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Sun May 12, 2019, 08:43 AM

The best pro choice debate strategy you will win every time.

Iíve used this many times and always left the pro lifers mouths open.
First, you let them think they are winning the debate by agreeing with them that it is reasonable to consider a fetus (generally late second or third term - but thatís not germane in this argument) a possibly viable human person, e.g. an unborn human being.

So, they will then go on to say if you agree with that, you must agree with them that abortion is murder. Well, you say, ďhmmmm, I guess if itís a murder that was well thought out, planned, and then executed, we are legally talking first degree pre-meditated murder.Ē

ďOh, yes, they will say. That doctor and mother have committed murder. Now, you are seeing why we are so against it. Itís not a medical procedure like some of you pro-abortion people call it, it is first degree murder of a babyĒ.

You reply with this.
ďSo, if we are going to go with that scenario, we are going to have to go with the states punishment for the crime. Many states use the death penalty and others life in prison without parole for first degree pre-meditated murder.
So, the Doctor could be put to death and the mother might also be for ordering and paying for the baby murderĒ. (This is where you see their jaws open and their eyes widen). You continue, ďAnd, I guess the womanís parents and the father of the baby could be charged with conspiracy or aiding and abetting by paying for the murder or not trying to stop it, if they are in the doctors office during the abortion murder. Thatís the way the law will see it, of courseĒ. (More jaws drop).

Usually after this I walk away acting as if they have convinced me or given me something to think about.
While, in actuality, itís me thatís given them something to think about.
UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES - a debaters favorite weapon - use it, my liberal friends.

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Reply The best pro choice debate strategy you will win every time. (Original post)
Funtatlaguy May 12 OP
rampartc May 12 #1
WhiskeyGrinder May 12 #2
Funtatlaguy May 12 #3
WhiskeyGrinder May 12 #4
sarabelle May 12 #5
Funtatlaguy May 12 #9
greymattermom May 12 #6
Funtatlaguy May 12 #10
greymattermom May 12 #7
2naSalit May 12 #12
CharleyDog May 12 #32
smirkymonkey Tuesday #41
RAB910 May 12 #8
Funtatlaguy May 12 #11
elocs May 12 #13
Funtatlaguy May 12 #14
Buckeyeblue May 12 #15
Funtatlaguy May 12 #17
DFW May 12 #16
Funtatlaguy May 12 #19
calimary May 12 #33
DFW May 12 #39
Rambling Man May 12 #35
FakeNoose May 12 #18
Martin Eden May 12 #20
Funtatlaguy May 12 #21
Martin Eden May 12 #23
Funtatlaguy May 12 #24
treestar May 12 #25
Martin Eden May 12 #34
Cold War Spook May 12 #22
beachbum bob May 12 #26
Funtatlaguy May 12 #28
beachbum bob May 12 #29
CrispyQ May 12 #27
nini May 12 #30
Thunderbeast May 12 #31
Rambling Man May 12 #36
LastLiberal in PalmSprings May 12 #37
JustABozoOnThisBus May 12 #38
TlalocW Tuesday #40

Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:04 AM

1. while i certainly agree with your approach

i don't think this will stop many of these zealots. capital punishment is merely "eye for an eye," and for whom intercourse is a sacred act only allowed for the creation of "baaabies."

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:05 AM

2. There's a part of the pro-life movement who want exactly this -- charges for both the person who

gets the abortion and the person who provides it. They call themselves "abolitionists" and they are the absolute worst.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #2)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:06 AM

3. Tell them this will fill our prisons and raise their taxes.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #3)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:07 AM

4. They don't care. Anything to stop abortion in all circumstances and punish those involved.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:18 AM

5. Well, if a doctor has determined that the life of the mother is threatened by a pregnancy,

does the mother get to "stand her ground" and protect her life by having an abortion? Is there much difference between this and a cop shooting an unarmed black person?

