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Wed May 8, 2019, 11:25 AM

Photo of Newborn Calf Drinking Milk From a Hose Will Make You Rethink Dairy (*Warning graphic photo)

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/newborn-calf-drinking-milk-hose/?fbclid=IwAR0ZJgJba8YkJz4egg5zyn1II-_KT6WOZ2PfOpiPRMmUPW-w29_ZvD-IlJs

Thanks to the brave efforts of undercover investigators and whistleblowers, the harsh reality of industrialized animal agriculture aka factory farming has become more common knowledge. However, many people are still duped by the marketers over at Big Meat and Dairy and believe that dairy cows live on idyllic green pastures and enjoy being milked.

Those “happy cow” commercials fail to show the true conditions of dairy farms, which are dismal at best, with cows lined up in rows like commodities, floors typically flooded with urine and excrement, and painful milking machines that cause injuries and infections like mastitis. Dairy cows are forcibly impregnated by unnatural methods, only to have their babies ripped away from them at birth so the milk naturally produced for the babies can be given to humans. From there, the calves are either sent to hutches to be killed for veal or raised to become the next generation of dairy cows. And yes, when dairy cows stop producing enough milk, they are slaughtered.






Usually just within hours of birth, calves are taken away from their mothers. Because male calves will not grow up to produce milk, they are considered of little value to the dairy farmer and are sold for meat. Millions of these calves are taken away to be raised for beef. Hundreds of thousands of other male calves born into the dairy industry are raised for veal. Many people consider veal to be cruel, but they don’t realize that veal production is a product of the dairy industry.

https://www.farmsanctuary.org/learn/factory-farming/dairy/

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Reply Photo of Newborn Calf Drinking Milk From a Hose Will Make You Rethink Dairy (*Warning graphic photo) (Original post)
Beringia May 8 OP
nycbos May 8 #1
MoonRiver May 8 #2
Quemado May 12 #77
delisen May 8 #3
Dr Hobbitstein May 8 #4
Beringia May 8 #5
Dr Hobbitstein May 8 #6
Blue_true May 8 #9
Dr Hobbitstein May 8 #11
cannabis_flower May 8 #28
ProudLib72 May 8 #38
zackymilly May 11 #47
EarnestPutz May 11 #53
handmade34 May 11 #55
EarnestPutz May 12 #65
LanternWaste May 8 #16
Dr Hobbitstein May 8 #18
handmade34 May 11 #56
Dr Hobbitstein May 12 #64
FBaggins May 12 #79
Codeine May 8 #7
cynatnite May 8 #8
Beringia May 8 #12
cynatnite May 8 #14
Drahthaardogs May 12 #67
Beringia May 12 #68
Drahthaardogs May 12 #69
Beringia May 12 #70
Drahthaardogs May 12 #71
Beringia May 12 #74
Blue_true May 8 #13
cynatnite May 8 #15
Blue_true May 8 #22
cynatnite May 8 #27
Blue_true May 8 #33
LanternWaste May 8 #17
cynatnite May 8 #19
jcgoldie May 8 #20
Doremus May 8 #21
Blue_true May 8 #24
Doremus May 9 #45
Doremus May 11 #46
Blue_true May 11 #48
handmade34 May 11 #57
Blue_true May 11 #59
muriel_volestrangler May 12 #66
Doremus May 13 #80
Blue_true May 13 #83
NickB79 May 8 #42
Doremus May 9 #43
Kali May 11 #52
Blue_true May 11 #61
Blue_true May 11 #60
Doremus May 13 #81
Blue_true May 13 #82
Blue_true May 11 #49
Opel_Justwax May 8 #10
Blue_true May 8 #25
handmade34 May 11 #58
Blue_true May 11 #63
Victor_c3 May 8 #23
Red Mountain May 8 #30
Cuthbert Allgood May 8 #26
WhiskeyGrinder May 8 #29
Red Mountain May 8 #32
Blue_true May 8 #35
Drahthaardogs May 12 #73
MLAA May 8 #31
Blue_true May 8 #36
MLAA May 8 #40
Kali May 8 #34
Red Mountain May 8 #37
Beringia May 8 #39
Tarc May 11 #51
Doremus May 9 #44
Mendocino May 8 #41
Tarc May 11 #50
Demovictory9 May 11 #54
Kaleva May 11 #62
Drahthaardogs May 12 #72
Rambling Man May 12 #75
Rambling Man May 12 #76
snpsmom May 12 #78

Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 11:26 AM

1. Blessed are the cheesemakers.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 11:34 AM

2. One of the reasons I am a vegan.

Thanks for posting. People need to know.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #2)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:36 PM

77. I went vegan, too.

Glad I did.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 11:46 AM

3. hideous cruelty. thanks for providing facts.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:33 PM

4. Damnit, now I want some cheese. nt

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #4)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:35 PM

5. Yes and you feel safe saying that because it is not human

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Response to Beringia (Reply #5)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:40 PM

6. Not sure if human cheese would taste good, but willing to try it.

Cow, sheep, and goats make some nice cheese, though.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #6)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:58 PM

9. You can buy human breast milk cheese online.

Some people make theirs at home.

Never tried any, but I don't see why human breast milk cheese is any nastier than cow, goat or sheep milk cheese. If proper precautions are taken, human breast milk cheese should be perfectly fine to eat.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #9)

Wed May 8, 2019, 01:00 PM

11. Hmmm... Guess I'll give it a try.

Never met a cheese I didn’t like.

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #28)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:52 PM

38. Eeeewww! All I ever needed to know about mother's milk I learned from Mad Max

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:52 PM

47. Just don't cut the cheese!

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Response to zackymilly (Reply #47)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:07 PM

53. Thank you for some needed perspective.....

....needed, at times, on these pages.

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Response to EarnestPutz (Reply #53)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:32 PM

55. needed perspective?

the original post offers real honest to goodness science...

the empirical evidence that industrial animal agriculture harms humans, animals, and the environment is strong... productive conversation should focus on what to do about this problem...

...70% of the world’s freshwater is used for agriculture, especially for farmed animals and animal-based agriculture which is responsible for about 14.5 per cent of greenhouse gas, about 9 per cent of carbon emissions and it takes 4000 calories of fossil fuel to produce 1000 calories of protein in a chicken for human consumption

...pitting vegetarians and meat eaters against each other is not necessary, what we need is to have a conversation about how to solve this problem that affects us all

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #55)

Sun May 12, 2019, 11:12 AM

65. Didn't respond to the original post. Responded to someone else's ....

....response to the off topic and somewhat silly sub-thread about breast milk.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #4)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:47 PM

16. The important thing is to consistently trivialize actual concerns.

Only then can we effectively maintain the fictional display of our own cleverness.

Nice work on that.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #16)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:53 PM

18. Nah, I just don't take propaganda from vegans seriously.

Picture is clearly out of context, and poster below gives lot’s of context without the emotional manipulation displayed in the OP.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #18)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:35 PM

56. not emotional manipulation

facts are in... commercial animal agriculture harms humans, animals and the planet... not too difficult to find the facts... the conversation should be real and not trivialized... animal agriculture is the greatest contributor to environmental concerns

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #56)

Sun May 12, 2019, 07:49 AM

64. Keep telling yourself that

Neither website in the OP is a legitimate source of unbiased information.
It is, indeed, emotional manipulation.

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #56)

Sun May 12, 2019, 05:19 PM

79. Of course it is

Most people don’t realize that veal is a product of the dairy industry? Seriously?

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:40 PM

7. We perpetrate a lot of horrible shit

onto our fellow mammals.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:49 PM

8. The mother may have died during childbirth...

This specific photo has little context. It will never tell the complete story.

I do take issues with stuff like this mainly because of my own experience. While growing up in Oklahoma we have taken milk from other cows to give to calves who were either too weak to suckle from their mom's teat or if the mom wasn't doing well or able to provide it herself for whatever reason. It's not uncommon for cows to have more than one calf as well.

We used hoses like this to feed them, too. It looks terrible, but it gives nourishment pretty quickly to a newborn who has likely been exerting a lot of energy trying to be born.

