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Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:15 PM

Do we really want to rush toward a Trump pardon?

Impeachment and conviction equals Pence.

Pence equals pardon.

If he's voted out then he's indicted the first day he walks out of the WH.

Which do we want? An impeachment with a Trump pardon, or the opportunity to see him in jail?

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Reply Do we really want to rush toward a Trump pardon? (Original post)
defacto7 Apr 2019 OP
leftieNanner Apr 2019 #1
FarPoint Apr 2019 #2
defacto7 Apr 2019 #14
FarPoint Apr 2019 #19
DontBooVote Apr 2019 #44
KentuckyWoman Apr 2019 #3
struggle4progress Apr 2019 #4
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #5
SunSeeker Apr 2019 #6
shanny Apr 2019 #11
SunSeeker Apr 2019 #21
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #15
SunSeeker Apr 2019 #22
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #26
SunSeeker Apr 2019 #27
caraher Apr 2019 #7
pnwmom Apr 2019 #28
caraher Apr 2019 #31
defacto7 Apr 2019 #42
defacto7 Apr 2019 #43
YOHABLO Apr 2019 #8
defacto7 Apr 2019 #10
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #16
defacto7 Apr 2019 #41
ecstatic Apr 2019 #9
defacto7 Apr 2019 #13
SunSeeker Apr 2019 #23
Nay Apr 2019 #36
world wide wally Apr 2019 #12
dawg day Apr 2019 #17
defacto7 Apr 2019 #40
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #18
defacto7 Apr 2019 #39
manor321 Apr 2019 #20
defacto7 Apr 2019 #38
GulfCoast66 Apr 2019 #24
Joe941 Apr 2019 #25
democratisphere Apr 2019 #29
dalton99a Apr 2019 #30
YOHABLO Apr 2019 #46
procon Apr 2019 #32
tritsofme Apr 2019 #34
oasis Apr 2019 #33
myohmy2 Apr 2019 #35
Bradical79 Apr 2019 #37
jmowreader Apr 2019 #45
defacto7 Apr 2019 #47
jmowreader Apr 2019 #48

Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:19 PM

1. I want House investigations

First. Then follow where they lead. Pence is dirty too. Let's do one thing at a time and see where it leads.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:19 PM

2. It is the duty of Congress to remove this offensive, abusive criminal....

No need to over think this action with a bunch of , " What if so and so on happens".....That is weakness...

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:51 PM

14. I didn't give any what ifs. It's clear.

Impeachment and conviction means a Pence pardon. There's no question in my mind.

But someone said down thread that he's not going to live long anyway. So maybe that's the answer. It doesn't matter if he's pardoned.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:02 PM

19. Let the cards fall as they may....

Trump is unfit and abusive...he is not king.....Impeachment is the duty of Congress....

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:46 PM

44. Impeachment is not only the duty of Congress, it's an historical imperative.

 

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:21 PM

3. I want the US Congress to do its job.

Period

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:24 PM

4. The House can vote on its impeachment articles after 3 November 2020

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:24 PM

5. I want his ugly orange ass out of the White House.

Pence would probably pardon him if he's impeached and convicted, but he should remember what happened to Gerald Ford: He got his ass handed to him in the '76 election, and even he acknowledged that he lost because he pardoned Nixon. Pence is stupid but ambitious, and he might not want to pardon Trump if he thinks it will hurt him politically.

It would be a lot more satisfying to see him get arrested as he leaves the White House on 1/20/20.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:26 PM

6. The SOL runs in 2021, after Pence leaves office.

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:16 PM - Edit history (1)

I imagine prosecutors will wait until January 22, 2021 to file charges. If Pence is still in office in 2021, Trump getting pardoned will be the least of our worries.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:42 PM

11. fwiw, Nixon hadn't been charged when Ford pardoned him.

 

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Response to shanny (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:15 PM

21. There will be plenty of opportunity to bring criminal charges against Trump after he leaved office.

It is more important for the protection of our country to impeach Trump for obstruction and get this treadonous lying criminal.out of the White House. There is no readon to avoid impeachment in order to attempt to preserve any indictment of him on federal obstruction charges. He could always pardon himself for those on his way out the door, like Nixon planned to do before they got Ford to do it.

