Ocasio-Cortez backs giving prisoners voting rights

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) on Thursday voiced her support for giving incarcerated felons' voting rights, while warning opponents they risked “looking completely + utterly out of touch w/ the reality [of] our prison system.”

"To avoid looking completely + utterly out of touch w/ the reality our prison system: Instead of asking, “Should the Boston Bomber have the right to vote?” Try, “Should a nonviolent person stopped w/ a dime bag LOSE the right to vote?” Bc that question reflects WAY more people," Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) tweeted.

Link to tweet

?s=20

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) sparked national discussion about voting rights for felons in jail during a CNN town hall Monday.

The 2020 candidate said that all prisoners, including domestic terrorists such as the Boston Marathon bomber, should retain the right to vote.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/440770-ocasio-cortez-backs-giving-prisoners-voting-rights

[guillaumeb]

1. Recommended.

In the history of racial politics, the prison system replaced the plantation after Reconstruction.

Free labor, and a largely black, disenfranchised population.

[JoeOtterbein]

2. Very good point. n/t

[Baitball Blogger]

3. I don't agree. You lose rights when you go to prison.

I think it's great that voting rights should be restored once your time is served, but this is one of those issues that is just going to make progressives sound out of touch with reality.

I'll take my bag of popcorn and just sit it out, and watch.

[leftofcool]

4. Me too

This won't go over well with most of the country, even Democrats

[Cuthbert Allgood]

50. Not going over well isn't a reason to not support it.

Slavery caused the civil war. Should we have continued to avoid that delicate subject that pissed off a lot of people?

[Blue_true]

88. It is about having enough of a clear head to pick the right fights.

Ending slavery in America was a just fight, having convicts vote is a questionable quest that will only open us up to failure on more vital fights that we must wage.

[JonLP24]

107. They started felony disenfranchisement because slavery ended

And the 15th amendment guaranteeing the right to vote regardless of race.

[Blue_true]

120. Then we do criminal justice reform.

That is NOT having prisoners vote. As I said, if we go for prisoners voting, we tie an anchor around our ankles that republicans will gladly toss into a deep lake.

[JonLP24]

121. I think this is part of criminal justice reform

Bernie Sanders can make fact based arguments which he is and so can a lot of people. Democrats were all for it in Florida now Florida wants former felons to pay their fines first before they can vote -- which Bernie Sanders highlighted. I think Vermont's policy prevents Republicans from playing games with voting rights.

[Blue_true]

122. No it is not. It is something that Bernie and AOC pulled out of thin air

and it is a distraction from more important efforts.

[JonLP24]

123. He actually hasn't changed his position

He always give the same answer that he supports Vermont's policy he even gave it in the Fox Town Hall no big deal. Because that has always been answer is the reason she asked that question framing it with the worst of the worst and Cuomo tried to trap him in a gotcha. BTW Cuomo should be boycotted not because of his questions but because of Kamala birthism.

Chris Cuomo Blames Kamala Harris For Not Addressing Racist 'Birther' Hoax
He later deleted the tweet and said his comment was misinterpreted.

CNN anchor Chris Cuomo came under fire Tuesday when he seemed to suggest in a since-deleted tweet that there’s no proof of where Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.) was born and that the onus is on her to prove right-wing “birther” conspiracists wrong in their claims she’s not eligible to run for president.

He weighed in after CNN contributor Ana Navarro slammed a far-right conspiracy theorist for falsely insisting that Harris — who was born in Oakland, California, and announced her candidacy for the Democratic ticket on Monday — could not legally be president because her parents had lived in the U.S. for less than five years before having her.

“The longer there is no proof either way, the deeper the effect,” Cuomo wrote after saying, “hopefully ... the legit info [about] Harris comes out to deal with the allegation ASAP.”

Harris’ press secretary Ian Sams quickly took down Cuomo on Tuesday, slamming the anchor for implying there’s some “mystery about the ‘legit info’” regarding her birthplace and birthright citizenship status.

Link to tweet

?s=19

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c4755b8e4b027c3bbc6057e/amp

Plus this was Islamaphobic

[JonLP24]

106. Most Democrats support it

They were polled immediately after. 30% overall support it but I don't give a rat's ads if something is popular or not. There are too many felonies and too many people locked up.

[LiberalFighter]

6. I don't support those convicted and serving time having voting rights.

But once they are out they should all have their voting rights automatically restored.

I find it troubling that not all states have the same standards on this issue.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

49. What is the reasoning for the loss of voting rights?

They don't lose their citizenship. Isn't voting pretty vital to citizenship?

[AncientGeezer]

57. Not at all.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

59. So if you were asked what a key right central to citizenship was, you would say what?

Because if you were being honest, I would think voting would HAVE to be top 3. In a democracy/republic, being a citizen means you get to decide how the decisions are made in that system, i.e. you vote. It's not called a franchise for nothing.