You all would hate to see other things we've done to newborn calves. A few times we've had to use chains to pull them out of their mom's bellies. We've hung them upside down from the barn rafters if the newborn calf isn't breathing. Never lost one doing that.

That's not to say cruelty does not exist anywhere else. It does. That much is obvious.

The reality is that we're an overpopulated planet of billions and this country has hundreds of millions to feed, too. The demand is high and to get the product out to a country full of hungry people means doing it quickly as possible. It's messy and it's ugly. It will be cruel, too.

Maybe someday someone will figure out a way to meet this demand in a way that everyone will be happy with, but I wouldn't bet on it.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed May 8, 2019, 01:08 PM

12. I think it is standard to take away the calf, because the farmers want the cow's milk



Also baby male cows are immediately gotten rid of.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #12)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:42 PM

14. Not where I worked at...

That may be true in some places. It's not a universal practice.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #12)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:24 PM

67. A modern dairy cow produces way more milk than

Her calf can use. Selective breeding.

As for veal...what does it matter. Bull calves are excess. The meat is used. Far better than wasting it. I don't see the concern.

We have several local dairies and the cows are pastured, and milked twice a day. I know a goat dairy intimately and it's spotless and the animals are well cared for.

Most of this is propoganda

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #67)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:48 PM

68. Some people are not aware that babies are separated from their mothers


And many people object to that.

It is not propaganda just because you do not agree with it or do not feel touched by it.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #68)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:06 PM

69. When they said "Forcibly Impregnated" I laughed my ass off

I grew up on a real, honest to God, cattle ranch. This is indeed propoganda perpetuated by the anti-meat crowd.

Here's a newsflash, ALL domestic animals are separated from their mothers.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #69)

Sun May 12, 2019, 02:41 PM

70. They are forcibly impregnated

what else would you call it.

And not all domestic animals are separated at birth, like milk cows. From what I have read, cattle cows are encouraged to nurse their young, but not milk cows.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #70)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:07 PM

71. Lol. Cows come in season and are receptive to breeding

They don't "choose" to be pregnant or not. They aren't cognizant like that. Hormones tell them it's tine to breed, then they do.

Can we fucking stop the anthromorphizing of cattle please?

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #71)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:28 PM

74. I think when someone says forcibly impregnated, they are referring to artificial insemination

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed May 8, 2019, 01:11 PM

13. Veal is Milenniums older than the concept of Veganism, which is a late 20th century concept.

I agree with you, high volume production of anything is not going to be pretty.

When I cut into an onion it weeps white fluid. Of course I don't feel that I killed it as I would if I chopped off a chicken's neck to start preparing a meal. But my concept of what was living is defined by how I view what is alive and what isn't. The chicken moved, viewed, breathed and made noises so I saw it as alive. But the onion interacted passively with it's surroundings, but because of that passivity, I never view it as living.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #13)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:43 PM

15. I've killed my share of chickens...

We usually lopped the head off and sometimes they'd still bounce around after the fact. We let them finish dying and then cleaned them. I hated that job more than any other because it was messy and time consuming. I turned city for a reason.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #15)

Wed May 8, 2019, 07:26 PM

22. You turned city because you can go to the supermarket and the chicken is already dead and dressed

and even portioned out.

I grew up in the country like you, and still have a childhood memory of watching a hog get slaughtered, actually it was pretty fast, the hog came up to eat something and a bullet was put through it's brain and it's throat immediately cut. Pretty savage stuff if one looks at what happened.

Human beings have been meateaters since our origin. Our bodies have evolved over that time to gain a lot from meat consumption. Can we all become Vegans and be optimized after many centuries? Yes, but why? During the interlude we would go through extra efforts to get plant based nutrients that our bodies take from meat without any effort at all. Do people eat too much meat and the wrong type of meat? Certainly and that is an area that we can get better at.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #22)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:03 PM

27. That was only a small reason...

The work is hard and grueling. Sometimes it was harder than when I went through basic training in the Army.

My husband grew up country, too, His family raised hogs. Their boys grew up and moved out. His parents couldn't run the place anymore, too.

