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Tue May 21, 2019, 11:02 PM

Impeachment/investigative hearings will CHANGE public opinion!

Just like in the Nixon situation, hearings will radically change public opinion. Just look at the polls on the subject before and after those hearings. Public opinion changed from being decisively in opposition to impeachment to being decisively in favor of impeachment. Plus, the hearings brought about new revelations, something that would likely happen this time, also.

The GOP says that if we pursue the impeachment of Trump, our losses will be similar to the losses they suffered as a consequence of the Clinton impeachment. NONSENSE! When the full facts about Clinton were exposed, what Americans saw was a very modest bit of lying about sex. With Trump, it has been massive lying and obstruction centered on national security, Russia, etc., in concert with a set of authoritarian actions. That makes a big difference! Today’s poll numbers on the subject mean nothing!

Something to remember: When the GOP warns us that an action on the part of the Democrats would hurt the Democrats……well…..Occam would say: They are telling us not to do something because they DON’T want us to do something! Every time this happens, too many in our party swallow this reverse psych technique hook, line, and sinker! Too many of us have swallowed this canard yet again. Believe me….they are NOT trying to help the Democratic party avoid self-inflicted electoral harm! They are trying to help themselves!

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Reply Impeachment/investigative hearings will CHANGE public opinion! (Original post)
tableturner May 21 OP
InAbLuEsTaTe May 21 #1
RDANGELO May 21 #2
tableturner May 21 #3
sprinkleeninow May 22 #5
Lock him up. May 22 #11
Xolodno May 21 #4
pecosbob May 22 #6
Xolodno May 22 #7
tableturner May 22 #9
tableturner May 22 #14
Xolodno May 22 #22
BigmanPigman May 22 #8
tableturner May 22 #10
Lock him up. May 22 #12
tableturner May 22 #13
0rganism May 22 #15
Drunken Irishman May 22 #16
tableturner May 22 #17
Drunken Irishman May 22 #18
tableturner May 22 #19
Drunken Irishman May 22 #20
Laelth May 22 #21
uponit7771 May 22 #24
uponit7771 May 22 #23

Response to tableturner (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:10 PM

1. Right on the money!! Great post!!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:12 PM

2. It might depend on what they come up with.

Trumps accounting firm is eventually going to be turning over documents to the house, If they can get some expert in front of a committee to say that he has been laundering money for the Russians, it's game over.

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:17 PM

3. To add to my OP......

What is the one thing Trump and crew seem the most worried about? They are desperate to ensure that the full facts are never known by the public, and they especially dread dramatic hearings that would bring the facts to life in the living rooms of America. If that were to happen, just like with Watergate, the public would be riveted to their TV screens. Even the relatively less interested masses would find out the truth, which Trump and crew figure would be disastrous.

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Response to tableturner (Reply #3)

Wed May 22, 2019, 12:02 AM

5. I concur with what you bolded. n/t

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Response to tableturner (Reply #3)

Wed May 22, 2019, 05:40 AM

11. The judge in the Flynn's case almost lost his mind at what...

he saw Flynn did...

Imagine when it will come out in the open! (If it's not too complex to simplify for TV...)

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:59 PM

4. *Looks at Free Republic and other rabid right wing sites*

Yeah, sure it will.


Lets see, we go out for blood and impeach in the House. Senate under Moscow Mitch denies it. Why not? Their Cult base is going to keep them employed.

After the proceedings, Dump says he's exonerated....and this time, its true. Goes on a pardon spree all the while saying "to prevent sore losers attacking his friends because of the failed impeachment attempt". And because of the failed attempt....we got egg on our face.

Madam Speaker is already on record that it appears that Dump is TRYING to get them to impeach. And its true, he WANTS it to look partisan.

I'm not against impeachment, but, the call should be a ground swell from the public. Put the House in the position of stating it has no choice but to due to public outrage.....because along with this outrage even Senators will not be immune.

And guess what, its slowly getting there. Every "executive privilege" claim stopping people from testifying, every leak that comes out, every court battle lost by the Dump administration, etc. doesn't work in his favor, in fact, its the opposite.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #4)

Wed May 22, 2019, 12:23 AM

6. Inertia and momentum

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Response to pecosbob (Reply #6)

Wed May 22, 2019, 12:37 AM

7. Exactly.

Every media circus court trial is decided by the public long before the jury deliberates...in this case, the Senate.

Let the public decide he's guilty before impeachment proceeds, because by that point, he's already done.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #4)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:37 AM

9. Why do you assume that public opinion won't change?

The ground swell would come if the reality is dramatically exposed to Americans in their living rooms daily during hearings. It happened with Nixon. It would happen this time, too. We MUST expose them.....the public will then follow. If we never expose them, the public will never follow.

