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Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:04 AM

"Dear America..."-Werner Herzog

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Arrow 73 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Dear America..."-Werner Herzog (Original post)
Tanuki Apr 20 OP
Ferrets are Cool Apr 20 #1
BSdetect Apr 20 #2
cilla4progress Apr 20 #3
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 20 #7
cilla4progress Apr 20 #17
certainot Apr 20 #39
whathehell Apr 21 #43
JudyM Apr 21 #44
whathehell Apr 21 #46
JudyM Apr 21 #49
whathehell Apr 21 #51
certainot Apr 21 #55
whathehell Apr 21 #59
certainot Apr 21 #67
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 21 #68
certainot Apr 21 #69
SayItLoud Apr 21 #53
benfranklin1776 Apr 20 #13
pangaia Apr 20 #21
benfranklin1776 Apr 20 #30
pangaia Apr 20 #31
benfranklin1776 Apr 20 #32
spanone Apr 20 #4
Cary Apr 20 #5
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 20 #9
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 20 #10
Cary Apr 20 #12
Collimator Apr 20 #6
murielm99 Apr 20 #8
Pepsidog Apr 20 #11
certainot Apr 20 #14
lunatica Apr 20 #25
certainot Apr 20 #38
Hotler Apr 20 #15
jalan48 Apr 20 #16
snort Apr 20 #20
jalan48 Apr 20 #22
snort Apr 20 #23
jalan48 Apr 20 #24
lunatica Apr 20 #26
jalan48 Apr 20 #27
DontBooVote Apr 20 #18
keithbvadu2 Apr 20 #19
FakeNoose Apr 20 #28
smirkymonkey Apr 21 #45
DLevine Apr 20 #29
democrank Apr 20 #33
YOHABLO Apr 20 #34
BarbD Apr 20 #35
Evolve Dammit Apr 20 #36
whathehell Apr 21 #41
patphil Apr 20 #37
BlueJac Apr 21 #40
whathehell Apr 21 #42
smirkymonkey Apr 21 #47
whathehell Apr 21 #50
BeyondGeography Apr 21 #52
whathehell Apr 21 #54
True Blue American Apr 21 #57
BeyondGeography Apr 21 #60
True Blue American Apr 21 #62
BeyondGeography Apr 21 #63
True Blue American Apr 21 #64
BeyondGeography Apr 21 #65
True Blue American Apr 21 #66
smirkymonkey Apr 21 #70
True Blue American Apr 21 #56
whathehell Apr 21 #58
True Blue American Apr 21 #61
whathehell Apr 22 #73
Yeehah Apr 21 #71
whathehell Apr 22 #72
infullview Apr 21 #48

Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:18 AM

1. Very sad statement...

but probably true

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:22 AM

2. And the watching 1/3 will become very anti killer 1/3 once they are defeated.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:23 AM

3. True..

I'm 64. I've always known / wondered that 1930s Germany was not an historical anomaly.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:44 AM

7. Rwanda was not an anomaly either. Same technique Germany/Rwanda/Trumpland: The BIG Lie


Whoppers.

"No collusion, no obstruction, game over. Thanks for wasting everyone's time, Democrats. But you can't see the report."

Too many (9,000+ just from tRump) to even type out one more. But a lot of it revolves around whipping up the base and vilifying the Center and Left.



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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:32 AM

17. Yep.

Just what I was thinking.

And NA genocide, slavery - stains on our nation.

Balkans, etc., so many places and times in history!

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:54 PM

39. they can't do it without talk radio - the only medium capable of the repetition needed

we even let 88 universities support 270 limbaugh stations

since the twit 'left' and dem party and its allied orgs keep ignoring talk radio

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Response to certainot (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:45 AM

43. I agree..

that the Dems have been foolish in ignoring RW Radio. I partly understand their reluctance -- Freedom of Speech issues -- but
they should have done more than just shrug their shoulders and give up -- They let the Fairness Doctrine die under Reagan with barely a whimper, and seem oddly clueless about the importance of messaging and the need to counter-message the Right. I don't get it.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #43)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:57 AM

