General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGuess what, folks?
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All kinds of people are made uncomfortable every day, and by all kinds of things and not everyone feels the need to make an issue of it, or have an attitude that the world at large owes them whatever degree of comfort they somehow think theyre entitled to.
I am appalled that he made me feel uncomfortable is even being discussed as some kind of serious breach of human behaviour that needs to be addressed by Biden, or anyone else.
He sniffed my hair, he touched my waist, he put his hand on my shoulder without permission is this really what we should be concerning ourselves with? Is this where were at as a nation, a place where any individuals discomfort is an earth-shattering issue that requires immediate action, and a complete overhaul of how we interact with each other on a daily basis?
What I see happening right now is a ridiculous conflation of unwanted sexual aggression and day-to-day human contact that most people do not find objectionable, no less worthy of comment.
Have these women who have come forward to accuse Biden of making them feel uncomfortable ever been in a crowded subway car, or a packed elevator, or a long line at the grocery check-out? If they have, surely theyve experienced being made uncomfortable in those situations so should we act on their discomfort by insisting that those who made them uncomfortable in those circumstances apologize for their participation in doing so, and ignore the fact that those people had no intention of making anyone uncomfortable to begin with?
Enough is enough and promoting the idea that every man and woman in the country has a responsibility to ensure that every individuals right to be comfortable at all times is beyond ridiculous.
When he sniffed my hair is proffered as a disqualifier for running for the presidency, we have clearly lost sight of what is important and it is particularly suspect when people who are suddenly coming forward with such accusations are doing so years after the alleged inappropriate behaviour occurred, but oh-so-conveniently just in time to undermine a potential presidential candidates run for office.
The cry of I believe the accusers should require something more than a simple declaration of belief. It should require facts, not innuendo. It should require a complete scrutiny of circumstances, and not a blind acceptance that people who were made to feel uncomfortable should be taken at their word alone.
It should require that anyones claims to being uncomfortable is not something by which we judge the actions of anyone, and determine that the discomfort of others is a legitimate yardstick by which we measure the worth of any potential candidate.
As many here have already pointed out, always believe the woman is no different than always believe the man. Both positions are invitations to ignore the facts in furtherance of embracing non-facts.
There are women who have been violently raped, women who have been traumatized by sexual molestation, women whose lives have been forever negatively impacted by the actions of sexual predators. To proffer I was made to feel uncomfortable as equivalent to their experiences is to diminish what they have lived through, and what they have struggled to survive.
I am fully aware that this OP will lead to accusations that I just dont get it and thats fine. After reading all of the posts about how he sniffed my hair (apparently accepted as the truth without question) traumatized those women who had the "courage to come forward" years after-the-alleged-fact, I am questioning my being here in the first place.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)How dare the universe present something unpleasant to me! It's all the universe's fault for making me feel uncomfortable.
2naSalit
(86,061 posts)True Blue American
(17,972 posts)The truth
melman
(7,681 posts)Nobody at all has "proffered 'I was made to feel uncomfortable' as equivalent to their experiences.." etc.
It's a ridiculous straw man.
watoos
(7,142 posts)Many see Joe Biden as the best bet to beat Trump, now we are talking about, should he run?
Joe got to make his defense on national TV and on Social media, Al Franken never got his day in court. An inappropriate picture of his hands close to his coworkers flak jacket was all it took to force Al to resign. I was curious to hear what his camera man's statement was regarding the episode. Wasn't he just as guilty as Al? No one got to hear from the camera man, no one wanted to hear from the camera man because people proferred from Al's resignation.
SlogginThroughIt
(1,977 posts)Bettie
(15,998 posts)this does a dual purpose of denigrating Biden AND the #me too movement. Rape? Being sexually abused as a child? Why is that important? Now let me tell you about the time someone put his hands on my shoulder and I felt uncomfortable!
2naSalit
(86,061 posts)I only highlighted it, can't take credit for it myself!
to Nance for your profound eloquence!
secondwind
(16,903 posts)on the Supreme Court. Now everyone wants to crucify a really REALLY good man, a family man who has never been unfaithful to his wife. Who brims with compassion and empathy for others.
Look what we have in the While House, for crying out loud. Enough already!!!
GoCubsGo
(32,061 posts)I understand how it's easy to forget about that second one, since he has only spoken twice in the decades he has been on the Court.
I agree. It has gotten beyond ridiculous. Especially since his latest accusers are now qualifying their claims as "not sexual in nature. Just uncomfortable." WTF? It feels like we're in "The Crucible." It's particularly galling to have to see the media asking the Pussy Grabber in Chief to comment on the latest accusations--without a hint of irony. This shit has got to stop.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)DFW
(54,057 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:23 AM - Edit history (1)
To me, you seem to get it just fine. Take heart in the fact that the most vocal of the quick-to-condemn crowd are a group whose numbers you can count on the fingers of your hands.