[AncientGeezer]

61. I'd say the Bill of Rights..the ONLY rights Govt has little to no say over. Voting isn't there.

Being a citizen does not mean you get to "decide" anything. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the "right to vote" is sacrosanct. Women didn't get the right until the 19th amendment....and that's not 100% protected.

We have restrictions on who can be a House member, Senate, POTUS......if you are a convicted felon you can't have a firearm(unless you get a court ordered relief of the restriction) ....if you are a convicted pedophile you can't live near schools, if you commit, and are convicted of a felony.....it comes with a cost.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

66. Those doesn't have to do with the role of citizenship.

Those are about how government is restricted in the social contract.

Interesting that you talk about the inequities of voting over the years. Perhaps this is yet another one we need to get over. And, side note, women of color didn't fully get the right to vote until 1964.

[NYC Liberal]

60. Minors can't vote and they're very much citizens.

[AncientGeezer]

63. Wish I'd thought of that point....well played.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

68. Meh. Not so much.

[AncientGeezer]

77. Why not? At what age? 12-13...18 When?

[UniteFightBack]

98. Still no rec's huh? Fooling no one. nt

[AncientGeezer]

127. I'm not hunting "rec's"...couldn't care less about a "rec"

[Cuthbert Allgood]

67. They aren't full citizens until they reach the age of majority.

Even their first amendment rights are not fully there until they are adults.

[NYC Liberal]

71. Yes they are "full citizens".

Not sure where you got the idea that they are not.

[AncientGeezer]

81. Again...not really. Citizens yes but not fully vested..can't vote....

can't own property, can't sign a contract, can't get married....you get it

[NYC Liberal]

86. Ultimately, people who commit crimes voluntarily waive their rights.

Because people choose to commit crimes. That’s entirely their choice.

[Blue_true]

91. Exactly. nt

[JonLP24]

108. Punishing them over it is counterproductive

Can't get jobs can't get apartments civil death is one of things we brought over from England.

[NYC Liberal]

113. People who commit crimes should not face punishment at all?

[JonLP24]

114. No I mean the civil death part of it

After they get out felony follows them for the rest of their life. They can't get a job, can't get an apartment. They are either homeless or have no choice but to resort to crime. I remember when I was homeless I remember so many people in this predicament. One person told me if he could go back he would make sure not to commit a felony. Most normal people instantly regret their crimes as soon as they see the blue lights. I also don't believe in taking their right to vote which began after the 15th Ammendment. Policy affects them too and believe they should have a sigh especially since we lock up people that later turn about to innocent. I believe the Central Park 5 should have had the right to vote.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

119. Can they form a binding contract?

Do they have the right to ownership of property in all cases?

[Blue_true]

90. And a person that does a crime, by choice, chose to give up some rights until he or she

finish serving punishment for that crime.

[Blue_true]

89. They are repaying a debt to society.

In such cases, they DON'T have full rights. The issue of whether some people that are in jail deserve to be there is a seperate issue entirely.

[backscatter712]

8. No, yoinking voting rights is blatantly abused.

See Florida, where if you have brown skin, the state goes out of its way to invent a justification to give you a felony rap, and thus keep you from voting. Classic vote suppression.

The punishment of prison is not being allowed to leave. There's no real justice-related reason not to let prisoners cast ballots from their cells.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. You lose some, but not all. And you don't lose your citizenship.

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. Canada allows incarcerated felons to vote

And so far the lack of gratuitous, Jim Crow cruelty seemed to have worked out for them.

[Chin music]

18. Pretty sure countries like Finland/Sweden and others do too.

Could be wrong, but, they are ahead of the curve on prisoner rehabilitation. pretty sure russia doesnt. Or china.

[uponit7771]

20. America legal system is unfair at best

[brewens]

31. Yup. Do that and felons will also get to keep their gun rights. This is something we

really don't need to pick a fight over.

How many would be responsible voters anyway? Of course the right will claim we need their votes. They would be way overestimating how many would vote for democrats anyway. White supremacist may not be a huge percentage of the prison population, but we won't be getting any of their votes.

I'm all for restoring their voting rights easily if they have done their time and completed parole and probation.

[thesquanderer]

35. re: "Do that and felons will also get to keep their gun rights."

Ridiculous.

No one is saying they keep EVERY right. But they already keep most of them (as they should)... they are still entitled to first amendment rights like free speech and freedom to practice their own religion, they still have (and by definition, are the main beneficiary of) the right to be spared cruel/unusual punishment, the institution still cannot discriminate against them on the basis of their color, and so forth. I am assuming you do not want them to lose those rights as well, correct?

No right is absolute, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, and there is obviously a safety rationale to taking away an inmate's right to possess firearms. But what rationale is there to take away their right to vote?

[Chin music]

52. +1

[AncientGeezer]

56. Voting isn't in the Bill of Rights....most of your mentions of rights.

Voting isn't mentioned as a right in the Constitution until the 15th...women couldn't vote until the 19th passed.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

69. White women couldn't vote until the 19th passed.

Took another half century for women of color.

So as we add more people to the list of those that should be able to vote, perhaps felons should be the next.

