Do Democrats need to have the Mueller "verdict" before they can start an impeachment inquiry?

[kentuck]

Isn't there enough evidence if Robert Mueller doesn't speak up at all?

Yes, it would be good to know that Trump attempted to fire Mueller from his post as Special Counsel, but there are so many other high crimes and misdemeanors, is it even necessary for Robert Mueller to speak up?

If Robert Mueller refuses to talk to the Congress or the American people, Donald Trump will continue to abuse and break the laws of this country. He will not cease. His rate of non-compliance with the laws seems to increase with each passing day?

Will there come a time where the number of high crimes and misdemeanors is so high that no one can keep up with them? Congress will have to let them pass because they don't have the competence or the ability to deal with such a large number? They will simply be over-whelmed?

[wasupaloopa]

1. A House impeachment will not stop trump. We all know that. Why persist in thinking

the Senate will convict him?

We can only vote him out of office. Unless you can get republicans to turn on trump there is no other way but to vote him out of office,

[kentuck]

2. And tell me what happens when....?

Trump, with his propaganda machine, defeats the Democrats in the next election, mostly because the people were not able to get the facts they needed to make an informed decision, and the only chance to get to the truth was given up. For what?

[watoos]

4. The "let's wait Democrats"

believe that everything will be revealed through normal committee hearings. I do not believe that. I believe that most court cases will be delayed right up to the election. We have a better chance with the courts through an impeachment hearing. If a grizzly bear is charging you and you have a 22 and a 30-06 gun handy, I'm picking up the 30-06.

[Trumpocalypse]

7. Why is there a better chance in the courts

with an impeachment hearing?

[watoos]

12. First of all we get the grand jury testimony

under regular hearings I doubt that we ever see that info.

Impeachment hearings carry more clout with the courts according to experts I have listened to. We have a better case to have the courts expedite their decisions.

[Trumpocalypse]

17. You keep saying impeachment hearings

carry more clout with the courts. What is the evidence of that?

[StarfishSaver]

19. There is no certainty that impeachment hearings will lead to Democrats getting grand jury testimony

Impeachment hearings don't automatically entitle anyone to obtaining such materials. That's totally up to a judge. And a judge has just as much ability to release grand jury information to Democrats as part of an oversight process preliminary to impeachment as to an impeachment hearing.

Also, a judge's discretionary release of grand jury materials is not the only way to obtain this information. Any witness in the grand jury is free to discuss their testimony and can be compelled to testify before any congressional hearing, be it an impeachment hearing or oversight hearing.

And, you and others keep saying that "impeachment hearings carry more clout" but neither you nor any of the experts you're relying on have offered any proof that that is actually the case. It's just an assumption.

Whether or not to expedite a matter is completely up to the individual judge, who will move as quickly or as slowly as they choose. And given how quickly Judge Mehta and Judge Ramos handed down their decisions last week outside of the impeachment process, no one can rationally argue that impeachment hearings are necessary to expedite decisions.

[Trumpocalypse]

6. House investigations will get the facts to the people

Rushing into impeachment with an acquittal in the Senate only helps Trump.

[watoos]

13. I'm sorry but you made me giggle,

define "rush into." We have a president who is an unindicted co-conspirator to a felony and who 900+ prosecutors and judges feel is guilty of obstruction of justice.

There are many more high crimes and misdemeanors like abuse of power and violations of the emoluments clause.

[Trumpocalypse]

16. Same was true in Watergate

But rather than rush to impeachment, congress spent a year investigating before starting impeachment. That year of investigation not only moved public opinion but republicans in Congress as well.

[wasupaloopa]

9. 54% know what evil trump is and 46% don't care. There is nothing that is going to change that.

Those who make the impeachment argument make assumptions that are not true.

On edit: the 2020 elections will be about issues like healthcare and affordable education and climate change. Not so much about trump. We need to get ready with the issues arguments and stop pounding the drum of a useless impeachment.

[watoos]

14. Absolutely 100% false,

we won a blue tsunami in 2018 because people wanted a check on Trump, wanted Trump held accountable. Democrats have a mandate to impeach Trump and it's past time to carry out the wishes of the people.

Trump doesn't have 46% support.

Trump is not a strong person, he is thin skinned, if he is impeached he will have nervous breakdown.
When Senate Republicans fail to convict Trump it will be the end of the Republican party, it will be a rallying cry for Democrats to vote down the new anti-democratic Trump party.