And I don't think Trump is really trying to get us to impeach him. I think he's trying to get us to FALSELY BELIEVE that he wants us to impeach him. He is trying to gaslight us.

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Response to tableturner (Reply #9)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:15 PM

14. Laurence Tribe agrees with me:


?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1131238744370089984&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100212119157

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Response to tableturner (Reply #9)

Wed May 22, 2019, 06:01 PM

22. Because at minimum 40% of this country will believe anything he says.

He could say moon is made out of green cheese and his base will go ape shit at astronomers and NASA for a massive liberal cover up.

And unfortunately most of that base is in fly over country with nowhere near the population of the coastal areas...but they all get two Senators.

And this isn't anywhere near like Nixon, you had sane Republicans back then who put country over party. Now you have Moscow Mitch who would see the capital burn before he works with a Democrat.

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:23 AM

8. Remember he said, "This is going to end my #%@* presidency"

in the Mueller report? What was he referring to? Was it about Mueller being in charge of the investigation or was it about his finances being revealed?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #8)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:40 AM

10. Trump was obstructing for a reason. People forget that.

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Response to tableturner (Reply #10)

Wed May 22, 2019, 05:49 AM

12. He's still obstructing for a reason.

Panic about his finances coming to light.

He's hidding some really damning things, including alleged money laundering from foreign crime syndicates: Al Capone was a boy scout compared to these murdering crooks!

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Response to Lock him up. (Reply #12)

Wed May 22, 2019, 12:20 PM

13. Why is this reality not mentioned often?

Obviously some of his obstruction has worked!

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:27 PM

15. if they're right, we deserve what we get

if, after investigations expose Trump's perfidy and corruption, and an impeachment resolution is approved by the House of Representatives, if after all this the American people are willing to vote to give this monster and his enablers even more opportunities to wreck the nation, then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

still, let it be done. strike a brave blow for truth, regardless of consequences.

every empire falls eventually. maybe it's our turn next, we will soon see.

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2019, 01:50 PM

16. It might - but it's not a guarantee.

Why do you think it's a guarantee that it'll change public opinion?

If they obstruct, obfuscate and project throughout the whole investigation, and then the senate turns around and acquits, it's possible the public opinion doesn't change all that much.

Just as with the Mueller probe. Trump's approval today is about the level it was a year ago.

The Nixon comparison is just not a valid one. For starters, Nixon was already in a devastatingly bad position as president even prior to the pre-impeachment hearings in the summer of 1973. On 8/6/1973, months before they'd even take up impeachment, only 31% of the country approved of Nixon. Currently, Trump is at an average approval of 42% - over ten-percent higher than Nixon was. What this tells us is that, even before impeachment hearings began, Nixon had lost a considerable amount of support from the American people (he started the year, his second term in office, with only 25% disapproval). There's been no collapse of support from Trump - he's stayed relatively at the total of approval as he was a year ago. And in fact, his approval is actually higher today than at this point two years ago, as, on 5/22/2017, he had an approval rating of 40%. Trump's approval would get progressively worse throughout 2017 but has rebounded, to a point, or at least, stopped its decline Which, again, ties back around to the point i made initially: the Mueller Report didn't ding him in approval - don't 100% expect impeachment to, as well.

Beyond that, what really set things in motion for Nixon's impeachment was the Saturday Night Massacre, which was a direct result of the Attorney General, Elliot Richardson, to fire Archibald Cox. Richardson refused the presidential orders and resigned - as did Deputy Attorney General Ruckelshaus. We've already seen from William Barr that he's a Trump lacky, who'll do ANYTHING Trump wants of him - so, it's unlikely he'd refuse a Trump order and set in motion the type of reaction we saw out of the Saturday Night Massacre.

That happened on Oct. 20th. Nixon's approval still sat at roughly 30%. It dipped 27% in the wake of the Massacre.

Nixon's approval never really changed much over the next year - he sat roughly around 24-30% support. Nixon's final approval rating was 24% when he resigned on 8/5/1974 - a change of 7 points from where he was on 8/5/73 - right before the Watergate investigation really took off.

That's the thing that should be worrying liberals right now when comparing this to Nixon. Public opinion had already cemented around Nixon. He was far more toxic, months before impeachment hearings even began, then Trump is currently.