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Response to sarabelle (Reply #5)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:25 AM

9. That's a higher level of debate than most of their minds can handle.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:18 AM

6. So for men, having unprotected sex

can be charged with what? Accessory to first degree murder? It's men who do this, after all.

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #6)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:26 AM

10. That's certainly an argument a good lawyer could make.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:21 AM

7. If men have any responsibility for pregnancy,

then child support payments need to start with ejaculation. They can be identified by DNA tests of fetal cells in maternal blood.

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #7)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:41 AM

12. +1

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #7)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:26 PM

32. the whole problem is: men are not held accountable for sex. This patriarchy we are all

marinated in protects men. Doesn't prosecute rape. Doesn't even test rape kits. Lets men grab pussy.
Lets men talk trash to women; women have to "put up with it." From an early age women are constantly harassed.
Women are beaten by their significant others, and murdered. Strangers murder them. Eroticism and violence against women are often linked in mass market entertainment

To think that we will, anytime soon, hold men accountable for their spraying semen on us, when mostly unwanted, it not realistic. When a women becomes pregnant she shoulders all the blame, is called slut and whore, becomes an outcast, and destined for less education and less pay.

When the Colorado teen birth control project was startling successful, the WH moved in 2017 to tear it all down and is still trying to remove the tenants of the program. This continually happens. Trying to say birth control methods are abortion. Ending abortions is not the point. Making women suffer is the point.

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Response to CharleyDog (Reply #32)

Tue May 21, 2019, 08:06 PM

41. +1000

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:21 AM

8. I always felt the strongest argument is that the forced birthers are violating our freedom of religi

The forced birthers are saying abortion should be banned to satisfy their religious beliefs. That violates everything our nation stands for

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Response to RAB910 (Reply #8)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:26 AM

11. Another viable argument.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:43 AM

13. Regarding abortion, there is no "winning" an argument with those who disagree with you

because no minds or beliefs will be changed. You might pat yourself on the back with how clever your argument was, but it didn't make a difference.

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Response to elocs (Reply #13)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:59 AM

14. I actually have changed a few minds.

They donít want Mothers punished, only Doctors.
So, they are much less certain on this issue now.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:06 AM

15. The problem is that the new Christians would be on board for this

The more punishments, the better. I refuse to argue with them. Use that energy to get out the vote.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #15)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:10 AM

17. Only until their preachers and deacons are jailed.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:10 AM

16. I usually find it impossible to change minds on this issue, but........

When people tell me they are "pro-life," I just ask two questions:

"Are you a vegetarian?" The answer is always "no."

"Do you support the death penalty?" The answer is always "yes."

I just say, "then you're not pro-life. You're pro-death. You're just against abortion rights."

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Response to DFW (Reply #16)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:11 AM

19. Love it.

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Response to DFW (Reply #16)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:28 PM

33. YES. More questions:

You're okay with what they're doing to babies and their families at the border? Ripping infants and toddlers out of their mothers' arms? Keeping those kids in cages? Or farming them out across the country to parts unknown, spiriting them off into the night into orphanages hundreds of miles away, and then not even bothering to keep track (so they may never be able to reunite with their birth families)? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with the fact that at least three children have died in those conditions - on our watch, and in our cages? DIED. One of them was 16, but the other two were LITTLE kids. Died ALONE. In a cage. On the floor. With MAYBE a mat or towel to sleep on, and one of those "tin-foil" "blankets to wrap up in? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with denying poor families, especially those with single-(mainly female)-heads-of-households, funding, programs that help them AND their kids? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with denying funding for decent public schooling? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with denying working mothers affordable childcare? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with denying funding programs so that some of these kids get an actual breakfast in the morning, and a decent nutritious school lunch? Some of these kids come from families so poor that this is likely the only regular meal they're sure they can get. Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with ramping up hostilities overseas so that we're on the verge of war with several countries including one (Venezuela) IN OUR OWN HEMISPHERE? (News flash: it won't always be somebody else's kid who gets sent off to fight and die or get his/her legs blown off.) Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with no broad-based affordable health care? Just because YOU may have a job with health care at least at the moment because you don't wanna have to pay for all those "lazy moochers" getting "free stuff" on your dime? Because otherwise they might get sick and perhaps even die of their illnesses or injuries? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with not vaccinating your kids? So they're not only more vulnerable to catching something - but ALSO then able to spread it through the community to every individual they encounter - ANYWHERE? (Because Jenny McCarthy, or your "freedom-freedom", or because some stupid libtard cautioned you against it, so by Jove you're gonna show THEM who's the boss of you?) Measles anyone? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with ignoring or scoffing at the climate crisis? When it's YOUR planet, too, and YOUR kids and grandkids are gonna have to live in it as it heats up and causes die-offs and mass extinctions of species and dwindling human-habitable land because you didn't think it was worth doing anything about - or even taking seriously? Then you're NOT "pro-life."

