better over time. I have ptsd and feel much better now. I look at people who struggle with say war trauma and live to be old and I think "I bet they have a place inside them that is happy the struggle is over" and I think I will feel that when I die of old age. A bit of relief. But not 17. That is tragic.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:35 PM

2. OOHHHHHHHHHH!

I hardly know what to say...

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:35 PM

3. That's the saddest thing

I've read all day.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:38 PM

4. She was probably painfully alone.




If she had someone to share with it might not have ended this way.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:39 PM

5. too fucking sad and horrible

 

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:39 PM

16. What a compounded tragedy

I am so sorry for all of the losses

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:24 PM

52. Thanks for the link. Did answer my question about psychological and medical interventions. nt

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #6)


Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:44 PM

7. I do not agree with this.

Too young and not facing a terminal physical illness.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:58 PM

9. I don't either.

There are lots of different meds for depression and anxiety.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:33 AM

113. For those in the US

Yes there are many medications and therapies available. But for some, especially those without insurance, help isn't available due to cost. If you just do not have the money, sometimes there are no other options.

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Response to BigMin28 (Reply #113)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 05:50 AM

165. Right and there will never be options if the solution is to kill them...cheaper I guess...

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Response to LisaL (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:46 AM

118. Medicine doesn't work for everyone with depression or bipolar disorder, unfortunately.

Although I can see the argument that she’s too young and have mixed feelings myself, I believe definitely that adults should be allowed to end their lives for any reason.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:39 PM

15. I can see the argument that she's too young.

But why is physical pain deemed worse than mental agony and pain?

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:47 PM

22. I believe a person should be able to die with no physical pain if they are going to die.

A person who wants to commit suIcide because they are suffering a mental illness should be helped to live a better life, not helped to commit suicide.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:50 PM

23. I agree 100% that they should be helped.

Unfortunately, sometimes all the help in the world doesn’t relieve the depression. I hope this girl at least was given all treatment options before pursuing euthanasia.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:52 PM

25. A teenager should not be helped to commit suicide.

My heart is broken.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:54 PM

26. That's my issue too.

The age. It’s such a heartbreaking case.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:09 PM

126. You have little understanding of the agony that mental illness can inflict

and how unbearable it is to live with a mind that torments you.

While I don’t agree with this woman’s decision because of her age, I take offense at people who minimize the effects of mental illness.

Bipolar is a terminal illness that requires medication for the rest of someone’s life. People who suffer from treatment-resistant depression undergo courses of Electroconvulsive Therapy and hospitalizations without finding relief.

For the terminally ill who have no quality of life, why should it be your choice if they live or die?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #126)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:24 PM

133. We should not be helping people who are depressed to commit suicide.

That is my opinion no matter how little understanding you think I have.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #126)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:59 PM

136. bipolar is NOT a terminal illness

At least get your nomenclature correct if you're going to support putting 17 yos down.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #136)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:57 PM

137. I stand corrected. It's a chronic illness.

Words do matter, so thanks for pointing that out.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #126)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:02 PM

139. We do know that the prefrontal cortex

in a teen is not fully formed. This is why we prefer to NOT charge them as adults when they commit crimes.

But we will say a teen is ok to take her own life? Her brain is formed enough to come to that decision?

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:26 PM

38. Because the people who argue that point

have never had to deal with the pain and agony of emotional and mental illness.

I truly wish everyone had to live for a month with a most severe case of bipolar disorder. And it has to be bipolar disorder that is medication resistant.

Yes folks, there are diseases for which there are no solutions. No matter how many drugs you see on the commercials on TV, they don't all work for every person on the planet.

I'm an expert on this subject, and if anybody comes at me, look out.

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Response to Dem2theMax (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:31 PM

40. Exactly.

I’ve been there before. Luckily, medication managed to help just enough. But I recognize that, for many people, no amount of medication and therapy helps. They deserve to have the choice to end their lives in a pain free way if they so choose.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:34 PM

42. AMEN!

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Response to Dem2theMax (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:19 AM

104. Not all people

I've never had bipolar disorder, so I can't speak or give advice on that, but I've suffered from severe/major depression at several points in my life, including as a preteen and teen. It was completely untreated and I had many suicidal thoughts. Somehow I made it through that period, and looking back, I think it was through music and accomplishing my goals. I didn't have a single suicidal thought when my severe depression ended. I'm making a point of saying "severe" depression because, as a "realist" personality type, I think my normal operating state is slightly depressed.

My advice to anyone in my or that young woman's situation would be to realize that suicidal thoughts are 100% due to severe/major depression. When severe depression isn't in the equation, you can still be in the same situation or worse without ever considering suicide. A normally functioning brain doesn't allow that type of thinking, which is why many people who have not experienced severe depression don't understand it.

There are some supplements that are sold in the vitamin section of most supermarkets that I recommend: 5htp for depression and/or L-Theanine for anxiety. In my opinion, the best way to come out of depression naturally is to take up some sort of activity or goal and work towards excelling at it. For example, going back to school, learning to play an instrument or sport, tutoring/mentoring students, volunteering, starting a business and/or website, etc. The journey to reaching your goals can eliminate depression in its tracks.

Lastly, remember the basics of getting out into the sunlight, meditation, doing fun activities, music, hanging out with friends/family, etc. Also, there are a lot of affirmation videos popping up on Youtube that can be incorporated into your daily routine.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion based on my history of severe depression. Anyone suffering from depression along with other mental conditions should seek professional counseling and/or treatment.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:21 PM

51. At seventeen, her brain is not fully developed. And she has not had a chance to emotionally

mature through social interactions, education, positive life experiences she might yet have had. I wonder too if every medical and psychological treatment was exhausted.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:12 AM

93. We don't usually kill people because they have physical pain.

We give them painkillers.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #93)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:30 AM

94. I'm for

personal choice regarding suicide. It’s a fundamental right as far as I’m concerned.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:11 PM

150. Her parents did not interfere with her decision to die.

 

That's a special kind of compassion and courage.