[AncientGeezer]

76. That's not going to happen. felons...and shouldn't EVER

[Blue_true]

92. White women and African Americans could not vote

due to being treated as second or third class citizens, when they did NOTHING to earns those designations. Lawfully convicted felon, by their own choice, gave up some rights. We should spend our time and energy fighting for criminal justice reform and fairness in sentencing and not waylay those efforts by fighting something that we are almost certain to lose on.

[thesquanderer]

124. True, voting is not guaranteed in the bill of rights. But does that mean...

...that inmates should automatically lose every right that is not in the bill of rights? What is the rationale for automatically imposing additional punishments beyond incarceration itself?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

48. Nice slippery slope of that doesn't need to happen.

How many responsible voters are there now? You do know that people of color make up the majority of the prison population, right? For non-violent crimes?

Why do people have to forfeit the right to vote when they go to prison? Why is that one of the rights they need to give up? Especially when they are used for the population count for representation.

[brewens]

72. Go find me the stats of people in prison that bothered to vote regularly in the first place.

I would suspect that is lower than the general population for sure. I they had voted, I wouldn't say we know how that would break down. Maybe a little on the side of democrats?

So fix the unfair incarceration problems and leave the voting rights like it stands.

[Joe941]

37. This.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

47. Why specifically the right to vote?

And shouldn't there be a discussion of that question given the disproportionate amount of people of color that are in prison for non-violent crimes?

[Blue_true]

87. I totally agree.

Prisoners, by definition, are paying a debt to society and by their crime, gave up some rights while serving that time (like the right to freely go where they want and do what they want, as long as those actions are legal). But once most of them have done their time and served probation without incident, they should regain those rights (except for rapists).

I won't argue that some people should have never been in prison, like someone caught with a joint in my state, if the police officer catching the person does not give him or her a break and take the joint and stomp it into the ground, but let the person go with a warning. Such debates should happen, but I think that by insisting that prisoners vote, we would be over-reaching in a manner that will cause us to lose the more important argument.

[JonLP24]

105. Do you know the history of felony disenfranchisement?

Those that support it don't know the history and are out of touch themselves. The problem with taking someone's right to vote away is they don't know they get it back effectively making it voter suppression.

I support Vermont's policy.

[dogman]

5. "Bernie Sanders Got It Right on CNN: Felons Ought to Be Allowed to Vote"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-got-it-right-on-cnn-felons-ought-to-be-allowed-to-vote

"Prisoners lose many of their rights when they go to prison. They can’t serve on a jury from a prison cell, or own guns; both of those are probably reasonable proscriptions. They probably should not own guns. But prisoners do not lose all their rights in prison. They are entitled to practice their religion and can challenge the conditions of their confinement. Taking away prisoners’ liberty is already a heavy punishment. Allowing them to cast an absentee ballot is not an unreasonable privilege.

The most important consequence of allowing prisoners to vote is that it would remove the incentives for “prison gerrymandering.” In most U.S. states, prisoners are counted by the census based on where they are incarcerated, not where they are registered to vote. Because most large prisons are in sparsely populated rural areas, prison complexes have an important effect on gerrymandering.

Many prisoners are racial minorities or people who live in urban areas, which means these places lose voting population, while more conservative areas gain nonvoting population. This advantages Republican congressmen in places like upstate New York, who benefit from inflated populations for redistricting purposes, but have nothing to fear at election time. Prisoner disenfranchisement therefore contributes to a structural disparity that causes Congress and state legislatures to be more conservative than the public at large."

[JustAnotherGen]

7. She's wrong and so is Sanders

Shawn Berry should just be happy to have his life. He should never be able to vote. He and his two buddies who dragged James Byrd to his death lost that right.

Two have been executed (one yesterday).

He should just be happy to be alive.

Now it's all or nothing. Either mouth breathing inbred racist maggots who lynch people are included or not.

If she and Sanders say yes - BLM needs to hit them with everything they've got. AOC can face a primary . . . and a strong young black woman could beat her on this issue. She needs to get right with minority women on this - or we will turn against her.

[sheshe2]

10. Posted here.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128790670

[JustAnotherGen]

28. They don't care Sheshe

They just don't care. Berry lost his right to vote while serving a life sentence for dragging a black man down the road from the back of a pickup truck and they don't care about this crime against the individual and humanity.

That thing is a sick little fuck who needs to sit in jail.

[thesquanderer]

42. So it's about vengeance?

Viscerally, I get it. Taking away their freedom isn't enough.

But beyond that, what is the justification for taking away the rest of their rights, and would you use that rationale to also take away the others I discussed in Post 35?

[JustAnotherGen]

45. Wait

Do you mean to tell me - seriously -

James Byrd's one murderer that is left - should have FULL RIGHTS of CITIZENSHIP?


Explain this to me. Seriously. I'm a 'dummy black person'.

Explain to me why a PRISONER needs to vote.

