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Sun May 19, 2019, 11:03 PM

A modest request: Please do your research

It’s not a new thing here but it seems to be more prevalent lately that people are throwing around terms and concepts that they’ve read about somewhere on the internet but haven’t taken the time to actually learn about. As a lawyer, I notice it more when it deals with legal issues, but it’s certainly broader than that.

For example, lately some folk are complaining about (and actually mocking) the Democrats’ “strongly worded letters,” not realizing they are a legal necessity and demanding that Congress exercise its “inherent contempt” authority to throw people in jail immediately, without understanding exactly how this authority works and that it doesn’t permit immediate arrest and jail.

Such misconceptions wouldn’t be a big deal ordinarily, but when people who DO understand these issues try to explain it to them, some folk double down, argue and even get snarky - all the while further demonstrating their lack of knowledge about or even a cursory effort to research the topic.

This discussion board is a great place to engage and learn from each other. I’m constantly learning here. But it’s not helpful if people refuse to make any effort to learn what they’re talking about before they start talking about it, spread misinformation, and then argue and attack when anyone who knows the topic tries to help them better understand it.

I know I’ll likely take some incoming for having the temerity to say this - probably from some of the same folk who are doing what I’m talking about - but I hope people will seriously consider it and take some time to learn more about what they’re discussing, either by researching it before they bring it up or jump into a discussion, or by showing more respect to DUers who have more knowledge about a topic than they do. We all have something to learn about something from someone else.

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Arrow 185 replies Author Time Post
Reply A modest request: Please do your research (Original post)
EffieBlack May 2019 OP
elleng May 2019 #1
watoos May 2019 #30
zentrum May 2019 #100
StarfishSaver May 2019 #103
NYMinute May 2019 #127
zentrum May 2019 #136
WinstonSmith4740 May 2019 #131
zentrum May 2019 #137
SunSeeker May 2019 #173
zentrum May 2019 #184
SunSeeker May 2019 #185
Gothmog May 2019 #179
SunSeeker May 2019 #183
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #2
EffieBlack May 2019 #4
sprinkleeninow May 2019 #9
watoos May 2019 #31
sprinkleeninow May 2019 #180
StarfishSaver May 2019 #3
sheshe2 May 2019 #5
EffieBlack May 2019 #6
sheshe2 May 2019 #7
defacto7 May 2019 #8
pnwmom May 2019 #10
SkyDaddy7 May 2019 #17
True Blue American May 2019 #33
SkyDaddy7 May 2019 #161
pnwmom May 2019 #65
SkyDaddy7 May 2019 #160
applegrove May 2019 #11
certainot May 2019 #12
emmaverybo May 2019 #13
in2herbs May 2019 #14
Control-Z May 2019 #15
SunSeeker May 2019 #18
StarfishSaver May 2019 #23
watoos May 2019 #32
StarfishSaver May 2019 #38
Nuggets May 2019 #54
SunSeeker May 2019 #84
StarfishSaver May 2019 #86
SunSeeker May 2019 #144
EffieBlack May 2019 #146
SunSeeker May 2019 #149
EffieBlack May 2019 #150
SunSeeker May 2019 #151
wryter2000 May 2019 #96
StarfishSaver May 2019 #99
ehrnst May 2019 #116
SunSeeker May 2019 #82
Nuggets May 2019 #55
Hortensis May 2019 #60
SunSeeker May 2019 #77
Nuggets May 2019 #79
SunSeeker May 2019 #81
Nuggets May 2019 #153
SunSeeker May 2019 #154
Nuggets May 2019 #155
SunSeeker May 2019 #157
StarfishSaver May 2019 #158
SunSeeker May 2019 #165
emmaverybo May 2019 #143
SunSeeker May 2019 #152
Nuggets May 2019 #164
SunSeeker May 2019 #166
Nuggets May 2019 #167
SunSeeker May 2019 #168
Nuggets May 2019 #169
SunSeeker May 2019 #170
Nuggets May 2019 #172
SunSeeker May 2019 #175
Nuggets May 2019 #177
SunSeeker May 2019 #182
EffieBlack May 2019 #56
Hortensis May 2019 #61
SunSeeker May 2019 #80
Hortensis May 2019 #88
SunSeeker May 2019 #89
Hortensis May 2019 #91
SunSeeker May 2019 #75
RandiFan1290 May 2019 #19
Ms. Toad May 2019 #51
Codeine May 2019 #117
uponit7771 May 2019 #20
SunSeeker May 2019 #97
StarfishSaver May 2019 #102
SunSeeker May 2019 #104
StarfishSaver May 2019 #106
SunSeeker May 2019 #119
StarfishSaver May 2019 #121
SunSeeker May 2019 #124
StarfishSaver May 2019 #125
SunSeeker May 2019 #126
StarfishSaver May 2019 #128
SunSeeker May 2019 #139
EffieBlack May 2019 #140
SunSeeker May 2019 #145
StarfishSaver May 2019 #21
EffieBlack May 2019 #27
watoos May 2019 #35
StarfishSaver May 2019 #39
watoos May 2019 #42
StarfishSaver May 2019 #45
Laura PourMeADrink May 2019 #122
wryter2000 May 2019 #98
Laura PourMeADrink May 2019 #120
SkyDaddy7 May 2019 #16
Maeve May 2019 #22
wendyb-NC May 2019 #24
mcar May 2019 #25
EffieBlack May 2019 #26
watoos May 2019 #36
StarfishSaver May 2019 #41
reACTIONary May 2019 #148
CatMor May 2019 #28
True Blue American May 2019 #29
watoos May 2019 #37
StarfishSaver May 2019 #44
marylandblue May 2019 #53
True Blue American May 2019 #47
paleotn May 2019 #34
Kurt V. May 2019 #40
Ninga May 2019 #43
MineralMan May 2019 #46
True Blue American May 2019 #48
MineralMan May 2019 #49
True Blue American May 2019 #52
Wounded Bear May 2019 #50
CaptainTruth May 2019 #57
Nuggets May 2019 #58
BeyondGeography May 2019 #59
StarfishSaver May 2019 #62
pnwmom May 2019 #66
BeyondGeography May 2019 #67
pnwmom May 2019 #70
pnwmom May 2019 #71
Honeycombe8 May 2019 #63
stillcool May 2019 #64
discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #68
ismnotwasm May 2019 #69
Hekate May 2019 #72
pdsimdars May 2019 #73
Locrian May 2019 #83
BeyondGeography May 2019 #85
Locrian May 2019 #111
ehrnst May 2019 #87
onenote May 2019 #171
StarfishSaver May 2019 #92
cwydro May 2019 #162
Gothmog May 2019 #74
Caliman73 May 2019 #76
guillaumeb May 2019 #78
Hekate May 2019 #105
guillaumeb May 2019 #108
StarfishSaver May 2019 #163
H2O Man May 2019 #90
dawn5651 May 2019 #93
wryter2000 May 2019 #94
Gothmog May 2019 #178
wryter2000 May 2019 #181
StarfishSaver May 2019 #95
cynatnite May 2019 #101
dlk May 2019 #107
StarfishSaver May 2019 #112
dlk May 2019 #123
TwilightZone May 2019 #132
cp May 2019 #109
Nuffer May 2019 #110
bonkers221 May 2019 #113
Indykatie May 2019 #114
NastyRiffraff May 2019 #115
betsuni May 2019 #118
corbettkroehler May 2019 #129
brer cat May 2019 #130
mia May 2019 #133
StarfishSaver May 2019 #134
malaise May 2019 #135
saidsimplesimon May 2019 #138
EffieBlack May 2019 #141
saidsimplesimon May 2019 #142
bitterross May 2019 #147
Drew Christ May 2019 #156
StarfishSaver May 2019 #159
CDerekGo May 2019 #174
BlueJac May 2019 #176

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:11 PM

1. Thanks. Legal process (as well as concepts generally) frustrate many,

which is too bad but predictable.

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Response to elleng (Reply #1)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:48 AM

30. Actually, this thread makes the case for impeachment hearings.

 

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Response to watoos (Reply #30)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:27 PM

100. Actually, as Nadler

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 02:32 PM - Edit history (1)

...explained last night in a local constituency meeting, the investigations going on and the subpoenas being issued are no different than an impeachment hearing.

The only difference is in the name. That is the only difference. He said this repeatedly.

He says if an impeachment is mounted it will fail because the Senate is a cult and will not vote for that.

Then you end up with the Dems looking weak and ineffective and Trump will go around strweeching "Innocent!" "With hunt!". Just like he screech-tweeted "Exonerated!" after the Mueller report. A failed impeachment will help Trump.

That said, I really do think the Dems need to do a hell of a lot more than create the legal paper trail, and scoldy letters. They need to do high-profile teach-ins in each of the red states explaining exactly what has happened and what's at stake. They need to do sit-in vigils on the floor of Congress in the name of every subpoena that is blown off so the American people become educated. That kind of thing.

They need to go waaay outside the box in these most abnormal of times. They need to get fierce.

The legal filings approach, by itself, is making them look weak in another way.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #100)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:38 PM

103. Interesting take

Also interesting that some people want to start impeachment proceedings because they think the legal filings approach makes them look weak - without seeming to realize that that an impeachment panel would have to use the same approach to compel testimony and documents and would have no stronger substantive case for them than they do now. As Adam Schiff said, "a subpoena's a subpoena."

But I am glad that someone has heard and reported that Nadler said virtually the same thing I've been saying!

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #103)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:36 PM

127. Legal simplicity is an oxymoron but

I suppose people will understand that even in a small claims court, if the plaintiff doesn't send a demand letter to the defendant, the case will be thrown out - no matter what the evidence is.

Paper trail and process are extremely important and the Democrats on the various committees, many of whom are lawyers themselves and assisted by $1500/hr lawyers, are making sure that the legal process is perfected.

It may be too slow or appear too weak for some but they need to read up on it.

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #127)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:25 PM

136. Right. But the Dems

....need to do both. As Nadler said, except in certain courts, Trump is running out the clock. Then where will we be?

On so many levels, we are running out of time.

Nadler also said most Americans do not understand what the Dems are doing. Therefore, in my mind the Dems need to do things outside of legal procedure that grabs headlines and teaches the country what is happening and why.

He said the Dems "fell asleep" in 2010<<--(his words) and lost to Repug voter suppression via gerrymandering.

And then in 2016---the damn electoral college in those three critical states that the DNC was not ready for.

Let's get more pro-active because the usual system is broken.





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Response to zentrum (Reply #100)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:20 PM

131. The Dems DO need to do more.

I agree completely. I understand & agree with EffieBlack's point. BUT, once the research has been done, the filings recorded, the letters sent...after they've dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's, they have to do more than stand around, wring their hands and cop the claim that they can't impeach because, as you said
it will fail because the Senate is a cult and will not vote for that.
That's what makes them look weak...knowing all the shit he's done, and copping out with "wait for the election, because we don't want to divide the country further.".

This is classroom management 101. You don't reward or ignore negative behavior, because it will only get worse.

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Response to WinstonSmith4740 (Reply #131)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:26 PM

137. Right On.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #100)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:38 PM

173. Actually, Nadler beseeched Pelosi last night to start an impeachment inquiry.

At least five members of Pelosi’s leadership team — four of whom also sit on the House Judiciary Committee, with jurisdiction over impeachment — pressed Pelosi (D-Calif.) in a closed-door leadership meeting to allow the panel to start an inquiry, which they argued would help investigators attain documents and testimony that Trump has blocked. Several hours later, Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler met with Pelosi as well and made the case to start the inquiry, he later told his panel member on a call. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pelosis-leadership-team-rebels-on-impeachment-presses-her-to-begin-an-inquiry/2019/05/20/263c11de-7b5b-11e9-a66c-d36e482aa873_story.html?utm_term=.52cd039b4afb

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #173)

Wed May 22, 2019, 03:01 PM

184. Not what he said to our faces

...on Sunday. As he was at pains to explain at the time. "Investigation" such as they are already doing and "Impeachment" are the same thing. All that changes is the name, he said.

Therefore I take his "beseachment" to mean he wants to expand investigations. A good investigation will lead to impeachment without ever having to invoke the word.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #184)

Wed May 22, 2019, 04:45 PM

185. Oversight hearings and impeachment investigation hearings are not the same thing.

Impeachment investigation hearings are by law judiciary proceedings, entitling the committee to secret grand jury information, i.e. all of Mueller's grand jury info, transcripts, etc.

