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NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:02 AM Apr 2019

Guess what, folks?

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Omaha Steve (a host of the General Discussion forum).

All kinds of people are “made uncomfortable” every day, and by all kinds of things – and not everyone feels the need to make an issue of it, or have an attitude that the world at large owes them whatever degree of “comfort” they somehow think they’re entitled to.

I am appalled that “he made me feel uncomfortable” is even being discussed as some kind of serious breach of human behaviour that needs to be addressed – by Biden, or anyone else.

“He sniffed my hair”, “he touched my waist”, “he put his hand on my shoulder without permission” – is this really what we should be concerning ourselves with? Is this where we’re at as a nation, a place where any individual’s “discomfort” is an earth-shattering issue that requires immediate action, and a complete overhaul of how we interact with each other on a daily basis?

What I see happening right now is a ridiculous conflation of unwanted sexual aggression and day-to-day human contact that most people do not find objectionable, no less worthy of comment.

Have these women who have come forward to accuse Biden of making them “feel uncomfortable” ever been in a crowded subway car, or a packed elevator, or a long line at the grocery check-out? If they have, surely they’ve experienced “being made uncomfortable” in those situations – so should we act on their discomfort by insisting that those who made them “uncomfortable” in those circumstances apologize for their participation in doing so, and ignore the fact that those people had no intention of making anyone “uncomfortable” to begin with?

Enough is enough – and promoting the idea that every man and woman in the country has a responsibility to ensure that every individual’s right to be “comfortable” at all times is beyond ridiculous.

When “he sniffed my hair” is proffered as a disqualifier for running for the presidency, we have clearly lost sight of what is important – and it is particularly suspect when people who are suddenly coming forward with such accusations are doing so years after the alleged “inappropriate behaviour” occurred, but oh-so-conveniently just in time to undermine a potential presidential candidate’s run for office.

The cry of “I believe the accusers” should require something more than a simple declaration of belief. It should require facts, not innuendo. It should require a complete scrutiny of circumstances, and not a blind acceptance that people who were “made to feel uncomfortable” should be taken at their word alone.

It should require that anyone’s claims to being “uncomfortable” is not something by which we judge the actions of anyone, and determine that the “discomfort” of others is a legitimate yardstick by which we measure the worth of any potential candidate.

As many here have already pointed out, always believe the woman is no different than always believe the man. Both positions are invitations to ignore the facts in furtherance of embracing non-facts.

There are women who have been violently raped, women who have been traumatized by sexual molestation, women whose lives have been forever negatively impacted by the actions of sexual predators. To proffer ”I was made to feel uncomfortable” as equivalent to their experiences is to diminish what they have lived through, and what they have struggled to survive.

I am fully aware that this OP will lead to accusations that I just don’t get it – and that’s fine. After reading all of the posts about how ”he sniffed my hair” (apparently accepted as the truth without question) traumatized those women who had the "courage to come forward" years after-the-alleged-fact, I am questioning my being here in the first place.

