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Sat May 11, 2019, 04:04 PM

Police shoot 17 year old girl armed with knife

I'm surprised this is hardly in the news. Guess our society doesn't care anymore since it happens too often now.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/17-year-girl-brandishing-chefs-knife-apologizes-officer/story?id=62953191

118 replies, 5318 views

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Arrow 118 replies Author Time Post
Reply Police shoot 17 year old girl armed with knife (Original post)
ansible May 2019 OP
Brainfodder May 2019 #1
spin May 2019 #7
Brainfodder May 2019 #17
Kaleva May 2019 #19
Brainfodder May 2019 #34
zackymilly May 2019 #37
Brainfodder May 2019 #40
Kaleva May 2019 #51
spin May 2019 #46
Kaleva May 2019 #24
LisaL May 2019 #18
Brainfodder May 2019 #47
WhiskeyGrinder May 2019 #2
bitterross May 2019 #52
WhiskeyGrinder May 2019 #62
Nuggets May 2019 #68
uppityperson May 2019 #3
Jake Stern May 2019 #9
SCantiGOP May 2019 #28
Post removed May 2019 #32
MicaelS May 2019 #42
Nuggets May 2019 #71
ahoysrcsm May 2019 #54
uppityperson May 2019 #48
Nuggets May 2019 #78
Nuggets May 2019 #70
treestar May 2019 #100
Nuggets May 2019 #110
treestar May 2019 #112
womanofthehills May 2019 #89
NutmegYankee May 2019 #116
Rambling Man May 2019 #67
uppityperson May 2019 #74
Rambling Man May 2019 #75
Glimmer of Hope May 2019 #4
dumbcat May 2019 #14
Baitball Blogger May 2019 #25
samnsara May 2019 #27
LisaL May 2019 #30
womanofthehills May 2019 #92
gejohnston May 2019 #95
Fla_Democrat May 2019 #43
Polybius May 2019 #61
Rambling Man May 2019 #66
Dale Neiburg May 2019 #5
Jake Stern May 2019 #6
pintobean May 2019 #8
Jake Stern May 2019 #13
Baitball Blogger May 2019 #26
Drahthaardogs May 2019 #65
womanofthehills May 2019 #90
Straw Man May 2019 #96
dumbcat May 2019 #10
Igel May 2019 #20
emmaverybo May 2019 #29
bitterross May 2019 #53
lostnfound May 2019 #56
NutmegYankee May 2019 #11
Kaleva May 2019 #12
ProudLib72 May 2019 #15
cwydro May 2019 #21
ProudLib72 May 2019 #31
lostnfound May 2019 #55
womanofthehills May 2019 #91
ProudLib72 May 2019 #94
renate May 2019 #106
Downtown Hound May 2019 #16
Jersey Devil May 2019 #22
WhiskeyGrinder May 2019 #23
elocs May 2019 #33
dumbcat May 2019 #35
treestar May 2019 #60
Nuggets May 2019 #72
treestar May 2019 #79
Nuggets May 2019 #84
treestar May 2019 #85
Nuggets May 2019 #88
treestar May 2019 #97
Nuggets May 2019 #98
treestar May 2019 #99
mokawanis May 2019 #36
WhiskeyGrinder May 2019 #39
UniteFightBack May 2019 #45
uppityperson May 2019 #49
Kaleva May 2019 #50
mokawanis May 2019 #63
Kaleva May 2019 #82
treestar May 2019 #101
mokawanis May 2019 #108
zackymilly May 2019 #38
HipChick May 2019 #41
Kaleva May 2019 #58
HipChick May 2019 #64
Rambling Man May 2019 #77
UniteFightBack May 2019 #44
Rambling Man May 2019 #69
treestar May 2019 #86
Joediss May 2019 #57
treestar May 2019 #59
Mosby May 2019 #73
Rambling Man May 2019 #76
Mosby May 2019 #109
Rambling Man May 2019 #111
treestar May 2019 #102
Mosby May 2019 #105
treestar May 2019 #115
Mosby May 2019 #117
treestar May 2019 #118
appleannie1943 May 2019 #80
sarisataka May 2019 #81
Demonaut May 2019 #83
sarisataka May 2019 #87
Tarc May 2019 #93
matt819 May 2019 #104
treestar May 2019 #113
Blue_Tires May 2019 #103
treestar May 2019 #114
True Dough May 2019 #107

Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:10 PM

1. Making my argument for non-lethal force options as mandatory ASAP pretty easy!

/nt

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #1)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:26 PM

7. Apparently non lethal force was considered. ...

From the linked article:


A second officer responding to the scene, near a Carl's Jr. in the 400 block of North Rose Avenue, police said, was preparing a "beanbag" shotgun to subdue the girl when she started toward Roberts and he fired his gun.



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Response to spin (Reply #7)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:48 PM

17. Not good enough.

First response should have it at the ready always, no back up might get there in time excuses feel right at all?

Of course if it's someone attacking the arriving first responders, it's a different story.

One of my cousins is a 25 year officer in Virginia, I don't take this too lightly.