I don't know if they were prevented by law or not but hopefully we will have this kind of progress soon in this country where no one can interfere with a person's decision to end their life, no matter how young.

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Response to SeaDoo (Reply #150)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:20 PM

153. What!!! Ah no. Depressed people who want to commit suicide should not be helped along by anyone.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:53 PM

8. Ah, damn.

Just no words.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 07:59 PM

10. This is so heartbreaking.

Were her rapists ever caught and punished for what they did to her? She was so young. I had suffered from severe depression when I was younger, but it has improved with treatment, medication and age. This just makes me so angry. These men basically destroyed her life as if they had murdered her themselves.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:03 PM

11. That's unconscionable for any medical judgement.

A minor presents with emotional, physical and mental trauma. She has no support system and resorts to self harm. What do you do?

The obvious answer is NOT kill her like a wounded animal to put her out of her misery! Look, I'm all for assisted suicide, I may want that option in the future if my health declines.

But this was a suffering, mentally unstable child who lacked the life experiences and the mature judgement to make such a final decision. Was she even treated by medical and mental health professionals? We're different treatment plans used to facilitate her recovery?

The medical personnel who signed off on her death warrant should lose their licences and be tried for their part in taking her life.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:17 PM

12. She had basically been killing herself for over a year.

If she had a gun (like so many in the US do) she probably would have done it that way. I wonder why she didn't hang herself or jump from a building instead of starving herself to the point of organ failure and a forced coma-state and feeding tubes. The doctors obviously could see she was suffering seriously and even electric shock didn't benefit her. I feel sad for her parents and friends but I am glad she is no longer in so much unbearable pain. That is no way to exist, it is not "living". I am glad she finally is free of non-stop agony. No one should be forced to suffer.

Why is mental pain so hard for people to understand but physical pain is accepted? If someone is suffering in pain from a physical ailment most people are relieved when that person dies since he/she is no longer suffering. People think it is humane to euthanize dogs who are in pain and suffering without hope of a cure but people are different for some reason....that is twisted thinking. What hypocrisy. We have more empathy for suffering pets than we do for people. Why is it OK for a person to suffer in endless pain? Is there some religious influence going on?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:13 PM

19. Because with the proper treatment she had a good chance of recovery. Most cases when people

Last edited Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

are relieved someone is not suffering anymore from a physical ailment, there was no hope of recovery. Many don't believe that was the case here.

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:19 PM

20. Many experienced doctors obviously did not agree

in her case. They are professionals and I assume they did not come to this conclusion as a whim but after much time and consideration.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:54 PM

27. It makes me sick to my stomach a teenager suffering depression was helped to end her life.

How the hell is this even possible. I’ve met a lot of experts who are fucking stupid.

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:05 AM

58. What do you think was improper about the treatment she'd received? nt.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #58)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:14 AM

59. She was very young. Her brain wasn't fully developed yet. There are several people on this thread

alone who have felt the desperation and wanted to die, but eventually they received the appropriate treatment and now live fulfilling lives and are happy they didn't commit suicide. I just wish this had happened to her.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:12 AM

67. So you are advocating for people to kill themselves if they are in bad (NOT TERMINAL) mental pain or

anguish?? So you are pro suicide. Who knew there was such a thing!

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #67)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:52 AM

84. Mental pain and suffering can be as bad, if not worse, than

physical pain. This is one of the main problems with people. Since you can't actually see it it must not be valid. This is also a problem with the medical profession and insurance companies. This patient was not making an impulsive decision because she broke up with her boyfriend. This was very long term suffering and she tried to get better. Her doctors apparently understood this.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #84)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:12 AM

92. Nobody is saying that mental pain can't be severe or dibilatating. But if it is not TERMINAL...that

is the key word there...TERMINAL than NO I don't believe we should have sanctioned suicides.

You do realize that everybody who attempts suicide is in great mental anguish and I really can't believe that you agree that KILLING YOURSELF is the solution.

The next celebrity that kills themselves BE SURE you are there saying well it's their choice and the pain must of been so bad that this was the only option for them.

UNREAL.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #92)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:25 PM

134. so suffering must be endured at all costs

So excruciation pain and suffering must be endured .. forever? Just so long as it's not "terminal." I see nothing moral or humane in such a rigid point of view.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #92)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 04:13 PM

142. Most suicides are impulsive, hers was certainly anything but that.

I feel that pain is pain, whether or not ir is physical or mental. People and animals should not have to suffer for long periods of time and often it is permanent pain. It is each person's choice and I am into personal freedom. It is no one else's business.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:32 PM

13. This is outrageous

I fully support euthanasia for people who are terminally ill with no possibility for recovery, people who are suffering in pain and have no quality of life. This poor girl experienced tremendous trauma but she was only 17 years old. Her brain was still developing and she relied upon the adults around her to assist her and making rational and informed opinions. I question the ethics of the so-called physician who assisted in the suicide and I questioned the adults around her who allowed this travesty to take place.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:51 PM

55. Agreed!!!

And her parents should have fought this in Court. Horrible....

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #55)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:13 PM

128. In BC, doctor's aren't allowed to tell parents anything if kid is "capable" and says not to

There was a case recently of a 16 year old who died from a street-drug overdose once his opioid prescription ran out. His parents had tried to get access to his medical records and were told the son was old enough to make his own medical decisions.

I'm wondering if it's a similar situation in the Netherlands.

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #128)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:07 PM

140. In our town we had a 14 year old die last year because BC won't let parents commit

children to rehab. It has to be their own choice. Again, according to BC law 14 year old on opioids is apparently 100% capable of making their own choices and accepting the consequences but a criminal isn't? Really?

And that's why a family friend relocated to AB recently. To be able to force his son into detox and rehab because AB has no silly law like that.

