If there is no impeachment, Trump and the Republicans will go into the next election....

[kentuck]

...loudly declaring that they were found innocent. No collusion! No obstruction! It was all a witch hunt!

It was all a waste of money.

How will that play in the voting public?

[hlthe2b]

1. Not to mention few Americans want to support those who do not "stand for something"

and SHOW it. If they allow the Presidency to be decimated by the overt corruption and for Trump and his ilk to face no repercussions, I just don't see how we inspire the overwhelming DEM turnout we HAVE to have.

[kentuck]

2. Republicans voters could not be blamed for believing that Trump was innocent of all charges.

It would inspire Republican turnout, in my opinion.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Only if Ds let them get away with it. But fail to convict in Senate and tRump will be louder.

An impeachment that fails in the Senate will make tRump and the Republicons even louder and more insistent on the issue. They will say "not only Mueller, but the Senate of the United States cleared Trump!"

A failed impeachment is worse than no impeachment attempt.

At this time.

Work on weak Republicons. Work on the media.

[kentuck]

5. Your point would be more credible if....

...no facts or information came out in the impeachment or the Senate trial. But, if enough evidence is shown the public, it would make it more difficult to simply declare that everyone has been "cleared", after people have seen evidence to the contrary.

People can be educated during an impeachment proceeding. It is not so easy to cover up facts that are backed up with documentation.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

6. It is credible because the Democrats are investigating & bringing out facts & information NOW. . .nt

[kentuck]

8. How so?

They can get no documents and no witnesses. Everything is going to the Courts.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

9. Of course! Defendants have rights under the US legal system! And it is NOT "no docs / witnesses".

Not going as fast as you or I would like.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. Same thing would happen to impeachment hearings: no docs/witnesses, same Court process. . . . nt

[StarfishSaver]

14. This is exactly what would happen in an impeachment

The process is exactly the same and they'd end up in the courts, just as they are now.

[kentuck]

32. There is probably more justification for releasing documents if there is an official impeachment?

But, they would probably make a distinction if there was "only" an impeachment inquiry?

[StarfishSaver]

33. No. There's legal distinction between releasing documents for impeachment or other oversight

Either the administration is legally required to release documents to Congress or they're not. it makes no difference whether it's an impeachment and inqury or any other kind of oversight inquiry.

[sop]

11. When (not if) the Senate fails to convict

Trump will be braying, "See, I was found not guilty!" The only ones who need to be attacked for not impeaching Trump are Republicans, not Democrats.

Republicans are the ones who need to be convinced Trump is a danger to our Democracy. Perhaps when confronted with Trump's most recent rantings at his Bund Rally Monday night, they might reconsider their support for this tyrant:

"We’re going to have a second [term], and then we’re going to have another one. We’ll drive them crazy. And maybe if we really like it a lot, and if things keep going like they are going, we’ll go and we’ll do what we have to do, and a three [terms] and a four, and a five.”

[hlthe2b]

15. A Hobson's Choice is a decision between 'something' and 'nothing'

Sophie's Choice was a choice between two options, both with equally undesirable consequences.

I keep thinking there is a modern philosophical term for what we face here--with unknown outcomes and considerable peril, either way, but all I can really come up with is RISKY CHOICE. At some point, we may just have to "jump"...

[Midnightwalk]

17. Pick our failure

I am one of the people who say it is too early in the process to hold impeachment hearings. For one thing the current court fights over getting bank records, tax returns, testimony, and the unredacted report are more urgent.

I don’t like your argument because if we don’t eventually impeach, trump will say that the democrats didn’t impeach because the mueller report cleared him and they agreed.

Either way the republicans get motivated. Working through hearings and court cases might change some independents. If after say year end we say that impeachment is not an option we risk appearing feckless.

I would hope that all Democrats show up to vote but we’ll need to keep our side motivated as well.

[kentuck]

18. You may be right?

The impeachment pot temperature is beginning to rise. It would be best to leave it on the stove until the pot is boiling and more and more people have taken notice? Perhaps?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Nothing I wrote was in favor of "don't impeach". Key phrase in my post: "At this time."

More & more info is coming out about the Trump mob's crimes. And tRump commits more each day. He can't help himself.

I expect he will be impeached before the election, but then again I expected Mueller's report to find more stuff and to nail tRump.