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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #17)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:58 PM

19. Are you saying the 1st responder ought to always have in hand a shotgun?

Wouldn't that immediately escalate situations far more then necessary? In the video, the 1st responder didn't draw his weapon until the girl started making threatening moves.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #19)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:31 PM

34. I never mentioned a shotgun.

That's not my line, there are other methods which could include, tazers, tranqullizers, pepper spray, flash grenades, & new tech we don't even know about?



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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #34)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:57 PM

37. Police in Michigan have net guns that entrap suspects.

Saginaw police department said they work great. CO2 powered, cost $750 each, paid for with drug money seizures and it cost $1.60 to reload it after it's fired.

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Response to zackymilly (Reply #37)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:15 PM

40. That sounds good!

I don't want any more stupid preventable shootings, it could be you, it could be me.

I watched Arrow, there are options!





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Response to zackymilly (Reply #37)

Sat May 11, 2019, 11:19 PM

51. It appears that the Saginaw County Sheriff's Department has two net guns

"Karl said he eventually would like to buy a second net gun and have one sergeant on the day shift and another on the night shift carry the devices. He said it will be available to assist other agencies."

https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/2014/04/net_gun_will_tangle_saginaw_co.html#incart_river_default

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #34)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:48 PM

46. Tazers are not always reliable. ...

Taser vs. Gun: Why Police Choose Deadly Force Despite Non-Lethal Options
Sept. 29, 2016, 7:16 AM EDT / Updated Sept. 29, 2016, 7:16 AM EDT
By Amanda Sakuma


***snip***

TASERS AREN’T ALWAYS IDEAL OR CONSISTENTLY NON-LETHAL

Policies on deadly or less-lethal force vary widely between states and police departments, as do standard practices on Taser guns. Not every police officer on the street is certified to use stun guns. And while some police departments, like Chicago, are adding hundreds more Tasers in the field, others only have enough equipment to outfit a fraction of their force.

***snip***

Many shootings involve an inefficient Taser first,” said Peter Moskos, a former Baltimore police officer and professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. “They often don’t work, and then what?”

From a practical perspective, police officers need to be within a relative mid-range, as far as 15 and 25 feet, in order to use a Taser. But if a subject is too close, then a Taser wouldn’t be effective either.

Tasers can also be just as deadly as a gun if certain circumstances align. For people with heart problems or serious medical conditions, as many as 50,000 volts in a single shot from a Taser could turn fatal.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/taser-vs-gun-why-police-choose-deadly-force-despite-non-n656461


Pepper spray also doesn’t work well on all people.

Pepper Spray: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Posted On July 6, 2018Author Brutal Barb

***snip***

Pepper spray does not work on everyone. Statistics are not available, however in police circles there is an informal estimate of about 30% of the population is not affected by it. In addition to those who are not affected, there are perpetrators who are on drugs and just won’t feel the effects. If someone is what is called “goal oriented”, meaning determined to assault and/or rob and/or kill you, he/she is still going to come after you.

The police never depend on pepper spray. They use it as a tool but never put all their faith into it. In high quality police training, officers are taught to have an immediate backup plan in mind in case the pepper spray doesn’t work. And if you are carrying pepper spray, so should you.
https://www.warriorwomenselfdefense.org/pepper-spray-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/


Tranquilizer guns also have drawbacks.



Author Question: How Fast Does A Tranquilizer Dart Work?
OCTOBER 8, 2018 / JORDYN REDWOOD

Alyson Asks:

I’m writing a script where the villains shoot people with a gun but we discover later it was only a tranquilizer. Is there a tranquilizer drug combination that can be shot from a distance (can be close range) at a person that would take effect fairly immediately? Or would stop them from being able to communicate.

Jordyn Says:

Thanks for sending me your question.

There is no drug combination given intramuscularly (IM or within the muscle as a dart injection would be) that would incapacitate a victim immediately or even within a few seconds. For instance, Ketamine takes 3-4 minutes to work IM. This will be the case with most drugs given via this route— the range of 2-4 minutes for onset of action.
https://redwoodsmedicaledge.com/2018/10/08/author-question-how-fast-does-a-tranquilizer-dart-work/


Flash grenades are usually used when entering a building. I doubt if they would be all that useful when someone is charging you with a knife.

Plus a knife is an extremely deadly weapon for someone who has training in using one. I doubt if the girl in the video had any training in knife fighting. It is a tragedy that she ended up being shot. It would be great if we could develop a phaser like in Star Trek that could be set to stun.

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #17)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:05 PM

24. Michigan law

"750.226 Firearm or dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument; carrying with unlawful intent; violation as felony; penalty.

Sec. 226.

(1) A person shall not, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, go armed with a pistol or other firearm, or a pneumatic gun, dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00."

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cosa3lh2alyig0ji4fv3whmo))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-226

In Michigan, threatening with a knife is treated the same as threatening with a gun.

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Response to Brainfodder (Reply #1)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:50 PM

18. Knife is a lethal weapon.

Using non lethal force against a lethal force should be mandatory?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #18)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:52 PM

47. The option being available, yes.

Lethal force as the only one, not good, too many mistakes possible on a hair trigger trained brain that isn't always well rested?


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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:12 PM

2. "Don't reach for it, put it down, sit here on the curb." Way to start it off clear, genius.

Christ, what a shitshow.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #2)

Sun May 12, 2019, 12:14 AM

52. Why is a simple, logical request a shitshow?

He made a completely reasonable request of her. She chose to do the exact opposite.