I didn't mind it when I was young and my body could handle that level of work. I hated the backwards thinking that came with a lot of it. Not everyone fortunately.

But I found a life outside of the crappy small farm town I grew up in. It was just ten times better and I wasn't going to age ten years ahead of schedule either from the horrible work. I wanted out.

My sister stuck with it, though. She lives in the country with horses, sheep and a few others. They raised their daughters in the rodeo lifestyle along with the rest of it. Now, her daughters are growing up. The oldest just graduated from nursing school. The horses are never ridden anymore. They're not that old, too. They have three miniature horses as well which do nothing but eat. They're not good for anything work-related. Maybe for parties for little ones, but they never do anything with them at all.

My sister is getting older as is her husband. I've told her they can't do this forever and the kids are practically grown. They're leading their own lives.

My sister and her husband hold down full-time jobs and take care of the place. They're not even happy anymore the way I see it.

But no one seems interested in changing things for the better.

Either way, you couldn't pay enough to go back to that life.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #27)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:29 PM

33. My uncle was a worker-farmer.

He worked his city job by day and his farm in the late afternoon into the night. At best the farm was break even regardless of the hard work.

Farming is like any other food related business, scale means everything. Operations that have the money and scale to sell a product for pennies compared to someone else wins in the end, even if their product is inferior. That is why I think that family farming (except for massively big family farms) is doomed, even with government propping them up

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:48 PM

17. Is your anecdotal experience a standard or an aberration within the industry?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #17)

Wed May 8, 2019, 02:57 PM

19. The area I lived at was fairly normal...

But it wasn't vast dairy country and it wasn't a supersized industrial farm. I worked at an average farm just like hundreds of thousands of others around the country.

I don't believe the farming community as a whole should be painted with the same brush with stories like these.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed May 8, 2019, 03:10 PM

20. You are correct

There are all kinds of things wrong with "factory farms" such as raising animals in confined spaces, often that are overflowing with manure and so they pump the animals full of antibiotics and steroids proactively. But taking a picture of a newborn calf which is being fed in an assisted method is not in itself an example of animal cruelty. Many of the practices that farmers do that may seem "cruel" are attempts to keep the animal alive. I realize that some folks are against raising animals for food under any circumstances, but in my opinion that is a lifestyle choice. Domesticated animals can be raised in humane ways and live productive and happy lives. Sometimes you have to do things that may seem inhumane to insure that. I have dairy goats and a small herd of cows. I've had to pull calves many times through the years and the practice looks rough as you said, but if you keep an animal alive that would have died then its a responsibility of an animal owner. Your dog may not like everything the vet does to treat it, but its your responsibility to give it medical treatment even when its unpleasant.

When baby goats are just a week old I take them and use a hot iron to burn where their horns are coming in. It seems barbaric and I of course hate it because they scream in pain. Anyone viewing this practice would say its animal cruelty. But it lasts a few seconds and when you release them they go right back to running around and nursing. The upshot is that they live long productive lives on the milk-stand so people can enjoy fresh milk and cheeses and all natural soaps. They spend years grazing tranquilly in grassy meadows. Without "disbudding" them in this way that causes them pain, you find dead goats with broken necks with their heads caught in fences. Or you have a goat with its eye put out or gored in the side by its pen mates. Or worse it puts out a kids eye.

Another misconception I hear frequently about animal husbandry is that giving antibiotics to animals is bad practice because its abused by factory farms. I agree that antibiotics can be made ineffective and food unsafe when they are abused to cover up unhealthy conditions. But in a small farm situation, if you don't use the medicine you have access to to keep your animals healthy then you aren't a responsible owner.

Just some thoughts to echo the previous post.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed May 8, 2019, 04:58 PM

21. Demand? If the ultimate goal is to feed hungry people we wouldn't be raising livestock at all.

Feed-to-food ratio is extremely poor, something like 10-1. Meaning for ever 10 calories of feed/energy we give to livestock we receive 1 calorie of food. If the grains currently used to feed livestock were instead used to feed people, we could erase world hunger. That's not an insignificant fact to be casually dismissed with "but bacon."