44. Failure to fight this tooth and nail is a huge mistake.

We need a legislative team dedicated to figuring out a strategy to disarm or weaken their propaganda. We are weaker on psychologically persuasive messaging, should be dedicatedly working with Lakoff and excellent PR folks to develop themes and powerfully evocative sound bites to wake people up to the truth and that we are not the same as them. We have profoundly different values.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #44)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:59 AM

46. I'm not sure what you mean .

Could you explain further?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #46)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:11 AM

49. Strongly agreeing with you. Edited my post.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #49)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:30 AM

51. Thanks.. I'll read it now.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #51)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:17 AM

55. discussions about messaging and framing are pretty useless as long as the left ignores talk radio

messaging/framing doesn't work as long as we ignore talk radio.

it's the right's most important advantage - they sit around in their think tanks and watch for democrats to make progress with framing/messaging or they announce their objectives and then they design a propaganda campaign to counter it -

then they can blast it out of 1500 coordinated radio stations merely by pushing it through a few of the national blowhards, with limbaugh in front. they lay out a smorgasbord of prechewed talking points for the media to pick through and they can lie, distort, attack and dems don't even notice the massive buzz in 40 states with 80 senators until it's too late and established as 'fact', and then half the country is ready to bend over for trump, and the media is claiming americans don't want impeachment, and dem politicians believe it.

and unlike fox that messaging/framing dominance can be coordinated to local and state level

here's framing that would actually get to the root of the problem - every response to any trump supporter and trump himself should be prefaced with "well, that's what limbaugh says but..."

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Response to certainot (Reply #55)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:29 AM

59. I don't disagree..

That's why I mentioned "counter messaging". ..I'd support reinstating the Fairness Doctrine if that were possible.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #59)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:14 AM

67. yeah i guess my message was for judym. but artificial intelligence makes the fairness doctrine

unnecessary though imo

it means talk radio can be digitized, searched, monitored, and advertisers can be listed with little listening required.

it means stoprush x 100 is possible as soon and the left figures that out. it means the ad industry will have to start applying market forces to political talk radio - asking clients if they really want to support global warming denial and traitors in the white house.

that means the end of the rw monopoly

all it would take is the left/dems to start

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Response to certainot (Reply #67)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:31 AM

68. Very interesting analysis and prognosis. I think I agree with your inight here. . . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #68)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 12:30 PM

69. thanks - there are democrats out there somewhere who can make it happen, and it needs to before

the next elections

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:00 AM

53. And the rule of law...nt

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:09 AM

13. Sadly not.

It appears to be a common strain of savagery embedded in the human genome that can be activated under the right circumstances by barbaric sociopathic “leaders” That’s what was so disturbing to Milton Mayer, a noted American sociologist who tried to determine how the German people allowed the Fascist horror of the Holocaust to happen. At the end he concluded what was most disturbing was that they were no different than other peoples everywhere, including us, and that we must remain ever vigilant to ensure such a colossal evil never happens again. He also emphasized that repeatedly the people he interviewed all said it happened incrementally and that had they resisted at the beginning when it was possible to stop the Nazis before they achieved total domination of German society it could have been avoided. That’s the key takeaway lesson for us at this time.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/978689.They_Thought_They_Were_Free

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Response to benfranklin1776 (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:16 PM

21. "....and that had they resisted at the beginning.......... it could have been avoided."

I will, if I may, use that statement as an OP and elaborate.....
THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE is too relevant not to be an OP.

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Response to pangaia (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:20 PM

30. Please feel free to do so by all means

Thank you as you say it’s a point that needs made in these dark times when the same malignant fascist playbook is being run again by the same type of megalomaniacal, sociopathic dictators and would be dictators. That oft used admonition by Santyana about not learning from history and dooming ourselves to repeat it is one of the most insightful warnings in the bloody chronicle of manunkind.

Here’s a fuller excerpt where Mayer underscores that point:

https://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

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Response to pangaia (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 04:15 PM

32. Thank you!

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:23 AM

4. K&R...👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:35 AM

5. Thank you.

I cite this often and appreciate it whenever anyone reminds us.

