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Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:45 AM

People, The Mueller report ended the impeachment debate. Mueller told us this in his report.

Trump is guilty of obstruction, I cannot indict him because of a dumb DOJ rule. It must go to congress for impeachment. That's what the report basically says.

As I predicted, the Mueller report was an indictment. Because of the DOJ rule Mueller could not directly accuse Trump of a crime in the report. He told us Trump was guilty by the step by step indictment in his report.

If the Democrats do not impeach they would breaking their oath of office, If they do not impeach obstruction would no longer be a crime. If we don't impeach we might as well put a match to the constitution.

If the Republicans refuse to convict they will be the ones breaking their oath of office and they will pay for that at the voting booth.

Open hearings, Open hearings, Open hearings.

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Arrow 59 replies Author Time Post
Reply People, The Mueller report ended the impeachment debate. Mueller told us this in his report. (Original post)
shockey80 Apr 20 OP
manor321 Apr 20 #1
Mister Ed Apr 20 #7
olegramps Apr 20 #17
TryLogic Apr 20 #23
Ligyron Apr 20 #29
Magoo48 Apr 20 #39
Turbineguy Apr 20 #2
Mister Ed Apr 20 #9
Neoma Apr 20 #43
Mister Ed Apr 20 #3
benfranklin1776 Apr 20 #11
magicarpet Apr 20 #38
benfranklin1776 Apr 20 #46
warmfeet Apr 20 #35
Pachamama Apr 20 #4
dalton99a Apr 20 #5
G_j Apr 20 #6
anarch Apr 20 #8
SunSeeker Apr 20 #10
lagomorph777 Apr 20 #12
Botany Apr 20 #13
Pepsidog Apr 20 #16
Laura PourMeADrink Apr 20 #14
Pepsidog Apr 20 #15
Mr. Ected Apr 20 #18
lastlib Apr 20 #22
TryLogic Apr 20 #25
Kurt V. Apr 20 #26
HuskyOffset Apr 20 #37
LiberalLovinLug Apr 20 #30
dlk Apr 20 #19
Post removed Apr 20 #20
PatrickforO Apr 20 #33
sugarmommom Apr 20 #49
gopiscrap Apr 20 #52
PatrickforO Apr 20 #34
WestCoastDem42 Apr 20 #21
Perseus Apr 20 #24
ecstatic Apr 20 #41
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 20 #27
Evolve Dammit Apr 20 #54
hughee99 Apr 20 #28
elias7 Apr 20 #32
hughee99 Apr 20 #45
uponit7771 Apr 20 #55
PatrickforO Apr 20 #31
warmfeet Apr 20 #36
world wide wally Apr 20 #40
Sugarcoated Apr 20 #42
YOHABLO Apr 20 #44
Duppers Apr 20 #48
Duppers Apr 20 #47
Mr.Bill Apr 20 #50
AncientGeezer Apr 20 #51
Poohbearpicnic Apr 20 #57
tkauf0310 Apr 20 #53
calimary Apr 20 #56
Progressive Jones Apr 21 #58
Name removed Apr 21 #59

Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:47 AM

1. Amen! All aboard the impeachment train!

 

Choo choo!

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Response to manor321 (Reply #1)


Response to manor321 (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:59 AM

17. Given the political climate, what about a concresonal censure since conviction is not feasable?

Possibly this avenue could be more effective in laying out the charges in Mueller's report which are substantial and can not be easily discounted. It would in the admonishing Trump for his abuse of the office. Secondly, why not two bills to close the loophole of the
DOJ excuse for not charging him by stating that a president is not immune to indictment for crimes. The second one should make it mandatory that a candidate for federal office submit the tax returns upon the demand of any member of congress.

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Response to olegramps (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:57 AM

23. Convictions will occur in other venues, like New York, even if senate Repubs do not remove him.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:18 PM

29. Better hope he's charged in State court.

Hopefully in multiple states actually.

Because given Barr's behavior, I'll just bet he shuts down anything Federal.

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Response to manor321 (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:26 PM

39. Yup. It's time to make a statement.

Impeachment is the procedure in place. If not now, when? If not him, who?