You do realize there is a difference between a murderer who lynched a black man because of the color of his skin - who should be THANKFUL he escaped the death penalty (is two partners did not) - needs to be voting on Civil Rights for black people.

[thesquanderer]

125. Unless the sentence includes revoking citizenship, then yes...

...I'd say prisoners should have the rights of citizenship, to the extent that it is reasonable (i.e. does not impact the safety of others, etc.)/

A handful of abominable worst case scenarios should not be used justify disenfranchising countless others. Some consequences of this are interestingly discussed in Post #117 and Post #5.

But if after reading those posts, if you'd still like to take the voting right away, are there other rights they have (at least in some states) that you'd like to take away as well?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. "Either mouth breathing inbred racist maggots who lynch people are included or not."

Pretty sure there are at least a few out there who were never caught, tried or convicted. They have their voting rights. And IMO this country works best when we open a wide door and let some deplorables in, rather than trying to narrow the path and keeping good people out.

[JustAnotherGen]

24. I'm - they are in the country

Your family experience and how you have experienced America is most likely different than mine.

They want me dead? Their predecessors got away with their racist shit against my family?

Fuck those guys.

White racists in America are going to be saying "let bygones be bygones" in a couple of years - they can go ahead and get the hell on. Then and their mamas.

oh but JAG that's mean!

Really?

Good.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. I hear you.

And I used a terrible metaphor. “Opening the door” is more about allowing more rights to more citizens than restricting rights and letting fewer citizens exercise them. Not immigration.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. All these people lost their right to vote too

Wish they could have a say in a system that wrongfully puts them behind bars

[JustAnotherGen]

23. When they get out of prison

They should have the right to vote.

But while in prison? No Fucking way.

I seriously would not want some low level NYC mobster voting in school board elections in Batavia or Attica.

That's stupid.

ETA: the NYC (in particular Staten Island) Cosa Nostra are known for their racism towards black folk. Ndrengheta not so much - but Cosa Nostra the traditional "Mafia" in America - yup.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

53. What's the reasoning for taking away a vital right of citizenship?

They keep their citizenship. So why, exactly, do they lose their right to vote? And "that's stupid" and "I don't like it" aren't reasons for why they should lose their right to vote. Something a bit more constitutional or logical would help.

[JI7]

100. the problem there is they are in prison in the first place.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

51. So what about the black guy in prison for having an ounce too much weed?

He can't vote either. And, trust me, we can exchange examples back and forth and you will lose because there are WAY more people of color in prison for non-violent drug crimes than there are Shawn Berrys of the world.

What about white supremacists that aren't in prison. They are fucking assholes, too. Should they still be able to vote?

[sfwriter]

9. Just so the racist origins of the practice don't get lost

...in all the pearl clutching. There are several reasons to restore and maintain those rights.


Precedent and lack of controversial outcomes::

Vermont and Maine already do. It has done no harm.

Racist Context:

This policy of prisoner disenfranchisement puts us in line with Aparthied South Africa, for much the same reason. It is a policy that disproportionately disenfranchises African Americans.

Racist origins: (this is closely related to felon disenfranchisement, for historical reasons):

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/opinion/the-racist-origins-of-felon-disenfranchisement.html

"The white supremacists who championed such measures were very clear on their reasons. In 1894, a white South Carolina newspaper argued that voting laws needed to be amended, lest whites be swept away at the polls by the black vote. In 1901 Alabama amended its Constitution to expand disenfranchisement to all crimes involving “moral turpitude” — a vague term that was applied to misdemeanors and even acts not punishable by law. The president of the constitutional convention argued that manipulating the ballot to exclude blacks was warranted, because they were inferior to whites and because the state needed to avert the “menace of Negro domination.”

and

"The debate looks a lot different in Maine and Vermont, states where there are no black populations to speak of and racial demonization does not come into the equation. Both states place no restrictions on voting rights for people convicted of even serious crimes and have steadfastly resisted efforts to revoke a system that allows inmates to vote from prison.

Maine residents vigorously debated the issue last year, when the Legislature took up — and declined to pass — a bill that would have stripped the vote from some inmates, whose crimes included murder and other major felonies. Families of murder victims argued that the killers had denied their loved ones the right to vote and therefore should suffer the same fate.

Those who opposed the bill made several arguments: That the franchise is enshrined in the state Constitution and too important to withdraw on a whim; that voting rights keep inmates connected to civic life and make it easier for them to rejoin society; that the notion of restricting rights for people in prison was inconsistent with the values of the state."


International norms:

"Many countries fully recognize the right of incarcerated citizens to vote. Today, 26 European nations at least partially protect their incarcerated citizens’ right to vote, while 18 countries grant prisoners the vote regardless of the offense. In Germany, Norway, and Portugal, only crimes that specifically target the “integrity of the state” or “constitutionally protected democratic order” result in disenfranchisement. The European Court of Human Rights has forcefully defended the voter franchise, going so far as to condemn in 2005 Britain’s blanket ban on voting rights for prisoners, calling it a violation of human rights. In December of last year, after 12 years of resistance to the ECHR’s decision, the UK partially relented by allowing prisoners on temporary release and at home under curfew to cast their ballots."