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Guess what, folks? (Original Post) NanceGreggs Apr 2019 OP
That bad bad naughty universe vlyons Apr 2019 #1
K&R 2naSalit Apr 2019 #2
Agree,100%! True Blue American Apr 2019 #7
+1,000 malaise Apr 2019 #8
But nobody has done that melman Apr 2019 #10
Really? The entire Republican party has proferred. watoos Apr 2019 #26
Oh I would wager it isn't just the republican party... SlogginThroughIt Apr 2019 #41
THIS! A million times over Bettie Apr 2019 #44
Nance called it with that paragraph! 2naSalit Apr 2019 #46
it surely has gotten ridiculous. We put a sexual predator secondwind Apr 2019 #3
We have TWO sexual predators on the Supreme Court. GoCubsGo Apr 2019 #36
K&R, there has to be some moderation uponit7771 Apr 2019 #4
No accusations here DFW Apr 2019 #5
Thank you for this. True Blue American Apr 2019 #6
We call it the "T". boston bean Apr 2019 #21
Yeah, I wanted to say L:) True Blue American Apr 2019 #22
The L Is Chicago ProfessorGAC Apr 2019 #24
Another thing I learned True Blue American Apr 2019 #29
I Spent A Fair Amount of Time On It ProfessorGAC Apr 2019 #39
And thank you for THIS ... NanceGreggs Apr 2019 #25
Was saying much the same to SO last night mcar Apr 2019 #38
It may not be popular, but I agree with you Rhiannon12866 Apr 2019 #9
100% True Blue American Apr 2019 #23
The "Me Too" movement has been corrupted. madaboutharry Apr 2019 #11
This thread is really gross melman Apr 2019 #12
No, melman.. it's not the thread that's "gross". Cha Apr 2019 #14
+1 nt Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #37
People having a different opinion is gross? Discussion forums may not be for you. Blue_Adept Apr 2019 #27
Yeah, thinking women have COOTIES! nt Atticus Apr 2019 #32
Mahalo, Nance.. Cha Apr 2019 #13
Thank you, Nance. Silver Gaia Apr 2019 #15
K & R Arkansas Granny Apr 2019 #16
I agree; there is a point where we just hand right wingers treestar Apr 2019 #17
Exactly. Are those children in cages comfortable? Were the physically challenged comfortable when judesedit Apr 2019 #18
The problem is even simpler than that Scully Apr 2019 #19
I completely agree with you Nance Pachamama Apr 2019 #20
What else did you expect? OldBaldy1701E Apr 2019 #28
The Media has also contributed True Blue American Apr 2019 #30
Oh, you DO get it. Thanks for the common sense. nt Atticus Apr 2019 #31
You disappoint me sfwriter Apr 2019 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author Canoe52 Apr 2019 #34
Nancy, your first paragraph is what I've been saying on twitter and du.. Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #35
WELL SAID as usual, Nance! K&R a million times. MFGsunny Apr 2019 #40
I've been thinking of saying the same thing, but chickened out-- may be better a woman say it... TreasonousBastard Apr 2019 #42
I think attacking Joe will probably be to the good. Hortensis Apr 2019 #43
Donald Trump Makes Me Feel "Uncomfortable" Constantly. MineralMan Apr 2019 #45
Great post. dalton99a Apr 2019 #47
After a review by forum hosts...locking. Omaha Steve Apr 2019 #48

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
1. That bad bad naughty universe
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:20 AM
Apr 2019

How dare the universe present something unpleasant to me! It's all the universe's fault for making me feel uncomfortable.

2naSalit

(86,061 posts)
2. K&R
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:22 AM
Apr 2019
There are women who have been violently raped, women who have been traumatized by sexual molestation, women whose lives have been forever negatively impacted by the actions of sexual predators. To proffer ”I was made to feel uncomfortable” as equivalent to their experiences is to diminish what they have lived through, and what they have struggled to survive.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
7. Agree,100%!
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:08 AM
Apr 2019

malaise

(267,827 posts)
8. +1,000
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:11 AM
Apr 2019

The truth

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
10. But nobody has done that
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:26 AM
Apr 2019

Nobody at all has "proffered 'I was made to feel uncomfortable' as equivalent to their experiences.." etc.


It's a ridiculous straw man.

 

watoos

(7,142 posts)
26. Really? The entire Republican party has proferred.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:02 AM
Apr 2019

Many see Joe Biden as the best bet to beat Trump, now we are talking about, should he run?

Joe got to make his defense on national TV and on Social media, Al Franken never got his day in court. An inappropriate picture of his hands close to his coworkers flak jacket was all it took to force Al to resign. I was curious to hear what his camera man's statement was regarding the episode. Wasn't he just as guilty as Al? No one got to hear from the camera man, no one wanted to hear from the camera man because people proferred from Al's resignation.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
41. Oh I would wager it isn't just the republican party...
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:51 AM
Apr 2019

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
44. THIS! A million times over
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 09:03 AM
Apr 2019

this does a dual purpose of denigrating Biden AND the #me too movement. Rape? Being sexually abused as a child? Why is that important? Now let me tell you about the time someone put his hands on my shoulder and I felt uncomfortable!

2naSalit

(86,061 posts)
46. Nance called it with that paragraph!
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 09:56 AM
Apr 2019

I only highlighted it, can't take credit for it myself!


to Nance for your profound eloquence!

secondwind

(16,903 posts)
3. it surely has gotten ridiculous. We put a sexual predator
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:48 AM
Apr 2019

on the Supreme Court. Now everyone wants to crucify a really REALLY good man, a family man who has never been unfaithful to his wife. Who brims with compassion and empathy for others.

Look what we have in the While House, for crying out loud. Enough already!!!

GoCubsGo

(32,061 posts)
36. We have TWO sexual predators on the Supreme Court.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:03 AM
Apr 2019

I understand how it's easy to forget about that second one, since he has only spoken twice in the decades he has been on the Court.