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:49 AM

2. The redactions protect trump at this point.

You can't convict when you know there are facts but they are obscured.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:53 AM

9. That's where the "Open hearings, Open hearings, Open hearings" part of the OP applies. n/t

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 02:26 PM

43. I'm not totally sure of that.

I'm on page 112, so far the redactions appear to be connected to other trials that will ultimately be against if not Trump himself, the people who surrounded him.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:51 AM

3. Yes. "If we don't impeach we might as well put a match to the constitution."

I'm tired of hearing calculations about whether upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States of America might be a political liability or a political benefit for Democrats. The Constitution simply must be defended, or there is no United States of America.

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:44 AM

11. Amen sir amen.

Itís an inviolable duty not to be shirked for petty matters of temporary political pundit appeasement. I would submit that failure to take the constitutionally required action in these dire circumstances will have more harsh political consequences as it will be rightly regarded as an act of rank cowardice by the electorate who you are asking to have faith and trust in you to protect and defend the constitution. As the original poster rightly emphasized open hearings are a must as there is a considerable degree of confusion about the gravity and scope of this betrayal of the constitution, our country, the rule of law and we the people thanks to Agent Orange and his Rethuglican enablers willful and repeated Goebblistic lying. Public hearings are the best way to expose the festering cancer of criminality of this cabal of crooks.

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Response to benfranklin1776 (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:19 PM

38. Ben,.. is that you ? Ben, Ben,... Ben said,...

... Ben was asked after the Continental Convention...

Doctor what have we got a Republic or a Monarchy ? Ben answered,.. "You have a (Democratic) Republic if you can keep it..."
_________

This current Congress, both the Senate and the House of Representative have a Constitutional obligation to investigate and investigate, and investigate some more with very public hearings to show what these Fascists in control of our government from Team trDump have done to trash the US Constitution and commit treason with the help of Russia to hijack our Democracy, then dismantle it, and then transition our Democracy into a Fascist Theocratic Oligarchy. We impeach these Fascist Nazi White Supremacists.

If we fail to follow thru we are nothing better than a Banana Republic with a junta force that covertly trashed our Democracy and stole our government right out from under our noses. It is mandatory that we resist this act of treasonous behavior, push back, and regain control of our government and seats of power.

Nazis can not be reasoned with or coddled. The only course of action is to stamp the Nazis down, then stamp the Nazis out.
Tolerance is not a viable option. Like a cancer, Nazism must be excised and sanctioned to the heaviest extent. Smothered and punished from acceptability by the sane general populous or Nazis will indoctrinate, infect and sicken society with their insane and warped dogma to the detriment of us all.

We must protect ourselves and each other from Nazis. We must restore our Constitutional Democracy. We must banish the Nazis to the trash heap. We must stand together, act in unison, combine our efforts and talents to get this job done. Our Constitutional Democracy hangs by a thread, the threat has never been greater that this trDump Coup de Tat fest of treason.

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Response to magicarpet (Reply #38)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 04:31 PM

46. And we have struggled to keep it.

And the struggle continues mightily in these times where fascism and authoritarianism is in the ascendancy throughout the western world. But democracy furnishes the tools for its self protection and enlightened expansion to those of us, the 99 percent, who need its health and vibrancy the most as the protection from social and economic tyranny. As another poster aptly quoted Ovid:

ďConsider in swift thought what kind of thing it is you love, and withdraw your neck from a yoke that may one day gall. Resist beginnings; too late is the medicine prepared, when the disease has gained strength by long delay. But make haste, nor wait on the coming hours; he who is not ready today will be less so tomorrow." - Ovid.

Time then to put the tools democracy affords us to work demanding justice in this case. If we donít seek justice here then the next transgressions will be more abhorrent,and the democratic republic will be lost to be sure.

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:07 PM

35. Very, very well said.

The rule of law must be defended or there is no U.S.A.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:51 AM

4. +1000000

The Debate is over -Mueller very clearly showed Congress and the American people that it is exactly what must be done.

No person is above the Law.....

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:51 AM

5. Kick

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-a-legal-dispute-between-mueller-and-barr-drove-the-end-of-the-trump-probe/2019/04/19/1781807e-623e-11e9-9ff2-abc984dc9eec_story.html

In a report of its findings, Muellerís team said that choice was driven in large part by a long-standing legal opinion at the Justice Departmentís Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) that a sitting president should not be indicted, even if the charges remained sealed.

Mueller's team concluded that also meant they could not accuse the president of a crime, even in secret internal documents, the report said.