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/prisoner-voting/

[mountain grammy]

17. Excellent! thank you.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. Wait

I'm not seeing where they speak to white PRISONERS being able to vote while in prison, while disenfranchising black law abiding Americans.

Folks are confusing current PRISONERS with those who have paid their debt to society.

Sanders and AOC are throwing something out there without bones, structure or HOW.

Let's ask him - who works the polls?
Who pays for the voting booths?
Paper or electronic?
Presidential or ALL?
What if a school board election is going on? Different ballots for prisoners?

[sfwriter]

43. I'm glad you asked.

This is a good topic to learn more about, which is, of course, the point of AOC and Sanders bringing it up. I'd say we are largely in the educational phase of this movement.

You said, "I'm not seeing where they speak to white PRISONERS being able to vote while in prison, while disenfranchising black law abiding Americans."

It's called structural racism, or a society is structured in a way that excludes substantial numbers of people from minority backgrounds from taking part in social institutions. Structural racism does not require overt racism or labeling of the targeted group to function. You can get the same effect by demographic selection that targets the racial target group disproportionately. For example, redlining that locked mostly African Americans out of the home market post WWII by cutting them off from federally backed loans. The criteria were geographic, but in practice, racist.

America's prison system has pretty obvious racist origins. It begins with the end of slavery.

The XIII Amendment reads:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Note the exception for slavery.

Hundreds of thousands of slaves took to the roads to find their families and former slave industries floundered as their labor force left. In the deep south vagrancy and loitering laws were used to return them to chains and lease them back to industry. As detailed in the linked article, but also in numerous books on the subject as well, post Reconstruction restrictions on voting were added to the system because they would disproportionately effect African Americans. I posted some quotes on the directly racist origins of the policy.

The criminal justice system disproportionately disenfranchises blacks who have, by design, always been disproportionately targeted. This has evolved into a system with structurally racist support as overt racism has been driven from the public sphere. The two states who don't disenfranchise their prison populations are very white and never passed these racist policies to begin with because there was no racial force animating their policy process.

Read the full article I linked to for more on this.

As to the rest of your questions, yes, those are questions for the local elections boards and state legislators, not AOC or Sanders. Look to Maine and Vermont for your examples. It works there just fine.

It's only the latest in a long line of racist policies that have been changed with no apparent collapse of society. We figured out how to serve together in the military, eat at the same lunch counters, sit together on busses, and drink from the same water fountains. It's time we closed one more racist loophole that literally excludes a disproportionate number of minorities from civic life.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. I support voting rights for all incarcerated citizens. I also think it's not a useful campaign

issue.

[sheshe2]

16. No Alex.

Let's go back to the Boston bomber.

My OP.


When does a victims rights take precedence over a convicted terrorists right.
BS recently spoke out about a felons right to vote. Fact is , I am all for it AFTER they do their time.

Bernie Sanders and the Song of America
Unlike any other politician in modern U.S. history, Sanders has revived a language of social and democratic rights

snip

And then, at a CNN town hall in Manchester, N.H. Bernie made “the first big misstep of the 2020 Democratic primary season.” Responding to an audience question, Sanders made the statement that he supports voting rights for felons. Even the Boston Marathon bomber or sex offenders. https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/04/25/bernie-sanders-and-song-america


Don't even get me going here. This is my Boston and domestic terrorists tried to kill and maim as many people as they could.

Tsarnaev was born in Kyrgyzstan. As a child, he emigrated with his family to Russia and then, when he was eight years old, to the United States under political asylum. The family settled in Cambridge and became U.S. permanent residents in March 2007. He became a U.S. citizen on September 11, 2012, while in college.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_Tsarnaev

And once again, they fail to grasp the quality of Bernie that is at the heart of his unique appeal. Unlike any other candidate in the Democratic Primary field and any other candidate in modern American history, Sanders talks in terms of expanding the inalienable rights of every citizen.https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/04/25/bernie-sanders-and-song-america


No. He does not. Where are the rights of the victims? The victims died, in this case, at the hands of the man that BS says the one that executed them should vote while imprisoned after taking away the life and vote of the victim. This is wrong on so many levels.

This is incredibly wrong. Fix the prison system, the courts, the profiling and the fucking cops that allow this to happen.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128790250

Hey Alex. Do the hard work and fix the dayum prison system and not give every hardened criminal the right to vote. Do not come to Boston and tell us that Tsarnaev has the right to vote.

Tell that to Boston Strong. My friends were there, two doors from the second blast. The windows were blown out. One of the managers ran out and stood over the body that would later find to be 8 year old Martin. She was telling the cop to funnel people through the store to escape.



Stop tweeting and do something. I want results not rhetoric.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. Yeah

This is just dumb. And people are using racism to TRY and manipulate black people into going along with it.

I remember the James Byrd murder. I was 25 when that happened. One of his murderers is still alive (Berry).