There is clearly something mentally wrong with the kid. I have no doubt of that. She kept saying she'd been waiting all day. She said:

"Shoot me. I've been waiting all day. I've been waiting. Come on." It looks a lot like an attempt at suicide by cop.

If I were on a grand jury for this police officer I would not vote to indict.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #52)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:01 AM

62. Because it was three simple, logical requests in a row, leading to confusion, and then instead of

taking control of the situation and clarifying what he needed her to do, he lost what little control he had of the situation and let her take the lead, and reacted to her actions.

There is clearly something mentally wrong with the kid. I have no doubt of that. She kept saying she'd been waiting all day. She said:

"Shoot me. I've been waiting all day. I've been waiting. Come on." It looks a lot like an attempt at suicide by cop.


His training prioritizes the elimination of criminal harm. The victim needed training that prioritized harm reduction. The shitshow is that his training and his actions reinforce the attitude on this thread of "looks like suicide by cop," as if he were just doing her a favor, as if having state squads that show up to people in crisis and shoot them "on request" is really what "protect and serve" means.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #62)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:14 PM

68. +1000 nt

 

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:19 PM

3. Did he ever ask why she wanted him to shoot her?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #3)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:29 PM

9. If you're approaching me with a knife

the last damn thing on my mind is to say "Let's talk about this over some burgers and fries".

She had a weapon. She approached him with said weapon. She refused to put down said weapon. She started approaching faster like she was gearing up for a charge.

Even for a civilian in virtually all states that would have been considered a justified use of force.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #9)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:11 PM

28. Bullshit

The fucking murderous coward shot a girl from 20 feet away.

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Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #28)


Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #28)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:30 PM

42. Try an experiment.

See how fast you can run towards someone 20 feet away. The time is seconds. And a knife is a LETHAL weapon. You can seriously wound or kill someone with a knife. The officer did the correct thing.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #42)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:33 PM

71. This is a ridiculous argument

 

He had plenty of space to keep out of critical distance. He has a gun she cannot beat that trigger finger unless he’s slow as molasses. No way a trained officer is in any danger talking this obviously distressed girl down. instead they overdramatized the danger to evade charges.

It’s why we hear these knife statistics each time they shoot a person with a knife.

There is a video with Dan Inosanto, a world-famous martial artist trained in a wide variety of knife systems. It’s where police came up with the 21 ft rule.

There are very few people in the world with the skills of Mr. Inosanto and fewer still of them that are going to randomly attack a police officer.

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Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #28)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:28 AM

54. If you like...

I'm sure your local police force has a ride along program. Taking a ride along may be the best thing for someone who thinks the officers life was not in danger.

Also go to a dinner, or some other eating establishment when there are a few police cars there. Police are very friendly group when not "on the clock" and would probably not have a problem chatting about local issues.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #9)

Sat May 11, 2019, 08:31 PM

48. He had time at the beginning to get her to engage verbally but chose to just make commands

At the end, true. But for the minute leading up to that, he had plenty of time to try and self-defense beyond yelling commands. He didn't.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #48)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:30 PM

78. Right and either way

 

his training includes disarmament. Why train if you’re simply going to use a gun or taser?

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #9)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:23 PM

70. Baloney that's EXACTLY how you start.

 

Instead they escalated the situation because their demands weren’t met. If that’s how they are trained it’s incredibly idiotic.

How is it that mental institution social workers and bartenders the world over can manage to get control of violent mental patients every day but the police can’t seem to do anything but overreact and kill them.

Like when they are called about a fight in a bar, instead of de-escalating they scream curse words demand and, yell calm down! or relax!

Want to know how to instantly enrage an already upset person? Tell them to “calm down!” Or “Relax!”

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #70)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:17 PM

100. Surely they can make sure those in mental institutions

don't have guns or knives.

Bartenders never call the police? I would think most would if someone was there threatening someone with a knife or gun.

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Response to treestar (Reply #100)

Mon May 13, 2019, 04:44 PM

110. Mental patients make weapons

 

out of ordinary objects. No, bartenders and mental health workers don’t have time to wait for police to show up.
They regularly talk down and/or control agitated people.


This woman had a knife he knew about before he arrived. She walked up slowly with a knife while he ordered her around like a prisoner. It’s the wrong approach, he escalated the danger to himself. This isn’t rocket science. Talk to others they way you want them to talk to you.
Would the police treat another officer who was distressed enough to want commit suicide like this ?

This is how a professional law enforcement officer does their job.

https://m.




Police are rarely at any crime scene to take it down while in progress. If I remember correctly it was something like 1%.

That means everyday Joes are the people who are actually the first responders. That’s not to take away from an important job the police do, that is reality.