The Mueller report suggests that the OLC opinion weighed heavily on his teamís thinking, and said the special counselís office ďconducted a thorough investigation in order to preserve the evidence when memories were fresh and documentary materials were available,Ē suggesting that perhaps another prosecutor could file a charge against Trump after he leaves office.

At other points the report implies ó but never says outright ó that Congress should assume the role of making prosecutorial decisions when it comes to the president.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:51 AM

6. Yes

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 09:53 AM

8. open hearings...that's the main thing

I agree. It's more a symbolic gesture than a realistic method to remove the idiot from office, but if we don't impeach then we might as well just throw out the constitution.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:02 AM

10. K & R

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:45 AM

12. "Open hearings, Open hearings, Open hearings."

That's the correct path to get the public onboard. And regardless of how you feel about the political viability of impeachment, only open hearings can make impeachment possible. Open hearings will (even if the impeachment drive fails) make it clear to voters what's at stake in 2020. There is no down side to hearings.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:46 AM

13. I believe that Barr stopped Mueller from issuing charging statements on Trump and company and ...

... that Mueller and company also meant for their report to be turned over to Congress and
that Mueller's team wrote summaries of each chapter of the report that were to be given to
the public too. Barr is working to stop both Congress and the American people from seeing
what is really in the report.


One of the most highly redacted sections of the report had to do with Wikileaks and the Russians
and the Trump campaign both used Wikileaks to sew lies, divisions, and spread information that
was stolen from Hillary and the DNC. Barr is a fixer for Trump and Company's work in the largest
crime in America's history.



20 Most Damaging Items From Mueller's Report

https://hillreporter.com/20-most-damaging-items-from-muellers-report-31869

1. The Trump campaign ďexpected it would benefitĒ from Russian hacking efforts.

4. Trump made a heretofore unknown attempt to get his former Attorney General to shut down the investigation.

8. Security contractor and former Blackwater CEO Erik Prince, the brother of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, financed efforts to obtain Hillary Clintonís deleted emails.

17. Sections about the Trump campaignís communications with Wikileaks are heavily redacted.

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Response to Botany (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:53 AM

16. Mueller's report is not only a road map to impeachment it's a trial notebook.

Muellerís report essentially gives all the information to easily have an impeachment trial. The witness list, legal theories are all set forth so literally any semi-competent lawyer could prosecute the case.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:46 AM

14. No excuses anymore. If Dems didn't have someone

Some group drafting something before now, bad on us.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:49 AM

15. I think you are right. While the real Trumpers won't care, impeachment might educate enough people

to the real facts to make the Trumpers irrelevant. Also, how long could republicans ignore the meticulously laid out facts the Muellerís report lays out. Mueller seems to have dumbed down the report so as to spoon feed it to the masses which is good. Congress should not call Barr to testify he will just continue to lie and give cover to Trump. Mueller should testify and set the stage for impeachment. Fox and idiots will have a hard time dealing with the truth as told by Mueller.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:08 AM

18. We need to let Congress put the Mueller Report on the record, not the media alone

The American people cannot make a reasoned opinion based on disparate and conflicting media reports. At this point, right wingers are clinging on to the words of Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh to inform them of the report's content. Not that the hard core will ever come around, but our electorate is comprised of a large unaffiliated center that WILL pay attention to a public hearing of the evidence in Congress.

As the OP suggests, it is our constitutional imperative to pursue impeachment under the circumstances.

The crimes committed by Trump, et al., were not political. They were crimes against everyone, including those who vote Republican. They were crimes that threaten our national security. They were FELONIES. Not political.

If Dems worry more about the optics, about the politics, of an impeachment, they prove themselves to be just as petty politically as the Reps. If the Senate votes not to impeach, that too can be a point in the 2020 elections. NOT that the Senate, in a fair and impartial verdict, deemed the Trump cabal to have been innocent of the crimes, but rather, that the Senate, in light of a boatload of provable evidence, chose politics over their duty to govern. That would be our rallying cry.

Remember, we lost the 2016 election because the Russians and Trump conspired to throw it. Trump has done nothing to stem that for 2020. If you think that, after 4 years of Trump, the 2020 election will be about the voters and not those who would again subvert our fair elections, you are a fool.