Oversight hearings are not exempt from the rule of grand jury secrecy.

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Response to watoos (Reply #30)

Tue May 21, 2019, 02:42 PM

179. Not necessarily-this is from the judge's ruling in the accounting firm record case

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #179)

Tue May 21, 2019, 05:08 PM

183. The NBC news article in that tweet you cite shows it's time to start a formal impeachment inquiry.

Unlike the Senate Watergate Committee investigation, however, the current House Judiciary Committee investigation is not starting from scratch.

Mueller has produced an extensive report rich with details about Trump’s misdeeds. It contains multiple examples of the president’s repeated efforts to obstruct justice. This is a key issue being pursued by the current House Judiciary Committee — just as obstruction of justice was a central element in the Nixon impeachment proceeding.


In Watergate, the Senate did the investigation. With Trump, Mueller did the investigation. Mueller is now done. We are at the point in the process where the House in Watergate started formal impeachment invesitgation proceedings. We need to do the same.

Calling for a formal impeachment investigation hearing is not bashing Pelosi.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:13 PM

2. Thank you. There's a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking going on

by people who don't seem ever to have read the rulebook. It's sometimes kind of like, "There was a foot fault on the 30-yard line, so why the hell didn't the stupid ref invoke the infield fly rule??"

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #2)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:18 PM

4. Lol!

PERFECT analogy!

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #2)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:36 PM

9. Oh you...

😍

Yea-yes, Effie is spot on.

Folks blowing off steam, getting their frustrations out, letting them be known.

I'm quilty of 'Impeach Now'!11!1

[Remember Tom the Bugman DeLay? When found quilty, reported as such by the residents of Freeperville. Oh noes!! 😝]

I first signed up on chere in 2001. With another username. 'Twas all good. Now no speculatin' anyone...😁

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #9)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:49 AM

31. What does impeach now have to do with this thread?

 

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Tue May 21, 2019, 03:03 PM

180. Yeah, I realize I put that 'in quotes'. Not the movement funded

by Tom Steyer that I was referring to.

The cry for impeachment proceedings to be commenced 'now' by us who are up to here with frustration and enormous stress. That's all I meant.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:16 PM

3. Thanks, Effie!

You definitely speak for me on this!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:22 PM

5. Good to have you back, Effie.

Preach. Teach.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #5)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:23 PM

6. Awww

Good to be back, SheShe! (I think)


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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #6)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:28 PM

7. yep.

(I think)


I know.

Missed ya!



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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:28 PM

8. That's some of the best advice I've read on this site in a very long time.

and I'll seriously do my best to follow it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun May 19, 2019, 11:51 PM

10. Thank you for this post, Effie. I wish I could give it a thousand recs.



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Response to pnwmom (Reply #10)

Mon May 20, 2019, 03:11 AM

17. I did!...Well...Kinda...

...I gave Effie's post a 1.000 rec's in my "Comment Title"! ...And then I saw your post & saw we both were thinking same thing!

...Effie's post is SOOO important across everything in politics & LIFE to be honest! I served in the US Military straight out of HS in late 80s through to early/mid 90's. I joined being from a military family & I had no direction in life at that point! At that age I had no true concept of the horrors of war prior to joining BUT later after I had been in & the first Iraq War broke out, especially then when America had not been in a big conflict since Vietnam & I can't speak for everyone but it didn't scare my young 10 foot tall ignorant dumb male ass at the time but it woke my non-inquisitive 20yr old ass up to want to learn about the world & why things happen!! So, thankfully I was not exposed to the horrors of combat at the time but without a doubt serving during that time in close support of the mission in Iraq changed me! After getting out of the military I burning desire to understand US/Geo politics which was a good thing! What was NOT A GOOD THING & at the time I was an ignorant 22yr old kid & didn't know any better was it was the dawn of Right Wing talk radio! I was quickly sucked into Sean Hannity who was at the time just starting here in Atlanta & of course Rush Limbaugh! ...It makes me truly sick to admit it but it was true & the indoctrination was REAL!
THANK-FULLY...What saved me, and I'm not kidding, was I had always been an Atheist deep down since I was a child & realized my pantheon childhood gods Santa, Easter Bunny & Tooth Fairy were all make believe! So my child thinking at the time was "So the adult "God" has to be make believe as wel!"!! No adult influencing at all went into me thinking that & I always wonder why I stuck to thinking that even after being chastised for telling other kids! LOL! And being from the DEEP SOUTH there was quite a bit of adult influence to shake the HEATHEN out of me!
Anyway, I began to know, again DEEP DOWN, talk radio was misleading me about certain things especially all the lies they had me believing about Bill Clinton & the Media! However, over time things would play out & their lie would be exposed & they would never address it or give the typical BS excuse of LIBERAL MEDIA Conspiracy! But this was wearing thin over time along with the focus on religion, anti-gay & their obvious racist slant on things! However, I was having an internal battle with myself to admit my entire political worldview was wrong & that was really hard to overcome!
...I finally did & after I did IT FELT SO GOOD! What made it easy was reading Carl Sagan talking about how its OK to be wrong but once you see the overwhelming evidence then you change your mind & follow the evidence!! I TRY to do that now with everything & having that fling with talk radio earlier in life has made it so easy for me to try & seek out the facts from respectable sources even if it is not what I want hear & go where they take me!

Sorry for the long post...Can't sleep & Effie's post is so important & means a lot to me I thought I would share my story.

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #17)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:55 AM

33. 100+

For your life changes due to experience.

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #33)

Tue May 21, 2019, 07:33 AM

161. Thanks!

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #17)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:53 AM

65. SkyDaddy7, thanks so much for sharing your story! It is inspiring

to see how someone like you could go through that evolution in thought -- you're the proof that it is possible.

And never apologize for a long, positive, interesting post -- we need them to keep up morale.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Tue May 21, 2019, 07:30 AM

160. Thanks!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:17 AM

11. There are many roads to get to where we want to go. I am

dyslexic and have aha moments. Mostly they are hypothesis I can't test out immediately as I am online and in Canada. Do I put up the hypothesis or not? My role as a dyslexic is to take a wide scope in life and slowly, over minutes-hours-weeks-months and years get to a big picture in real life. That is my job. In the meantime I had a hypothesis. So I post my idea knowing it will be taken with a grain of salt and that the DU needs those of us to perceive things differently. I'm not always right. Sometimes i reinvent the wheel. But so are the real pundits on the tv. But sometimes I am right and novel.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:06 AM

12. it's chickenhawks. it's fucking amazing how many 'democrats' and 'liberals' criticize

their reps for not sticking their heads out but let their local rw radio station take free pot shots at them all day.

it's really fucking stupid.

like all those uni students complaining about obama not closing down gitmo and not voting because of it. fuck you. limbaugh was selling 'club gitmo' coffee mugs and bumper stickers on radio stations that their own universities were broadcasting sports on! how fucking stupid is that when it comes to doing your own research?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:22 AM

13. Thanks!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:51 AM

14. I have been wondering the following but am not a lawyer so I'll take advantage of

your post and pose this question to you: In addition to defending Roe based on medical privacy rights, has there ever been a challenge to a red state legislature's constitutional authority to enact such state laws? I have been reading the Alabama Constitution and there appears to be several applicable provisions that prohibit Alabama from enacting laws that do not benefit/affect everyone in Alabama. (Art. 1, Sec. 15) The abortion restriction law just passed by the Alabama legislature is silent as to the law’s benefit/affect on the population in Alabama that are men. Additionally, Art. 1, Sec. 35 states "That the sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression."

How does this recent abortion restriction passed by the Alabama legislature not function as usurpation and oppression of women?

How does this recent abortion restriction passed by the Alabama legislature comply with Sec. 35 of their Constitution?

By my reading there are several other provisions in the Alabama constitution that work to prohibit the Alabama legislature from making any challenge to Roe.

I am tired of asking permission from the males on the USSC about what I can and cannot do with my body. I am frustrated that the tables aren't being turned and these red state legislatures aren't being legally challenged to have to first justify their state constitutional authority to make any challenge to Roe.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:55 AM

15. I didn't know you were a lawyer, Effie.

I'm going to take advantage of this new knowledge just the one time, here and now. (I promise to do my best not to take advantage of your professional knowledge in the future.)

I've considered making an OP about this numerous times since the Mueller report came out but felt I would probably get mixed messages from others with as little knowledge as myself so I decided against it.

Regarding impeachment - and I'll change my Avatar if you think I should. When the House decides to impeach I understood it to mean they would begin with an investigation and questioning for as long as it was deemed necessary to make the decision to impeach or not. (From there the Senate would take over with their own hearings.)

I believed the House would gain significant power (super powers?) to hold public hearings, question witnesses and targets and issue subpeonas once it fell under an impeachment investigation.

It seemed to me that because of the power they would gain through impeachment investigations the House would bring more of the truth to the American people through public hearings.

Please, tell me where I'm wrong and how this actually works.

I would be so grateful to know the truth and not just my assumptions based on reading the internet.

Thank you in advance!
C-Z

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #15)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:39 AM

18. Lawrence Tribe, arguably the best Constitutional lawyer in the country, agrees with you.

As does Hillary Clinton. Both say we need to start impeachment investigation hearings. Tribe explains that, per case law, they are considered judicial proceedings that entitle the investigators to grand jury info. Mueller grand jury info is the bulk of the evidence Barr is refusing to turn over, citing grand jury secrecy requirements But judicial proceedings, like impeachment investigation proceedings, are an exception to that.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #18)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:16 AM

23. Tribe is correct that impeachment hearings are considered judicial proceedings

and that grand jury materials CAN be released to them.

But there is no REQUIREMENT that such materials be disclosed to an impeachment panel and, without Barr's cooperation, it will be difficult for any congressional panel to obtain them, whether it's for impeachment or a proceeding preliminary to it.

In short, opening an impeachment inquiry could possibly make it easier for Congress to obtain grand jury materials, but it won't guarantee it.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #23)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:54 AM

32. Nice to see you are coming around,

 

it's what I have been saying for months, impeachment hearings carry more clout with the courts than regular hearings.

I also remember Barr stating that he would release grand jury information for an impeachment hearing. Do I trust Barr? Hell no, but he said it. All of the good dirt is in the grand jury documents.

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Response to watoos (Reply #32)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:09 AM

38. You don't seem to have read my post

First, I'm not "coming around." I've been saying the same thing all along.

But don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say "impeachment hearings carry more clout with the courts than regular hearings" because I don't believe that to be true. "Clout" is not a legal term. It just means that something might have more influence with judge. And whether something has clout or not is a purely subjective assumption based on the discretion of an individual judge. It can't be predicted or mandated and, as such, carries little meaning. The fact that something COULD have more clout is a consideration, but it would be foolish to base a legal or legislative strategic decision based primarily on a belief that a particular action COULD have more clout.

As I said, Barr saying something means less than nothing, so it's ridiculous to give it any time or oxygen.

And since you haven't seen the grand jury materials, you have no idea whether "all of the good dirt" is in them or whether "all of the good dirt" is available only through them and not obtainable through any other means.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #38)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:40 AM

54. Amen!

 

I’m sick of being told how we need to shut up about Mueller possibly not being such a straight arrow
The same ppl who said Coney was a straight arrow along with Rosenstein and McCabe two pthets who turned out to not be straight arrows.

So to hear from all of the ‘legal experts ‘ here who have decided to be condescending to others who see it differently, how Mueller is just following rules blah blah is straight up stupid. They were wrong about them and there’s a darn good chance they’re wrong about Mueller too.

Heaven forbid we discuss real possibilities, it shatters the sweet narrative so many wish to believe in.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #38)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:14 PM

84. The grand jury materials contain the evidence supporting the Mueller Report.

We need those materials to prove Trump's impeachable offenses. Are you say we don't need those materials?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #84)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:30 PM

86. You don't know what the grand jury materials contain.

And no, I'm not saying we don't need them. I'm saying - AGAIN- that:

1) an impeachment inquiry won't guarantee Congress will get the materials

2) it may be possible to obtain the same information in other ways (for example by subpoenaing the grand jury witnesses to testify before Congress)

3) there are other issues besides the grand jury materials that must be considered when determining when to launch impeachment proceedings

I'm also saying that you are not an expert on any of this (and I'm not an expert on all of it, but I do know more than most laypeople) and you don't have all of the information, while the people who are making the decisions ARE either experts themselves or are being advised by the foremost experts on the topic, they know volumes more information than you do, so your continued insistence that you know better than they do and your persistent attempts to lecture those of us who clearly know more than you do simply highlights the fallacy of your arguments.