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #128)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:13 PM

157. Not similar. Parents knew since she died at home because she refused

to eat or drink.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #157)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:33 PM

162. At the time of my response, it was still being report she had died by assisted suicide.

And this sub-thread was about how teens need adults to help make informed decisions. Unfortunately, in BC, that option is taken away from the adults who have the most at stake with at risk teens, their parents.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:26 AM

73. And so are some of these replies. nt

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:35 AM

90. Yeah it's really quite disturbing

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:36 PM

14. So, so, sad.

I’m glad she’s out of agony and pain but I have mixed feelings.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:44 PM

17. It's a good thing Netherlands stays out of wars


Ex-soldiers might use this way out.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:59 PM

18. The Dutch were in Afghanistan until 2010.

They also had significant involvement in Iraq, as well as contributing to peacekeeping forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Kosovo.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #18)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:11 PM

35. +1

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Response to Beringia (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:09 AM

99. They also have a good social safety net

I wonder that she did not feel that support. Her parents were there, too. At that age, I feel she could have recovered. Especially with the treatment not having to be paid for directly. It shocks me that the doctors would agree.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:19 PM

21. I completely support her choice.

It was her life, it was her suffering, and she played by the rules to the end.

This isn't just an academic exercise for me. My wife received a medically assisted death here in Canada a year and a half ago. Her case was straightforward in comparison - she was 65 years old and had stage 4 ovarian cancer. But because she didn't trust the medical bureaucracy to do the right thing, before she received the death she desired, she tried to commit suicide. She had my full approval, support and presence, and I helped with the research and planning. She chose ligature self-strangulation as the technique since we couldn't obtain reliable helium. The attempt did not work, and those few minutes before she indicated that I should cut her free were the most harrowing of my life. In comparison her medical death was as serene and graceful as it's possible for a death to be.

One of my few absolute beliefs is that life belongs to the person who is living it. So long as they are clear about what they are asking for, are not being pressured by others to make that choice, and are legally an adult, I believe they have an inalienable right to choose death.

I applaud the Dutch decision-makers involved in this case. It sounds like they were compassionate, caring adults.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:30 PM

39. Your wife was so blessed to have such a compassionate man in her life.

We should all be so lucky to have someone next to us who is that understanding, and kind and caring, not to mention loving.

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Response to Dem2theMax (Reply #39)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:06 PM

48. The price of such compassion can be excruciatingly high

I still struggle with visual flashbacks of those minutes, and the grief never ends.

But
But
But...

If she asked me to go through it again, I would consent in a nanosecond.
In love, some things are far more important than one's own pain.

If you love someone, you try with all your might to give them what they need.
Not what you think they should need.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #48)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:59 PM

56. I feel for you more than you can possibly know.

It was a different relationship, in different circumstances, but my mother had to make a choice. One choice was multiple surgeries, the other was hospice, with death soon to follow.

My father and I told her doctors to send in every second opinion they could find, but that we were going to stay away from the hospital that day, as it was her choice. No matter what she chose, whether we internally agreed or not, we would support her decision all the way. I also told the doctor to have hospice visit her, because I didn't know if she would go for more surgeries.

She chose hospice, and I was actually surprised. And I had to keep my mouth shut, and struggle with her decision. Mentally, she was 100% there. She just happened to have a circulatory issue, something that ran in her family, and it finally caught up with her. She had to die because of that?

My brain could not accept the fact that she had to choose to die. The only way I could allow myself to accept it, was to think of people who had cancer, and after fighting it for years, they finally went the hospice route. That was the only way it made sense to me.

I have some images of horror in my own mind, things I won't go into detail about, but I get those flashbacks and it is as though it's happening all over again. And like you, I grieve, and I cry, and I wonder if I could have done something different to somehow bring about a better outcome.

But when I am sitting here thinking clearly, I know I did everything I could, and that the most important thing I did was support her with all the love I had in me. I made her impossible decision a little easier to deal with, and she did go peacefully in the end.

Daily, I search for peace. And daily, I will hope you find it as well.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:42 PM

46. Thank you for sharing your difficult story with grace and an open heart.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:05 AM

64. But would you feel the same if it were your 17yr old daughter ? Your wife was terminal

(sorry by the way)...this young girl was not. I agree with human euthanasia....but not for this.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #64)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:16 AM

70. Yes I would.

IMO a 17 year old has as many inherent human rights as an 18 or 21 year old. Would i feel "the same"? Of course not. Would i respect her well-considered decision? Absolutely.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:09 AM

87. I do not...and find it horrifying ...one of the reasons I am completely against this...she was a

child.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:09 PM

127. A 17-year-old Committing Suicide

and society assisting in the death of a troubled 17-year-old are two completely different things. I find this horrendous and wrong on many levels.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:50 PM

24. targic

But this is a failure or medical professionals to treat her successfully

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Response to weissmam (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:00 PM

32. I wish people could understand that treatment is not a catch all cure all.

It doesn’t work for everyone.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:35 PM

43. It has never worked for me, but I still think it was wrong.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:08 AM

98. It never worked for me either. Your reply is understandable and thoughtful.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:11 AM

88. So we should allow 17 year olds to kill themselves? Horrifying.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #88)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:59 AM

97. Oversimplification is not a reasonable remark to a complex issue.

See #96

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #97)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 05:47 AM

164. I dont find this issue complex. I am against this period.horrifying.

A child can't even vote but they can decide to end it all? It is terrible and disgusting.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #164)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 03:52 PM

174. It's a terrible thing when someone feels it's their only option.

The question is that of choice. This wasn't a lone decision, there were professionals and family involved who know details you cannot know, yet you would not allow the choice anyway as an arbitrary uninvolved concerned citizen. Do you think that human rights should be decided by the state? By an arbitrary age? Is 17 years 11months 29 days too early to have full human rights? Should all people below the age of 18 be forced to endure unbearable pain and wouldn't that be a form of child abuse? Why does the clock matter?
It's about human rights and choice, not whether you or I agree with another person's decision or not.

To make absolute laws governing personal life decisions is cowardly. It relieves us from the resposibility to do whatever we can to elevate pain and suffering so personal decisions can be made in favor of life while preserving freedom.