Impeach. Fervently. Emphatically. And with no regard, NO REGARD, to the politics. This may be our last stand.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:50 AM

22. They are crimes that diminish our democracy and the rule of law.

They MUST have consequences! Impeachment/removal and disgrace are not enough--they must be prosecuted in some fashion--or the next fascist dictator-wannabe to come down the pike will have no fear of finishing what this one has started.

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Response to lastlib (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:02 PM

25. I agree. In adequate consequences (or none) in the past is how we got Trump.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:06 PM

26. this 1000 times

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Response to lastlib (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:14 PM

37. Strongly agree, these crimes must be called out & exposed

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:23 PM

30. " If Dems worry more about the optics, about the politics, of an impeachment..."

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

LZ

Democrats can change the road. But time is running out. But they need to go all in or go all out. The world's politics has become more polarized...everywhere. Its sad, but its reality. If they continue to cling to the idea that if they just be even MORE MODERATE, MORE CONCILIATORY, MORE FORGIVING....and avoid at all costs coming off as the "angry Democrats" allowing themselves to be defined by Fox News, ....they will further decline into the cloudy soft middle where no one is respected anymore.

Others here have made the argument as defending the Constitution now.....or never. I agree. But just looking at it in a political arena way, they seem afraid of rocking the boat too much. But they misread the zeitgeist of the times.

While Aunt Mabel having her tea will appreciate their decorum, the majority who have been brought up in a sensationalized 1000 channel, reality TV smorgasbord want MORE. They want to see the minority picked on group on the island fight back and vote off the bully from the other tribe. That is what they respect, and expect. This is what will get Independents to vote Democratic. And we need them as backup.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:14 AM

19. I'm in Favor of Open Hearings & Any Vehicle that Sends This Mob Boss & His Crime Family to Prison

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:48 PM

33. LOL, Noam might be right about COLLUSION, but he's NOT right about

the Mueller report being a 'gift for Trump.'

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 05:42 PM

49. Independent Counsel's specific charge of obstruction of justice supporting Pres Clinton's impeachmen

Independent Counsel Report charged President Clinton specifically with 'obstruction of Justice' among other charges supporting 'a case for impeaching him on 11 possible grounds'.

Independent Counsel Report on President Clinton September 11, 1998 wiki excerpt:


"...Clinton performed actions that were "inconsistent with the constitutional duty to faithfully execute the laws" and outlined a case for impeaching him on 11 possible grounds, including perjury, obstruction of justice, witness tampering and abuse of power.[7]"

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Response to sugarmommom (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 08:31 PM

52. welcome to DU

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Response to Post removed (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:07 PM

34. You know, this is a right wing site.

I'm going to have to alert on this post

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:50 AM

21. Yes, and yes again!

Warren is on the right side of history (again) and should have everyone's support. Everyone should find and read the Mueller Report. Just follow the road map it lays out!!! All the heavy lifting has been done. Bring the targets in front of OPEN hearings to expose the lies then deal with it!!

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 11:58 AM

24. "Trump is guilty of obstruction, I cannot indict him because of a dumb DOJ rule."

It is not a rule, it is an opinion...It has been debated by many lawyers, the buffoon CAN BE indicted.

An opinion is not a rule, I can understand why the repubs would put a lot of weight on an opinion, but I don't understand why other people do...For God's sake, IT IS AN OPINION by a gutless man who could not get to say what needed to be said against Nixon, IT IS NOT a rule.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:49 PM

41. +1000. nt

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:13 PM

27. I finally finished reading the whole thing

and now I want to take a shower. Seriously, the cumulative effect of all the sleaze and slime described in the report just screams for impeachment, like How the hell did this dirtbag wannabe mob boss get to be the president, and why can't we get rid of him? I think this road map has to be followed. I want to see the House hold hearings like they did for Watergate so all the evidence that appears in the report is shown to the public. Nixon wouldn't have been forced to resign if it hadn't been for the hearings, which caused his approval ratings to drop to about 25%. Successful impeachment/conviction isn't likely unless the voters see for themselves the evidence Mueller looked at. So let's get those hearings started, and it does sound like the House committees are about to do just that.

Read the whole report if you haven't yet. It's even worse than you think.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 08:54 PM

54. Excellent points about Nixon. Let's get the hearings started.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:15 PM

28. So by this logic, Mueller didn't have a case against Kushner, JR,

Ivanka, or anyone else for colluding with Russia?