The unwarranted hero worship started in the 80s when the drug war was escalated by Nixon. My uncle, who is a former Colo Spgs officer says that’s when he noticed an influx of what he calls “neo nazi type officers” . Training was focused on finding and taking down drug dealers and users with military precision. Attitudes swung hard into the “us vs them” view.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #110)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:38 PM

112. Everyday Joes are even less likely to be trained to deal with something like this

Everyday Joes have the option of running and calling the police. He had to do something about it. What would you be saying if he got in the truck and left and she harmed herself or another after that? She had plenty of chances to drop the knife. She didn't have to start running towards him with it. You're practically making him responsible for what she does and leaving her none at all.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #9)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:29 PM

89. He is a grown man basically shooting a mentally ill kid

He could have stayed in his police car and called for help for her. If he felt he had to shoot a kid, he could have shot her once in the leg.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #89)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:13 PM

116. You watch too many movies.

It's hard to hit a leg in motion and a leg shot can kill in seconds if it severs the femoral artery, which is rather easy with standard hollow point bullets. With adrenaline running, it's hard to even hit a moving target at all. especially with a handgun that has to be immediately raised into firing position. Also, he had to get out of the car to approach the girl in the first place, and the knife was not visible on approach.

What is not discussed in the video is the calls to 911 about a crazy woman with a knife were from her cell phone. This was a suicide by cop attempt. For the training he did have, which was not social or mental, he showed a lot of reluctance to use force and was stalling for backup to enable other options. Compare this guy to the nutjob driving up to Tamir Rice and blasting him in seconds. It's not even close.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #3)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:14 PM

67. Police are NOT mental health professionals

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Response to Rambling Man (Reply #67)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:17 PM

74. Some try to de-escalate, others don't. They need more training in how to do so.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #74)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:24 PM

75. a police

is not:

1. your friend
2. your caseworker
3. your therapist
4. your babysitter
5. your "de-escalator"
6. your mom and dad

etc.

They are:

1. trained to hit center mass
2. protectors of white privilege
3. enforcers of "blue Isis"
4. protectors of property
5. scared as shit
6. often dumb as a brick

They are trained to mistrust, lie, brutalize, and take away your civil rights for "officer safety."

If you play stupid games with a police, you WILL win a stupid prize.

Best to avoid them at all costs. If they're fishing, out of pocket, etc., just let them arrest you. You stand a better chance of surviving (they'll probably still kick your ass) in booking at the cop shop.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:20 PM

4. She is obviously a depressed child. Why would shooting her be an option?

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Response to Glimmer of Hope (Reply #4)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:35 PM

14. I wonder what is your preferred option?

Do you have any experience in these cases?

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Response to Glimmer of Hope (Reply #4)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:08 PM

25. She charged him, after he backed up several yards.

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Response to Glimmer of Hope (Reply #4)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:10 PM

27. why couldnt he shoot her in the knee?

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Response to samnsara (Reply #27)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:20 PM

30. She got shot three times, once in the leg (thigh area)

I guess it's not that easy to shoot a running subject in the precise area of the body, no? Do you seriously think it would be possible to shoot a running person in a small area such as a knee?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #30)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:58 PM

92. Hello, he could have shot up into the air or the ground first to scare her

Just hearing a gun shot would most likely have stopped her.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #92)

Sun May 12, 2019, 11:54 PM

95. no it wouldn't,

and the bullet could very well fall on and kill some kid walking to the library.

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Response to samnsara (Reply #27)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:34 PM

43. Uncle Donut.....

Why don't police shoot people in the legs?






There's a video out of Iran that depicts that perfectly. Bank robber has a knife, cop shoots him in the leg... (text taken from a blog page describing the video. Prefer not to link it, but can if need be. )



An Iranian bank robber armed with a knife is boxed in by a crowd that won’t let him leave, but leery of getting stabbed with his hunting knife, they won’t tackle him, either. A plainclothes police officer shows up armed with a pistol and tries to take the man into custody, but the robber runs around a car. He finally turns towards the officer with a dirt median strip behind him. The officer sees an opportunity to fire a debilitating shot that will impact with relatively safety in the soil of the median instead of of ricocheting off the pavement into the crowd.

He takes the shot at 1:40 into the video.

The round penetrates the man’s leg, striking the femoral artery and either tears or severs it completely. The man takes several steps, then collapses to the ground from blood loss within 15 seconds, woozy but still upright and conscious. A 2:19, approximately 40 seconds after being shot in the leg, the man has lost so much blood that he falls over unconscious.


<Clip to follow only 4 paragraph rule>


The bank robber is dead just as fast from a shot to the leg as he would have been from a shot to the heart, and for the same reason; when a major artery or the heart itself is shot, blood doesn’t get pumped to the brain. When the brain can’t get oxygenated blood because either the pump (the heart) or the delivery system (major arteries) are destroyed, a person will quickly die.


I think a better question is... Why couldn't/didn't she put the knife down when ordered to?




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Response to samnsara (Reply #27)

Sun May 12, 2019, 08:31 AM

61. Because that's fantasy when adrenaline is flowing

Hitting a running target in the knee while is pure Hollywood.

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Response to samnsara (Reply #27)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:13 PM

66. Because life isn't an action movie?

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:22 PM

5. I'd call it a clear example of attempted suicide by cop.

A good argument though for non-lethal alternatives (like tasers), assuming they weren't available but not used for whatever reason.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:23 PM

6. Don't see anything wrong with this shooting.

She kept advancing with a goodly sized knife, despite being given multiple commands to drop it and was only shot after she picked up speed in approaching the officer.