I don't think you or I or society should have the right to decide what another person does with their life or their body... we are not them.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:57 PM

28. I believe in choice whatever the circumstances.


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Response to defacto7 (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:14 AM

68. So if your teen aged daughter or niece chose to kill themselves you would support that then. nt

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #68)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:56 AM

96. If I had fulfilled my responsibilities as a parent, yes, and her human rights would remain intact.

Your question is leading within the framework of the subject matter. Context means something; your question is meant to manipulate through simplification.
It's a complex issue. An individual's right to choose anything concerning their life is far more reasonable, humane and noble than a society's mandate that forces it's collective will which most assuredly is tainted by prejudice and ideology. My resposibility as a parent is a huge commitment I must not take for granted. That commitment must supercede vague and prejudicial mass opinion while respecting and nurturing my child's human rights. I'd better get it right. I can't pass it off on society.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:58 PM

29. I'm so sorry she had to go through this, and hope the men responsible paid. But, Euthanasia is

a human right in my opinion.

I wish she could have been helped, but the pain sure sounds like it was unbearable. In any event, hope the Review Committee takes a look to see if anything could have been done.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:15 AM

69. This happened just a few years ago. 3 YEARS AGO and yes suicide is the answer. UNREAL. nt

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:58 PM

30. I think those of you who are criticizing her choice may

not realize how long she's been suffering.

She was sexually abused starting at age 11.

Oh, and this is just another version of choice, once again her body her decision. It's beyond simplistic to say all she needed was some better help. She'd endured pain for years. Yes, she's shockingly young but she didn't exactly make a spur of the moment decision here.

So, to all of you who've never been sexually abused as a child, raped at age 14, spent the rest of your life suffering from PTSD, please don't judge.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:07 PM

34. +1

My body, my choice.
My life, my choice.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #34)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:16 PM

129. Right

And if you choose to commit suicide, you will not be judged by me. However, if society HELPS you and you are not terminal, I will have something to say about that society. Especially if you are 17 and suffering from a treatable illness.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:16 PM

36. It's easy to be judgemental

I am reminded of the pain and anguish that Kalief Browder endured during his young life when he took his life. I have dealt with sexual abuse but not nearly as bad as this situation. She can at least not be in pain anymore.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:14 AM

100. There are people who have survived more

It just seems to me that at that age, things were bound to improve. Heck it would be better to be addicted to heroin for a while. That pain would recede.

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Response to treestar (Reply #100)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:28 AM

109. Right. Just like telling a woman,

"It's only nine months. You'll get over it."

Yes, there are always people who have survived more, just as there are always women who really do choose to continue a pregnancy someone else wouldn't continue. Each person is entitled to her own choice.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #109)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:32 AM

111. But then treating pain is part of recovery

It is easier to recover when you are in less pain; as has been shown. At that age, very extreme steps could be taken, like morphine or the like, especially by such a liberal society (aren't drugs even legal in the Netherlands?). If we give someone a break for 9 months, why not for a lifetime? This was not 9 months of inconvenience - it was a whole adult life on the line.

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Response to treestar (Reply #111)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:48 PM

155. Have you been in her shoes? Were you sexually abused at age 11,

raped at age 14?

And even if you were, your experience is going to be different from hers. So please do not judge. Don't say she should have chosen life, because honestly, you are very close to the "pro life" people who have no respect for a woman's autonomy. You need to respect this young woman's autonomy.

It's not as though she tried for a few months. She tried for a significant percentage of her lifetime.

I happen to have very strong and personal beliefs about an afterlife, and because of those beliefs sincerely hope she's in a better place. I am not about to try to convince anyone else they should believe this way, just that my beliefs really do help me out here.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #155)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:36 PM

161. I have not , no

but still had depression as a teen and young woman, at a time when it was considered a character flaw and not treated. I was just told to "join the human race" and stop acting like that. When I reached early middle age, society had realized it was a disease and I got some proper treatment.

It really has nothing to do with what you actually experience in life. I didn't have one "excuse" at all for having that disease.

Very heroic measures should have been taken rather than approve of suicide for a 17 year old.

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Response to treestar (Reply #161)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 08:30 AM

171. Exactly.

One doesn't need to be abused in order to have depression.
It can be due to many reasons. There are also lots of treatment options.
Hard to believe that at 17 all of them were already tried for this girl.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 09:59 PM

31. Heartbreaking

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:06 PM

33. the teen underwent electroshock therapy.

By the sound of it she tried everything before coming to her decision.

Excerpts from the Post article above:

Last year, she was admitted to the Rijnstate hospital in Arnhem seriously underweight and with near organ failure. She was put in a coma and fed via tubes.

Pothoven said she tried hospitalization and visits with specialists to no avail before eventually contacting the Life End Clinic in The Hague

Her dad, Frans, said the teen underwent electroshock therapy. He hoped she’d “see bright spots [in life] again, ‘perhaps fall in love’ or learn to discover that ‘life is worth living.”

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Response to IcyPeas (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:32 PM

41. That explains a lot

I've known other people who've lost so many memories after ECT that they decided to end their lives. It may save lives but it also takes them away.

Not to take anything away from what she went through before that. Sad and tragic story.

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Response to Cetacea (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:41 PM

45. That's what happened to Earnest Hemingway.

I've researched it quite a bit, and don't think it's all that it's cracked up to be.

I've got lifelong treatment resistant depression, and I would never try it myself.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #45)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:30 PM

53. One of the side effects can be depression, ironically. For Hemingway, memory loss was very

difficult. I believe he tried to kill himself by walking into propellers after a series of treatments.

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Response to IcyPeas (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:03 AM

57. Some people seem to think she just walked in

out of the blue and asked for euthanasia, and they said, "Sure, right this way."

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Response to Mariana (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:31 AM

76. Well the rape happened at 14 and she was 17 ...so yeah 3 years I guess is enough time for any

treatment to work so yeah just throw in the towel.

When someone commits suicide, for instance Anthony Bourdain...I don't see not one post of support of it's his choice and good for him. I really don't understand this.

The suicide prevention hotline should say we want to help you but if you are in too much pain just go kill yourself because it's your choice and your body.