I don't think these folks realize that because of Trump - a generation of black folks have been placed into a retaliation mode - myself included.

Shoot my own foot to hurt the racists? You betcha!

[JI7]

101. it's such BS also. the republicans already try all they can to suppress votes of black people

who are free and not in prison and without any criminal record.

we know what 's going to happen if prisoners are allowed to vote. it's not exactly going to be free and the racists who run the places will be the ones with the power over who will get the votes.

and being able to vote does nothing to make things better for wrongly imprisoned people.

[jcmaine72]

19. I disagree.with both AOC and Bernie.

I know they're dead, but the mere thought of people like Charles Manson, Ted Bundy or Jeff Dahmer casting a vote is utterly repugnant to me. IMO, fiends like those, along with pedophiles, serial rapists, etc forfeit their right to be part of the human race by virtue of their hideous, sadistic crimes, let alone their rights as American citizens.

This issue is a turkey. Any Democratic candidate running with this as part of their platform will make themselves unnecessarily vulnerable to criticism and would probably end up hurting themselves with moderate and Indie voters. Why risk that?

[uponit7771]

21. THIS IS GOOD !!! AOC and Sanders understand how racist and tilted the US in-Justice system is and

... for non-violent offenders this is a good thing.

[intelpug]

22. prison voters

At this point obviously the" nonviolent person with a dime bag" has already lost their freedom by commiting a crime serious enough to warrant prison, not jail, but prison. people don't lose their voting rights over misdemeaners but commiting felonies will certainly make it happen which is what we are talking about here. has anybody really thought this through yet I may ask? Prisons and their populations are not known for their great depths of well meaning , benovolent wisdom. once incarcerated, time stops for most people and the longer there, the less revelant are the issues of the outside world. Prisons transfer people all the time to separate gang leaders from their crew, to protect informants from harm ect,. So consequentialy one prison often times has a large percentage of people from other states placed there, when election rolls around do they vote as residents of the state they came from, or the state their in? How far would their right to vote run? Only to a few federal contests such as the presidency or could they vote on local matters as well?, if given the vote could they legaly be given just part of it and not all? Lets say for instance a medium sized city decides to run a bond issue for say a new waste treatment plant which is badly needed. Polls show favorably, public opinion is generally behind it, it looks like a go,,,untill,, day after election it fails by a good margin because three thousand guys up there behind the wall with literally no skin in the game decided that you and your town didn't need it. I feel these things must be considered.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. Thank you

A capo in the Staten Island mafia should not be voting in school board election in Attica.

This idea will be played out over and over again in the GE. He MUST retract this statement now.

[Generic Other]

83. I can just hear the ads: Democrats just gave Willie Horton the vote!

And there would be local problems. Perhaps making them vote absentee would work. Your Staten Island don should also not be electing a sheriff out West or judges around the country. I can see what a tricky issue this is.

Compromise is to re-instate rights after doing time. That's fair.

[Blue_true]

93. I think that you are largely missing the point by bringing in small percentage events.

A person caught with a dime bag of Pot should not be in prison to begin with, Bernie and AOC and us as voters should change laws to make that happen, that is where our efforts should be centered.

A violent person that does a felony, a rapist and other types of real felons should lose their right to vote while in prison and on probation. Rapists should permanently lose their right to vote and even to freely move around in society once free (police should know where they live and work).

Those are the key issues in regards to prisoners voting.

[BlueTsunami2018]

29. Most people are not going to be on board with this.

Bring your logical arguments all you want, this is a losing issue. We need to get back to normal and we’re saying crazy shit like this that will drive away people who we need to vote for us.

It’s almost like we want to lose.

[backscatter712]

46. Then we need to learn to frame our arguments, so even those with acute Foxbrain can appreciate them.

It's not "We want the psycho Nazi murderer to be able to vote".

It's "We want our laws concerning elections to be fair, and resistant to system-gaming like gerrymandering and vote suppression." That means there need to be strong protections to the right to vote, even to criminals.

Don't talk about neo-nazis. Talk about people caught with an ounce of weed being railroaded and losing their rights. Talk about black people being punished far more harshly than white people for the same crime. The white guy gets probation and a deferred sentence. The black guy caught with the same bag of weed gets prison, and loses rights for life.

Frame it that way.

[BlueTsunami2018]

99. We need to not even consider this.

It doesn’t matter how it’s framed, most people are going to see it as wanting Mafia goons, Crips, pedophiles and serial killers to vote. It’s a terrible issue.

If we want to complain about something along these lines, complain about how red districts count prisoners as constituents for gerrymandering purposes. But this whole let prisoners vote thing is a loser. It could sink the entire election.

[skylucy]

103. +10000

[JonLP24]

109. Im willing to argue with conservatives over this and I have

I feel hopeless when the resistance comes from my own party.

[Kurt V.]