As Effie said, please go do some research before trying to explain the law to legal experts.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #86)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:27 PM

144. Your posts do not indicate you know more than me. Please drop the arrogance and insults.

You have been unable to cite any authority for your claim that regular oversight hearings carry the same ability to obtain secret grand jury information as formal impeachment investigation hearings.

I wish you were right, but all authority I have seen indicates you are not. Regular oversight hearings are not adjudicatory in nature, so they simply do not fall into that exception to the rule requiring grand jury testimony be kept secret.

Yes, people who are experts are advising Congress, like Lawrence Tribe and Hillary Clinton via their respective Op Eds. Hillary was actually an impeachment counsel. She is calling for formal impeachment investigation hearings. I hope they listen to her.

I have done my research. Yet when I cite it to you, you mock me for "posting excerpts." You don't distinguish any authority I (via Lawrence Tribe) cite. It seems to me you are the one who has not done their research.

You should know there are a LOT of lawyers on DU, and they don't go around telling people they're lawyers. The good lawyers don't brag about their backgrounds, or lord it over folks and derisively tell people they don't know what they're talking about. They let their posts speak for themselves, and are able to clearly and concisely discuss the law, not resort to insults.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #144)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:41 PM

146. You asked her for her legal bone fides and when she gives them to you, you accuse

her of bragging.

And you clearly don’t know as much as she does about the law - if you did, you’d at the very least understand how ridiculous it is to keep asking for a cite when the cite is the very rule you’re talking about but don’t seem to realize.

As I said, you need to just let it go before you dig yourself any deeper. I can’t imagine anyone reading your posts on this topic would take anything you have to say about any of this seriously.

I’m sure there are topics you’re very well-versed and even expert in that many people here know little about. Perhaps you could switch to one of those so we can benefit from your knowledge in another area. But your beating a dead horse trying to argue your uninformed version of the law with a legal expert is painful to watch.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #146)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:58 PM

149. Effie, I gave StarfishSaver the legal arguments/counsel presented by Hillary and Tribe.

StarfishSaver has not contradicted any of it. If her background is as she ckaims, it is striking that she could not cite me a singke case or statute to support her argument. She brags that she has more expertise than me and insults me by claiming that I don't know what I am talking about, but that is not a legal argument. It certainly doesn't work in front of a judge.

All I am saying is what Lawrence Tribe is saying and what Hillary is saying. Instead of directly addressing the law I cite, StarfishSaver and now you insult me. Unlike StarfishSaver, you've been here long enough to know I am not a troll and I don't post bullshit. And yet you are piling on, as if StarfishSaver needs rescuing. What is painful is folks who claim to be lawyers ignoring the law and resorting to personal attacks.

And lost in all this is the wisdom Hillary tried to impart on us in her WaPo Op Ed last month. Too bad nobody wanted to talk about that. I did my reasearch, weeks ago, and laid it all out in this thread. Seems to me I did exactly what you asked for.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #149)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:04 PM

150. Let it go, dear

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #150)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:06 PM

151. I'm not your "dear." nt

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #38)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:07 PM

96. Seems to me

There's plenty in the redacted report to incriminate Trump. Of course, Congress should be able to get the unredacted report, but I doubt they need it to build a case.

My problem with impeachment now is that it seems as if it should have a conclusion. I'm afraid we'd finish it before all the evidence of malfeasance is out. We haven't even begun to look into emoluments and money laundering.

If we impeach now and don't convict in the Senate, Trump can claim all the investigations are over and he was exonerated. We need to keep up the pressure until the 2020 election.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #96)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:19 PM

99. That's a huge concern

We have one shot and it has to be a big one. And Pelosi is no doubt determined to make sure that the day the impeachment inquiry is launched is the best day of the process and after that, everything goes downhill and ends with no conviction and no removal and only a small fraction of the evidence against Trump revealed, a public and media with no patience for more investigations (too late - you should have brought that up as part of the imeachment?) and demanding we move on - a year before the 2020 election.

Timing is everything.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #38)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:30 PM

116. +1000. (nt)

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #23)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:08 PM

82. Thank you for taking the time to read what I wrote.

Yes, there are no guarantees about anything. No doubt it will lead to litigation, even when we are clearly in the right under black letter law, like with the House demand for Trump's tax returns. And you never know what judge we'll get, or what SCOTUS will do. But shouldn't we place ourselves on firm legal footing in the inevitable court fight for these grand jury materials?

I agree with Hillary (and Lawrence Tribe, and Elizabeth Warren), we need to start formal impeachment investigation hearings.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #18)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:47 AM

55. Hillary Clinton said this:

 



President Trump’s former 2016 opponent Hillary Clinton warned Democrats against immediately starting to talk about impeachment after the release of special counsel Robert Mueller’s report.

Clinton wrote in the opinion piece in the Washington Post: “Our election was corrupted, our democracy assaulted, our sovereignty and security violated.”

But she said that lawmakers shouldn’t just jump to impeachment but should rather hold “substantive hearings” that build on the Mueller report and look to “fill in its gaps.”

Hillary Clinton on Tuesday backed Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) for her comment that impeaching President Trump "isn't worth it," saying the California lawmaker was chiefly concerned with putting "some points on the board" because of the "do-nothing" Republican-controlled Senate.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/440258-hillary-clinton-do-nothing-senate-has-become-a-hotbed-of-cynicism


Hillary Clinton says Nancy Pelosi is 'right to be cautious' on impeaching Trump
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-donald-trump-bit-concerned-impeachment/story?id=62554307



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Response to Nuggets (Reply #55)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:26 AM

60. :) Thanks for posting. That invaluable "research" thing...

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #55)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:43 AM

77. Did you read Hillary's Op Ed? She called for formal impeachment investigation hearings.

You appear to be confusing impeachment investigation hearings with a vote on articles of impeachment. I am not calling for a vote on articles of impeachment right now, nor did I say that is what Hillary is calling for. Hillary is calling for formal impeachment investigation hearings:

Watergate offers a better precedent. Then, as now, there was an investigation that found evidence of corruption and a coverup. It was complemented by public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee, which insisted that executive privilege could not be used to shield criminal conduct and compelled White House aides to testify. The televised hearings added to the factual record and, crucially, helped the public understand the facts in a way that no dense legal report could. Similar hearings with Mueller, former White House counsel Donald McGahn and other key witnesses could do the same today.

During Watergate, the House Judiciary Committee also began a formal impeachment inquiry that was led by John Doar, a widely respected former Justice Department official and hero of the civil rights struggle. He was determined to run a process that the public and history would judge as fair and thorough, no matter the outcome. If today’s House proceeds to an impeachment inquiry, I hope it will find someone as distinguished and principled as Doar to lead it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?utm_term=.108a5648959e

Hillary should know, she was there. The process started with a formal House Resolution: "An impeachment process against Richard Nixon was formally initiated on February 6, 1974, when the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution, H.Res. 803, giving its Judiciary Committee authority to investigate whether sufficient grounds existed to impeach Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States of high crimes and misdemeanors, primarily related to the Watergate scandal....The Judiciary Committee set up a staff, the Impeachment Inquiry staff, to handle looking into the charges, that was separate from its regular Permanent staff. Based upon the recommendations of many in the legal community, John Doar, a well-known civil rights attorney in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who was a long-time Republican turned Independent, was hired by Rodino in December 1973 to be the lead special counsel for the Impeachment Inquiry staff. Doar shared with Rodino a view that the Senate hearings had gone overboard with leaked revelations and witnesses compelled to testify under immunity grants; they were determined to do things in a more thorough and objective process." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

That is what we need to do now.

I am sure Hillary knows regular oversight hearings do not give authority to Congress to obtain Mueller's grand jury info, only formal impeachment proceedings can do that.

As Lawrence Tribe stated in the Washington Post:

The uncertain prospect that the House Judiciary Committee will receive the raw, unredacted report generated by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III got even less certain Friday. A decision by the federal court of appeals in Washington now confronts the House leadership and Attorney General William P. Barr with some difficult political choices.

In a 2-to-1 decision in McKeever v. Barr, the court reaffirmed the principle of grand jury secrecy and concluded that a court has no “inherent power” to release grand jury information. This decision will give Barr a plausible basis to resist the Judiciary Committee’s subpoena of the entire Mueller report, even if the committee goes to court to enforce it. But both the House and the attorney general have ways to cope with this obstacle, if they have the political will and the professional judgment to do so.

In McKeever, two Republican appointees, including President Trump’s former deputy White House counsel, concluded that grand jury information must remain confidential unless a request for disclosure falls within one of the narrow exceptions listed in the federal rules of criminal procedure. The court refused to allow the disclosure of grand jury proceedings relating to the 1957 indictment of an FBI agent suspected of conspiring with the regime of Dominican Republic dictator Rafael Trujillo to kidnap and murder an outspoken critic. Even though all the witnesses and principals died long ago, the court concluded that a historian writing a book about the incident could not get access to the grand jury proceedings.

In the face of Barr’s decision not to disclose any of the Mueller report to the public or even to the House Judiciary Committee chaired by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D- N.Y.) until Barr and his team have scrubbed the report of grand jury information (and other material), Nadler and committee Democrats have authorized a subpoena for the full report, setting the stage for a court fight over the committee’s right to see grand jury information. Although the public need underlying the request for disclosure in McKeever was much less pressing, the decision in that case undermines the position of Nadler’s committee, because the controlling federal rule contains no exception allowing congressional “oversight” committees to demand access to otherwise secret grand jury proceedings.

One of the exceptions to grand jury secrecy is disclosure “preliminary to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.” To authorize disclosure of the Watergate grand jury information, the special prosecutor’s office argued that the House had authorized its Judiciary Committee to conduct a formal impeachment inquiry and that such an inquiry could be fairly analogized to a “grand jury” investigation and thus a judicial proceeding. Both the district court and the court of appeals agreed, and the Judiciary Committee obtained both the report and the underlying evidence.

Significantly, the appeals court decision several days ago reaffirmed that exception. All three judges agreed that an impeachment inquiry falls within the “exception for judicial proceedings” and “coheres” with other rulings about the proper scope of grand jury secrecy.

But Pelosi has declined to allow the Judiciary Committee to open even a preliminary impeachment inquiry, asserting rather bizarrely that Trump is “not worth it.” That decision may hamstring Nadler’s quest for the complete Mueller report. Nothing in the federal rules creates an explicit exception allowing congressional committees exercising general powers of government “oversight” to demand access to secret grand jury material. So, Pelosi and Nadler are confronting a dilemma of their own making: either revisit the politically fraught impeachment question or concede that the House is at the mercy of whatever judgment the attorney general makes in excising grand jury information, which may include the most salient material about possible collusion and obstruction of justice.

For his part, Barr also has delicate judgments to make. If he is so inclined, the attorney general could properly opt to exclude only the names and actual testimony of grand jury witnesses while nevertheless informing the Judiciary Committee — and the public — about the substance of the information developed during the proceedings. Unfortunately, Barr has given every indication that he intends to make needlessly sweeping redactions, especially having ruled that, in his judgment, the evidence of obstruction of justice did not rise to the level of a prosecutable crime. Trump’s selection of his new attorney general may prove to be his best line of defense — unless Pelosi revisits her stance and directs the House Judiciary Committee to include impeachment within its investigatory ambit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-full-mueller-report-could-be-released--if-the-house-opens-impeachment-hearings/2019/04/08/e47fff42-5a14-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html

Not only would trying to recreate the grand jury testimony be time-consuming and wasteful in a regular oversight hearing, now that the White House has ordered all Trump aides, including McGahn, to not respond to Congressional subpoenas, it will be next to impossible to do it in light of case law. But not if it is a formal impeachment investigation hearing. That is why we must go this route, and do it immediately.