For all those who say "But it's just a knife" keep in mind it only takes a couple seconds for a person at full charge to cover several yards.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:27 PM

8. I agree.

The cop gave her every chance. When she charged him, he had no choice.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #8)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:32 PM

13. Despite the common belief on DU that all police shootings are bad

This is one of those cases where I back the officer 100%.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #13)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:08 PM

26. I back the cop as well.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #13)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:45 PM

65. The cop here did nothing wrong.

I think there are people on this thread just trolling

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #65)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:35 PM

90. the cop did a lot wrong

the girl was young and obviously disturbed -

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #90)

Mon May 13, 2019, 02:23 AM

96. Surely you don't mean ...

the cop did a lot wrong

the girl was young and obviously disturbed -

... to suggest that disturbed people with knives are harmless.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:31 PM

10. 21 feet (7 yards) is the rule

that I was taught.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #10)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:59 PM

20. Looks close to that.

About three parking spaces wide, perhaps a bit less; parking spaces are around 7 1/2 to 9 feet wide, so under 27 feet and possibly as little as 21.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:17 PM

29. Yes. And if not stopped, at least one officer down, and who else? Another officer, a civilian?

Once they have been unable to gain compliance for an armed person to drop that arm, in a case in which a police or civilian life is threatened, it is universal police training to make a quick and lethal decision. Officers called to the scene can not judge intent, the possibility of additional assailants, the presence of another weapon, or whether or not, should an armed aggressor not be controlled, civilians are at risk.
If you want to argue against this protocol, then you must come up with another universal operating standard to ensure law enforcement and civilian life is not at risk from the use of lethal force.
In England, where knife casualties are more common, it has been shown that multiple people can be killed by one individual armed with a knife.
This case is clearly one of justifiable homicide.
The majority of officers do not want to have to draw a weapon in a lifetime policing.
Though there will be trauma for family, the officer will not be unaffected.




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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Sun May 12, 2019, 12:18 AM

53. I completly back the cop in this one.

She had an agenda in mind. She made that agenda happen. The cop, in THIS case, in innocent of wrong doing.

Let me be clear here. I think the hashtag #acab has a lot of evidence to support it. Not in this case.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #53)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:56 AM

56. Innocent, yes. Optimal, no. It will be nice when we can work on "optimal".

This isn’t the type of police shooting that feels motivated by racism or unreasonable anger or paranoia.
But society’s method of addressing a depressed teen girl with a. Knife, and mentally distressed people in general, can be dramatically improved.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:32 PM

11. I can be very critical of police, but I think this was reasonable.

The officer gave her space and walked back from her to keep a safe distance. He only fired when she started running toward him. He gave her plenty of opportunities to drop the knife or not approach. Could a non-lethal method have been used if available yes, but overall I think this was a reasonable shoot.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:32 PM

12. Appears to me that the cop did nothing wrong.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:37 PM

15. Gee, when a teenager threatened me with a knife, I just laughed at him

And he was a hell of a lot closer than she was. He was actually pressing it against my leg. If I had only been allowed to carry a gun to school that day!

And, yes, this is a true story. It just underlines the stupidity of the cop in this video.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #15)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:00 PM

21. What happened next?

Curious.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #21)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:21 PM

31. He didn't go through with it

I put it down as just another incident in middle school. That was a horrible year! In my math class, the "kid" who sat directly behind me was 18. That was 7th grade math, and he was 18! He used to give me lead fingers all the time until I stood up in the middle of class and yelled at him. The teacher moved me to another desk and told him to start behaving.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #15)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:52 AM

55. Me too. And to a man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.

Many years ago, that happened to me. Kid walked away.

Depressed seventeen year old girl with a knife.hope she survived. Sad that it got so far.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #15)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:55 PM

91. Yrs ago, my boss had me drive a Vet to the Veterans Hospital - the Vet pulled a knife on me

The guy was in the front seat and put a knife to my neck. I could not jump out because I had my young daughter in the back of the van. So, I just talked and talked in a super calm voice, acting like I didn't see the knife and asking him questions about his friends and himself. Finally, he put the knife back in his pocket. When we got to the hospital, he would not go in the front door and made us accompany him through some back door. When we got to the dept where he wanted to go, I grabbed my daughter and we ran into a door that said do not enter, spoke with a nurse and she went up to him all sweet, knowing his name and asked for his knife which he gave her. I was scared shit, but the cop could have interacted more with the girl initially as she was obviously very mentally ill.

There are too many stories of police killing mentally ill people when their family calls. All cops should have non lethal spray or a taser on their belt. In my small town, there was a crazy cop with a super short fuse and it did not end well.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #91)

Sun May 12, 2019, 11:44 PM

94. I thought of the taser.

Why no taser? You can shoot someone with a taser from a safe distance!

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #91)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:38 PM

106. Wow! You handled that BRILLIANTLY!

I’m so impressed by your quick decision to pretend you didn’t see the knife. It makes sense—not escalating the situation—but I don’t think I would ever have been so smart.

That must have been so traumatic, especially because of your daughter’s presence. I’m so sorry you went through that and so glad you thought so quickly.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 04:37 PM

16. It's a sad situation for all involved

But this was clearly attempted suicide by cop. She regretted it once she felt just how much getting shot actually hurts. I feel sorry for her, but this cop did nothing wrong. And the truth is, he has to live with this now too. And I know we all like to think of cops as emotionless, sadistic monsters (and don't get me wrong, some of them are), the fact is that things like this are why police have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:02 PM

22. Sad, but cop had no choice

She was running at him when he shot. Was he supposed to get stabbed before shooting?