If only all the family members could just see it this way they could get over their loved one killing themselves in a jiffy.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #76)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:48 AM

83. It seems like kind of a discriminatory attitude towards people with depression.

This is just my opinion, but I think that 17 is way too soon to just give up on somebody and throw them on the garbage heap. Oh, but she's got depression. Might as well just get rid of her.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #83)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:16 AM

101. Yes. If it had been cancer it would be have tragic

but this is beyond that. Giving up like that at that age. It's horrifying.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:21 PM

37. It's hard to know what to say.

Heartbreaking.

I hope she’s finally found peace.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:38 PM

44. Horrible!

I don't know what to say about this. 😢

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:05 PM

47. 'Ik hou van je vogeltje. Je bent nu vrij.'

"De wereld draait zich nog steeds om, maar trevert om je alte korte leven. Het spijt me dat je weg bent."
Our body, our choices. Understand the lesson, if you can. Her family is devastated, and will be forever, but, she is free and paid the price for it.
I'm grateful she had compassionate care, regardless of what posters think they know about her recovery chances. She may have been horribly diseased by the attack. Or traumatized so bad, she would never recover. Seems the attack blocked her hopes for happy living. Life, isn't an endless 'do-over' for everyone.
So sorry for the evil men do. You can't unring the bell. Thankful for peaceful choices. Wish i could have held her hand.
This choice should be available to Americans in all 50 states. imo. Tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, and sometimes living your life, is a mistake. She obviously felt that way. At least the Dutch realize human pain, and dignity in dealing w it.
If it bothers you, find the neighbor around you who feels like dying too, and work the magic you feel you can. There's a huge vacuum of hope in this country, regardless of the unconvincing cherry-picking the media does everyday to keep us working, consuming, and overcoming so much nonsense.
Misery accrues.

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Response to Chin music (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:11 PM

49. Vrijheid is het kostbaarste geschenk

Thank you for having such a heart.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #49)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:13 PM

50. +1z

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2019, 11:44 PM

54. My heart breaks for this girl.

But I am outraged at those who sentence her to this horror of a life. I want to know that they were charged and punished for their crime. As far as I am concerned, they are murderers.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:19 AM

60. Not okay with this.

She was 17!

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:23 AM

61. While I am saddend at this young womans life ending decision, it was her decision.

I find it interesting that so many here are shocked that a 17 year old girl was allowed to make this decision at her age. We cannot know the pain she felt and therefor cannot really understand her decision, we just have to accept that this decision was right for her. Some of you here are upset that this decision was allowed to be carried out by a 17 year old girl. But many of you have no concern that she be allowed to get an abortion without permission if she desired. We need to understand what the right of "choice" really entails, including decisions we find incomprehensible. I am pro choice, but more to the point, I am pro individual freedom. We own our bodies, control what happens to them, and should control how we leave this world if we have the choice...even at the tender age of seventeen.

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Response to trc (Reply #61)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:44 AM

63. Amen! nt

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Response to trc (Reply #61)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:07 AM

65. She committed suicide at 17 and you think that is a good solution...yeah OK. nt

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #65)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:16 AM

71. I did not say it was a good solution. I said it was her choice.

Individual freedom of choice can be an ugly thing we don't always understand. This was her choice, not ours. We have to trust that she knew what was best for her.

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Response to trc (Reply #71)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:17 AM

72. Oh yes because 17 year old children know what is best. OMG. nt

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #72)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:30 AM

74. At what age could she have made this decision in accordance with your standards?

Who did know "what is best" for this young woman? Her dad, her mom, the state, her doctors (any of that sound familiar)? You think she was too young, I do too, but it was not your decision, it was not my decision, it was hers.

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Response to trc (Reply #74)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:32 AM

77. So you are pro choice suicide....got it. nt

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #77)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:47 AM

78. I am indeed for individual freedom of choice.

You say I am pro suicide, anti-abortionists say I am pro murder. We are individuals with choices to be made. Your morality, my morality play no role in what others do, willingly, with their bodies. We disagree on this obviously but I appreciate that you have not been dismissive...oh wait, you were, in all three of your posts, but hey, that was your choice. Have a good night.

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Response to trc (Reply #78)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:15 AM

81. Well since you say I'm dismissive then I'll go along with it and do just that.

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Response to trc (Reply #78)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:21 AM

106. Teenagers do make that choice and follow through

but here, society has sanctioned it. I would think at the very least, at that age, that terminal cancer must be required.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #72)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:18 AM

102. Well, it's beyond a shadow of a doubt

that you do not know what was best for her.

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Response to trc (Reply #71)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:19 AM

105. Teenagers make a lot of bad choices

they are still to be guided.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #65)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:18 AM

103. exactly, going on about her choice at that age

when her body is not terminal, from cancer or similar disease, it appalling. At that age, you can bounce back from a lot.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:44 AM

62. This is profoundly sad

For both her and her parents. It must be a struggle for them to make it day to day now, a struggle their daughter seemed to endure. No therapies could help her? None??

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:09 AM

66. She said she wrote her book to help other people. This is the final lesson? This should not be

allowed...I'm sorry. Human euthanasia yes for terminal illness but not for suicides.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:30 AM

75. Each of us is terminal.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #75)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:22 AM

107. careful you are channeling Barr

"everybody dies"

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Response to treestar (Reply #107)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:24 AM

108. Ha! It's true though. We all have different ideas on how to spend that time, of course.

It's just that when I see comments that say "I think assisted suicide is okay only in terminal cases," it's important to remember that we're all terminal. I find the reminder freeing, myself.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:55 AM

79. Very sad situation but

I don’t think doctors or whoever helped her should have done this. Over time she could have eventually learned to deal with the trauma and the depression may have improved, maybe there were or would have been new meds that could have helped her. Maybe more talk therapy. It is well known that people at a young age do not make the best decisions. I feel terrible for her family who now has to live with this.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:02 AM

80. Prime non nocere

First do no harm.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:28 AM

82. I'll probably get all kinds of crap for this, but ...

IMHO, 17 years old is too young to make a final decision like this.