There are a few additional side benefits: fewer greenhouse gases, less cruelty and better health. Worthy goals I think.

The cruelties necessary to factory farming aren't occasional as you imply. They're daily occurrences, multi-thousand-a-day occurrences. We slaughter 39 million cows/yr. in this country. They're kept in feedlots, on concrete, in their own waste, forced to bear offspring which are then stripped away to live a life of misery. Bucolic farm life is a fallacy we want to hold on to to assuage our consciences as we stuff our faces.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #21)

Wed May 8, 2019, 07:50 PM

24. You make a lot of good points, but also made one error, IMO.

There is no argument that growing plants directly for people food instead of feeding animals first is by far the most efficient, if not the best route nutritionally. And I think that as the world's population continues to grow and climate change becomes worse, we will have to rely more on plants and less on animals for food, which is not a bad thing.

But, as people move to a higher plant based diet, their own production of methane that comes out of them goes up in proportion to the plant content of their diet. Things can be done to reduce the gas and some work partially. But if we switch from 39 million cows farting to 7 plus billion people farting regularly, your argument that we will dramatically reduce green house gases is at best specious. I could argue that we may in fact greatly increase them.

Like everything there is likely an optimum medium where a person consumes a low amount of animal based products but subsist mostly on plants. That would have the effect of dramatically reducing the number of animals farmed for food and the need for factory animal farms. But, if we go to a more plant based diet, we have to fight against abuses like deforestation to produce more cropland as is happening in the Amazon rain forest.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Thu May 9, 2019, 02:11 PM

45. One word: Beano nt

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Sat May 11, 2019, 06:46 PM

46. Sorry for bumping this older thread but I just ran across this graphic

It speaks specifically to the point you were making.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #46)

Sat May 11, 2019, 07:36 PM

48. What the graphic does not cover is the impact of people eating

the foods on the list that you posted. Human gas release should go in reverse order, with a human releasing more gas as a result of eating beans than beef. When I ate beef regularly, my gas release was non-existent. Whenever I eat beans, I run into a frequent problem for around 12 hours, I don't know the volume but I do know that eating plants like beans and corn set me off. I also have tried stuff like Beano, it did not work for me. I stand by my point, if we put 7 plus billion people on a plant diet versus 39 million cows, we likely will have more methane release.

I wish that people that are advocating would run controlled experiments to detail the amount of average methane release in a number of scenarios. What is happening instead is people run out and get the first piece of information that "proves" their point without looking into important secondary aspects of that information.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #48)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:42 PM

57. faulty comparision

the main reason cows produce so much methane is because they are ruminants and humans are not

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #57)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:00 PM

59. Maybe. But I know that when I eat salads (a lot), fruit (a lot) and any

vegetable, my gas and blotting go way up, even when I drink plenty of water. Also, Vegetarians and Vegans are known to be a lot gasier than people that have meat in their diet.

I am not a meathead, personally I think that people eat WAY too much meat. What I am saying is that in the absence of controlled experiments, you claiming that people going to an all plant diet will reduce gross methane release is supposition.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #59)

Sun May 12, 2019, 01:15 PM

66. No, not 'maybe'. Ruminants' methane production (mostly burps) from eating grass is far larger

than the tiny amount of methane produced by humans eating vegetables. People have done the controlled experiments; it's not supposition, it's known science. Digestion of grass required fermentation over a long period, and produces significant methane. You don't produce much from salads, beans etc., even if you think you do.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #48)

Mon May 13, 2019, 02:56 PM

80. There is no fiber in meat, that's why no gas. It sits in the intestines and rots until the body can

manage to expel it, often with great difficulty and the purchase of various laxatives and newer designer drugs from BigPharma ($$$).

Fruits and veggies are fiber-rich, good for the body and digestion. The more of it we eat, the better our gut becomes in processing it with less and less gas. In the meantime there are OTC meds available to decrease the gas. Beano is only one, if it doesn't work for you there are many others. You should give them a try.