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:04 PM

23. We can do better than the police system we have.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:30 PM

33. Unless she was close enough to stab them, what are these cowards afraid of?

Don't cops carry batons these days? But it's always the "I feared for my life" excuse. When your go-to tool is a gun, that's what gets used first.

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Response to elocs (Reply #33)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:47 PM

35. The 21 foot rule is almost universal in police training

and upheld by courts.

A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm.


https://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Many, many studies have shown that someone with a knife within 21 feet can kill a person even already having a gun in the hand. It's one of the most universal rules in LEO training.

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Response to elocs (Reply #33)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:54 AM

60. How long do they have to wait?

A local cop where I live was killed with a knife. He was chasing someone. They turned suddenly with the knife and killed him with it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #60)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:36 PM

72. You think this girl could have turned suddenly

 

Last edited Sun May 12, 2019, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

and killed this cop?

How long do they have to wait?
How long does it take to talk her down? How much is her life worth? Apparently not more than a few minutes of a cops time.

Yet good cops talked a man into giving up his AR15 he was threatening them with
Took them 45 minutes.

They could have continued to evade her for hours
Are they that out of shape? Why learn hand to hand if you’re always going to go for the gun first?

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #72)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:54 PM

79. She is running towards them.

Last edited Sun May 12, 2019, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)

No time to talk her down.

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Response to treestar (Reply #79)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:56 PM

84. He had plenty of time from the get go

 

He called her over to his car for heaven’s sake!

Then he started making demands. This is the kind of crap that escalates the situation. No one needs to have a degree in psychology to understand compassion and basic respect for others.

How about talking to people instead of belting commands?
How about not treating every person with mental issues like they’re a serial killer or violent gang member?

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #84)

Sun May 12, 2019, 08:01 PM

85. You should get hired at the police

Academy so you can teach them properly.

You can’t totally control others. You are Monday morning quarterbacking. There is no guarantee that there is never to be a situation where the police are correct to shoot someone.

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Response to treestar (Reply #85)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:02 PM

88. Ah the old

 

if you’ve never been a cop you have no room to speak. Really?
I don’t need to be a waitress, barber, doctor, dentist to see when they are incompetent either.

He had plenty of time, plenty of room, could have showed a modicum of respect or empathy but chose to be a demanding, dehumanizing jerk and killed her.

I swear with some ppl there us absolutely nothing too heinous any officer can do. They will always worship them like they walk on water.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #88)

Mon May 13, 2019, 08:24 AM

97. Did she die? She may have survived

Your last sentence is unfair and shows you will never be objective - a police officer is always wrong in your view.

What is your job? I would be interested if you are willing to entertain criticism from those who have no experience in it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #97)

Mon May 13, 2019, 10:55 AM

98. So if she's riddled with bullets and

 

might survive its just dandy??

And lol! My family is full of law enforcement! My bil the chief of police in a mid sized midwestern city.
I am fully trained and certified in several martial arts styles and have actually trained with police.
All are highly aware of the internal code “speak out, and you’re no longer “one of us.” You’re one of “them.”
Some of them believe they are worth more than others. That they are most moral ppl on earth and they sure aren’t putting their lives on the line for anyone. They enjoy pushing their weight around though.

But since you’ll simply accuse me of lying , maybe you’ll listen to a former officer-words from a man who tried to be a good officer:


“ But an even more serious problem — police violence — has probably grown worse, and it’s out of control for the same reason that graft once was: a lack of accountability.
I tried to be an honest cop in a force full of bribe-takers. But as I found out the hard way, police departments are useless at investigating themselves—and that’s exactly the problem facing ordinary people across the country


Today the combination of an excess of deadly force and near-total lack of accountability is more dangerous than ever:
Most cops today can pull out their weapons and fire without fear that anything will happen to them, even if they shoot someone wrongfully. All a police officer has to say is that he believes his life was in danger, and he’s typically absolved. What do you think that does to their psychology as they patrol the streets—this sense of invulnerability?

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act 20 years ago, requiring the Justice Department to produce an annual report on “the use of excessive force by law
enforcement officers,” the reports were never issued.)“. James J Fyfe

Even Serpico has spoken out since Ferguson but the cop apologists just stab them right in the back.

Ppl who continuously exaggerate the dangers of everyday cops will allow them to get away with anything.
It also takes away from the efforts and pain of officers who really have put their lives on the line for people.

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Response to Nuggets (Reply #98)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:09 PM

99. Well you could at least be accurate

You are certainly willing to judge others, but you are not a police officer from what you've described. So whatever you actually do, are you willing to entertain criticism from those who do not do it?

I have condemned my fair share of cops for their actions in many of the cases discussed on DU, found them to be in the wrong. So a lot of your language in inapplicable.

It's not fine and dandy because they don't die, but you are inaccurate to claim she died when she didn't. It does make a huge difference to her.

I am sure there a plenty of people who think they are worth more than others. One does not have to be a cop to think that.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 05:55 PM

36. The cop has really poor verbal skills

How about actually trying to talk her out of holding the knife? Could have tried reassuring her that he was there to help and that other people were also available to help.