Trump's approval isn't great but it's nowhere near Nixon bad. Granted, if impeachment hearings net Trump a seven-point decrease in his polling between now and election day, 2020, it'll be devastating because that would put him at only 35% support - but I'm not sure that's worth the risk of impeachment potentially solidifying his support even more. The fact Trump's numbers have hardly budged, whereas Nixon's plummeted even before impeachment, tells me his absolute floor right now is 40%. If impeachment does not change that, it's a risk that may backfire - especially if the senate does everything in their power to exonerate him and not one Republican senator crosses over the lines to vote for removal.

What did Nixon in was Republicans turning against him - not Democrats holding hearings.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #16)

Wed May 22, 2019, 02:38 PM

17. Ervin's PUBLIC Watergate hearings began 5-17-73, on 5-14-73 Nixon's approval was 44%.

So your premise is wrong by virtue of your ignoring Nixon's approval ratings before Sam Ervin's PUBLIC TELEVISED Watergate hearings began (5-17-73....approval 44% on 5-14-73), and by ignoring the devastating effects of those televised hearings. As you stated in your post, by 8-6-73, LESS THAN THREE MONTHS LATER, his approval was down to 31%.

Ervin's hearings were not impeachment hearings, but they dramatically exposed the public to the truth on TV's all across America. Call the hearings whatever you want, but the dramatic exposure of the truth to the country did the trick with Nixon, JUST LIKE IT WOULD WITH TRUMP.

See the Watergate timeline here (scroll down to May 18,1973 and read those two paragraphs):

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/complete-watergate-timeline-took-longer-realize

Then go to this page with Nixon's approval ratings, and scroll 3/4 of the way down to 1973 to see that year's ratings:

https://historyinpieces.com/research/nixon-approval-ratings

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Response to tableturner (Reply #17)

Wed May 22, 2019, 02:42 PM

18. No. My premise is right.

Trump is far better positioned at this stage of the game then Nixon was.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #18)

Wed May 22, 2019, 02:47 PM

19. Did you even read my post?

Today, Trump's approval stands at 42%, according to your post. Nixon's were at 44% the day before Ervin's Watergate hearings began, then dropped to 31% less than three months later.

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Response to tableturner (Reply #19)

Wed May 22, 2019, 03:44 PM

20. Yes. Did you read mine?

We're not at the beginning of the story here. You're comparing the beginning of it all to the middle-possible end. Prior to May, 1973, most Americans hadn't even heard of Watergate. In fact, Archibald Cox was appointed as the special prosecutor at this time - something that happened with Trump and the Mueller investigation two years ago last Friday. You're comparing polling numbers in the infancy of the Watergate investigation to polling numbers two-years into the Mueller investigation. They're not comparable.

In fact, your post actually proves my point: Trump has weathered the investigation far better than Nixon did, as once the investigation began into Watergate, Nixon's numbers plummeted as more and more Americans became aware of the investigation.

There were also other factors that led to Nixon's continued drop in the polls:

1) FBI Director L. Patrick Gray resigned after admitting to destroying documents received after the Watergate burglary, documents pulled from E. Howard Hunt's safe, which was given to him by White House counsel John Dean (linking the Nixon White House to the destroying of evidence).

2) White House counsel John Dean is fired. H. R. Haldeman, Nixon's Chief of Staff, is forced to resign.

3) In June, 1973, the Washington Post reports that John Dean admitted discussing the cover-up with Nixon.

All of this within a span of a month. By July, the existence of the tapes are revealed and Nixon refuses to hand 'em over.

The resignation of Gray, the firing of Dean and H. R. Haldeman all happened BEFORE the televised hearings in May. That's what set in motion the whole thing and it led to a sharp decline in Nixon's approval.

On 4/2/73, Nixon sat at 58% approval. On 5/7/73, just a moth later, Nixon's approval had dropped THIRTEEN points, which is damn-well unprecedented. Again, this before the actual televised hearings began. It shows just how crippling those revelations were and it set in motion a very devastating year for Nixon.

The comparison doesn't hold. Nixon was hemorrhaging support already by the time the hearings began - Trump isn't hemorrhaging support. He's stagnant.

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2019, 03:55 PM

21. I care less about public opinion than I do about doing our Constitutional duty.

We have plenty to impeach Trump on already. Our endless investigations are just feeding Trump’s “witch hunt” narrative at this point.

I say, impeach him now.

Then Republicans in the Senate can debate the merits of their own, criminal President while Democrats focus on the issues that really matter to the American people. At the same time, we’ll be able to hold our heads high knowing that we did our Constitutional duty.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #21)

Wed May 22, 2019, 06:18 PM

24. We can have both, better to walk down the hill and get all of them

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Response to tableturner (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2019, 06:18 PM

23. THIS !!!!

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