So, you don't have to believe me, just listen to Hillary Clinton and Lawrence Tribe.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #77)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:48 AM

79. I literally posted what she said

 

with links provided. They are from the end of April 2019, and she didn’t say start impeachment hearings, she stated Pelosi was right to wait.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #79)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:00 PM

81. No, Hillary nowhere says Pelosi was "right to wait." You made that up.

She said Pelosi has a right to be cautious, but not that she should "wait." I suggest you reread Hill article you cited, despite it's misleading headline. What Hillary is actually quoted as saying is that we "need" to go to the process employed against Nixon, namely impeachment investigation hearings:

I think Nancy is right to be cautious about making sure whatever is done in this Congress is more in accord with the very careful approach of 1973 and '4," Clinton said while speaking at the Time 100 Summit.
...
So, the House needs to put some points on the board, and that happened during Watergate," Clinton said, referring to the buildup of impeachment proceedings against Nixon in 1973 and 1974.


Agsin, did you read Hillary's WaPo Op Ed?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #81)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:54 PM

153. I made it up now?

 

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says she agrees with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi 's methodic approach to some Democrats' calls to impeach President Donald Trump following the release of special counsel Robert Mueller's report on Russian meddling during the 2016 presidential campaign to members of Congress.

Clinton, who is also a former senator, said Pelosi is “right to be cautious” about impeaching Trump, saying impeachment “shouldn’t be a preordained conclusion” based on “partisan political purposes.”

But she said that lawmakers shouldn’t just jump to impeachment but should rather hold “substantive hearings” that build on the Mueller report and look to “fill in its gaps.”

Hillary Clinton on Tuesday backed Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) for her comment that impeaching President Trump "isn't worth it," saying the California lawmaker was chiefly concerned with putting "some points on the board" because of the "do-nothing" Republican-controlled Senate.



From the links I posted.


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Response to Nuggets (Reply #153)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:00 PM

154. Yes. Saying Pelosi has the right to be cautious is NOT the same as saying Pelosi should wait.

Especially considering what Hillary explicitly said in her Op Ed.

OF COURSE impeachment should not be a pre-ordained conclusion. We should not go straight to a vote on articles of impeachment, like the GOP did with Clinton. That is why we should do a formal impeachment investigation hearing FIRST, like we did in Watergate, as Hillary calls for in her Op Ed. You are ignoring Hillary's Op Ed and relying on out of context snippets. And in NONE of those snippets is the word "wait."

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #154)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:21 PM

155. Saying

 



Pelosi has the right to be cautious is NOT the same as saying Pelosi should wait.”


Neat editing...

She also said...

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says she agrees with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi 's methodic approach to some Democrats' calls to impeach President Donald Trump following the release of special counsel Robert Mueller's report


Which means the exact same thing as Pelosi should wait. You want to play games with meaning now?

And again this:
But she said that lawmakers shouldn’t just jump to impeachment but should rather hold “substantive hearings” that build on the Mueller report and look to “fill in its gaps.”



Hillary Clinton on Tuesday backed Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) for her comment that impeaching President Trump "isn't worth it," saying the California lawmaker was chiefly concerned with putting "some points on the board" because of the "do-nothing" Republican-controlled Senate.

Her exact quotes the entire quote not your cherry picked parts.

Can you read? Maybe you’re too tired to grasp her quote?

I don’t know, but she clearly said she agrees Pelosi and to wait. If she agrees with Pelosi then she does not agree that Dems should start the impeachment process. Pelosi explained why she didn’t want to start the process.




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Response to Nuggets (Reply #155)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:29 AM

157. "Can you read? Maybe you're too tired to grasp her quote?" Why yes, Nugget. I can read.

I can read even better than you can insult.

You essentially admit Hillary never actually stated "Pelosi should wait." Instead, you argue that is what she "meant." No she didn't.

The substantive hearings she is referring to as needing to be held are formal impeachment investigation hearings. She is obviously not referring to regular oversight hearings, since those are already being held.

Read Hillary's Op Ed. It explains the hearings she would like the House Committee to hold:

Watergate offers a better precedent. Then, as now, there was an investigation that found evidence of corruption and a coverup. It was complemented by public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee, which insisted that executive privilege could not be used to shield criminal conduct and compelled White House aides to testify. The televised hearings added to the factual record and, crucially, helped the public understand the facts in a way that no dense legal report could. Similar hearings with Mueller, former White House counsel Donald McGahn and other key witnesses could do the same today.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?utm_term=.108a5648959e

The "Watergate precedent" Hillary is referring to is a process started with a formal House Resolution. An impeachment process against Richard Nixon was formally initiated on February 6, 1974, when the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution, H.Res. 803, giving its Judiciary Committee authority to investigate whether sufficient grounds existed to impeach Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States of high crimes and misdemeanors, primarily related to the Watergate scandal.

We need an impeachment inquiry, i.e. a formal resolution setting up impeachment investigation hearings, like the one we had in Watergate. That is what Hillary is saying, that is what I am saying.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #157)

Tue May 21, 2019, 07:08 AM

158. No. The "Watergate precedent" Hillary is referring to DID NOT start with a House resolution

That process occurred in the Senate in May 1973. There were weeks of public hearings that included John Dean's testimony and revelation of the White House tapes. This led to the Saturday Night Massacre in October and other activities that turned the country against Richard Nixon. The House had nothing to do with any of this.

In February 1974, the House passed a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry. The first hearing was held in May of that year, nearly a year after the Senate hearings began and several months after they wrapped up.

Now, with those facts in mind (facts that you could have easily obtained yourself), reread the quote from Hillary that you cited and you will see that she was NOT talking about the House impeachment hearings or impeachment inquiry, but she was expressly describing the hearings and proceedings of the Senate Select Committee on Watergate (and not just because she said "public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee".)

Watergate offers a better precedent. Then, as now, there was an investigation that found evidence of corruption and a coverup. It was complemented by public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee, which insisted that executive privilege could not be used to shield criminal conduct and compelled White House aides to testify. The televised hearings added to the factual record and, crucially, helped the public understand the facts in a way that no dense legal report could. Similar hearings with Mueller, former White House counsel Donald McGahn and other key witnesses could do the same today.


As Effie said, you should do some research before posting. It would help keep you from consistently posting false information, which I assume you don't want to do.



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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #158)

Tue May 21, 2019, 10:25 AM

165. I've done my research. You're citing it.

You and your friend Effie just disagree with me. That is no reason to be disagreeable.

There were certainly differences with how the investigation of the facts started with Watergate. They had the Senate investigation. We had the Mueller Report.

But it is now time to get a formal impeachment inquiry started in the House, like Pelosi's leadership and Nadler are urging her to do.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #79)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:16 PM

143. She stated this in an interview with Rachel. Why is anyone contesting what you have repeated?

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #143)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:09 PM

152. Hillary did not say Pelosi should "wait." That claim is made up.

I watched her interview with Rachel. She never said that.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #152)

Tue May 21, 2019, 10:24 AM

164. You just don't understand.

 

“The substantive hearings she is referring to as needing to be held are formal impeachment investigation hearings. She is obviously not referring to regular oversight hearings, since those are already being held. “



No they are not. That’s not what she’s saying.

In 1974 the House passed a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry.

A top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee has filed a "resolution of inquiry" into President Donald J. Trump. It can be considered a step toward the impeachment process because of the information sought in this case. The last time a resolution of inquiry was considered on the House floor was in 1995, against then-President Bill Clinton related to financial aid for Mexico.

What's a resolution of inquiry?
According to official rules, the Judiciary Committee must respond to the resolution of inquiry within 14 legislative days, or Congressional workdays. The committee can either report the resolution favorably, reject it, or revise it. If it chooses not to act within that time period, Congressman Nadler could request that the resolution be discharged (meaning it gets pulled out of committee) so that the House as a whole can then vote on it.

Is Trump being impeached?
No. The resolution of inquiry only seeks information from the executive branch. Depending on the information uncovered by the inquiry, it could lead to broader calls for impeachment.
Nadler is seeking information related to investigations of Trump, his associates, his foreign business interests, and conflict of interest laws such as the emoluments clause of the Constitution.

https://www.countable.us/articles/237-preliminary-impeachment-inquiry-filed-president-trump
 







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Response to Nuggets (Reply #164)

Tue May 21, 2019, 10:34 AM

166. You're citing a March 2017 article. Nadler now is urging Pelosi for an impeachment inquiry.

At least five members of Pelosi’s leadership team — four of whom also sit on the House Judiciary Committee, with jurisdiction over impeachment — pressed Pelosi (D-Calif.) in a closed-door leadership meeting to allow the panel to start an inquiry, which they argued would help investigators attain documents and testimony that Trump has blocked. Several hours later, Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler met with Pelosi as well and made the case to start the inquiry, he later told his panel member on a call. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pelosis-leadership-team-rebels-on-impeachment-presses-her-to-begin-an-inquiry/2019/05/20/263c11de-7b5b-11e9-a66c-d36e482aa873_story.html?utm_term=.52cd039b4afb

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #166)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:01 AM

167. Yep

 

to explain what HC is talking about. Learning by looking at another example.


It is irrelevant if Nadler is pushing for impeachment today.
The premise was that HC called for formal impeachment investigation. Inquiry =an official investigation.

Resolution of inquiry is a step towards the impeachment process. It isn’t initiating the impeachment process it’s looking into whether we should.

And again,

Pelosi said: “While our views Range from proceeding to investigate the finding of the Mueller report we’re proceeding directly to impeachment we all firmly agree that we should proceed down a path of finding the truth.”

AND
Hillary Clinton said:

“I think what Nancy means, and I agree with what she means, is that it shouldn’t be a pre-ordained conclusion....


“Nonetheless. Congress must investigate and examine evidence as objectively as possible before deciding to move ahead with impeachment” I think Nancy is right to be cautious about making sure whatever is done in this Congress is in more accord in the very careful approach of 1973 and 74.”



Obviously then, Pelosi is doing what Hillary Clinton thinks should be done. Thus the agreement with Pelosi’s approach.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #167)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:39 AM

168. I do understand. You're confusing impeachment with impeachment inquiry.

As Hillary said in her Op Ed, the options are not just a vote on articles of impeachment or nothing:

"The debate about how to respond to Russia's sweeping and systematic" attack--and how to hold President Trump accountable for obstructing the investigation and possibly breaking the law--has been reduced to a false choice: immediate impeachment or nothing. History suggests there's a better way to think about the choices ahead." https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?outputType=amp

Then she describes that history, namely the Watergate impeachment inquiry process of holding formal impeachment investigation hearings, managed expertly by Doar. That is the "better way." She is talking about. If she was fine with the way we are handling things now (regular oversight hearings), she would not have written that Op Ed.

We are obviously not ready to vote on articles impeachment, which is what "impeachment" is generally understood to be. But impeachment is actually a process. It starts with an impeachment inquiry that may or may not lead to impeachment, depending on what is found in the inquiry. Of course it should not be a "pre-ordained conclusion." Only after an impeachment inquiry should the House then move on to impeachment. That is what Hillary was talking about.

Hillary talks about it in a way to sound supportive of Pelosi, while still urging a new course of action. In other words, she was disagreeing without being disagreeable. That appears to be a foreign concept to you.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #168)

Tue May 21, 2019, 11:58 AM

169. Baloney

 

She never says formal impeachment hearings. Its been explained to you by me and another poster. They even gave you dates.


She said she agreed with Pelosi.

Is that really that difficult to comprehend?


You made this up:
“Hillary talks about it in a way to sound supportive of Pelosi, while still urging a new course of action. In other words, she was disagreeing without being disagreeable.”
That appears to be a foreign concept to you.


She said she agreed with Pelosi, I’ll take her word for it, not your interpretive spin.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #169)

Tue May 21, 2019, 12:06 PM

170. Hillary described the Watergate impeachment process under Doar.

Those were formal impeachment investigation hearings.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #170)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:29 PM

172. Below is a clear explanation of the process used during Watergate that's been posted before for you.

 


Looks like I did confuse terms...but I’m correct about the process and what HC has said.
Please stop spreading the rumor that initiating impeachment process is what HC wants.
If it were she wouldn’t say she agrees with what Pelosi is doing.

No. The "Watergate precedent" Hillary is referring to DID NOT start with a House resolution
That process occurred in the Senate in May 1973. There were weeks of public hearings that included John Dean's testimony and revelation of the White House tapes. This led to the Saturday Night Massacre in October and other activities that turned the country against Richard Nixon. The House had nothing to do with any of this.

In February 1974, the House passed a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry. The first hearing was held in May of that year, nearly a year after the Senate hearings began and several months after they wrapped up.