I worked at a psychiatric hospital for many years and talked people into giving up weapons (a razor, a chair, an eating utensil) on several occasions. We were trained that use of force was always to be applied in the least harmful way possible in any situation. If you have to use force, use it....but don't use more force than the situation calls for.

That cop went from "drop it" to shooting her without trying other tactics. I know he was in a bad situation where he could have been hurt or killed, but he still should have tried other ways of talking to her before he resorted to lethal force.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #36)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:03 PM

39. He's not there to help. He's there to "contain the threat" -- to dehumanize and objectify

the person who's clearly going through some kind of internal struggle. I'd love to see a first-responder crew that includes people trained in emergency crisis counseling and with a different scale of using force.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #36)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:48 PM

45. He didn't do it because they are not trained professionals. Any old fool can become a cop. nt

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #36)

Sat May 11, 2019, 08:33 PM

49. Exactly, thank you

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #36)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:58 PM

50. None of those things you mentioned are considered to be deadly weapons

I know from experience that not even police officers are allowed to bring a deadly weapon into a psychiatric unit as such items are to be secured in a combination safe outside of the unit.

Your comment:

"That cop went from "drop it" to shooting her without trying other tactics."

At the beginning of the video, the cop was friendly and his service pistol was holstered. It was the girl who escalated the situation.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #50)

Sun May 12, 2019, 10:28 AM

63. I consider a razor to be potentially deadly

The girl did indeed escalate the situation, but the cop had enough time to say more than he did. He had time to engage her verbally and didn't get much beyond a repeated directive to drop the knife. When she began to run at him he defended himself with his weapon and I don't blame him for that, but I wish he'd had the training and the presence of mind to try to talk her down before it got to that point.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #63)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:26 PM

82. I don't think there's a jurisdiction in the country that considers a razor to be a deadly weapon

Upon arrival the police officer was friendly towards the girl and did not have his weapon drawn. As for oyur second point, it's possible he may have had the time to her verbally other then a repeated directive to drop the weapon.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #63)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:18 PM

101. What was he to say beyond "drop the knife?"

Ask her about her feelings? Ideally you can talk them down, but sometimes you just can't.

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Response to treestar (Reply #101)

Mon May 13, 2019, 02:07 PM

108. Lots of things he could have said

Including, yes, asking her how she felt and what happened that led to her being there with a knife. Maybe she would have run at him and forced him to use lethal force no matter what he said, but I think he should have tried. That's what I did at the psychiatric hospital where I worked. Sometimes I was able to de-escalate a dangerous situation and sometimes I wasn't. My point is that there are tried and proven techniques that sometimes work and that cop failed to even make the attempt.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:00 PM

38. A grown man with a baton couldn't hit her arm holding the knife?

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:22 PM

41. Cops in the UK disarm folks with a knife all the time..the fact that she is black

tells me all I need to know...
Maybe cops in the US need to take lesson from UK cops in disarming/deescalating in a knife situation

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Response to HipChick (Reply #41)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:45 AM

58. I don't think UK tactics would have worked in this situation

In the UK, they usually have a several police officers protected with shields who surround the armed person. In the video, there was just the 1st responder and it was pointed out in other threads that a 2nd responder was preparing a bean bag gun but didn't have time to use it before the girl made her move towards the 1st responder.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #58)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:37 PM

64. Not always....basically the cops here are not trained...

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #58)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:26 PM

77. Plus

they have armed police in Britain.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:46 PM

44. I think cops need to also be trained in mental health and other possible responses such as

yes asking her why do you want me to shoot you? Clearly she is not well. I just think there has to be other ways to respond to this situation rather than possibly killing the other person.

Maybe cops need to take Judo or Karate or something. Policing needs to be looked at with a new approach.

Why didn't he get back in his squad car if he was so damn scared until backup arrived. And when backup arrives would there be any trained mental health professionals present? The whole fucking thing needs a complete overhaul.

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #44)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:17 PM

69. Or maybe they can get babysitter training

and have refrigerators in all police vehicles to give out ice cream and hugs?

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #44)

Sun May 12, 2019, 08:06 PM

86. She was running towards him

It’s easy to judge what you never have to deal with. How do you know he had time to jump in the car? Or that anyone would have thought of that? The cops are not ALWAYS wrong.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:41 AM

57. Shot

He shot her 3 times , I can't believe it took 3 shots.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:50 AM

59. Is it too much to ask that she put the knife down?

The officer told her several times. Then she started running towards him.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:15 PM

73. I can't believe so many people here are defending the cop

Yes, he understood the use of force guidelines. His use of force will be cleared by his superiors and the DA.

But it's a 17 yo girl with a knife.

Please.

Don't want to take on any risk then don't become a cop. Study accounting or something, or learn a trade.


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Response to Mosby (Reply #73)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:26 PM

76. having a complete understanding that you live in a police state

is not equivalent to defending cops.

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Response to Rambling Man (Reply #76)

Mon May 13, 2019, 04:20 PM

109. we don't live in a police state

That's just you being hyperbolic.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #109)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:57 AM

111. some of you don't

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Response to Mosby (Reply #73)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:20 PM

102. So the cop is never to be defended?

Because the cop is always wrong? Some people have this ridiculously absurd idea that cops are out there looking to kill people every day. He is on administrative leave while they investigate. It is a big deal to them to get involved in these things. Maybe he should have just driven away and let her do what she wants and stab someone else.