[Midnightwalk]

23. Fair enough

I should have said I wasn’t sure what you meant by at this time. You started off with the downside of losing in the senate. I was mainly just giving the downside of not trying after we do more work up front.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. Ah, I mean that Republicons can be scared into protecting their seats by convicting when the heat is

... high enough.

When impeachment was mooted about in 1973, there were not enough Republican Senators to convict, so it was held off. By summer 1974 the tide was turning and there came a point when Nixon was told he had lost the Senate. He resigned rather than be impeached and convicted.

So the heat on them needs to be raised. Investigations are doing that, getting information out, among other things Democrats are doing.

[gratuitous]

4. You are correct, sir

Get the case before the Senate, and let the Republican Senators explain their failure to remove Trump, rather than trying to explain to a short-attention-span public the intricacies of impeachment, trial, conviction, and removal from office. "We sent an iron-clad case to the Senate, but Republicans would rather serve their party and its corruption instead of the country. Vote them out!"

[kentuck]

7. That would be a problem for them, I would agree.

To ignore the evidence that would come out in an impeachment proceeding could have dire political consequences, in my opinion.

[lark]

12. They will say that exact same thing if there is an impeachment & Senate doesn't convict.

However, the difference is -
it will gin up right wingers even more
It will definitely fire up the left and Democratic base because all the corruption will be on display and Repugs will still say he's ok. It will provide excellent fodder for advertisements and debates.
It will probably pull some Independents away from the Russian Repugs when they see the treason and criminality displayed in full living color.

I think drumpf will continue to up the ante until he forces Dems to file articles of Impeachment, he will force it because he's a vainglorious ignoramus and he and PUtin have obviously hatched up some plans for this and he wants his spectacle.

[StarfishSaver]

13. If there IS an impeachment but no conviction, Trump and Republicans will go into the next election

...loudly declaring that they were found innocent. No collusion! No obstruction! It was all a witch hunt!

It was all a waste of money.

How will that play in the voting public?

[kentuck]

20. But something would have happened in the interim...

Facts and information would have come out that would make the argument much more difficult to make.

[Nuggets]

30. Facts and info coming out now.

No need to initiate impeachment proceedings until Dems are ready.

I’ll put my faith in Adam Schiff and a Pelosi as they are privy to info I’m not. Schiff has legal experience in this area.

[Wounded Bear]

16. They'll spin it no matter what happens...

but we do need to do due diligence. It's looking like impeachment might be inevitable.

If we do impeach and the Senate votes to reject it, they'll declare victory, too.

[PufPuf23]

21. Trump will likely win POTUS 2020 if he is not impeached or otherwise gone

from office of POTUS.

The Democratic party has more to lose by not moving forward with impeachment than by impeachment with or without conviction in the Senate. I do not get folks arguing otherwise because they are obviously wrong and harming the nation and the party.

[OliverQ]

22. They'll do that anyway when Republicans refuse to convict him in the Senate.

They'll claim "See, the Senate found him innocent. No collusion. No obstruction!"

[kentuck]

24. After all the evidence has come out showing collusion and obstruction?

They would still say that crap? I don't know how effective that might be?

[TwilightZone]

27. The evidence is already there

...and they're ignoring it.

So, yes, they'll continue to say the same crap they're saying now.

This isn't complicated.

[OliverQ]

34. Yes. They're saying that right now despite evidence proving obstruction.

[TwilightZone]

25. They'll do that if he's acquitted, as well.

Everything you said applies equally to an acquittal, if not more so.

Trump will declare victory regardless of what happens. That shouldn't be news to anyone. It's what he does.

[Nuggets]

28. Not if the House continues to uncover

more obstruction or conspiring. Trump is being investigated, subpoenas are being issued etc

[VOX]

29. The only way to beat Republicans is to use their tactics.

Civility, “taking the high road,” following the rule of law, using fair play, allowing the system to self-correct— these have ALL failed.

America is now entangled in an existential struggle. Republicans, who’ve drunk deeply from the cup of autocracy, are just fine with letting democracy die.

Like any bully, fighting back viciously is the only thing that he/she/it understands. We’ve “waited for Mueller,” and what gains have comes from that?

It’s past time to begin impeachment proceedings.

[Mike Nelson]

31. They will say that anyway...

… Crooked Donald will always say that - no matter what any report, court, or anyone says... if impeached (and not convicted, by my vote count), he will say it was a coup. He will NOT go quietly.