Now, with those facts in mind (facts that you could have easily obtained yourself), reread the quote from Hillary that you cited and you will see that she was NOT talking about the House impeachment hearings or impeachment inquiry, but she was expressly describing the hearings and proceedings of the Senate Select Committee on Watergate (and not just because she said "public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee".)

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #172)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:52 PM

175. I've already read that StarfishSaver post elsewhere in this thread.

And responded to it (Post 165).

There were certainly differences with how the investigation of the facts started with Watergate. They had the Senate investigation. We had the Mueller Report. 

I am not spreading a "rumor," I am quoting Hillary's Op Ed, which I highly recommend you read. https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?outputType=amp

It is now time to get a formal impeachment inquiry started in the House, like Pelosi's leadership and Nadler are urging her to do.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pelosis-leadership-team-rebels-on-impeachment-presses-her-to-begin-an-inquiry/2019/05/20/263c11de-7b5b-11e9-a66c-d36e482aa873_story.html?utm_term=.52cd039b4afb

That is the "better way" Hillary said in her Op Ed that "history shows."

If you want StarfishSaver to be your proxy, that is up to you. I guess our conversation here is done.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #175)

Tue May 21, 2019, 02:10 PM

177. I've already read it.

 

She’s not asking for starting the impeachment process. She has stated she agrees with Pelosi.

That’s all I need. You interpreted it the way you wanted and say she’s just putting up a front but really wants the opposite action. HCs words explicitly say she’s behind Pelosi, as am I.

I seriously doubt she meant just the opposite of what she said. She’s never been afraid to go against the grain.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #177)

Tue May 21, 2019, 03:46 PM

182. Hillary does not even mention Pelosi in her Op Ed, let alone say she "agrees with Pelosi."

I am not "interpreting" anything.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #18)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:02 AM

56. Hillary Clinton DIDN'T say anything of the kind.

Please see Nugget’s comprehensive takedown of your false claim: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212111035#post55

It’s bad enough that you consistently make up the law, but now you’re making up your own facts.

Fortunately, I and several other people here know better and won’t let you get away with such sloppy and irresponsible tactics.

But your off-base posts do serve a valuable purpose: You are Exhibit A of the point of my OP

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #56)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:27 AM

61. "Exhibit A of the point of my OP." Strikingly.



Thanks for the OP, Effie.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #61)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:48 AM

80. I have done my research. I posted my research weeks ago.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2307737

Hillary is calling for formal impeachment investigation hearings:

Watergate offers a better precedent. Then, as now, there was an investigation that found evidence of corruption and a coverup. It was complemented by public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee, which insisted that executive privilege could not be used to shield criminal conduct and compelled White House aides to testify. The televised hearings added to the factual record and, crucially, helped the public understand the facts in a way that no dense legal report could. Similar hearings with Mueller, former White House counsel Donald McGahn and other key witnesses could do the same today.

During Watergate, the House Judiciary Committee also began a formal impeachment inquiry that was led by John Doar, a widely respected former Justice Department official and hero of the civil rights struggle. He was determined to run a process that the public and history would judge as fair and thorough, no matter the outcome. If today’s House proceeds to an impeachment inquiry, I hope it will find someone as distinguished and principled as Doar to lead it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?utm_term=.108a5648959e

Hillary should know, she was there. The process started with a formal House Resolution: "An impeachment process against Richard Nixon was formally initiated on February 6, 1974, when the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution, H.Res. 803, giving its Judiciary Committee authority to investigate whether sufficient grounds existed to impeach Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States of high crimes and misdemeanors, primarily related to the Watergate scandal....The Judiciary Committee set up a staff, the Impeachment Inquiry staff, to handle looking into the charges, that was separate from its regular Permanent staff. Based upon the recommendations of many in the legal community, John Doar, a well-known civil rights attorney in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who was a long-time Republican turned Independent, was hired by Rodino in December 1973 to be the lead special counsel for the Impeachment Inquiry staff. Doar shared with Rodino a view that the Senate hearings had gone overboard with leaked revelations and witnesses compelled to testify under immunity grants; they were determined to do things in a more thorough and objective process." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

That is what we need to do now.

I am sure Hillary knows regular oversight hearings do not give authority to Congress to obtain Mueller's grand jury info, only formal impeachment proceedings can do that.

As Lawrence Tribe stated in the Washington Post:

The uncertain prospect that the House Judiciary Committee will receive the raw, unredacted report generated by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III got even less certain Friday. A decision by the federal court of appeals in Washington now confronts the House leadership and Attorney General William P. Barr with some difficult political choices.

In a 2-to-1 decision in McKeever v. Barr, the court reaffirmed the principle of grand jury secrecy and concluded that a court has no “inherent power” to release grand jury information. This decision will give Barr a plausible basis to resist the Judiciary Committee’s subpoena of the entire Mueller report, even if the committee goes to court to enforce it. But both the House and the attorney general have ways to cope with this obstacle, if they have the political will and the professional judgment to do so.

In McKeever, two Republican appointees, including President Trump’s former deputy White House counsel, concluded that grand jury information must remain confidential unless a request for disclosure falls within one of the narrow exceptions listed in the federal rules of criminal procedure. The court refused to allow the disclosure of grand jury proceedings relating to the 1957 indictment of an FBI agent suspected of conspiring with the regime of Dominican Republic dictator Rafael Trujillo to kidnap and murder an outspoken critic. Even though all the witnesses and principals died long ago, the court concluded that a historian writing a book about the incident could not get access to the grand jury proceedings.

In the face of Barr’s decision not to disclose any of the Mueller report to the public or even to the House Judiciary Committee chaired by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D- N.Y.) until Barr and his team have scrubbed the report of grand jury information (and other material), Nadler and committee Democrats have authorized a subpoena for the full report, setting the stage for a court fight over the committee’s right to see grand jury information. Although the public need underlying the request for disclosure in McKeever was much less pressing, the decision in that case undermines the position of Nadler’s committee, because the controlling federal rule contains no exception allowing congressional “oversight” committees to demand access to otherwise secret grand jury proceedings.

One of the exceptions to grand jury secrecy is disclosure “preliminary to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.” To authorize disclosure of the Watergate grand jury information, the special prosecutor’s office argued that the House had authorized its Judiciary Committee to conduct a formal impeachment inquiry and that such an inquiry could be fairly analogized to a “grand jury” investigation and thus a judicial proceeding. Both the district court and the court of appeals agreed, and the Judiciary Committee obtained both the report and the underlying evidence.

Significantly, the appeals court decision several days ago reaffirmed that exception. All three judges agreed that an impeachment inquiry falls within the “exception for judicial proceedings” and “coheres” with other rulings about the proper scope of grand jury secrecy.

But Pelosi has declined to allow the Judiciary Committee to open even a preliminary impeachment inquiry, asserting rather bizarrely that Trump is “not worth it.” That decision may hamstring Nadler’s quest for the complete Mueller report. Nothing in the federal rules creates an explicit exception allowing congressional committees exercising general powers of government “oversight” to demand access to secret grand jury material. So, Pelosi and Nadler are confronting a dilemma of their own making: either revisit the politically fraught impeachment question or concede that the House is at the mercy of whatever judgment the attorney general makes in excising grand jury information, which may include the most salient material about possible collusion and obstruction of justice.

For his part, Barr also has delicate judgments to make. If he is so inclined, the attorney general could properly opt to exclude only the names and actual testimony of grand jury witnesses while nevertheless informing the Judiciary Committee — and the public — about the substance of the information developed during the proceedings. Unfortunately, Barr has given every indication that he intends to make needlessly sweeping redactions, especially having ruled that, in his judgment, the evidence of obstruction of justice did not rise to the level of a prosecutable crime. Trump’s selection of his new attorney general may prove to be his best line of defense — unless Pelosi revisits her stance and directs the House Judiciary Committee to include impeachment within its investigatory ambit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-full-mueller-report-could-be-released--if-the-house-opens-impeachment-hearings/2019/04/08/e47fff42-5a14-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html

Not only would trying to recreate the grand jury testimony be time-consuming and wasteful in a regular oversight hearing, now that the White House has ordered all Trump aides, including McGahn, to not respond to Congressional subpoenas, it will be next to impossible to do it in light of case law. But not if it is a formal impeachment investigation hearing. That is why we must go this route, and do it immediately.

So, you don't have to believe me, just listen to Hillary Clinton and Lawrence Tribe.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #80)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:32 PM

88. This is sounding more like petty factional squabbling over how

much Hillary did or did not call for necessary investigation before proceeding than anything substantive.

Let's face it, DU currently has one group hostile to the decisions of our Democratic congressional leaders and one supportive. (And of course big numbers refusing to "get into it" with either.)

It started with someone whose name is associated with the first faction calling for factual posting, some from the other leaped in, both produced transcript, and how it's degenerated into squabbling over how to interpret or spin it.

Moving on.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #88)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:41 PM

89. I am not "squabbling" with anyone. I am stating the law and what our leaders actually said.

What Hillary actually said is important. We should be following her advice.

Instead, I am being insulted for my troubles, being accused of "advocating for Barr" and not knowing what I'm talking about. SMH

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #89)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:48 PM

91. Perhaps you're not. But I'm going going over

her op-ed with a fine-tooth comb trying to find out if her lengthy explanation of the situation itself somehow benefits one "school of thought" or the other.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #56)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:36 AM

75. Yes, Hillary did call for impeachment investigation hearings.

Hillary is calling for formal impeachment investigation hearings:

Watergate offers a better precedent. Then, as now, there was an investigation that found evidence of corruption and a coverup. It was complemented by public hearings conducted by a Senate select committee, which insisted that executive privilege could not be used to shield criminal conduct and compelled White House aides to testify. The televised hearings added to the factual record and, crucially, helped the public understand the facts in a way that no dense legal report could. Similar hearings with Mueller, former White House counsel Donald McGahn and other key witnesses could do the same today.

During Watergate, the House Judiciary Committee also began a formal impeachment inquiry that was led by John Doar, a widely respected former Justice Department official and hero of the civil rights struggle. He was determined to run a process that the public and history would judge as fair and thorough, no matter the outcome. If today’s House proceeds to an impeachment inquiry, I hope it will find someone as distinguished and principled as Doar to lead it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?utm_term=.108a5648959e

Hillary should know, she was there. The process started with a formal House Resolution: "An impeachment process against Richard Nixon was formally initiated on February 6, 1974, when the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution, H.Res. 803, giving its Judiciary Committee authority to investigate whether sufficient grounds existed to impeach Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States of high crimes and misdemeanors, primarily related to the Watergate scandal....The Judiciary Committee set up a staff, the Impeachment Inquiry staff, to handle looking into the charges, that was separate from its regular Permanent staff. Based upon the recommendations of many in the legal community, John Doar, a well-known civil rights attorney in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who was a long-time Republican turned Independent, was hired by Rodino in December 1973 to be the lead special counsel for the Impeachment Inquiry staff. Doar shared with Rodino a view that the Senate hearings had gone overboard with leaked revelations and witnesses compelled to testify under immunity grants; they were determined to do things in a more thorough and objective process." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

That is what we need to do now.

I am sure Hillary knows regular oversight hearings do not give authority to Congress to obtain Mueller's grand jury info, only formal impeachment proceedings can do that.

As Lawrence Tribe stated in the Washington Post:

The uncertain prospect that the House Judiciary Committee will receive the raw, unredacted report generated by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III got even less certain Friday. A decision by the federal court of appeals in Washington now confronts the House leadership and Attorney General William P. Barr with some difficult political choices.

In a 2-to-1 decision in McKeever v. Barr, the court reaffirmed the principle of grand jury secrecy and concluded that a court has no “inherent power” to release grand jury information. This decision will give Barr a plausible basis to resist the Judiciary Committee’s subpoena of the entire Mueller report, even if the committee goes to court to enforce it. But both the House and the attorney general have ways to cope with this obstacle, if they have the political will and the professional judgment to do so.

In McKeever, two Republican appointees, including President Trump’s former deputy White House counsel, concluded that grand jury information must remain confidential unless a request for disclosure falls within one of the narrow exceptions listed in the federal rules of criminal procedure. The court refused to allow the disclosure of grand jury proceedings relating to the 1957 indictment of an FBI agent suspected of conspiring with the regime of Dominican Republic dictator Rafael Trujillo to kidnap and murder an outspoken critic. Even though all the witnesses and principals died long ago, the court concluded that a historian writing a book about the incident could not get access to the grand jury proceedings.