30. She's good at this.

[AlexSFCA]

32. Appaling

what are they trying to do? make sure we lose in 2020?
Voting rights and prison reform do not belong in the same sentence. Convicted felons serving prison time lose freedoms for the duration of sentence and, of course, it includes voting rights. Upon release, they should be able to have those voting rights back along with other freedoms. Where is common sense? I used to like AOC, I no longer trust her, she is now blindly following BS by spreading the BS. This is an equivalent to lunacy on the right, e.g. minors should be able to buy guns cause of 2nd amendment.

[Blue_true]

94. Mostly bingo. I still like AOC, but she is shoveling blind BS on taking up prison vote. nt

[Ron Obvious]

34. The non-violent guy with a dime bag shouldn't be incarcerated in the first place

That's the real issue with our "justice" system. As for letting the incarcerated vote: terrible idea and a surefire vote loser.

[dalton99a]

39. Bingo

[lapfog_1]

55. This.

I will vote Dem come Nov next year... but BS and AOC just lost me as a supporter in any primary (House, Senate, President)

and the repukes will beat us over the head with this sort of statements.

[lapfog_1]

116. I don't support the right to vote for incarcerated felons

you want those convicted of stalking their girlfriends or wives to have the right to own guns?

See... when you are convicted of a crime, you lose rights. I support those convicted to lose the right to vote while they are serving their sentence.

No where in that position did I say that I am a white supremacist or that I am in favor of sending minor drug offenders to prison.

In fact I stated the opposite when I agreed with the poster that I responded to when they stated "we incarcerate too many people for minor crimes, but those people who are convicted and sent to prison lose their right to vote while serving their sentence"

[JonLP24]

117. 15th Ammendment. The reason why we have voter disenfranchisement is because of white supremacy

Jim Crow’s Lasting
Legacy At The Ballot Box
Denying voting rights to
people with felony convictions
has roots in racist laws.

In 1901, delegates drafting a new constitution for Alabama knew their mission. “Within the limits imposed by the Federal Constitution,” convention president John B. Knox explained, the delegates aimed “to establish white supremacy in this state. If we should have white supremacy, we must establish it by law — not by force or fraud.”

Unable to explicitly ban black voters without violating federal law, the resulting state constitution declared persons “convicted of a felony involving moral turpitude” could not vote without having their rights restored.

Alabama’s 1901 Constitution remains in force today, and felony disenfranchisement schemes with similar origins still shape electorates throughout the country. According to the Sentencing Project, more than 6 million Americans cannot vote due to unprecedented mass incarceration and a patchwork of laws in 48 of the 50 states. Increasingly, debates over the practice of conditioning voting rights on criminal record reference the laws’ historically racist motivations.

Felony disenfranchisement has an undeniable racial present, not just past. Black Americans constitute 2.2 million of the disenfranchised, banned from voting at four times the rate of all other racial groups combined. Its history betrays a truth the nation has continuously refused to recognize in the experience of its most intimately reviled child: enslaved Africans and their descendants.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/08/20/jim-crow-s-lasting-legacy-at-the-ballot-box

There is so much information on this. Most of the people that oppose Vermont's policy don't know the racist history behind felony disenfranchisement.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

36. Where would the prisoners vote?

Would they vote absentee in the town where they were last arrested? Or in the town where the prison sits? If the latter, the prisoners could "own" the town, even elect a prisoner as mayor, other prisoners as city council members and local judges. It could get interesting.



I guess I'm not a fan of Ocasio-Cortez' stand on this issue.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

54. Where they are in prison.

They are used for population counts in that town for representation. They should have a say in the representation they are helping bring about.

[JonLP24]

111. Exactly

[sarisataka]

38. Clarification question-

What about people who are incarcerated but not convicted such as someone waiting for a bail hearing? Are they allowed to vote from jail?

[dalton99a]

40. People in pretrial detention are eligible to vote.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/409/512/
U.S. Supreme Court
Goosby v. Osser, 409 U.S. 512 (1973)

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/589/374/1869768/
Murphree v. Winter, 589 F. Supp. 374 (S.D. Miss. 1984)
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi - 589 F. Supp. 374 (S.D. Miss. 1984)

etc.

[sarisataka]

41. Thank you

The system used to allow those people to vote could likely be applied to those incarcerated. The question then is back to should they be allowed to vote.

For those incarcerated for felonies I would say no. They are removed from society for a reason and while they do retain many right they do not and should not have all rights. Once they have completed their sentences I would not object.

[maxsolomon]

58. The DU Vengeance Squad is always ready to deploy.

Thanks for feeding them Red Meat!

On a positive note, I didn't see any calls for Prison Rapes in the responses. Progress!

[Blue_true]

95. Calling groups of people names for voicing legitimate positions is a surefire way to lose an

argument.

[maxsolomon]

129. "The Vengeance Squad"?

On nearly every DU thread discussing America's vast, racially-biased Prison Population, a significant number of commenters are ready to jump in to advocate, or take glee in, extra-judicial punishments (like prison rape and prison beatings), lengthy prison terms, & harsh prison policies. They may consider that a "legitimate position", but they're sure not providing a lot of persuasive content.