As sad as it is to say, 10's of 1000's of young people are sexually assaulted yearly ... and a great many of them end up very depressed as teenagers, attempt suicide, become bulimic, anorexic, or drug-addled ... heck all that even happens without the child being assaulted, sexually or otherwise. Teens are rough times for a lot of kids.

But a great many of them don't die. And over the years, time heals the wounds, they get help, and they end up putting the trauma behind them, and finding fulfilling lives.

I personally KNOW at least 4 people who meet these exact criteria. They're all in their 30-50's now, and all doing quite well.

So, I just have to say ... I fundamentally disagree with this approach, man.

A terminal/incurable physically illness, or even in some cases a diagnosed and incurable mental illness like schizophrenia ... okay. If you're an ADULT ... and in your right mind ... euthanasia should be an option.

I disagree with giving this option to a 17 year old.

Sorry.

On edit: I'd wager this young woman was probably a pretty unhappy 17 year old ... https://www.democraticunderground.com/107843313

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 05:35 AM

85. "Sexually assaulted at...age 11...again a year later...before being raped by two men...at age 14."

Could this 17-year-old have lived a peaceful existence, with all the damage done to her by boys and men? Could she, with proper therapy by a skilled medical professional, have developed the coping skills to carry on in the face of a continuous tsunami of fear, anxiety, unceasing black despair, PTSD, anorexia, and organ failure? Can anyone dissuade a person who’s desire to end their life is utterly unshakable?

Who can say? There are valid arguments to be made either way here, both of which turn on her young age:

For life: Yes, she’s endured some horrific, violent acts. Her wish to die is understandable, but that choice is 100% permanent, and there’s a “just-maybe” possibility that an excellent therapist could help lead her to some kind of understanding, where the pain she bears could be tolerated. But it will be a long and hard road, and the patient would have to eventually be open to cooperating.

For letting go: This girl’s psyche has been crushed by multiple hostile attacks. The prognosis of her leading a balanced, rewarding existence is grim. She continues to experience an unspeakable amount of pain; pain of such magnitude that no medication or drastic treatments can touch it. Being only 17, the girl is trapped with too much time before her, time that will be filled with unceasing darkness, and an endless re-living of the horrors that broke her so completely that she cannot see a future that isn’t a continuous loop of agony.

Who can judge which is the most reasonable path, the more compassionate path, the most loving path here? I myself cannot. I’m at a complete loss.

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Response to VOX (Reply #85)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:26 PM

135. You've presented both sides well, thanks for this lucid analysis

And you're right, they turn on her young age.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #135)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 06:57 PM

149. It's a tough one. Both perspectives have validity.

It’d make an excellent college-level debate question, assuming it isn’t a taboo subject to discuss in today’s higher education.

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Response to VOX (Reply #85)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 07:31 PM

175. And to me, the essential point is that

IT IS HER CHOICE!! Anyone here who piously asserts she was too young, there were more steps to be taken, are being as willfully ignorant as all those who say a woman should have a baby, regardless of the circumstances at conception, or the circumstances of the mother's life, or the circumstances of the health of the fetus/baby in question.

In short, all of you who think she should have made a different choice, need to think long and hard. And if you're okay with saying she should not have been given the choice of death, remind me again how you come down on a woman's autonomy over her pregnant body.

In short, you haven't a clue. None of us have if we've not been in that situation.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:08 AM

86. Hey y'all, she did not die from euthanasia.

tl;dr: She made the decision to refuse food and water, and her parents respected her decision and provided palliative care.




A 17-year-old rape victim was NOT euthanised in the Netherlands. @euronews @Independent @DailyMailUK @dailybeast are all wrong It took me about 10 mins to check with the reporter who wrote the original Dutch story. Noa Pothoven asked for euthanasia and was refused (cont.)

I spoke to Paul Bolwerk, a reporter who has been covering the story for @DeGelderlander since 2018. Noa Pothoven had been severely ill with anorexia and other conditions for some time. Without telling her parents, she sought and was refused euthanasia.

The family had tried many kinds of psychiatric treatment and Noa Pothoven was repeatedly hospitalised; she made a series of attempts to kill herself in recent months. In desperation the family sought electro shocktherapy, which was refused due to her young age.

After electroshock therapy was refused, Pothoven insisted she wanted no further treatment and a hospital bed was set up at home in the care of her parents. At the start of June she began refusing all fluids and food, and her parents and doctors agreed not to force feed her.


A decision to move to palliative care and not to force feed at the request of the patient is not euthanasia.
Dutch media did not report Noa Pothoven's death as a case of euthanasia. This idea only appeared in English language pickups of Dutch reporting.


How has this happened? @newscomauHQ and @laubchad have questions to answer, as authors of early English-language articles that made a leap to conclude euthanasia from the report that Pothoven once asked for it, and an Instagram post in which she wrote that she was going to die.

I had immediate questions reading the Dutch articles about whether this was a case of euthanasia or not. It would have been an enormous deal in the Netherlands if a 17-year-old really had euthanasia. It's really easy to check. Like I say, took me about 10 minutes. Infuriating.

If you ever worry about whether you can trust a story or not, a good way to check is to look up whether @Reuters is reporting it or not. I trained to be a journalist with @Reuters, this is what they do.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:41 AM

115. It's almost like people just reacted to headline without actually reading the story.

Can't imagine that happening here >_>

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:43 AM

116. Did you read the story? Because the information I posted wasn't in the story.

The story itself was inaccurate.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #116)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:52 AM

122. They must have changed it the story, then.

Because yes, I did read it.

Just curious: are you disputing there is a tendency among internet-dwellers to react without verifying?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #122)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:53 AM

123. I see they changed the link, but the OP hasn't changed. Got it!

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 06:26 PM

148. Yup, the RW lies being told about this girl and her death is appalling

Not referring to the OP poster.

Like you, it took me literally a minute or two to read the actual facts.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:15 AM

89. this story is not accurate.