Plus, Nixon did not commit serious state tax and financial crimes like Trump did. There's no pardon for that. There will be plenty of opportunity to bring criminal charges against Trump once he's out of office, with or without a pardon.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:55 PM

15. Yes, he can. Ford pardoned Nixon for all crimes he might have committed

while president; Nixon was never criminally charged with anything.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:17 PM

22. Ok. Is that any reason to forego impeaching Trump?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #22)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:26 PM

26. No, because Pence can't pardon him for state crimes.

And the Manhattan DA is looking at the Trump organization...

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:28 PM

27. Exactly.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:30 PM

7. I don't care whether he goes to jail

Get him out of the Oval Office ASAP, whether that's by impeachment or electoral means.

Whether he "pays" for his crime is somewhat beside the point - we need to limit the damage he does. And impeachment should proceed regardless of current calculations regarding the chances of conviction. Let the Republicans in the Senate choose party over country, in public.

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Response to caraher (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:30 PM

28. If Trump does not going to jail he won't slink quietly off, like Nixon.

He's be setting himself up as a kind of alt-President, probably in the middle of his own new TV network.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #28)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:17 PM

31. True, he won't be quiet if only because of his ego

And sure, I'd like to see him do time, I just don't think it's the most important thing.

I'm also not so sure that going to jail is a panacea, either. His most deluded followers might consider him something of a martyr.

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Response to caraher (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:42 PM

42. I'm beginning to come to that conclusion as well.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:43 PM

43. Now that's a nightmare thought.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:33 PM

8. With Trump gone and if Pence stepped down, wouldn't Nancy Pelosi become acting President?

 

Miracles do happen.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:41 PM

10. Yes, but why would Pence step down?

but if so why wouldn't he pardon tRump before leaving?

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:58 PM

16. The 25th Amendment requires a president to appoint a vice president

if that position is vacant. So if Trump was gone for whatever reason, Pence would have to appoint someone, and that person also has to be approved by a majority of both houses of Congress. So the only way Pelosi would become president is if, after Trump leaves, Pence also leaves before he can appoint a VP or get one approved.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #16)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:40 PM

41. So I guess the point of the line of succession deals with catastrophic losses,

or maybe bulk convictions although the latter is unlikely.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:35 PM

9. I want a party that isn't stifled by fear. The facts are on our

side. If your scenario happens, fine, Pence would lose in 2020, and dump will die soon anyway. Democrats would be rewarded in 2020 for standing up for our country.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:44 PM

13. This is the best answer I've read.

He's not going to live long enough to matter. Maybe that's the attitude we should have.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:18 PM

23. Exactly. nt

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:04 AM

36. THANK YOU. nt

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 09:43 PM

12. Impeachment first... Then arrest and prison

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

17. I want TV hearings-- especially into his finances.

And Pence is a sanctimonious snake. Watch him. He'll solemnly promise Trump, "yes, I'll pardon you if you resign," and then when Trump's resigned, Pence will shiv him.

Best thing is to ruin Trump's reputation, such as it is, make him seem like such a loser even most of his cultists are embarrassed by him, and win in 2020 big.

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Response to dawg day (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:36 PM

40. I'm for that.

I took a summer history couse in high school because all they were going to do was watch the Nixon hearings on TV and discuss it. It had an effect on my view of politics for sure.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:02 PM

18. Pence can't pardon him for state crimes. And you can be sure he committed some.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:32 PM

39. Yeah, and I hope we start hearing some news about those processes.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:10 PM

20. Come on, I'm so tired of this

 

Impeachment is the ONLY right thing to do. Period fucking period!

Who says Trump won't try to pardon himself?