You're okay with ignoring Matthew 25:35-45 - the one about "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to Me"? Well then, you aren't the true and legitimate Jesus-worshipper that you'll loudly insist that you are. And you SURE AS HELL aren't "pro-life"!!!

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Response to calimary (Reply #33)

Sun May 12, 2019, 05:50 PM

39. The trouble with that is

There is not a ONE of them that will give you the time to ask all that. They will either interrupt you, turn and leave, or get violent.

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Response to DFW (Reply #16)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:38 PM

35. intelligent

compact, cogent, to the point!

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:10 AM

18. The American Taliban would agree with you

By "Taliban" I mean the ultra-right wingers who hide behind their super-religion in order to punish others for politics they don't agree with.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:51 AM

20. That argument concedes that abortion is murder

If you don't believe that you're being dishonest.

Though it may be satisfying to leave them speechless it won't change their minds and if it's someone you know, they'll come to realize you were toying with them.

Sure, you made a valid point -- murder calls for severe punishment -- but the criminal statutes for abortion can be amended.

What has been established with your argument is that abortion should be oulawed as a crime calling for arrest, conviction, and punishment.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #20)

Sun May 12, 2019, 11:50 AM

21. My argument said.....hmmmm

If we are going with THEIR argument to itís logical conclusion...then yes itís premeditated murder.

Never said I think it is.
Just using debate tools of items in evidence.
e.g. if you believe abortion is murder, you have to punish the murderers accordingly.
I never agree with them that a fetus is a human being. I just make them face the unintended consequences for them believing so.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #21)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:07 PM

23. I didn't think you believe abortion is murder

But it sounded like you pretend to believe that in order to make a point with the anti-choicers (and in the process concede abortion is murder in a misrepresentation of your actual position).

I apologize if I misunderstood your post.

My main point is that we should never concede that abortion is murder -- though your point is well taken if it's cleatly stated up front that for the sake of argument severe punishment would logically follow murder.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #23)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:16 PM

24. I concede to them that they believe that and I am

following along with that assumption of Theirs to lead them to a conclusion that they donít like.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #20)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:27 PM

25. More people should point out that abortion is not murder, it is abortion

At common law, it was a crime separate from murder. And there is a logical reason for that. So they are simply conflating it. If they want it to be illegal again, it should be illegal as abortion, not murder. When it was illegal, it was never treated as murder or called that.

I imagine it became illegal not because of the sanctity of life, but the usual reason that earlier societies needed more people, and thus birth control was illegal, dueling was illegal for depriving the king of a soldier. I have seen a good argument that the Bible prohibits homosexuality and masterbation for the same reason - wasting of sperm to make more Israelis.

Suicide was also illegal for this reason, so people could be prosecuted for an attempt.

They call it murder to make an appeal to emotion. They don't think far enough to even care enough to research what the penalty was back when it was against the law. We don't even know what it would look like for them to get what they want.