Frankly I've never heard this particular argument offered before by a pro-meat eater. It's certainly novel, I give you that, lol. Unfortunately it fades as soon as one gives it any thought.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #80)

Mon May 13, 2019, 05:50 PM

83. I have direct experience that says eating the correct amount of meat works.

I have never been the type to eat a 1 pound steak. But even six ounces of meat is likely too much for most people. I now occasionally eat a lean beef burger once every few weeks, after staying away from the commercial stuff for years. I limit the size of the pattie to four ounces and eat vegetables on the burger for flavor, no cheese. The result? My bowel movements are regular and soft. My body clears the burger in around 3-4 hours, meaning that if I eat it at 7pm, my stomach is clear by 11pm. My body balance is better, energy better, weight better, strength better, endurance better. My experience is just what I noticed, it doesn't speak for other people, but my experience is why I have become an advocate of limiting meat consumption and figuring out what my body needs.
My body does not like a large amount of animal fat, it does not even like a large amount of plant based oil. Knowing that allows me to tune in a diet that works for me.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #21)

Wed May 8, 2019, 11:10 PM

42. Without using livestock to cycle soil nutrients, you are left with synthetic fertilizers

Nothing is better for maintaining healthy, living soil than manures.

Beyond that, livestock like cattle can be raised on land that is marginal for crops. The central US, for example, is dependent on irrigation from the Ogallalla Aquifer. This water source has only a few decades left before depletion, and climate change will see to it that this land will be unfarmable once that fossil water is gone.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #42)

Thu May 9, 2019, 01:55 PM

43. It's still an energy loss. Leaving the land vacant is the better use not only

from an environmental standpoint but from an ethical one as well.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #43)

Sat May 11, 2019, 08:18 PM

52. wrong

especially in drier, brittle environments

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Response to Kali (Reply #52)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:15 PM

61. Good point.

I think that we are better off in some areas bringing in non-native plants that are water storers, like aloe vera and agave. If the northern forest in California had been riddled with wide bands of such plants or with open planted field, the forest fire there last summer may not have been so devastating. The alternative would be to not populate those regions with people and let nature do it's thing (burnoffs followed by regrowth, rinse and repeat after a few decades). But trying to enforce mandatory depopulation will fly like a lead blimp.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #43)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:05 PM

60. So we should starve people?

I think that we can leave some land for trees, but that requires farming techniques that have not yet matured (those techniques would also use a lot less water).
Until we do better farming, leaving land vacate is only going to lead to starvation.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #60)

Mon May 13, 2019, 03:04 PM

81. We starve people when we expend more energy in producing food than we receive in return.

Eventually we run out of resources to produce the inefficient foodstuff and we starve. It's like overdrawing our bank account.

That's what happens when we continue to expend our energy and grain into producing livestock. It returns less food than we give it. The very definition of unsustainable.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #81)

Mon May 13, 2019, 05:35 PM

82. So what is your solution, other than people should not eat meat, which in itself

is an unsustainable end.

My view:
If the world is going to keep growing the majority of food outside in soil (a pretty unlikely proposition as the world population continues to increase), then that agriculture has to be naturally more efficient. Efficient is not manufacturing chemical fertilizers that accomplishes limited objectives but weaken soil by killing key organisms. Plants will have to be planted more densely so that each acres produces a multiple of what one now produces. And yes, people have to be conditioned to eat only the amount of meat that their bodies require, not in great excess as is the current situation, leading to inefficient digestion of meat.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #42)

Sat May 11, 2019, 07:46 PM

49. Actually, animal dung is very good, but.

But using green manure (plants to supply nutrients to the soil and promote soil biodiversity) along with practices like no-till farming has been shown to produce rich soil that yields nutrient dense produce, unlike chemical fertilizers that deplete soil of some nutrients and kill valuable soil organisms like earthworms and nitrogen fixing bacteria.

When the country was young and fertilizer was scarce, farmers farmed near rivers that occasionally overflowed and which promoted plant growth, with the plants decaying into the soil when their growth cycle was done, farmers found naturally rich soil, until they depleted it with their farming practices.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:59 PM

10. There is nothing wrong with using animals for food. n/t

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Response to Opel_Justwax (Reply #10)

Wed May 8, 2019, 07:59 PM

25. It has been done all of our existence as a species.

There is something wrong with abusive practices against animals. But as a couple of posters have pointed out, what looks like abuse to an untrained eye may in fact be life saving activity.