Naomi O'Leary
@NaomiOhReally
A 17-year-old rape victim was NOT euthanised in the Netherlands.
@euronews

@Independent

@DailyMailUK

@dailybeast
are all wrong
It took me about 10 mins to check with the reporter who wrote the original Dutch story.
Noa Pothoven asked for euthanasia and was refused (cont.)


Naomi O'Leary
@NaomiOhReally
·
1h
A decision to move to palliative care and not to force feed at the request of the patient is not euthanasia.
Dutch media did not report Noa Pothoven's death as a case of euthanasia. This idea only appeared in English language pickups of Dutch reporting.

still very sad indeed.

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Response to Kurt V. (Reply #89)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:30 AM

110. It's not entirely wrong either

Seems they let her starve herself to death.

There are legitimate different opinions on whether Euthanasia would be appropriate here, but frankly death by starvation seems worse to me.

The inaccurate story seems to kinder than the true story imo.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #110)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:45 AM

117. You're saying they should have force-fed her? (nt)

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #117)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:51 AM

119. I'm not in position to prescribe treatment

I'm not even saying Euthnasia would have been the wrong choice here. (though I tend to lean against it)

But I don't think that letting someone die of malnutrition is appropriate medical practice.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #119)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:55 AM

124. You don't think palliative care while she died was "appropriate medical practice"

and you lean against euthanasia (as they did), so they should have forced her to live, by logic. That's the inevitable conclusion.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #124)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:59 AM

125. There are ways to treat malnutrician

My father was dying of it about 2 years ago for various reasons that I'm not going to get into.

He was prescribed marinol and he began eating again and is still with us.

In this case. I don't know much. I just know an under age girl starved to death after being raped. That's pretty damn horrible.

Would it have been less horrible to give her mental health treatment and some form of nourishment? I think so.

But feel free to conclude what you want. I live 5,000 (or more) miles from her, had zero impact on her care of lack of, and I'm entitled to my opinion

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #125)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:19 PM

131. "The family had tried many kinds of psychiatric treatment ..." (see reply #120)

"The family had tried many kinds of psychiatric treatment and Noa Pothoven was repeatedly hospitalised; she made a series of attempts to kill herself in recent months. In desperation the family sought electro shocktherapy, which was refused due to her young age.

After electroshock therapy was refused, Pothoven insisted she wanted no further treatment and a hospital bed was set up at home in the care of her parents. At the start of June she began refusing all fluids and food, and her parents and doctors agreed not to force feed her. "

I'd guess your father's case wasn't similar enough to be relevant.

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Response to Kurt V. (Reply #89)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:33 AM

112. Not a huge difference

The state is not complicit. But is it legal for the parents to do this? It may not have been euthanasia under the law of the Netherlands, but euthanasia nonetheless.

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Response to treestar (Reply #112)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:52 AM

121. Euthanasia by malnutrician

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Response to treestar (Reply #112)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 05:00 PM

143. It's sad no matter what. the point is this story spead very fast bc reputable news made a mistake

using language that draws a certain reaction. as evident here.

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Response to Kurt V. (Reply #143)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 06:13 PM

146. If it were true, from the earliest threads, there

are a lot of DUers OK with it.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:26 AM

91. New title: Noa Pothoven dies after struggles with sexual assault, depression, and anorexia n/t

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:33 AM

95. Headline is false and ought to be edited.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:40 AM

114. Her body, her choice

I've always supported legal assisted suicide, an individual should have the right to make that decision. Why force someone to endure a lifetime of mental trauma if they don't want to? I don't feel it is anyone else's place to decide that except for that individual.

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Response to madville (Reply #114)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:18 PM

130. people that are mentally ill do not make good chioces

Society failed her.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:51 AM

120. Twitter thread on the misreporting of this, from a Politico EU reporter:




Highlights:

"It took me about 10 mins to check with the reporter who wrote the original Dutch story.
Noa Pothoven asked for euthanasia and was refused

I spoke to Paul Bolwerk, a reporter who has been covering the story for @DeGelderlander since 2018. Noa Pothoven had been severely ill with anorexia and other conditions for some time. Without telling her parents, she sought and was refused euthanasia

The family had tried many kinds of psychiatric treatment and Noa Pothoven was repeatedly hospitalised; she made a series of attempts to kill herself in recent months. In desperation the family sought electro shocktherapy, which was refused due to her young age.

After electroshock therapy was refused, Pothoven insisted she wanted no further treatment and a hospital bed was set up at home in the care of her parents. At the start of June she began refusing all fluids and food, and her parents and doctors agreed not to force feed her.

Dutch media did not report Noa Pothoven's death as a case of euthanasia. This idea only appeared in English language pickups of Dutch reporting.

How has this happened? @newscomauHQ and @laubchad have questions to answer, as authors of early English-language articles that made a leap to conclude euthanasia from the report that Pothoven once asked for it, and an Instagram post in which she wrote that she was going to die"

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #120)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 12:20 PM

132. Well, I decry the inaccurate reporting here, for sure. I hate that crap ... BUT

For better or worse, I do not believe this would happen under the system of laws we have in the USA.

I think US doctors, if they were aware that parents were simply going to let their child die of malnutrition at home, would be legally obligated to report this to authorities, and would do so ... and once that happened, a court would quickly decide this course was unacceptable.

In the USA (at least I think) the child would've been removed from the parents custody and, yes, arguably sadly, force-fed by feeding tube.

Therefore, I still consider this case of state-LAW sponsored euthanasia, even if she was not, in the strictest sense, euthanized via something to the effect of lethal injection, by any state-sanctioned medical provider.

Her parents euthanized her, but the state allowed it. So it's not really all THAT different than the reporting. And it's arguably worse because death by starvation involves more suffering than just OD'ing someone on a drug cocktail.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:01 PM

138. Charge the child molestor who abused and raped her with murder.

He's probably out on the street enjoying life after destroying hers. Put him away.

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Response to EllieBC (Reply #138)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:12 PM

156. She never reported it to the police from what has been reported.

So whom are you going to charge? Especially considering she is now dead.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:10 PM

141. Thread should be taken down or substantially revised.

She was NOT Legally Euthanized. She requested it, the Dutch State said no.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 05:10 PM

144. This is a tough call for me.

I don't think they should have allowed that to happen.