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Response to manor321 (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 01:30 PM

38. You can always take a nap. No just kidding..

Look, I don't know the answer but I'm leaning toward impeachment because of asking questions in ways that bring out the weaknesses and hearing good arguments to them. Just jumping on the wagon isn't my way. I dig. One of the best answers I've heard is that a pardon just doesn't matter because he's not going to live very long anyway. So it's not about retribution. We should continue with impeachment as if a pardon didn't exist and do what's necessary to bring the GOP regime down.

I know it's tedious but we all have different processes.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:23 PM

24. Conviction will never happen. Ever.

We will only remove him from power by winning in 2020.

In my opinion, impeachment with no conviction will make removing him less likely.

Others of good intentions may disagree.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:24 PM

25. That is a horrible argument...

 

Impeachment saves this country from 2 more years of tRump... would you really rather have the country endure 2 more years of this just so you can see him in jail? Seriously for the good of the country he must go and ASAP - even if it means he lives comfortable for the rest of his life.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:00 PM

29. What to do about a severely corrupted Senate?!

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:05 PM

30. Face it, Trump won't serve a day in prison

Impeach the motherfucker, and let history record that he was impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #30)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 02:53 PM

46. Wouldn't that be a huge blow to his narcissistic ego.

 

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:35 PM

32. If Impeached, Trump cannot be pardoned

Under Article II, sec.2, the president has the “power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

Editing add:
Once Impeached, Trump is permanently disqualified from ever holding another federal office.

After Trump is removed from office he can be indicted by any state's AG, and any private citizen can sue him. Presidents have no authority over state courts, so Trump will find no reprieve from that quarter.

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Response to procon (Reply #32)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:20 AM

34. The pardon cannot be used to nullify impeachment, but a former president can still receive a pardon

that shields him from the federal criminal justice system.

Also, once impeached and removed, Congress can choose to disqualify that person from federal office, but it is not automatic. For instance, Alcee Hastings was impeached and removed as a federal judge in 1989, but today he is a Democratic congressman from Florida, Congress did not further act to disqualify him from office.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:40 PM

33. Lock him up!

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:41 AM

35. I think that's silly...

...no one is going to pursue trump after he leaves office...he'll be considered 'old-business'...

...has anyone ever pursed an ex-president for anything?

...they'll just tell us to grow up and move on...

...it's now or never...patriot:

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:17 AM

37. He won't be removed imo, so no President Pence

 

Though should it happen, Trump could be called to testify under oath then, and be unable to plead the 5th on any related matter.

I think impeachment proceedings are more about showing the American people that at least Democrats are serious in their role as a check on executive power. Trump may be the most overtly and brazenly corrupt POTUS in American history. If he can't be impeached, we might as well remove the entire process from the Constitution.

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Response to defacto7 (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 02:37 PM

45. Five little words...

The Constitution gives the president pardon power “except in cases of impeachment.”

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #45)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 03:01 PM

47. I would think that means convicted of impeachment

But yes, that fits my question. So he can be pardoned of any crime where he's not been convicted of impeachment, even if he's not been charged and as long as it's not state crimes. I think.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 05:41 PM

48. No one really knows, since we've never removed a president by impeachment before

This is what I see happening: Congress will impeach him on a LOT of crimes. They'll find him guilty on all of them and kick his ass to the curb. (I know a lot of people believe the Republican Senate will protect him, but after all the evidence is laid out no Senator of either party will want to go on record as standing behind an un-American eighthwit that makes Nixon look honest. So, if a bill of impeachment makes it to the Senate he'll be sent home in disgrace - preferably on a Greyhound bus with cardboard taped over the windows.) At that point, Congress has eliminated the possibility of him ever receiving a pardon for his actions.

Trump's biggest worry: he committed a LOT of state-level crimes. Most of them were committed in New York. Pence couldn't pardon those even if he wanted to. The governor of New York really hates him, and any "jury of his peers" convened in New York would be sure to give him a mild punishment... "what do you mean, burning him at the stake is cruel and unusual punishment? We promise to hit him in the head with a three-pound sledgehammer before we light the gasoline so it won't be cruel, and after we do the same thing to the rest of the Trump Organization it won't be unusual either. But just to make you happy, we'll throw him in Sing Sing until five years after he dies."

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