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:37 PM

32. There are 14 active investigations, Stone, Assange and 12 we don't know

I think some of those characters are not in the clear. Mueller passed a lot on to district courts. Plus, the CI investigation is out there somewhere too. So, I'm hoping that certain folks weren't mentioned because they are Ongoing Matter to which Harm could come to...

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Response to elias7 (Reply #32)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 03:55 PM

45. If Mueller was supposed to be looking into Russian collusion

How does he ďpass onĒ those cases to others? The cases he did pass on (that we know of) are related to other things.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 08:56 PM

55. No, the Campaign Finance law says they had to know they were breaking the law.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:37 PM

31. I agree. Those in the House now have a clear duty to draw up

and vote on Articles of Impeachment for Donald J. Trump, regardless of whether it is politically 'expedient,' or what the Senate will, or will not do, or any other fears they might have for stepping forward.

They have a stark duty to follow that is laid out in the US Constitution, and not to do that duty is to be forswear their oaths of office.

It is that simple.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:13 PM

36. Yep, very well said.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:45 PM

40. Yep... Impeach and put it on the Republicans.

I don't think most people in the country are going to run around saying, "Thank God the Republicans saved the world and our king"

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 02:05 PM

42. Exactly

I've been saying this for months. Though there was plenty before the report to impeach his lying ass, once the report landed the Dems could not play politics. They MUST do the right thing.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 03:39 PM

44. We allowed Bush to get away with war crimes and murder. What precedent?

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 05:07 PM

48. That was our speaker too.

You're right!

And many of us disagreed with her decision.

Our democracy is being torn into shreds because we fear upsetting the country?



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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 05:04 PM

47. + another Million

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 05:50 PM

50. I'm betting that republican Senators

not voting for Trump's removal will turn out more Democratic voters than republican voters in November 2020.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 06:38 PM

51. "If the Democrats do not impeach they would breaking their oath of office,"

Not really. Impeachment is a political option. OPTION. Not a legal mandate by any OoO standard.
A failure to convict is also not a OoO violation.

Obstruction would Still be a crime and will stay a crime....what would need to change is the DoJ idea that a sitting POTUS can't be charged while in office

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:48 PM

57. Wow

 

At last some sage wisdom

I do believe you may indeed be ancient

Unlike those of us who just
FEEL ancient!


Good words!

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 08:45 PM

53. we have to

as much as I want to win in 2020, we have to impeach. It is the moral thing to do, and if we don't, because we are afraid to lose, we deserve what we get.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:45 PM

56. I've been asking - "how is this NOT obstruction?!?" for the longest time.

I am not a lawyer and donít have that level of expertise. Strictly civilian. But shit - every one of these instances that the media has been tiptoeing around and not wanting to say it out loud or connect the dots, just seems so obvious to me. Iím very gratified to see that all this shit has been identified as obstruction. Taken all together instead of tweezering out example here and example there and so seldom trying to put them together to see the whole picture.

Thatís been largely what the media has done. Looking at each separate offense, time after time, without connecting them to reveal a VERY clear and explicit trend - itís reminding me of that proverbial group of blind men examining an elephant for the first time. One of them is at a leg - AHA! Itís a tree! One of them at the trunk - AHA! Itís a snake! One of them at the tip of a tusk - AHA! Itís some sort of spear! Nobody realizes what the actual whole is - a big-ass adult-size elephant. They only know little separate disjointed, disconnected relatively insignificant parts of it.

Few people have had a chance to see the wide-screen view with the full cast assembled. Til now. Thanks to Muellerís 400+ pages of compiled crimes all together under one cover. I think (at least I hope) that enough voters will read it all and realize what a colossal crook a few too many allowed themselves to be taken by.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:49 AM

58. Use impeachment proceedings to create 24/7 chaos in Trump's life.

The American People won't be able to get any kind of conviction through impeachment because the Russian controlled GOP
won't do what's right. They need that vote in the WH. Trump is a needed puppet.

Impeachment would bring a mountain of evidence to the forefront. Evidence that the House currently can't examine. The exposure of countless crimes and criminals.

The media will report this, 24/7. People on all sides will chat about it, 24/7.
The Trump Administration will tremble in fear, 24/7.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

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