I agree. It has gotten beyond ridiculous. Especially since his latest accusers are now qualifying their claims as "not sexual in nature. Just uncomfortable." WTF? It feels like we're in "The Crucible." It's particularly galling to have to see the media asking the Pussy Grabber in Chief to comment on the latest accusations--without a hint of irony. This shit has got to stop.

uponit7771

(90,225 posts)
4. K&R, there has to be some moderation
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:54 AM
Apr 2019

DFW

(54,057 posts)
5. No accusations here
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 04:59 AM
Apr 2019

Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:23 AM - Edit history (1)

To me, you seem to get it just fine. Take heart in the fact that the most vocal of the quick-to-condemn crowd are a group whose numbers you can count on the fingers of your hands.

Keep in mind also that the quick-to-condemn presidential candidates, especially this time, obviously have presidential ambitions of their own to promote, some of them stretching back to the Al Franken outrage. With each lightning jump to assumption of guilt, they demonstrate a poverty of presidential fortitude that the office deserves. Cheney, with his worship of Machiavelli, is history, and deserves to stay there. I have been in touch recently with an old friend whose life Cheney ruined by just such tactics (typical Republican--he let someone else take the fall when it got to that). It is time these tactics were no longer rewarded with success--and certainly not with the Oval Office.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
6. Thank you for this.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:07 AM
Apr 2019

While visiting in Boston we rode the subway, or what ever they call it. A young worker sitting next to me fell asleep and leaned over on my shoulder. The Gentleman with me was horrified. I laughed and said,” He has been working hard in the heat all day and is tired.”

For Heavens sake people, this is getting totally out of hand! Grow up and act like adults.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
21. We call it the "T".
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:33 AM
Apr 2019

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
22. Yeah, I wanted to say L:)
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:40 AM
Apr 2019

The gentleman in our group was from Quincy. He showed us all the highlights.

That is where we heard the Iranian Hostage speak.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
24. The L Is Chicago
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:51 AM
Apr 2019

Even though a good part of it is underground, it's called "L" for elevated.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
29. Another thing I learned
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:26 AM
Apr 2019

Today,or remembered. It has been few years ago.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
39. I Spent A Fair Amount of Time On It
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:16 AM
Apr 2019

Especially given I've never actually lived in the city.
When I was early in my career, I worked in the near southwest suburbs but was going to grad school on the far north side.
So, I'd drive a mile or so to the station, take the train downtown, walk a couple hundred yards to the L station, and take that north
Twice a week for about 2 years
Of course, city dwellers probably are on those trains that many times in 3 months.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
25. And thank you for THIS ...
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:59 AM
Apr 2019

Grow up and act like adults.

I am seventy years old. I have watched women go from adorable-but-inconsequential-voices to being leaders in every category from CEOs of corporations to political powerhouses.

I am appalled that any woman would diminish what we have achieved by claiming they have been “made uncomfortable” by the actions of others – as though such discomfort is equivalent to being denied, as women, our Constitutional rights.

I am appalled that the message that women are strong, independent, and more than capable of leading a nation is being undermined by women who think being “made to feel uncomfortable” is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Grow up and act like adults is exactly on point. Women (and men) who promote the idea that women shouldn’t be “made to feel uncomfortable” are the same people who believe that women are incapable of leadership due to their “female penchant” for being made to feel uncomfortable.

Fuck that. Fuck the idea that women are shrinking violets that require protection. Fuck the idea that we wimmin-folk need to be “made comfortable” as we retire to our fainting couches. Fuck the idea that women who claim to be “uncomfortable” are equivalent to women who have been violently assaulted.

I stand with the women who believe there is a difference between sexual assault and being “made to feel uncomfortable”.

Anyone who doesn’t recognize that difference is clearly someone who isn’t interested in the facts, but is only interested in promoting the idea that women are too weak and inherently ignorant to know the difference.

mcar

(42,210 posts)
38. Was saying much the same to SO last night
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:14 AM
Apr 2019

Rhiannon12866

(203,036 posts)
9. It may not be popular, but I agree with you
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:15 AM
Apr 2019

And I'm also female. Having been subjected to unwanted attention in my life, as most all of us have, there's definitely a huge difference between the #metoo kind of harassment and the kind of attention currently being discussed just now - and most of us can tell the difference. And waiting for 10 years to come forward - at this opportune time - seems somewhat suspicious to me. And if someone put his hand on my shoulder or patted my head, I honestly wouldn't remember. But if it was that other kind of unwanted attention, I made my objections known and got the hell out of there. That, I remember.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
23. 100%
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:42 AM
Apr 2019

Any woman knows the difference.

madaboutharry

(40,153 posts)
11. The "Me Too" movement has been corrupted.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:30 AM
Apr 2019

First of all, I do think Joe Biden needs to stop being so touchy feely because there are people who don’t like that kind of thing. He says he understands that and gets it. In my mind this story is over.