It is not an assumption that an impeachment inquiry will give us the grand jury information, Barr himself stated that he would release it under impeachment. I guarantee you that we will never see that grand jury information under regular hearings, Trump/Barr will run the clock out.

Just getting grand jury testimony is reason enough to impeach.

[wasupaloopa]

20. We won 2018 because women especially women of color

voted in large numbers and health care was the important issue also.

[wasupaloopa]

21. Impeachment will not hurt trump or get rid of him

The fact that you can’t except that is very sad.

It’s been weeks since the Mueller report. We have no witnesses to testify. Nothing is getting done but night after night of talking heads saying how bad trump is.

NOTHING will come from impeachment!

[wasupaloopa]

22. Any one of our Congress people can go to a judge and get the grand jury information released.

[wasupaloopa]

23. When the Senate fails to convict the right will say

there was never a reason to convict trump and we will lose in 2020.

There is no reason on earth to take that risk. You will never get rid of trump with impeachment.

There is no positive outcome for us there

We need to run on the issues and not trump

We will win on the issues and trump will be gone

We are not talking about health care or climate change. The right had us by the balls trying to go after trump

[StarfishSaver]

24. "Barr himself stated that he would release it under impeachment." LOL

First, it's laughable that anyone would think that Barr will do something because he said he would do it.

Second, Barr can't release testimony. All he can do is ask judge to release it. That's what he said he would do. Only people who aren't paying attention believe he'll keep his word. But even if he does, it's up to the judge whether to release it.

"Getting grand jury testimony" is not definite outcome of impeachment hearings. And it's not the only consideration that must be weighed in determining when to proceed with impeachment.

Fortunately, Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leadership, their lawyers, experts and advisers are far more knowledgeable about the process than most of the people yelling instructions at them from the cheap seats.

[watoos]

3. Well said Kentuck

Personally I believe that Democrats could have started impeachment before the Mueller report came out.

I like the point you are making, Trump is getting worse, is getting bolder and bolder violating our laws our Constitution our norms our laws of decency. Enough is enough. What don't people get about starting an impeachment inquiry doesn't necessarily warrant a vote for impeachment.

If a Reichstag fire happens and Trump declares martial law will the "let's wait a while longer crowd" get on board then, I doubt it?

Trump's biographer who spent a good amount of time with Trump stated that impeaching Trump would devastate him. Trump is not a strong person, he is extremely thin skinned.

As far as the Senate goes, it will have little effect on who I am voting for and I doubt that it will change the minds of many people. I believe that the Senate not convicting Trump can be used as a rallying cry by Democrats to remove the Trump party from power. A non conviction in the Senate will declare that the Republican party is dead, it is now King Trump.

Time is wasting, let's do it.

[StarfishSaver]

5. I notice that many of the same people who want him impeached right now

are also absolutely furious - some the the point of foul-mouthed nearly hysterical tirades - that Mueller doesn't want to testify on television.

On the one hand, they insist the Democrats have more than enough to go with now and don't need to gather any more information to start impeachment proceedings immediately. But, on the other, they seem to think that if Mueller doesn't testify about his report on camera, disaster will befall us, suggesting they think the Democrats DON'T have enough yet and, at least need Mueller's testimony to help make their case.

So, I dunno.

[watoos]

15. You won't find 1 of my posts where I demanded

that Mueller testify in public. I would much prefer that he did but I am ok with reading a transcript.

[StarfishSaver]

18. If you never said that, then you're not among the "many" that I referred to

[Igel]

8. They're unrelated in principle.

There's no need for a report from the Executive branch to sanction Congress' actions against the top person in the Executive branch.

[Funtatlaguy]

10. This is the one statement the country needs from him.

Preferably on live tv, or on tape, or at least in a written transcript.

“As Volume Two of the report showed, there is ample evidence that the President obstructed Justice. The only reason he was not indicted was that we followed the protocol of not indicting a sitting President.”

[FakeNoose]

11. It needs to be on the record before the Repukes have a chance to rewrite it all

Mueller's evidence and the results of his investigation will just disappear into thin air, if they are left in the hand of Bill Barr and Chump. Of that we can be sure, and we need Robert Mueller to testify asap - even if the only way he'll do it is behind closed doors. It must be his sworn testimony with documented evidence and it needs to be archived for later proceedings.

Whether Chump gets impeached, or indicted, or something else, we need Mueller's evidence with clear unequivocal answers on the record.

Secondly it will be further proof for impeaching/indicting Barr, once we've dealt with Chump's crimes.