On the one hand, I'm good with adults all having autonomy over our own bodies, and lives.

But I also think there are good reasons that we don't (or at least, shouldn't) allow minors to be held to the same standards of accountability as adults. I don't think minors should be treated exactly the same as adults when it comes to crime & punishment, and I don't think she should have been given the legal go-ahead to kill herself at seventeen.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 05:57 PM

145. This is really sad and terrible.

What is almost equally unbearable is that many people with severe depression do NOT get better. Meds don't work for whatever reason. There are different treatment options, including electroshock therapy (EST) that has its own bad reputation but gives relief IMMEDIATELY. But it isn't easy to find a facility that offers EST or a psychiatrist willing to order it. Likewise, the anesthesia drug, ketamine-- used to induce aneshesia--has proven remarkably effective with treatment-resistant depression.

I cannot imagine they exhausted every treatment option for this poor young woman. As a nurse, I'm really, really a bit shocked they agreed to this. While we sometimes have patients on "comfort care" who are dying (as they well SHOULD), I have never heard of something so disturbing as this particular case (IF it is 100% true).

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 06:24 PM

147. She did NOT die from legal suicide -- clickbait, lying headlines about this

And this poor girl.

If people actually read about this case, they would know this. Y'all decrying this do get you are literally making conservative, anti choice arguments, right? You are carrying water for these folks, in the US and every place else in the world.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #147)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:17 PM

152. She exactly died from legal suicide.

She was allowed to stop eating and drinking and was not force fed.
That's suicide.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #152)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 06:02 AM

166. No, she did not die from legal suicide

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #166)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 08:22 AM

169. What are you saying she died from then?

She stopped eating and drinking in order to kill herself. That's suicide.
She was allowed to do so because it takes a long time for someone to die if someone is not eating or drinking.
How exactly is that not legal suicide?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #147)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:26 PM

154. No. What I am saying is that this case represents the slippery slope people against "assisted

suicide” for people with terminal illnesses refer to in their arguments. I’d rather use the term “death with dignity” as the choice is not between dying and living, but a matter of HOW one dies.

To extrapolate from this case to all cases in which choice is involved is to over-generalize the issue and make an on the bus or off the bus argument.

Don’t accuse me of making conservative arguments that are anti the right to legal abortion or anti so-called and badly called “assisted suicide.”

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #154)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 06:04 AM

167. SHE DID NOT DIE FROM GOVT ASSISTED SUICIDE

What you just wrote, the "slippery slope" argument, IS a RW argument against legal gov-assisted suicide. That is NOT what happened in this case. The Dutch government REFUSED to assist her in this.

Quit doubling down.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #167)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 02:41 PM

172. I said I do not call death with dignity assisted suicide. Her case was not legally assisted

euthanasia, true. Unfortunately, media is playing the non-intervention as such.
But my point is that had this been a case of assisted suicide, as some here are taking it, to support it gives the RW fodder in THEIR argument against death with dignity being a slippery slope.
I firmly support death with dignity.
I only hope all the religions against it which refuse religious rites—communion, burial—to those who legally exercise the right to a dignified death will change their punitive attitudes to get in line with State laws. I hope one day, all states will support death with dignity and that federal provision
will be made. I discovered almost all organized religions deny followers availing themselves of a death with dignity certain religious services.
Meanwhile, Medicaid does not pay for expensive medication physicians can legally prescribe to
terminally ill who have only a choice, and only in some states, of HOW, not if they die.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 07:14 PM

151. You know what would have been 100% better?

Last edited Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Allow her to have a death on paper, and give her a chance to start over somewhere else. Yes, someone with money would have to build that Cinderella story for her. And yes, there would be continuing therapy involved. I don't know where this child has been in the world, but maybe if she was allowed to start all over in a place where people's worlds are more stark than the one she has lived in, her sense of priorities might get an awakening.

It would have been worth a shot.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #151)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:23 PM

159. You have a big heart.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:16 PM

158. Poor baby, so sad. RIP

This world can be impossible.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:16 PM

160. I'm sad she went through that pain.

The pain that drives one to this is horrible.

I have attempted it 3 times. There really isn't words to truly describe it. I wish her peace.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:01 PM

163. Seriously sloppy journalism and Euronews has corrected its headline.

Miss Pothoven deserved better... on so many levels.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #163)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 06:05 AM

168. And people alllll through this thread still saying she was given

assisted suicide by the Dutch government.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #168)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 08:25 AM

170. Because that what was reported in the article linked in the OP.

Most people don't even read the article beyond the headline, let alone look for additional sources. Which in this case only appeared later, after numerous msm sources already reported she died from euthanasia.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #168)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 07:43 PM

176. People - everywhere - need to slow down with these types of headlines,

start sweating the details, and consider the source. But I guess in a social media society that's asking too much...

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 03:00 PM

173. This post needs revision. The media got it wrong. Facts developed in the story show

the young Dutch lady died of starvation without any medical intervention, not under Dutch law, which does provide for legal suicide in cases other than for terminal illnesses.



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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #173)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 07:48 PM

177. You can read an update here.

On Tuesday, English-language news outlets began reporting that Noa Pothoven, a 17-year-old Dutch girl, had been legally euthanized at her home in the Netherlands after saying that her struggles following childhood sexual assaults had rendered her life unbearable. It was a shocking story that quickly made the rounds online. Pothoven’s name even became a trending topic on Twitter in Italy. The only thing was, it wasn’t true.

As Politico Europe correspondent Naomi O’Leary noted in a Twitter thread on Wednesday morning, Pothoven did not die by euthanasia. She died over the weekend, in her home, several days after she had stopped drinking and eating, and after her parents and doctors agreed not to force-feed her.


https://bit.ly/2XEctfe

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #177)

Thu Jun 6, 2019, 08:00 PM

178. Good. Thanks. Just a very sad story. Glad she was not alone.

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