In the face of Barr’s decision not to disclose any of the Mueller report to the public or even to the House Judiciary Committee chaired by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D- N.Y.) until Barr and his team have scrubbed the report of grand jury information (and other material), Nadler and committee Democrats have authorized a subpoena for the full report, setting the stage for a court fight over the committee’s right to see grand jury information. Although the public need underlying the request for disclosure in McKeever was much less pressing, the decision in that case undermines the position of Nadler’s committee, because the controlling federal rule contains no exception allowing congressional “oversight” committees to demand access to otherwise secret grand jury proceedings.

One of the exceptions to grand jury secrecy is disclosure “preliminary to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.” To authorize disclosure of the Watergate grand jury information, the special prosecutor’s office argued that the House had authorized its Judiciary Committee to conduct a formal impeachment inquiry and that such an inquiry could be fairly analogized to a “grand jury” investigation and thus a judicial proceeding. Both the district court and the court of appeals agreed, and the Judiciary Committee obtained both the report and the underlying evidence.

Significantly, the appeals court decision several days ago reaffirmed that exception. All three judges agreed that an impeachment inquiry falls within the “exception for judicial proceedings” and “coheres” with other rulings about the proper scope of grand jury secrecy.

But Pelosi has declined to allow the Judiciary Committee to open even a preliminary impeachment inquiry, asserting rather bizarrely that Trump is “not worth it.” That decision may hamstring Nadler’s quest for the complete Mueller report. Nothing in the federal rules creates an explicit exception allowing congressional committees exercising general powers of government “oversight” to demand access to secret grand jury material. So, Pelosi and Nadler are confronting a dilemma of their own making: either revisit the politically fraught impeachment question or concede that the House is at the mercy of whatever judgment the attorney general makes in excising grand jury information, which may include the most salient material about possible collusion and obstruction of justice.

For his part, Barr also has delicate judgments to make. If he is so inclined, the attorney general could properly opt to exclude only the names and actual testimony of grand jury witnesses while nevertheless informing the Judiciary Committee — and the public — about the substance of the information developed during the proceedings. Unfortunately, Barr has given every indication that he intends to make needlessly sweeping redactions, especially having ruled that, in his judgment, the evidence of obstruction of justice did not rise to the level of a prosecutable crime. Trump’s selection of his new attorney general may prove to be his best line of defense — unless Pelosi revisits her stance and directs the House Judiciary Committee to include impeachment within its investigatory ambit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-full-mueller-report-could-be-released--if-the-house-opens-impeachment-hearings/2019/04/08/e47fff42-5a14-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html

Not only would trying to recreate the grand jury testimony be time-consuming and wasteful in a regular oversight hearing, now that the White House has ordered all Trump aides, including McGahn, to not respond to Congressional subpoenas, it will be next to impossible to do it in light of case law. But not if it is a formal impeachment investigation hearing. That is why we must go this route, and do it immediately.

So, you don't have to believe me, just listen to Hillary Clinton and Lawrence Tribe.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #15)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:10 AM

19. Anyone can sign up to DU and pretend to be anything they want. nt

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #19)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:26 AM

51. Are you suggesting Effie is NOT an attorney? n/t

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #19)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:43 PM

117. Uncalled for. nt

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #15)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:39 AM

20. The house doesn't gain any powers under impeachment that they wouldn't have under

... any other investigative powers that could include looking for reasons to impeach.

I ... REALLY ... wish dem pols would get out in front of this and outline for us the steps they're going to take to jail the 5th avenue shooter.

Right now we're depending on punditry and online posters

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #20)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:09 PM

97. That is not true. Read what Lawrence Tribe wrote.

Regular oversight hearings do not give authority to Congress to obtain Mueller's grand jury info, only formal impeachment proceedings can do that.

As Lawrence Tribe stated in the Washington Post:

The uncertain prospect that the House Judiciary Committee will receive the raw, unredacted report generated by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III got even less certain Friday. A decision by the federal court of appeals in Washington now confronts the House leadership and Attorney General William P. Barr with some difficult political choices.

In a 2-to-1 decision in McKeever v. Barr, the court reaffirmed the principle of grand jury secrecy and concluded that a court has no “inherent power” to release grand jury information. This decision will give Barr a plausible basis to resist the Judiciary Committee’s subpoena of the entire Mueller report, even if the committee goes to court to enforce it. But both the House and the attorney general have ways to cope with this obstacle, if they have the political will and the professional judgment to do so.

In McKeever, two Republican appointees, including President Trump’s former deputy White House counsel, concluded that grand jury information must remain confidential unless a request for disclosure falls within one of the narrow exceptions listed in the federal rules of criminal procedure. The court refused to allow the disclosure of grand jury proceedings relating to the 1957 indictment of an FBI agent suspected of conspiring with the regime of Dominican Republic dictator Rafael Trujillo to kidnap and murder an outspoken critic. Even though all the witnesses and principals died long ago, the court concluded that a historian writing a book about the incident could not get access to the grand jury proceedings.

In the face of Barr’s decision not to disclose any of the Mueller report to the public or even to the House Judiciary Committee chaired by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D- N.Y.) until Barr and his team have scrubbed the report of grand jury information (and other material), Nadler and committee Democrats have authorized a subpoena for the full report, setting the stage for a court fight over the committee’s right to see grand jury information. Although the public need underlying the request for disclosure in McKeever was much less pressing, the decision in that case undermines the position of Nadler’s committee, because the controlling federal rule contains no exception allowing congressional “oversight” committees to demand access to otherwise secret grand jury proceedings.

One of the exceptions to grand jury secrecy is disclosure “preliminary to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.” To authorize disclosure of the Watergate grand jury information, the special prosecutor’s office argued that the House had authorized its Judiciary Committee to conduct a formal impeachment inquiry and that such an inquiry could be fairly analogized to a “grand jury” investigation and thus a judicial proceeding. Both the district court and the court of appeals agreed, and the Judiciary Committee obtained both the report and the underlying evidence.

Significantly, the appeals court decision several days ago reaffirmed that exception. All three judges agreed that an impeachment inquiry falls within the “exception for judicial proceedings” and “coheres” with other rulings about the proper scope of grand jury secrecy.

But Pelosi has declined to allow the Judiciary Committee to open even a preliminary impeachment inquiry, asserting rather bizarrely that Trump is “not worth it.” That decision may hamstring Nadler’s quest for the complete Mueller report. Nothing in the federal rules creates an explicit exception allowing congressional committees exercising general powers of government “oversight” to demand access to secret grand jury material. So, Pelosi and Nadler are confronting a dilemma of their own making: either revisit the politically fraught impeachment question or concede that the House is at the mercy of whatever judgment the attorney general makes in excising grand jury information, which may include the most salient material about possible collusion and obstruction of justice.

For his part, Barr also has delicate judgments to make. If he is so inclined, the attorney general could properly opt to exclude only the names and actual testimony of grand jury witnesses while nevertheless informing the Judiciary Committee — and the public — about the substance of the information developed during the proceedings. Unfortunately, Barr has given every indication that he intends to make needlessly sweeping redactions, especially having ruled that, in his judgment, the evidence of obstruction of justice did not rise to the level of a prosecutable crime. Trump’s selection of his new attorney general may prove to be his best line of defense — unless Pelosi revisits her stance and directs the House Judiciary Committee to include impeachment within its investigatory ambit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-full-mueller-report-could-be-released--if-the-house-opens-impeachment-hearings/2019/04/08/e47fff42-5a14-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html

Not only would trying to recreate the grand jury testimony be time-consuming and wasteful in a regular oversight hearing, now that the White House has ordered all Trump aides, including McGahn, to not respond to Congressional subpoenas, it will be next to impossible to do it in light of case law. But not if it is a formal impeachment investigation hearing. That is why we must go this route, and do it immediately.

So, you don't have to believe me, just listen to Lawrence Tribe.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #97)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:33 PM

102. You can cut and paste this is often as you want, but if you actually read it,

and read and understand the law and rules it refers to, you would know that it doesn't contradict Uponit at all.

The provisions and cases that Tribe is discussing don't in any way require the release of grand jury materials to an impeachment panel, nor do make it easier to release such materials to an impeachment panel than to any of oversight proceeding in advance of impeachment (hence the "preliminarily to or in connection with a judiciary proceeding" language).



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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #102)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:40 PM

104. The case law Tribe cites states clearly impeachment hearings are an exception.

I did read it. As Tribe states:

Significantly, the appeals court decision several days ago reaffirmed that exception. All three judges agreed that an impeachment inquiry falls within the “exception for judicial proceedings” and “coheres” with other rulings about the proper scope of grand jury secrecy. 


You have done nothing to distinguish the case law cited by Tribe in that excerpt, counsel.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #104)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:02 PM

106. You may have read it. But you don't seem understand it.

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 02:43 PM - Edit history (1)

No one is questioning Tribe's assertion that an impeachment inquiry is the equivalent of a judiciary proceeding and, this, Rule 6(e) applies to it. That's not the point.

The point is that the Rule 6(e) allows the release of grand jury materials to impeachment inquiries. But it doesn't require it. Moreover, the rule doesn't limit the release of such materials to only impeachment inquiries. It can also be released in other instances, including for proceedings preliminary to impeachment, which would include oversight investigations being conducted as a precursor to impeachment.

It's not enough to just cut and paste statutes and rules. You have to also understand them and how they apply to various cases and controversies. It also helps if you actually read what the commentators you're quoting are saying and what they're interpreting. That would help you know that, in this case, Prof. Tribe contradicted what I'm trying to explain to you.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #106)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:59 PM

119. An oversight hearing is not a hearing "preliminary to impeachment."

A formal impeachment investigation hearing is a hearing "preliminary to impeachment."

That is why Tribe is saying we need to start formal impeachment investigation hearings. I understand Prof. Tribe just fine, counsel. Cite me a case that says a regular oversight hearing amounts to a judiciary proceeding.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #119)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:07 PM

121. As I said, you don't understand it.

Sad part is you don't seem to know what you don't know or even care.

Just as Effie observed

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #121)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:17 PM

124. I do understand it. You clearly have nothing to support your legal argument.

If you did, you'd cite me a case, instead of resorting to insulting me. If you have no legal authority, the presumption is your conclusory arguments are without merit, counsel. Ask any judge.

What sort of law do you, or did you, practice?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #124)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:24 PM

125. No need to cite a case. We were discussing a Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure

In response to your question, I was a litigator and taught Constitutional Law and Criminal and Civil Procedure - including the rule that we're discussing - and was a counsel on the Judiciary Committee, among other things.

What is your legal background?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #125)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:31 PM

126. If that's your background, then you should be able to cite me a case.

I was not discussing the FRCP with you. You seem to have me mixed up with someone else. What FRCP rule do you contend allows an exception to regular oversight hearings to grand jury secrecy?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #126)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:42 PM

128. There's no need to cite you a case. The Rule speaks for itself.

If you had read Tribe's article that you cited, you would know that you were indeed discussing a Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure with me since that rule forms the very basis of his argument - The cases he was discussing were court opinions interpreting that very rule

You seem quite confident in your ability to interpret the law. I'm sure that nothing I cite to you will change your mind, so I'm certainly not going to waste my time doing legal research upon your demand and for your benefit.

I suggest you follow Effie's advice and go do some research.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #128)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:38 PM

139. Ah, so you have nothing. Got it. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #139)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:56 PM

140. You really should just let it go.

It’s not going like you seem to think it is.

It’s more obvious with every post that you’re way out of your league. And Starfish is going easy on you.

Just let it go.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #140)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:36 PM

145. Effie, this is important for our country. We must be able to discuss it on DU as progressives.

Hillary has called for formal impeachment investigation hearings. So has Elizabeth Warren. I think they are right. Same with Lawrence Tribe. StarfishSaver, whatever "league" she happens to be in, has not presented any authorities to contradict those cited by Hillary and Tribe.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #15)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:10 AM

21. It's a misconception that the House gains any "super powers" by opening an impeachment inquiry.

It doesn't.

This misconception seems to be based largely on a misreading of section 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which strictly limit the availability of grand jury materials, but authorizes a judge to release such materials upon the request of a government attorney (e.g., the Attorney General) "preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding." An impeachment inquiry has been held to be the equivalent of a judicial proceeding, so a judge can rule to release grand jury materials to an impeachment panel.