Here we have a reasonable, albeit controversial, proposition (let Prisoners vote) that reflects policies in place in several other nations that America purports to be more enlightened than.

So of course, reasonable discussion is out of the question. Instead, plenty of black-and-white pronouncements about crime and punishment. Probably from elderly White people who have never been on the wrong side of the law.

Regardless, no one ever "wins" an argument on DU. You, for instance, didn't change my mind, nor I yours.

[Arazi]

62. I'm with Bernie and AOC on this 100%

But like the bathroom issue, Rs will use it to bludgeon Dems as too fringe.

Thing is everybody knows people who are wrongly convicted or maximally sentenced for non-violent drug crimes. That's a big population that will love this idea so who knows.

It is however the right thing to do- these people are citizens. They have not lost the right to vote imo

[AncientGeezer]

65. 1 quick question.....someone convicted of murder...vote?

They took away their victims right to vote....?

[Arazi]

70. Yes, everyone

[AncientGeezer]

75. But the dead person...deprived of ALL rights...really?

[Marengo]

64. I support this, and it's a good start. Next, scrap all offender registries and restore RKBA once...

Conditions of sentence are completed

[moondust]

73. Other countries:

International Comparison of Felon Voting Laws

[Renew Deal]

84. Thanks

[JudyM]

74. No one wants the Nazis to march in Skokie, either, but if they're prohibited, free speech is limited

I struggle with both examples, but there’s no clear place to draw the line, which means we have a slippery slope, which is what Bernie pointed out in answering the question.

[Renew Deal]

78. The ads write themselves

This is a dumb hill to die on.

[leftofcool]

79. No kidding

[Blue_true]

96. Yes. And repughs will enjoy slowly bleeding us out before killing us if we don't quickly bury such

a bullshit idea.

[skylucy]

104. I agree!

[Alea]

80. No Ef'ing way

Give voting rights to murderers, that took away every right their victim ever had? Bernie just talked his way out of ever winning the presidency and AOC will be primaried or lose to a rebub.

JFC some people here want the Boston bomber to have a say so in our gov't? OK, loony tunes is what this is. Lets not even have an election. Just hand trump 4 more years while we come up with even worse ideas for 2024.

[Alea]

82. Heather Heyer - Voting rights revoked August 12, 2017, Charlottesville, VA

Sure lets give her murderer back the right to vote and and have a say so in our Government...

[Galraedia]

85. Ocasio-Cortez is talking about NONVIOLENT offenders...

Bernie Sanders is talking about allowing both violent and nonviolent offenders, which is crazy. I normally agree with Sanders on a lot but allowing convicted murders and domestic terrorists the right to vote is freaking insane. I caution fellow Democrats to watch out for people posting this kind of thing as it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russian trolls started promoting this to divide the democratic base.

[Blue_true]

97. AOC is fully supporting Bernie on this issue.

She just used a ridiculous example of a person that SHOULD NOT be in prison to disarm her critics. Her position IS NOT about criminal justice reform, that would have the dime bag holder not going to jail or prison. The idea of convicted people that are actively serving a sentence is a non starter, if we want to lose elections that we can win, then we will fail to give it the quick death that it deserves.

[JonLP24]

112. He supports the right to vote even for terrible people

Which is Vermont's policy.

[gtar100]

102. I appreciate her making the distinction between violent crimes and

non-violent crimes. That's kind of the point, isn't it, about prisoners' right to vote. I think we can all agree some people in prison rightly should be stripped of all rights as a citizen for heinous crimes but that is not the whole story when you consider the number of people convicted because of the "war on drugs", three strikes shit and police corruption.

I hate how nuanced, complex issues get hit with black-and-white, dumbed down, headline arguments. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing issue. That's how we get divided.

[no_hypocrisy]

115. I'm a criminal defense attorney. I endorse this proposal.

"Breaking the law" (i.e., violating a criminal statute) and being convicted of a felony has NOTHING to do with losing one's citizens' rights. When you are de-naturalized and lose your citizenship, then it's a different story.

Individuals in prison can be there for something as violent as murder or passively for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (As for the latter, I prevented a client from 15 years in jail when he was accused of throwing a "victim" to the sidewalk and leaving him to potentially die. In fact, my client was a bouncer who escorted a very drunk and belligerent patron who was threatening to kill another patron in the bar. The drunk patron fell to the sidewalk and hit his head on the sidewalk. My client was tagged as a perpetrator when the police came, not someone who called 911 for help. And yes, he was black. Though not my primary mission, I saved his right to vote.)

[Captain Stern]

118. I say let all the prisoners vote.

I mean all of them. Murderers, rapists, child molesters, robbers, arsonists, drug dealers, drug users, embezzlers, thieves, etc......every damn one of them.

Because if we ever get to the point where the incarcerated folks in this country are a voting block that's big enough to be catered to......then, we're already going to have way bigger problems to worry about than who is allowed to vote.

[PupCamo]

126. guess I'm out of touch