Keep in mind also that the quick-to-condemn presidential candidates, especially this time, obviously have presidential ambitions of their own to promote, some of them stretching back to the Al Franken outrage. With each lightning jump to assumption of guilt, they demonstrate a poverty of presidential fortitude that the office deserves. Cheney, with his worship of Machiavelli, is history, and deserves to stay there. I have been in touch recently with an old friend whose life Cheney ruined by just such tactics (typical Republican--he let someone else take the fall when it got to that). It is time these tactics were no longer rewarded with success--and certainly not with the Oval Office.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)While visiting in Boston we rode the subway, or what ever they call it. A young worker sitting next to me fell asleep and leaned over on my shoulder. The Gentleman with me was horrified. I laughed and said, He has been working hard in the heat all day and is tired.
For Heavens sake people, this is getting totally out of hand! Grow up and act like adults.
boston bean
(36,186 posts)True Blue American
(17,972 posts)The gentleman in our group was from Quincy. He showed us all the highlights.
That is where we heard the Iranian Hostage speak.
ProfessorGAC
(64,425 posts)Even though a good part of it is underground, it's called "L" for elevated.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)Today,or remembered. It has been few years ago.
ProfessorGAC
(64,425 posts)Especially given I've never actually lived in the city.
When I was early in my career, I worked in the near southwest suburbs but was going to grad school on the far north side.
So, I'd drive a mile or so to the station, take the train downtown, walk a couple hundred yards to the L station, and take that north
Twice a week for about 2 years
Of course, city dwellers probably are on those trains that many times in 3 months.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)
Grow up and act like adults.
I am seventy years old. I have watched women go from adorable-but-inconsequential-voices to being leaders in every category from CEOs of corporations to political powerhouses.
I am appalled that any woman would diminish what we have achieved by claiming they have been made uncomfortable by the actions of others as though such discomfort is equivalent to being denied, as women, our Constitutional rights.
I am appalled that the message that women are strong, independent, and more than capable of leading a nation is being undermined by women who think being made to feel uncomfortable is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Grow up and act like adults is exactly on point. Women (and men) who promote the idea that women shouldnt be made to feel uncomfortable are the same people who believe that women are incapable of leadership due to their female penchant for being made to feel uncomfortable.
Fuck that. Fuck the idea that women are shrinking violets that require protection. Fuck the idea that we wimmin-folk need to be made comfortable as we retire to our fainting couches. Fuck the idea that women who claim to be uncomfortable are equivalent to women who have been violently assaulted.
I stand with the women who believe there is a difference between sexual assault and being made to feel uncomfortable.
Anyone who doesnt recognize that difference is clearly someone who isnt interested in the facts, but is only interested in promoting the idea that women are too weak and inherently ignorant to know the difference.
mcar
(42,210 posts)Rhiannon12866
(203,036 posts)And I'm also female. Having been subjected to unwanted attention in my life, as most all of us have, there's definitely a huge difference between the #metoo kind of harassment and the kind of attention currently being discussed just now - and most of us can tell the difference. And waiting for 10 years to come forward - at this opportune time - seems somewhat suspicious to me. And if someone put his hand on my shoulder or patted my head, I honestly wouldn't remember. But if it was that other kind of unwanted attention, I made my objections known and got the hell out of there. That, I remember.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)Any woman knows the difference.
madaboutharry
(40,153 posts)First of all, I do think Joe Biden needs to stop being so touchy feely because there are people who dont like that kind of thing. He says he understands that and gets it. In my mind this story is over.
But you said something that speaks to me so clearly. There are women who have truly suffered. Women and men both who have been traumatized and have had their lives permanently changed because of mistreatment and abuse. This melodrama over He touched my hair and He hugged me too long mocks true survivors. It denigrates their suffering by equating these experiences.
I also agree that there is a lot wrong with the always believe the women standard. Some women are not good people. Some women lie. Some women have agendas. An accusation should not be accepted on the basis that a woman made it. An accusation should be treated no differently than any other accusation, meaning looking at the facts.
melman
(7,681 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)Blue_Adept
(6,384 posts)Atticus
(15,124 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)You say it so well what I'm feeling about all of this.
I know I don't want Joe Biden to be taken out like Al Franken was.
I hope Biden is able to come out of this stronger. He deserves it as an honorable man.
I've read his accusers don't want him to run.. thankfully it's not up to them.
Silver Gaia
(4,514 posts)As I've said in numerous other threads in the same vein as this, I agree with every word you said.
Arkansas Granny
(31,483 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)a way to claim we are ridiculous. Why do we have to do that? The whole "snowflake" thing - this is the type of thing that gives them an excuse for it. As they are incredibly cruel in their extremes (dismissing kids being separated from their parents as well their parents should not have brought them, for example) so we can end up being so incredibly sensitive that this sort of thing is now a thing.