This book explains a lot:


https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/authoritarian-dynamic/7620B99124ED2DBFC6394444838F455A

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Response to Cary (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:48 AM

9. Interesting. Book description


Book description

What is the basis for intolerance? This book addresses that question by developing a universal theory about what causes intolerance of difference in general, which includes racism, political intolerance (e.g. restriction of free speech), moral intolerance (e.g. homophobia, supporting censorship, opposing abortion) and punitiveness. It demonstrates that all these seemingly disparate attitudes are principally caused by just two factors: individuals' innate psychological predispositions to intolerance ('authoritarianism') interacting with changing conditions of societal threat. The threatening conditions, resonant particularly in the present political climate, that exacerbate authoritarian attitudes include national economic downturn, rapidly rising crime rates, civil dissent and unrest, loss of confidence in social institutions, presidential unpopularity, divisive presidential campaigns, and internal or external crises that undermine national pride or confidence. Using purpose-built experimental manipulations, cross-national survey data and in-depth personal interviews with extreme authoritarians, the book shows that this simple model provides the most complete account of intolerance.

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Response to Cary (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:50 AM

10. See also Robert Altemeyer, an American at U of Manitoba

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:01 AM

12. Thanks Bernardo

I will check those out

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:41 AM

6. Sent this to a friend.

There is a writer named Alice Miller who has some interesting things to say about the German devotion to Der Fuher.

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Response to Collimator (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:45 AM

8. My dad was only a first generation American.

He grew up speaking German and English. After the war, it was interesting to listen to his family and their friends who had lived in Nazi Germany. Some of them had interesting things to say about the 1/3 who watched. Some of them freely admitted to being part of the 1/3 who watched.

I don't think any of them are alive any more. I'm glad I listened to what I could when I was younger.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:57 AM

11. Thanks Fox, Murdoch, Hanity, Limbaugh and all the hate rw media

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:24 AM

14. bullshit. more like 2-5% amplified by 1500 radio stations manned by a few hundred

ignorant racist blabbermouths following limbaugh's lead, a guy who seems to have increasingly been serving putin the last 10 years

this doomsday crap is bullshit - all amerricans have to do to get democracy back and put the 5% back in the shade is stop ignoring talk radio.

in the mueller report glossary there's a space between the names graff and hawker - where HANNITY would go.

corsi and stone and credico are talk radio operatives, stone back to 2000 - long before social media. wikileaks coordinates with talk radio - as far back as 2009 when limbaugh spent a week creating the 'climategate' hoax to derail obama at copenhagen - that started from a russian hack.

if mueller's as good as supposed to be he will have seen that sam nunberg said he "listened to 1000s of hours of talk radio" in 2014, the same year a russian troll said they were "getting topics to write about" and the indicted russians were visiting various states.

there's a good chance one of those redacted investigations is following the talk radio lead,l and that may be one reason limbaugh polayed golf with trump friday, the day after the mueller report was released.

at the end of the game, will limbaugh take the scorecard home, with a swiss bank account number on it?

the idea the russians haven't been using talk radio is silly- it's a classic propaganda tool they'd be very familiar with and the evidence suggests theyve been using limbaugh since at least 2008 - about when he broke with gop establishment and started pushing putin friendly crap like palin, climategate, debt default, benghazi - some of that was good for the gop but he's basically turned the gop into a putin tool

destroy the talk radio monopoly with protests and boycotts that cause the ad industry to have to start asking clients if they really want to support talk radio and trump and global warming denial and racism and you'll see the real demand for fascism kill the putin/trump/gop/nra talk radio monopoly and trump will be gone in months

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Response to certainot (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:39 PM

25. Good analysis, but you actually just made the point in favor of the OP

Joseph Goebbels was the Hannity and Limbaugh for Hitler who understood that to vilify a segment of the population would enable a relatively small group to dominate.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:39 PM

38. radio was their most important propaganda tool - then like now

the difference is there are thousands of non-trump advertisers paying for it, and at least 88 major universities helping attract those advertisers, that would stop doing that if they were finally confronted by the people they've helped the right vilify for 30 years.

when democrats finally stop ignoring talk radio, as in not noticing that trump played a game of golf with limbaugh the day after the mueller report....