I eat meat, though far less than the average person. I find that my body functions better and feels better when I eat mostly plants with some meat included in my diet.

I have nothing against Vegans, some of the people here that have self-identified as Vegans are really cool people. But others seem interested in lecturing about the evils of eating any meat at all, that I take offense to.

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Response to Opel_Justwax (Reply #10)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:47 PM

58. culturally, that is what

we are conditioned to believe... other cultures believe otherwise... why is it not okay to eat dogs in the U.S. when most think it is ok to eat pigs (just as personable and smart as dogs)?

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #58)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:23 PM

63. Large numbers of people do eat dogs.

Last edited Sat May 11, 2019, 10:53 PM - Edit history (1)

We just don't do it here in the USA and in the countries that our non slave ancestors mostly came from.

Here is the thing. Meateating traces back to the earliest humans. Animals, including dogs were domesticated for either food or to be of aid to humans. Veganism is a late 20th century concept. Even in India, which comes the closest to being totally vegetarian, meat is consumed, just not cow meat.

In this country we can cut our meat consumption by 75% and still be sound nutrition wise.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 07:43 PM

23. Wait, I don't understand...

How can it be true that cows lived in factory farms when on the front of the milk carton, I always see a happy cow roaming in a huge green pasture?

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #23)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:25 PM

30. Best option in all circumstances regarding animals......

Know your farmer. Best option. You're lucky if you do.

Not an option? Choose a certifying organization.

https://agreenerworld.org/certifications/animal-welfare-approved/

Other organizations out there as well.


It's a lot of work to put that much effort into where your food comes from and how it is grown. Pick your battles according to what matters most to you. Every bit helps.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:01 PM

26. I read your title as "from a horse" and didn't know what I was going to see.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:13 PM

29. Humans are excellent at not thinking about the suffering behind products they eat, use and wear,

whether animal-based or not.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #29)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:28 PM

32. true

I think making them think is ultimately more productive them shaming them for using those products.

Winning hearts and minds.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #29)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:34 PM

35. Most people are by nature unthinking. That does not make them evil in itself.

Some people respond to education. Others simply revel in staying clueless.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #29)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:14 PM

73. Actually, I grew up on a ranch and we had a butcher business

And feed lot. There is really not as much "suffering" as they like to pretend in the beef industry.

Chicken farms can be cruel. Large hog operations can be pretty bad as well, but not all.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:27 PM

31. Just one of the animal cruelty reasons I am vegan

Side benefits are my health and the health of the planet (though it is likely to late to save the planet)

Edited to correct typo

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Response to MLAA (Reply #31)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:36 PM

36. What about deforestation to grow more food plants like soybeans?

There are upsides and downsides to everything. Taking an absolutist position is likely to enhance downsides in some directions.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #36)

Wed May 8, 2019, 09:55 PM

40. Hi Blue True (edited to add link)

Below is just a quick article about a study by researchers at Oxford University and published in the journal Science.

If you have a sincere interest, I will direct mail you the names of a couple of books or dvds and an amazon gift card so you can buy them. I’ve spent the last 5 years or so reading and hearing speakers about plant based diet and impact on health, animal cruelty and environment.

Let me know 🙂

https://www.livekindly.co/global-land-use-beef-vegan/

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:31 PM

34. no it won't

but flamebait nonsense from less than credible sources will make me rethink anything else you post.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 08:47 PM

37. For the record

If they're tube feeding a newborn calf it's probably with colostrum.

Vital to that calf's survival. Been there, done that. Mother's immunities are passed along to the baby.