Discomfort happens all the time. It doesn't even take people touching you. It can just be the way they are treating you. People can "put you on the spot" without touching you at all - that can be a lot worse.
judesedit
(4,437 posts)Drumpf mocked the reporter on national television? Were the women whose pussies were admittedly grabbed comfortable? Excuse me...POC and the LGBTQ have been putting up with being called names and being physically attacked forever in school, at work, just walking down the street. Do you think they're comfortable? Wake up, people. This is more bullshit flung by the right. Don't buy into it. The bots are out there. Let's ignore them, please.
Scully
(57 posts)Agree with your points all around. But even before we get to the mockery this uncomfortableness makes of real assault, we cant bypass the fact that even equating uncomfortableness with unacceptability is a faulty premise in the first place.
Pachamama
(16,875 posts)Thank you for writing this. It explains exactly how I feel about this situation and the accusations against Biden. I am a sexual assault survivor and I have felt the statement of I was made to be uncomfortable being equated with sexual assault survivors and sexual harassment is an insult to victims and wrong. It also diminishes completely the purpose and goals of what the MeToo movement should be and the awareness to sexual harassment and assault.
You are correct that we are in everyday life surrounded by things that may make us uncomfortable and also everyone has a different threshold and measurement. If our societies start to equate every single persons definition and try to accommodate it, we will not be able as a society to interact. I am a person whose family is German and Danish and have family in Europe and spend time there frequently. Whether it is when I am in France or Spain where everyone even upon meeting for first time or greeting kisses each other on each cheek (or the Netherlands where it is 3 kisses!) are those societies also to then change because people feel uncomfortable with that and then its abolished? I personally find those interactions and greetings in Europe wonderful and I feel connected with my fellow humans more as a result. That is my experience - perhaps if someone is uncomfortable then they should state that to a person at the time. Not choose 5 years later to express and then use it as a political weapon.
OldBaldy1701E
(4,968 posts)Our oligarch government has spent the last 60+ years programming the population to be suspicious of each other so we won't pay attention them while they raid our livelihoods to make themselves richer and to keep us poor and hungry. It is what happens when you impose a business model on a society and try to make it work as a societal model. Mainly, it is what happens when your entire socio-political existence is based on the worship of a little green piece of paper. There is much money to be made in the various industries that have been created by this 'phenomenon', as well as the money and prestige made on social media by this rabid behavior, and they are not going to alter the narrative just because of a little reality, now are they? I agree with you in that this constant, massive overreaction-itis to things tends to make them less important, but there is also the 'three foot' rule (namely that, unless it happens within three feet of someone, it isn't a concern to them) which I feel is a factor in this.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)To this. How many days, how many appearances has Flores had now. She has been on every station.
We are posting about this while the Trumps steal the tax payer blind, along with all their cronies.
McConnell is hell bent on destroying The Senate to get his flunkies on as Judges. He knows his time is running short and they are doing as much damage as they can while we argue about who touched who on the shloulder.
This is my last post in the Joe Biden bashing. I hope others feel the same!
Atticus
(15,124 posts)sfwriter
(3,032 posts)His tone was much better. I expected better from you, especially when these accusations cannot have been a surprise. They were discussed frequently in 2015. He has weathered them beautifully.
By my count he has seven issues to defuse that include this one, Anita Hill, several of his past votes, and his chumminess with GOP members of government. Like his behavior with personal space, they will come up. Bringing them up isnt an act of childishness or coming forward after the fact. It is a primary after all and we want everything that is uncomfortable aired now, not in the general.
If it were me, Id be airing all I could now, before I announce. His response has been perfect.
Response to NanceGreggs (Original post)
Canoe52 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)People feel uncomfortable about all kinds of things...every day, without making a federal case out of it. Why now?
And now all those candidates that piled on will be held to the same standard. No hugging, no kissing...Everybody! See how they like it.
MFGsunny
(2,356 posts)Conflating #metoo with possible #iuncomfortable demeans BOTH realities, their respective facts, and their appropriate remedies. IMHO.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)If the bar becomes "I felt uncomfortable" we can't even begin to make rules for appropriate conduct and the entire issue becomes weaponized.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)And every time this weapon is blatantly misused it educates more people each time, thus losing some of its power to destroy. Hopefully more than usual with this misuse. In service to your nation, Joe.
Btw, on Scarborough, Clair McCaskill, who risked her seat in service to her nation and who's known Joe for years, deeply regretted the miscasting of him, although of course acknowledging that personal boundaries are hardening and this has to be respected.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Joe Biden? Not so much, really.
dalton99a
(81,073 posts)Omaha Steve
(99,073 posts)Per the decisions and instructions of the DU Admins, all OP's regarding Democratic candidates for the Party's nomination for President are to be posted in the Democratic Primaries Forum. Please post your OP there. Thanks