then the ad industry will have to start asking if advertisers really want to support trump and global warming denial and market demand will finally be applied to the political talk radio monopoly and it will fall apart - it will be democratized and the gop/putin will lose the most effective propaganda operation in history

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:25 AM

15. kicking. nt

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:25 AM

16. Who are the people behind the scenes fanning the flames and why are they doing it?

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #16)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:12 PM

20. Why go to war with your enemy when you can get them to kill themselves for you?

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Response to snort (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:20 PM

22. Yes, if powers behind the scenes can create the necessary environment for this type of hatred

to flourish one has to wonder why are they doing it? What do they gain?

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:35 PM

23. World domination.

People like Putin do not think like you and I.

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Response to snort (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:38 PM

24. I was thinking more of the powers in our own country and it may be that world domination is their

goal. Short term I would argue it's about money.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:43 PM

26. Money is power

money is the motivator, but only because it gives the power. If money were flowers then only horticulturists would have power.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:47 PM

27. Yep, and if creating a Fascist state is what it takes for some to maintain their power and money

then it will happen.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:35 AM

18. It must be stated clearly: The 1/3 that wants to kill - wants to kill us. Rethugs,

 

conservatives, Christo-fascists, "The Right", whatever you call them, wants to kill us, "The Left". Not only do they want to kill us, but they're lusting for it.

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Response to DontBooVote (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:48 AM

19. When (if) the right kills the left, the right will subdivide into their own left/right and the whole

When (if) the right kills the left, the right will subdivide into their own left/right and the whole process continues.

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Response to DontBooVote (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:54 PM

28. Maybe ... but they'd have easier targets to finish off first

The "right-wing killers" would go after the minorities, the brown-skinned people, the immigrants, and anyone whose rights they can easily tromple on. The right-wingers would hope to win us over to the dark side, so they wouldn't go after us until later.

In the scenario of Nazi Germany, it would be assumed that we lefties would stand by and let this happen. However I can assure you we would NOT stand by, we'd take action at the first opportunity. The Germans of the 1930's had no precedent to look back on, but we do. The Germans couldn't imagine how bad it would eventually get. We can learn - and hopefully have learned - from the mistakes the "good Germans" made.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #28)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:57 AM

45. First they came...

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:57 PM

29. K&R

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 06:36 PM

33. Chilling, thought provoking.

Let there be peace.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 06:36 PM

34. It's a very easy concept. Control the sound machine, tap into prejudices.

Create chaos.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 08:21 PM

35. America is not Germany, but it sure feels like it.

We do have a longer history of democracy, but there is still human nature that doesn't want to get involved, doesn't want to feel uncomfortable, wants to let somebody else take the lead. Life is certainly messy and complicated.

This is why it is imperative that those of us who aren't afraid to speak up against injustice confront evil where ever we see it.

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Response to BarbD (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:04 PM

36. Truth. Good post. The complacency is what could bring us down. So many people won't pay attention.

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Response to BarbD (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:42 AM

41. 2019 America is certainly not 1930's Germany, despite the seeming

fondness for that doomsday comparison...I remember
the same things being said here during the Bush administration.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:18 PM

37. A stunning truth

It's easier to understand this when you realize the bible tells us that 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven.

They are Trump's base.

Patrick Phillips

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:01 AM

40. K&R

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:30 AM

42. Dear Werner..

America is not Germany.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:00 AM

47. But it easily could become Nazi Germany.

I have no doubt of that. The hatred and stupidity in this country is palpable. What makes you think that this nation is exceptional?

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:29 AM

50. No, I don't think so .

We live in a different legal structure and have a very different history than Germany. For one thing, unlike Germany at the time, we're not a brand new democracy, just 20 years out of an 800 year monarchy.

"Stupidity and hated" are hardly unique to America. Those who disagree, who think we are "exceptional" in that regard, clearly need to get out more.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #50)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:43 AM

52. Americans want something resembling economic security

and a place where they can play with themselves. Whoever can give them that can do whatever the hell he wants with our institutions.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #52)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:04 AM

54. Put away the broad brush..

"Americans" are no more "of one piece" than other people.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #52)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:21 AM

57. Oh, come on! That post is asinine

Considering what this Country is facing!