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Response to treestar (Reply #102)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:25 PM

105. maybe he should have disarmed her

Which he could have easily done using his size, strength and training.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #105)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:52 PM

115. Is it standard to train police to disarm someone with a knife?

Likely that only happens in movies. If it's possible, we all ought to have that training, in case someone comes at us with a knife.

In fact as seen in the thread, they are trained that a knife can kill within 21 feet.

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Response to treestar (Reply #115)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:50 PM

117. they are trained in close contact fighting afaik

When I was a corrections officer we were trained to restrain people, but not close contact fighting, but once during a riot when a 250 lb kid was about to smash another kid's head with a cinder block I didn't just stand there, I stopped him.

And yeah, people get hurt, it's the nature of the job.

Don't like it, don't do it.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #117)

Wed May 15, 2019, 05:06 PM

118. The officer is on administrative leave

While they investigate. I doubt he has said he doesn't like it, and just acted as well as he could in the moment.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 04:25 PM

80. This is what can happen if you don't stop a teen armed with a butcherknife

Two-knife stabbing rampage at Pennsylvania high school injures 22, suspect in custody

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/stabbings-reported-pennsylvania-high-school-article-1.1750425. Many of the victims plus the people that tackled him received life threatning injuries. She chose not to give that cop much of a choice.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 04:33 PM

81. Having actually watched the video

-the officer's initial command to drop the knife and sit down were delivered clearly, with pauses between. There was nothing confusing about what he was saying.
-as she continues to approach he draws his gun and backs away. He keeps repeating drop it.
-when she says just shoot me, he backs up further, still repeating the words drop it
-by the time she starts to run at him I estimate he has backed up 100 yards or more
-as she starts to run he tells her to drop it one last time
-she takes 4 running strides, knife in hand, between the last command to drop it and the first shot

While 20/20 hindsight always allows options to criticize, it appears the officer was trying to buy time for backup to arrive and employ a less lethal alternative. I cannot fault the officer for shooting when he did. I do not think he is required to be stabbed a few times before defending himself.

Hopefully the young lady will recover and get the help she needs.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #81)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:40 PM

83. taser?

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Response to Demonaut (Reply #83)

Sun May 12, 2019, 09:12 PM

87. Problematic for a single officer

The effective range of a taser is only 10 feet, well within the 21 foot danger zone when facing someone with a knife.

If the taser misses or does not stop the attacker, there is no time to draw any other weapons. Likely the officer would be stabbed before he could drop the taser and engage hand to hand.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 11:34 PM

93. Necessary shooting, as far as I'm concerned.

Cop made every effort to deescalate and gave the perp every opportunity to stand down.

It sucks, but this is what self-defense is.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #93)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:25 PM

104. This sure has been a contentious thread

But I kind of agree with you. I'm not a cop and don't know any. What I know about the police is what I've "learned" from TV.

This cop sure seemed pretty reasonable. He wasn't out of control. He tried to de-escalate. But this girl seemed pretty intent on suicide by cop. I suppose he could have got back into his car, but he couldn't have know that might have been a better option until the girl had "pushed" him back past it. Maybe if he had gone behind his car door and stayed there while the girl advanced, getting into the car would have been an option. But he was using his judgment at a stressful time and chose to move backward. It seems he didn't draw his gun until he needed to.

I've read that once someone wielding a knife gets into within 20' of someone, they are a real and valid threat and that an armed response is acceptable.

Yes, it would have been great if there was a second officer. Or backup. Maybe a taser would have been a valid option, but I don't really know how accurate these might be at 20 feet with someone closing quickly on you.

In short, lots of maybes and what ifs, and 20-20 hindsight. But I would hold this one up as an out of control cop. Unlike the video the other day where a cop gave a kid with a cap gun less than one second to respond to his command before shooting him.

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Response to matt819 (Reply #104)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:41 PM

113. And you can bet there would be people

who would have objected to the taser, too.

Some people believe all cops are bad people and always wrong. I've seen this on DU before and don't understand how you get there - maybe they've had unpleasant run-ins with cops. Even so, that does not justify a broad brush.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:21 PM

103. Why is this girl still alive??

DUers have explained to me on multiple occasions for *other* similar cases that police are trained to shoot to KILL and to put their suspect down with no exceptions...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #103)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:42 PM

114. Yes, I recall that argument.

Once you shoot, you shoot to kill. So I guess they would see this cop as a bad shot.

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Response to ansible (Original post)

Mon May 13, 2019, 01:42 PM

107. I've added my voice to a number of threads where police have been clearly out of line

In this instance, I can't fault the police officer. If the training of the entire force is shifted to make them more like social workers, that would be fine with me. But that's not applicable in that video.

If someone else holding a lethal weapon charges at a police officer, especially a cop who has backed up as far as this fellow had, then the officer is understandably converting to self-preservation mode.

None of us wants to see a mentally disturbed individual get shot, but sometimes they leave little choice. It's sad but this isn't a case of an officer mistaking someone reaching for identification going for a gun. This is an identified weapon and multiple commands were given to drop it.

Hopefully the young lady gets the help she needs after that nearly-fatal experience.

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