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Wed May 29, 2019, 04:12 PM

Not just obstruction, TREASON

Much of the immediate commentary following special counsel Robert Mueller’s surprise press conference on Wednesday focused on his damning statements about President Donald Trump’s actions that potentially could be charged as obstruction of justice—if Justice Department policy did not prohibit the indictment of a sitting president. But Mueller’s remarks were also a reminder of the core elements of the Trump-Russia scandal: Moscow attacked the 2016 election to help Trump, and Trump assisted Vladimir Putin’s assault by claiming at the time (and afterward) that it wasn’t real. That is, whether or not Trump had criminally colluded with Russian operatives, he did side with a foreign adversary that attacked American democracy—and that’s treachery.

More:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/robert-mueller-donald-trump-usa/

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Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply Not just obstruction, TREASON (Original post)
kpete May 2019 OP
Kid Berwyn May 2019 #1
pazzyanne May 2019 #5
maddiemom May 2019 #7
TwilightZone May 2019 #16
LiberalLovinLug May 2019 #18
Kid Berwyn May 2019 #20
gordianot May 2019 #2
emmaverybo May 2019 #3
gordianot May 2019 #4
Lonestarblue May 2019 #8
TwilightZone May 2019 #6
2naSalit May 2019 #11
Hortensis May 2019 #13
TwilightZone May 2019 #14
Hortensis May 2019 #17
Hermit-The-Prog May 2019 #19
Surrogate May 2019 #9
triron May 2019 #23
RedParrot May 2019 #10
ffr May 2019 #12
Codeine May 2019 #15
triron May 2019 #22
triron May 2019 #21

Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:20 PM

1. David Corn sums it up.

“Mueller did not advocate any course of action. His job is done, his mission accomplished. He announced his resignation and passed the case for obstruction to Congress. But he has told a slice of the story—a slice that is damning for Trump. It fixes a spotlight on the momentous lies Trump and his crew have told, lies that aided Putin’s war on American democracy, and lies that continue to flow from Trump and his henchmen. Mueller has served the truth. In doing so, he has indicted Trump—not in a legal sense, but for betraying his country.”

Thank you for the heads-up, kpete!

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #1)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:51 PM

5. Can anyone say "coverup"?

You'd think that the tRump cabal would have learned something from Nixon's impeachment.

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Response to pazzyanne (Reply #5)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:01 PM

7. Yeah: "If the president does it, it is not illegal."

And Nixon quit knowing impeachment was inevitable and the Senate would probably follow through and "convict." He was a choirboy compared to Trump because he was experienced in government and actually cared how history would remember him. 1968 was the first year that I could vote, and I was strongly against the man. But then "No one expects...the Donald!"

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Response to maddiemom (Reply #7)

Wed May 29, 2019, 06:01 PM

16. Perhaps, more accurately...

at least in the present context:

"If the president does it, he can't be indicted while in office."

He could face indictments after his presidency based on his illegal actions while president. That remains to be seen, of course.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #16)

Wed May 29, 2019, 06:50 PM

18. Couldn't a President Pence simply aquit him?

If he was ever charged, or even before he was charged, as a private citizen, if he was removed from office before the next election?

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Response to pazzyanne (Reply #5)

Wed May 29, 2019, 08:34 PM

20. Jaworski sent to House the secret Watergate Roadmap

It spelled out, with examples, how Nixon obstructed justice.

Regarding Team Moron, the obstruction is to cover up treason — asking for, receiving and paying back Putin for his help.

If Congress follows up on what Mueller spelled out, Trump is toast.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:26 PM

2. Strictly speaking we are not at war with the Russian Federation, China, or North Korea.

However a nuclear exchange with any of the three could be set in motion in a matter of minutes. Assuming that a state of war has to exist in order to charge treason was clearly not considered by the authors of the Constitution given the literal minutes required to exchange destruction in a nuclear war. Someday soon treason needs to be better defined.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #2)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:29 PM

3. War needs to be redefined in view of the strong possibility of cyberwar.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #3)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:38 PM

4. That too, Cyberwar is potentially as deadly as a nuclear exchange.

We appear to have lost a low intensity Cyberwar in 2016.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #3)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:21 PM

8. Russia declared cyberwar on the US with their invasion of most states' election systems.

People keep saying that Russia did not change votes, but there was a reason for their hacking of our voting systems. What did they plant in our outdated systems that will allow them to manipulate the 2020 election? Trump and Republicans have done nothing to secure our voting systems because they’re fine with Russians choosing our president and members of Congress when they’re Republicans.