However, while a court can order the release of grand jury materials to an impeachment inquiry, an impeachment inquiry is not the only way Congress can get them. A court can also order their release to proceedings preliminarily to an impeachment inquiry, such as oversight hearings leading up to impeachment proceedings.

BUT the request must be made by the federal attorney - in this case, the AG. A court doesn't have the authority to release the materials upon the request of Congress without the assent the AG. (Barr did say that he'd release the materials to an impeachment panel, but he's proven that his word means nothing, so that's not worth hanging anyone's hat on.)

But a judge is not required to order a release of these materials to any proceeding, be it an impeachment hearing or something else. He or she can deny the request, so there's no guarantee that opening an impeachment inquiry will automatically give Congress access to the materials.

And, unfortunately, a recent ruling by a DC federal court seems likely to restrict this access even more. https://www.lawfareblog.com/summary-dc-circuit-rules-grand-jury-secrecy-mckeever-v-barr

And, aside from Rule 6(e)'s potential, but not certain, impact on grand jury materials, an impeachment inquiry confers no additional powers or authority on Congress to hold hearings, summon witnesses, obtain documents that it does not already have under its oversight jurisdiction.

I know you directed this question to Effie, so I hope you (and Effie) don't mind that I stepped in to answer it and hope my answer was helpful.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #21)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:46 AM

27. I certainly don't mind!

You explained it beautifully, as usual.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #27)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:04 AM

35. You both are misleading,

 

an impeachment hearing shouldn't give more powers than a regular hearing. That assumption is being made with the idea that requests for documents and requests to testify and requests to honor subpoenas are being followed under regular investigative hearings. One small point of correction, subpoenas and requests for documents are being ignored, and sure if we just follow the normal procedure eventually Republicans will have to comply with the subpoenas, which most likely will be after the election which makes your arguments moot.

Trump's strategy isn't to win court cases, it's to delay court cases, and I'm no lawyer but if I use this argument under an impeachment hearing, that time is of importance because of an upcoming election, correct me if I'm wrong, but a judge should give more weight to my argument under impeachment.

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Response to watoos (Reply #35)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:20 AM

39. Sorry, but you're wrong again

You can say it all you like, but that won't make it so. An impeachment inquiry does not give any more access to documents and testimony than any other oversight process. In fact, some materials are easier to obtain OUTSIDE of the impeachment process because of various laws and rules related to their production. One example is the tax returns, which the Chair of Ways and Means is entitled to obtain upon request, a power not accorded to the Judiciary Committee or impeachment panel (they can try to subpoena them, but they're not entitled to them as a matter of law as are those covered by the IRS stature)

You noted that the requests for testimony and documents are being ignored and you're correct. But what you don't seem to understand is that the procedures for compelling them are EXACTLY the same in an impeachment inquiry as they are in the current oversight process. And the Trump people are just as likely to ignore them in an impeachment inquiry as they are now (probably more so, given the higher stakes).

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #39)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:32 AM

42. I'm not talking about Trump people ignoring subpoenas,

 

I'm talking about getting the courts to expedite decisions. It is common sense to me that judges will give more weight to an impeachment hearing.

What is the main reason for waiting on having an impeachment hearing? It can't be that Trump didn't commit crimes? Mueller named Trump as a co-conspirator in a felony. 800 federal judges and prosecutors, who I assume are also lawyers, all claim that Trump committed the crime of obstruction of justice from 4 to 10 instances.

There are certainly numerous examples that Trump committed misdemeanors. The argument for waiting cannot be that we don't have enough evidence on Trump, what is it? Our Constitution demands that when a president commits high crimes and misdemeanors that he be impeached.

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Response to watoos (Reply #42)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:42 AM

45. "Common sense to me" isn't law, practice or procedure.

The reason for waiting is to gather additional evidence and build support for an impeachment inquiry. As a layperson who has probably never had to gather evidence and develop strategy for a trial or build the foundation for congressional investigations and hearings, you're not expected to fully understand how that works, why it's necessary and what it takes to do it correctly, but trust me - it requires more, much more, than just saying "well, from what I see here, I'm convinced he's guilty, so let's just fo for it now with what we've got. We don't have time to pull together or coordinate any more information or map out a strategy. Let's just start anyway and figure the rest out as we go along."

It doesn't work that way. Thank God.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #39)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:11 PM

122. Oh lordy

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #27)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:14 PM

98. Thank heaven we have you and Starfishsaver

Two voices of reason against a background of noise.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #15)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:06 PM

120. You are not wrong! It's all a matter of passion and opinion.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:06 AM

16. +1,000

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:12 AM

22. As always, a thoughtful, reasoned voice

Thank you, Effie--I don't follow a lot of arguments here on DU, but I always appreciate your posts!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:22 AM

24. Thank you, Effie

Very important.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:37 AM

25. I'm so tired of the knee jerk "why don't Dems"

narrative here. Actually knowing how the process works helps.

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Response to mcar (Reply #25)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:44 AM

26. It's not so bad the first or even second time

But when people who clearly don’t know the law or process keep misstating both and keep arguing with people who do know it, that’s when it gets really annoying. And for some reason, ithe ones who know the least seem to be the most obnoxious about it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #26)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:08 AM

36. Can you guarantee that by following regular proceedures

 

under regular hearings that subpoenas will be honored, that documents will be turned over before the election? If you can't your explanation falls apart because all that Trump wants to do is to delay everything not win everything.

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Response to watoos (Reply #36)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:25 AM

41. No one can "guarantee" anything - that's not how this works - just as you can't guarantee

subpoenas would be complied with in an impeachment proceeding, which operates under the exact same rules, procedures and authorities as regular oversight hearings.

As I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, there is nothing special about an impeachment inquiry that gives Congress any additional powers that they don't already have to compel testimony or production of documents.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #26)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:46 PM

148. Actually, that is to be expected...

... it's called the Dunning Kruger effect:

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Obnoxious indeed.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:47 AM

28. Thank you Effie ....

I wish everyone would read the original post by Effie.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:47 AM

29. I agree

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 08:47 AM - Edit history (1)

With every word you say. Democrats are following legal procedure. That takes time.

Trump is scared, why do you think he is screeching so loud? Mobster tactics.

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #29)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:09 AM

37. Thank you for making my point,

 

You said, "that takes time." That is exactly Trump's game plan.

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Response to watoos (Reply #37)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:33 AM

44. Trump's not stalling for time

He's trying to get this all out of the way so it's virtually forgotten long before next November. The sooner impeachment proceedings start, the sooner they can be dispatched with and he can move on to the next thing.

And he wants the Democrats to throw him in the briar patch and jump in with him before the country is ready so that he can battle them on his terms and his timing (and he loves to fight one boogeyman on one front) and win, and walk away claiming victory while we end up with nothing to show for the effort except an eventual asterisk next to his name in the history books.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #44)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:28 AM

53. You've got it right. He wants to be impeached so he can play the victim in 2020..

And avoid discussion of his lack of accomplishments. Pelosi didn't give him that option in 2018 and she won't do it in 2020 unless there's a political change among Republicans.

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Response to watoos (Reply #37)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:54 AM

47. Yes, Trump is stonewalling

With help by Barr.

Isn’t it strange Nixon and Mitchell did the same thing? Worked for a time until the evidence was so explosive it could not be ignored. Where did John Mitchell wind up? Nixon resigned.

Democrat are laying out the ground work, piece by careful piece. That is what you do when you are making a case.

Democrats have well trained Prosecutors and Attorneys on this case.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:56 AM

34. As one who has the very bad habit at times

of talking out of my ass, I agree with you. I sometimes think of how angry I get when someone starts stomping all over my area of expertise by spouting BS. The same applies to me.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:22 AM

40. I've been working on the mutual respect exchange and doing my best to not be snarky.

Occasionally i fail, but , like everyone, I'm a work in progress.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:32 AM

43. meaningful and kindly stated. Thank you.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:48 AM

46. Wouldn't it be loverly if people did that.

Most won't, though. Not even on DU. So, it's easy to imagine that the average person has no clue about any of those things.

Here on DU, someone will probably take the time to explain such terms and concepts, which often requires a rather lengthy post. Unfortunately, most people see long posts and just scroll on.

It's frustrating, but there are always some DUers who do take the time to read those long, explanatory posts. That makes it worthwhile writing them, even if they are mostly ignored.

Thanks for all you do here, Effie!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #46)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:56 AM

48. Not me,

I see an expert, I read. How else do we learn?

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #48)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:00 AM

49. I agree. Some people are willing to learn and will

take every opportunity to do so. Others won't. More's the pity.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #49)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:28 AM

52. This is the reason

I spend so much of my internet time here. I actually learn things I do not know and can share my info with others without all the flotsam I read on most Political sites.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:18 AM

50. It's the internet. Jumping to conclusions is many folks' only exercise...



Seriously, though, it's not just the RW echo chamber that is guilty of this. We all should take a breath and consider things before posting our emotionally charged opinions and "facts" that generally change over time. It's why I seldom post on shooting threads the first few hours, and like to wait until more real facts surface.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:08 AM

57. Thank you. Jumping to unfounded conclusions & spreading misinformation...

... is rampant on the right, we shouldn't engage in it too.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:09 AM

58. What letter did Dems write that

 

you are talking about?


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:14 AM

59. Pelosi, Schiff and Nadler have been making political arguments against impeachment

Not legal. Many of us find those arguments to be unsatisfactory and are reacting accordingly. As for legal backup, there is no shortage of esteemed legal minds who line up on the impeachment hearings now side of the argument.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #59)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:32 AM

62. What political arguments have they been making against impeachment?

And saying the American people don't support impeachment or that it's divisive isn't a "political" argument any more than saying that Trump is divisive and is tearing down the country's reputation or that Obamacare shouldn't be done away with because most Americans support and depend on it aren't a "political" statements.

When have Pelosi, Nadler or Schiff said they're not moving forward with impeachment right now because of electoral politics and what exactly did they say?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #59)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:56 AM

66. Could you link to any sources where any of them

"make political arguments against impeachment" that are "not legal."

All I have ever heard any of them say is that there is a process, and it is not the right time at the moment -- but they're always leaving the door open.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #66)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:03 AM

67. Is "too divisive," a legal argument?

The Senate won’t convict? The way to get rid of Trump is at the ballot box? And my personal favorite, “he’s not worth it,” which is neither political nor legal, meaning it doesn’t even rise to the level of an argument.

You need links? Please.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #67)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:14 AM

70. All I've ever seen is that it isn't time YET. Please provide one link where any of them

rule out impeachment in the future.

Adam Schiff just said yesterday that impeachment might be the only way to get the documents they've been demanding.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/444464-schiff-impeachment-proceedings-could-be-tool-to-get-information-evidence

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) suggested in an interview that aired Sunday that impeachment proceeding against President Trump could be used as an oversight tool to gain information that the House has been seeking.

Schiff said on CBS's Face the Nation that what could drive impeachment is not the president's conduct in special counsel Robert Mueller's report, but rather how the administration "is engaging in a maximum obstructionism campaign against Congress."

"I think that we are seeing more members that recognize that the administration is acting in a lawless fashion, essentially having obstructed justice, is now obstructing Congress and our lawful function.," he said. "And if we conclude that there's no other way to do our jobs, no other way to do the oversight, no other way to show the American people what this president has done, his- his unethical and illegal acts as outlined in the Mueller Report, then we may get there."

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #67)


Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:47 AM

63. I agree. nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 10:49 AM

64. I have become..

intellectually lazy. Not caring enough to find out what is true. So many times in politics, a lot of reading needs to be done to get any kind of a picture. It's not easy navigating different accounts of an event. And the consequences of the most noble of intentions can be catastrophic. It's not surprising that democracy is dying when there is so much an ordinary citizen doesn't know...and can't know. The mis-information age.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:10 AM

68. K&R

Years ago my Sensei explained:
First, if you want to learn, go to the source.
Second, among those at the source, consensus equals truth.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:13 AM

69. K&R

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:17 AM

72. KnR. Seconding your modest request.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:18 AM

73. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I have heard other law professors explain it

 

differently. In case people haven't woken up to it, we are in a real crisis.
I remember hearing the story of someone the Republicans subpoenaed not showing up and they sent the capitol police to bring them. It wasn't a matter of letters flying back and forth and "outrage". They JUST DID IT. If it can't be done, how did they do it?
I think you should to back and look in history, maybe it would inform your thinking.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #73)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:10 PM

83. agreed

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

The issue is not the "sending strongly worded letters" - which, ok, makes sense as procedure etc.
The issues is if we except the game to be the "same as it's been" or a "reasonable honorable opponent".