By insisting every life begins at conception they are ignoring a major life event - birth. One that is more easily marked and recognized.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:31 PM

34. "They call it murder to make an appeal to emotion."

Quite true, and this is how they get "conservative" Christians to vote for a political agenda that is anything but "pro-life" -- stripping away health insurance and poisoning the planet for profit.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 12:16 PM

22. My approach is different but it still uses pre-meditated murder.

So a fetus is a human being and killing it is pre-meditated murder. The idea is to get them to agree that a fetus is a human being so you can not abort it under any circumstances. If a woman is pregnant and then develops cancer she cannot have chemo because it will kill the baby and she is going to die before the baby is old enough to be viable so they both die, is that correct? They will say that she can have the chemo since if she doesn't both will die. But that is still murder. You are not allowed to kill an innocent person.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:38 PM

26. too many would have ZERO issue with your argument....

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #26)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:40 PM

28. Just wait until it's someone they know that's involved

A family member or friend that goes to prison or the electric chair.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #28)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:43 PM

29. thats always the case with almost all people, but still doesn't stop them from supporting insane

positions at all

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:40 PM

27. I would never concede to them that abortion is murder.

Abortion and the 13th Amendment

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, akoppelman@law.northwestern.edu

I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.


====================================
Parents can't be compelled to donate their organs to their child, even to save the child's life. Why does a fetus have more claim on a woman's organs and life than her child who has been born?

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:48 PM

30. Some of them wouild be ok with that

Sad to say their pro-life stance only applies to the embryo/fetus and stops at birth. It's ok to kill the rest of the folks you mention because they're not as morally superior as they are.

In other words they're brainwashed assholes.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:56 PM

31. They are not "Pro-Life"

They are anti-sex. Their narrative is that the "sinners" are fornicating outside of the sacred bond of marriage. Unplanned pregnancy is the "natural consequence" of this unholy act.

The "Devil" puts lustful thoughts into the sinners mind. God is right in punishing them with an unwanted child-burden.

This is stone-aged thinking based on magical belief in a male deity. It supports a paternal view of humanity with origins in Genesis where Eve ate the damned apple.

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Response to Thunderbeast (Reply #31)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:39 PM

36. They just hate women

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 04:25 PM

37. Looking at them with pity in my eyes and saying, "God, you're stupid,"

and then walking away also works when I'm not in the mood for verbal sparring.

Laughing in their face also works.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 05:16 PM

38. Given that they're probably already ok with murdering any Planned Parenthood M.D., ...

... your debate strategy will merely help you gain acceptance by their brotherhood.

Brother! Let's get you fitted for a sheet and pointy hat!

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Original post)

Tue May 21, 2019, 08:02 PM

40. I've thought of this argument a while ago, and I never used it but then...

I read an article about a guy who uses it as well, and he gets "good" reactions to it.

Basically, you give the following situation. You are in a burning room in a burning building. Don't worry about how, but there is one child in one corner and six children in another corner. You cannot save all of them - you can either save the one child with 100% certainty but also 100% certainty that the six children will die. Or you can save the six children with 100% certainty but the one child will die with 100% certainty. There is no, "Well, if I did this..." hypotheticals. Death for one child, life for six or death for six children, life for one. You don't know any of the children. Who do you save?

Once you get them past their hemming and hawing, they'll say the 6 children.

Ask about the same situation but for five children then four children, then three children, then two children. They will say the multiple children.

Back to the first situation. One child in one corner you can save, six in the other corner. But the six "children" are fertilized eggs in a handy carrying-case that will protect them. And throw in, and you know that not only will the zygotes survive, they will all be implanted in women who will then successfully give birth to healthy children.

Who do you save?

If they say the six zygotes, they are at least weirdly consistent. More than likely, they'll start hemming and hawing again, and at that point, you don't even need for them to say anything. Something else is making them re-think their answer. Ask them what it is. Chances are they won't have a good answer or won't want to give one.

TlalocW

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