There are any number of bad actors—Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and who knows who else—who have the capabilities for causing major disruptions in our elections. And most of them would prefer Trump because they can manipulate him with enough flattery. In addition, our electric infrastructure is so hackable that major power outages can be manipulated. Imagine that happening on election day! Meanwhile, all Republicans care about is appointing radical, right-wing judges and giving more tax cuts to the ultra wealthy.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 04:53 PM

6. It's not treason.

We're not at war with Russia, officially or otherwise. An attempt to hack or influence our elections doesn't fit the definition, even if stretched to its limit. The definition is (intentionally, as designed by the founders) incredibly narrow.

Here's a good explanation of the narrow scope of treason and why it almost never applies. If the Cold War and the Rosenbergs didn't fit the definition, the current situation certainly doesn't.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/americans-have-forgotten-what-treason-actually-means-how-it-can-ncna848651

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #6)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:24 PM

11. +1

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #6)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:43 PM

13. Yes, it is, and there are OTHER legal words and/or terms

that mean treason and would be used, like "conspiracy to defraud the United States." There's at least one more, probably more, that I don't remember.

But they are how we most often prosecute traitors who have committed treason, which is the common lay term most of us use for obvious reasons. Its less common definition in the constitution is of course important to practitioners of constitutional law.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #13)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:51 PM

14. No, it's not.

Treason means treason.

"Conspiracy to defraud the United States" means conspiracy to defraud the United States, which is probably closer to sedition than treason anyway, if you want to get technical.

If we're going to use words, we should understand what they mean and to which contexts they apply. This is clearly not treason, as it is defined by the Constitution. Just because it's popular to yell "treason" at everything Trump does doesn't mean that it's accurate. It simply is not.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #14)

Wed May 29, 2019, 06:11 PM

17. I'm addressing the pedantry here. I would imagine

constitutional attorneys all realized very early on that treason's lay meaning is in far more common use than its legal meaning. It's downright foolish, not just wrong, to keep trying to "correct" people who know perfectly well what treason is and use the lay term properly.

Irritating, unnecessary, even insulting, and maybe the last time? Because OF COURSE we have the means of prosecuting treason whenever it might have occurred. And, of course, for exactly the reasons you point out the constitutional meaning is unlikely to come into play; almost no one's been prosecuted under that one.

Treason: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government. the action of betraying someone or something.

Traitor: a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #6)

Wed May 29, 2019, 07:21 PM

19. treason as defined by the Constitution

Congress has not declared a punishment for treason committed without war, but the Constitution does not restrict its definition to war.

Trump has committed treason as defined in the Constitution by giving aid and comfort to Putin's Russia. We just don't have a punishment defined for his treason because of the restrictions Congress imposed on the punishment they declared.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:23 PM

9. Stick to authentic definitions

Let's not fall into the trap of making up terms and definitions for our own purposes.
Treason is defined in the Constitution. The country must be at war in order for a citizen to commit treason.
Drumpf has committed impeachable offenses, but he has not "colluded" or "committed treason".

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Response to Surrogate (Reply #9)

Wed May 29, 2019, 08:54 PM

23. You are denying one of the worst instances of treason history has ever seen.

So stick our head in the sand and deny Russia attacked us at out most fundamental level and Trump
encouraged and participated in their execution of these attacks.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:24 PM

10. Impeach Trump

 

Congress do your job!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:36 PM

12. Start the inquiry!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 05:53 PM

15. Yay, more people using words they don't understand. nt

 

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Response to Codeine (Reply #15)

Wed May 29, 2019, 08:50 PM

22. Sigh.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2019, 08:50 PM

21. Yes treason of an unprecedented kind. Even those that created this legal term could not have

anticipated Trump's treason.

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