The nature of information, perception, and "trusted institutions" have been irrevocably changed: in a blindingly fast and thorough way.

Name one "institution" that is as trusted and looked upon as stable as it was in the past. 30 years ago? 10? 5?
* Medical, pharmaceutical industry, health care crisis - what's the first thing you do after you visit the doctor (and before): google medical info.
* Education - for profit college, decline of primary education (due to funding etc), college admissions scandals, cheating, for profit college.
* Sports - Kapernick(sp), abuse, concussions, cheating, doping.
* Religion - massive fleeing of organized religion due to education, facts on line, etc. Not to mention the revelation of horrendous abuses of power.
* Politics - cheating, criminal offences, look forward not backward, war for oil, corporate lobbing, no representation.

I could go on and on... They're all been challenged (some for good reason, some for not) by the nature of new media / internet whatever you want to call it. To be sure, it started in the 70s/80s with alternative media challenging the status quo, but it took the internet, with its ability to collect information historically (infinite memory) and immediately retrieve it. Yes that means good and bad information.

The discourse is not one way anymore. The "back and forth" of social media etc is the new norm and that does not play by the same rules of control that the one way communication of old did. That gives rise to all sorts of good things (DU) as well as bad QAnon, 4CHan, Infowars, etc

My belabored point is that it's a whole new ballgame. It's historical and moving faster than any time in history. People of all walks of life *do not trust* or abide by the categories of old. We can call that a problem of not understanding the "system" but that misses the point of the "system" not being in control of what's happening anymore.

So send the letters. Do all the correct legal stuff. But understand that the battle is (as it always has been) in the public discourse and that it's a whole new way of waging war to win hearts and minds.

And *that* is where we need to learn how to win.

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Response to Locrian (Reply #83)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:26 PM

85. Great post

I think part of the problem is that Democrats often thrive in more formal, process-driven environments; ie government, the courts, education. These sectors have been both the slowest to adapt to disruptive technologies and arguably most undermined by them.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #85)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:46 PM

111. dems are organized, thoughtful, caring etc

Great qualities to be sure - but it's like tanks vs horses, guerrilla warfare vs straight on battles etc.

"Shock and awe" and disaster capitalism are disruptive, fast moving blitzkrieg systems.
So is the new world of internet / media/ and other social organizing entities.

>>These sectors have been both the slowest to adapt to disruptive technologies and arguably most undermined by them.
Indeed.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #73)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:31 PM

87. What 'other law professors?' Can you provide links?

I remember hearing the story of someone the Republicans subpoenaed not showing up and they sent the capitol police to bring them. It wasn't a matter of letters flying back and forth and "outrage". They JUST DID IT. If it can't be done, how did they do it?


Because you remembered hearing a story once, that makes it legal precedent? Can you provide any backup other than your recollection of hearing it? Context is important...

I think you should to back and look in history, maybe it would inform your thinking.


You consider something you remember hearing about once "history" and you call someone else "uninformed in their thinking?"

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #87)

Tue May 21, 2019, 12:32 PM

171. Exactly. That post is a prime example of the problem EffieBlack identified.

Instead of doing any research, a poster says they "remember hearing" the story of "someone the Republicans subpoenaed" being arrested with no preliminaries.

When? What circumstances? How was it resolved? No information. No information from which anyone could glean such information.

Inherent contempt authority has not been used that often and not at all since 1935. The last time it was used, by the way, couldn't have been the example described, since in 1935, the Democrats had a 69-25 majority in the Senate (which is the body that asserted inherent contempt authority).

You can rest assured that the Democrats are not going to dust off the abandoned practice of inherent authority. It would make no sense to do so since the moment they did, the target's lawyers would be filing a habeas corpus petition and the matter would move to the courts, with the target released on his or her own recognizance pending a determination by the courts as to whether the "arrest" was lawful. It makes more sense for the Democrats to dot all their i's, cross all their t's, and then be the ones seeking injunctive relief in court.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #73)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:49 PM

92. The OP didn't argue for/against impeachment (although she's made clear elsewhere where she stands)

She's saying people should do some research and get their facts straight before trying to argue about it.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #73)

Tue May 21, 2019, 07:42 AM

162. Perhaps the OP needs to go straighten out the members of Congress who want impeachment.

Poor misguided souls.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:20 AM

74. This is also one of my pet Peeves

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:40 AM

76. My simplistic assessment...

It seems to come down to this concept:

Emotional activation shuts down critical thinking processes, or more bluntly, Emotions trump logic.

A great many of us are angry and scared, which ironically tends to be the state of mind of conservative most of the time.

People want to see definitive action. They want the threat gone and they are lashing out at who it is safe to lash out against.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 11:43 AM

78. I am not a lawyer. But as a former Union representative,

I am familiar with how long the process takes, (referring to the grievance process), and how frustrating it can be for people in the process.

I dealt with the law insofar as it related to my own job. My job required a knowledge of our National Agreement. It also required a knowledge of how long the grievance process could take.

Recommended.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #78)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:49 PM

105. Some of us non-lawyers actually understand "process" because we've worked with it...

I think there are others who must enjoy the sensation of rage and panic when things don't happen right the eff now!.

I've been a believer in "process" as long as I can remember, both in Labor Relations/Personnel and on the County Affirmative Action Commission (now defunct) and the Civil Service Commission. Unless the system you are working with has been so badly broken and corrupted that it needs to be scrapped altogether, the rules are there to protect all people, not just management people. If something goes awry, there should be a mechanism built in to fix it. Nothing is perfect.

Scrapping US law and the Constitution is not called for. (Someone demanded to see proof that some DUers are mocking "strongly worded letters." How could anyone have missed them-- they've been all over the board.) No one is sorrier than I am that it takes time in this instance -- somewhere deep in my hindbrain is a desire to see Orange Mussolini meet the fate of Benito Mussolini in the public square. But if we as a nation go down that path, our country will really be lost.


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Response to Hekate (Reply #105)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:23 PM

108. Excellent points.

And I agree with them all.

Dealing with any administrative process can be a lengthy journey. I dealt with grievances from the investigatory through the arbitration process, and it was not uncommon for that process to take 1-2 years.

At times, I would ask for information, and after not receiving the requested information, I would file separately on the issue of non-compliance.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #105)

Tue May 21, 2019, 08:02 AM

163. You don't have to be a lawyer to know the process. Some of the most astute legal observers I know

never went to law school. But they do their homework, something that's often sorely lacking in online discussions where some people just post whatever they assume or what they heard or what they read somewhere. And then they repeat it over and over, even after facts have been given to them.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:43 PM

90. Yes, but ....

THE SKY IS FALLING!

Recommended.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:53 PM

93. listen and learn

i read a lot everyday is full of reading to become familiar we should all be reading because we are going to have to have this knowledge so we can fight the orange menace and his minions.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 12:54 PM

94. I didn't know you're an attorney.

Can you give us a brief description of the procedures when someone ignores a subpoena? What recourse do we have when Barr refuses to show up and testify when he's been subpoenaed to appear? Similar for Mnuchin and Trump's tax returns?

Personally, I'd like to see them both subject to impeachment.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #94)

Tue May 21, 2019, 02:41 PM

178. Effie is a law professor

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #178)

Tue May 21, 2019, 03:18 PM

181. Cool

So is my sister

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:03 PM

95. The point of your OP (learn before you write) is lost amidst a lot of people attacking you

with a whole lot of un-thought-through arguments based on assumptions, conjecture and "I heard it somewhere and I'll be damned if some lawyer is going to tell me I got the law wrong" certainty.

It's kind of funny in a not ha-ha kind of way.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 01:28 PM

101. Watching people get frog-marched out of the WH while handcuffed is kind of a dream...

Any reasonable person should know it's unlikely to happen, but the fantasy is endearing. It's easy to get pissed at the flagrant abuse of power by someone who believes they are above the law. It's why many spout off about it, but we also need to take a step back and let the process work, even if it doesn't turn out the way we'd like.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:10 PM

107. Ignorance Used to Be an Embarrassment

Too often now people like to double down on it. Different times..

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Response to dlk (Reply #107)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:50 PM

112. True

Now, legal training and expertise is dismissed as "getting bogged down in legalese" and political experience is sneered at as "inside the Beltway thinking."

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #112)

Mon May 20, 2019, 05:11 PM

123. American Anti-Intellectualism Has Become Epidemic

Slick political operatives have found a way to capitalize on it and feed it. “I’m ignorant and proud of it” is no longer the pejorative it used to be. I believe much of it is rooted in the decades-long assault on public education by Republicans

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Response to dlk (Reply #123)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:26 PM

132. Agreed. It started with Reagan, if not before.

His administration was big on anti-intellectualism and intentional ignorance as acceptable in the pursuit of goals.

It's gone downhill from there.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:25 PM

109. Thank you

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 02:45 PM

110. A modest request

Thank you! I just learned something new at 70 years old...now I understand !

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 03:02 PM

113. Thank you for your

Adroit observation of how to use information more effectively.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 03:26 PM

114. There are Some People At DU For The Sole Purpose of Starting Sh*t.

We probably even have a couple of 400 pound Russians creating chaos from Moscow.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:18 PM

115. Thank you, Effie

I understand the frustration; we'd all like Trump and his minions out ASAP. But we're still a country of laws, however much Trump wants to change that.

Most people are simply frustrated, and as you say, don't understand the legalities. Sadly, though, some simply use that frustration as an excuse to bash the Democratic Party and good, solid Democrats.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 04:51 PM

118. K&R

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:03 PM

129. It Doesn't Matter What The House Believes But What It Can Prove

I assure all D.U.ers that no one is more impatient for impeachment to begin than I. However, thanks to you, Effie, I know what I need to know to bite my tongue a little longer.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:20 PM

130. K&R

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:41 PM

133. "We all have something to learn about something from someone else."

Excellent post.

If I might make a modest request....
Please apply your principles when you present issues related to what white people think, especially women.

I would appreciate that.

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Response to mia (Reply #133)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:46 PM

134. Did you really write that in response to the OP.

Unbelievable.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 06:53 PM

135. Great post

Rec

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:31 PM

138. I'm an admirer of your courage.

Thank you for telling it as you see it. I may not always agree. I will always give you the respect you have earned. (Does anyone see my long fingers signaling "bring it on"?) Difference of opinions is available only on Democratic forums, imo, thank you)

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #138)

Mon May 20, 2019, 07:58 PM

141. Thank you!

I appreciate that, but it doesn’t take much courage to opine on an anonymous online discussion board...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #141)

Mon May 20, 2019, 08:02 PM

142. True, boots on the ground is

all this simplesimon has to offer. "To dream the impossible dream."

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon May 20, 2019, 09:12 PM

147. What a great Idea. VA Gov. Northam would agree with you.

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 09:46 PM - Edit history (3)

I mean, if people had done their research on Northam's verifiable actions and history; how those were all pretty darned in line with being a person who supports the African American community, they might not have been so willing to throw him under the bus during a probably GOP rat-fuck operation. Don't you agree?

Glad you thought of this.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)


Response to Drew Christ (Reply #156)

Tue May 21, 2019, 07:17 AM

159. I'm also coming to realize that some of this is intentional

It's becoming clear to me that some DUers' insistence on posting false information, even when corrected over and over, isn't the result of laziness or obtuseness, but it's part of an effort to troll, sow division, confusion and frustration among Democrats.

These people aren't as stupid and uninformed as they want us to believe.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:45 PM

174. I've been screamed at

literally since January 2017, WHY won't they do anything? Even when I explain that all legal issues have avenues that have to be taken, and explain each and every single one of them, they still can't believe it won't happen overnight.

Seems with advent of Wireless Internet, the accessibility of practically anything, overnight shipping, hell, same day shipping, NO ONE wants to wait any longer. To me, I'm certainly glad this is taking as long as it is. If anything, I would not want to be accused of a crime, tried for a crime, sentenced for a crime, and possibly executed for a crime, all in the same day!

No one seems to understand this any longer. Most just don't have the patience

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 01:54 PM

176. Great post, thanks

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