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #57)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:33 AM

60. Have you checked in on the health of our institutions lately?

I’m well aware of what we’re facing. Herzog has seen more of America than you and I put together. He’s telling us to wake the fuck up.

Here’s Thomas Mann on Nazi Germany: People had turned away from the fundamental principles of a civil society, “liberty, equality, education, optimism and belief in progress” and faith in reason to embrace “the forces of the unconscious, of unthinking dynamism and of pernicious creativity,” which rejected everything intellectual. Fed by those tendencies and carried by a gigantic wave of eccentric barbarism and primitive, populist fair-ground barking, National Socialism pursued “a politics of the grotesque...replete with Salvation Army allures, reflexive paroxysms, amusement-park chiming, cries of hallelujah and mantra-like repetition of monotonous slogans until everyone foamed at the mouth.”

If that doesn’t ring any bells for you well goody for you.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #60)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:37 AM

62. If you read my post below

You will find my answer to why I thought your post was asinine in the reality of what is happening and how people feel about it.

It is our job. To stop it!

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #62)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:42 AM

63. How about we start with impeachment proceedings?

The fact that our leaders are agonizing about that and playing for the next election in the face of our actual existential crisis should tell you something about the strength of our vaunted democratic institutions.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #63)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:46 AM

64. They are not aganizing

They are investigating, getting more information, holding open hearings.

This thing is just getting started. Democrats are working around the clock to get things lined up.

Whining is not helping.

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #64)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:52 AM

65. Neither is one public hearing in the last four months

Legitimate criticism is not whining any more than uncritical support is winning.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #65)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:58 AM

66. The report just came out Thursday!

Mueller has agreed to a public hearing. Barr has,too, but all he will do is lie.

Nadler has subpoenaed the entire report. This takes time. Have you read the report? 400 pages is hard to absorb.

There are 14 more cases we need to see. Cohen has records. So does McGhan. We need to hear from all of them.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #60)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:46 PM

70. Thank YOU!

It amazes me how so many people are willfully blind as to what is happening in this country. If we do not wake up, I have no doubt that we are on a path to a society similar to, not exactly like, Nazi Germany.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #50)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:20 AM

56. But for those of us old enough to remember, do not kid yourself it can not happen again.

Laurence Tribe was just on CNN. He has changed his mind about impeachment.

He thinks every Senator should have to vote on this. Show whether they beleive in the Constitution or not.

I agree with Professor Tribe, the greatest Constitutional Lawyer,ever!

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #56)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:24 AM

58. Anything "can" happen again, I suppose

The issue is it's liklihood.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #58)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:35 AM

61. It is already happening!

I know History, having lived a great deal of it, plus studying the History I did not know.

In the days of Nazi Germany there was very little news, radios, something not all could afford they were slowly sucked in until it was too late. Today we are being sucked in by hate mongers.

While cleaning and purging last week I found the Brownie pictures I knew were here, taken by a 19 year old Soldier who helped liberate one of the Concentration Camps. The site of all those dead bodies brought it all back again. It was a sure reminder it can happen again.

People are becoming immune to mass Killings. We are seeing an upsurge of hate killings, Church bombings while you have an evil man in the Whitehouse, lying,spouting hate while thousands cheer.

Get real! It is already happening. And,it is our job to stop it!

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #61)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:11 AM

73. Yes, I know it too, having, at age 69, "lived a lot of it" as well.

No, sorry, although I DO see this time in our history as troubling and in need of vigilance, I don't think it is "already happening", and find all the Nazi Germany comparisons alarmist and over the top.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:07 PM

71. "It can't happen here!"

LOL

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Response to Yeehah (Reply #71)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:02 AM

72. It can and Wil! --.Be Afraid..Be Very Afraid!

LOL.

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Response to Tanuki (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:02 AM

48. Polling data seems to support the math

Trumps base is between 36 and 38 percent? Roughly 1/3. Let's hope that our democracy is strong enough to avoid the same mistakes other countries have made.

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