Colostrum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bovine colostrum and spray-dried colostrum powder

On the left is milk expressed on day 4 of lactation, and on the right is breastmilk expressed on day 8. Colostrum gives the milk a yellow hue.
Colostrum (known colloquially as beestings,[1] bisnings[2] or first milk) is the first form of milk produced by the mammary glands of mammals (including many humans) immediately following delivery of the newborn.[3] Most species will generate colostrum just prior to giving birth. Colostrum contains antibodies to protect the newborn against disease. In general, protein concentration in colostrum is substantially higher than in milk. Fat concentration is substantially higher in colostrum than in milk in some species, e.g. sheep[4][5][6] and horses,[7][8] but lower in colostrum than in milk in some other species, e.g. camels[9] and humans.[10] In swine, fat concentration of milk at 48 to 72 hours postpartum may be higher than in colostrum or in late-lactation milk.[11] Fat concentration in bovine colostrum is extremely variable.[12]

Newborns have very immature and small digestive systems, and colostrum delivers its nutrients in a very concentrated low-volume form. It has a mild laxative effect, encouraging the passing of the baby's first stool, which is called meconium. This clears excess bilirubin, a waste-product of dead red blood cells, which is produced in large quantities at birth due to blood volume reduction from the infant's body and helps prevent jaundice. Colostrum is known to contain immune cells (as lymphocytes)[13][14] and many antibodies such as IgA, IgG, and IgM. These are some of the components of the adaptive immune system. In preterm infants some IgA may be absorbed through the intestinal epithelium and enter the blood stream though there is very little uptake in full term babies.[15] This is due to the early "closure" of the intestinal epithelium to large molecule uptake in humans unlike the case in cattle which continue to uptake immunoglobulin from milk shortly after birth. Other immune components of colostrum include the major components of the innate immune system, such as lactoferrin,[16] lysozyme,[17] lactoperoxidase,[18] complement,[19] and proline-rich polypeptides (PRP).[20] A number of cytokines (small messenger peptides that control the functioning of the immune system) are found in colostrum as well,[21] including interleukins,[21] tumor necrosis factor,[22] chemokines,[23] and others. Colostrum also contains a number of growth factors, such as insulin-like growth factors I (IGF-1),[24] and II,[25] transforming growth factors alpha,[26] beta 1 and beta 2,[27][28] fibroblast growth factors,[29] epidermal growth factor,[30] granulocyte-macrophage-stimulating growth factor,[31] platelet-derived growth factor,[31] vascular endothelial growth factor,[32] and colony-stimulating factor-1.[33]

Notably in humans a lack of colostrum production is linked to a mutation in the ABCC11 gene that occurs in most people of East Asian descent. This gene is also one the determining factors in wet or dry type earwax, as the mammary glands are a form of apocrine gland.[34]



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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #37)

Wed May 8, 2019, 09:21 PM

39. They take calves away from the mothers

What is so hard to understand about that. Obviously if they let the mother and calf have their time together, the calf would get its nutrients. Male calves are automatically taken away because they are of no use.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #39)

Sat May 11, 2019, 08:14 PM

51. Male calves are quite useful

Burger King for lunch today.

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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #37)

Thu May 9, 2019, 02:04 PM

44. Because mom cow can't deliver it in any other way than piping it through a hose...

I wasn't aware factory farming has influenced bovine evolution to such a degree that cows are no longer able to nurse in the normal way.

And I'm sure the factory farms are ever so careful about separating post partum colostrum from all other milk. Because it's healthier for the newborns destined for veal crates. smh

Oh the handstands we perform to rationalize the taking of life to satisfy our selfish desires.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 10:46 PM

41. Bite Size Vegan

[link:|

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 08:12 PM

50. One out-of-context photo and editorializing form some vegan whackadoos

Not much to see there.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 09:10 PM

54. ugh

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2019, 10:20 PM

62. Nobody here is going to contribute to a retirement home for unneeded cows

As demand for dairy drops, excess cows, some who have just recently become mothers, will be murdered.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #62)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:08 PM

72. And eaten.

We cow murderers like to eat our victims.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #72)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:30 PM

75. rare

not medium, but rare with blood coming out. Preferably with fried onions.

yum.

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Response to Beringia (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2019, 03:31 PM

76. Most folks know jack shit about

agriculture, farming, ranching, or most anything else.

These are the same folks who complain about 18 wheelers, but still like to go buy shit in a store.

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Response to Rambling Man (Reply #76)

Sun May 12, 2019, 05:00 PM

78. Yep. n/t

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