But you said something that speaks to me so clearly. There are women who have truly suffered. Women and men both who have been traumatized and have had their lives permanently changed because of mistreatment and abuse. This melodrama over “He touched my hair” and “He hugged me too long” mocks true survivors. It denigrates their suffering by equating these experiences.

I also agree that there is a lot wrong with the “always believe the women” standard. Some women are not good people. Some women lie. Some women have agendas. An accusation should not be accepted on the basis that a woman made it. An accusation should be treated no differently than any other accusation, meaning looking at the facts.


 

melman

(7,681 posts)
12. This thread is really gross
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:33 AM
Apr 2019

Cha

(295,929 posts)
14. No, melman.. it's not the thread that's "gross".
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:34 AM
Apr 2019

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
37. +1 nt
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:06 AM
Apr 2019

Blue_Adept

(6,384 posts)
27. People having a different opinion is gross? Discussion forums may not be for you.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:03 AM
Apr 2019

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
32. Yeah, thinking women have COOTIES! nt
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:45 AM
Apr 2019

Cha

(295,929 posts)
13. Mahalo, Nance..
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:33 AM
Apr 2019

You say it so well what I'm feeling about all of this.

I know I don't want Joe Biden to be taken out like Al Franken was.

I hope Biden is able to come out of this stronger. He deserves it as an honorable man.

I've read his accusers don't want him to run.. thankfully it's not up to them.

Silver Gaia

(4,514 posts)
15. Thank you, Nance.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 05:47 AM
Apr 2019

As I've said in numerous other threads in the same vein as this, I agree with every word you said.

Arkansas Granny

(31,483 posts)
16. K & R
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:10 AM
Apr 2019

treestar

(82,383 posts)
17. I agree; there is a point where we just hand right wingers
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:20 AM
Apr 2019

a way to claim we are ridiculous. Why do we have to do that? The whole "snowflake" thing - this is the type of thing that gives them an excuse for it. As they are incredibly cruel in their extremes (dismissing kids being separated from their parents as well their parents should not have brought them, for example) so we can end up being so incredibly sensitive that this sort of thing is now a thing.

Discomfort happens all the time. It doesn't even take people touching you. It can just be the way they are treating you. People can "put you on the spot" without touching you at all - that can be a lot worse.

judesedit

(4,437 posts)
18. Exactly. Are those children in cages comfortable? Were the physically challenged comfortable when
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:22 AM
Apr 2019

Drumpf mocked the reporter on national television? Were the women whose pussies were admittedly grabbed comfortable? Excuse me...POC and the LGBTQ have been putting up with being called names and being physically attacked forever in school, at work, just walking down the street. Do you think they're comfortable? Wake up, people. This is more bullshit flung by the right. Don't buy into it. The bots are out there. Let's ignore them, please.

Scully

(57 posts)
19. The problem is even simpler than that
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:29 AM
Apr 2019

Agree with your points all around. But even before we get to the mockery this “uncomfortableness” makes of real assault, we can’t bypass the fact that even equating uncomfortableness with unacceptability is a faulty premise in the first place.

Pachamama

(16,875 posts)
20. I completely agree with you Nance
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 06:30 AM
Apr 2019

Thank you for writing this. It explains exactly how I feel about this situation and the accusations against Biden. I am a sexual assault survivor and I have felt the statement of “I was made to be uncomfortable” being equated with sexual assault survivors and sexual harassment is an insult to victims and wrong. It also diminishes completely the purpose and goals of what the MeToo movement should be and the awareness to sexual harassment and assault.

You are correct that we are in everyday life surrounded by things that may make us “uncomfortable” and also everyone has a different threshold and measurement. If our societies start to equate every single persons definition and try to accommodate it, we will not be able as a society to interact. I am a person whose family is German and Danish and have family in Europe and spend time there frequently. Whether it is when I am in France or Spain where everyone even upon meeting for first time or greeting kisses each other on each cheek (or the Netherlands where it is 3 kisses!) are those societies also to then change because people feel uncomfortable with that and then it’s abolished? I personally find those interactions and greetings in Europe wonderful and I feel connected with my fellow humans more as a result. That is my experience - perhaps if someone is uncomfortable then they should state that to a person at the time. Not choose 5 years later to express and then use it as a political weapon.

OldBaldy1701E

(4,968 posts)
28. What else did you expect?
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:05 AM
Apr 2019

Our oligarch government has spent the last 60+ years programming the population to be suspicious of each other so we won't pay attention them while they raid our livelihoods to make themselves richer and to keep us poor and hungry. It is what happens when you impose a business model on a society and try to make it work as a societal model. Mainly, it is what happens when your entire socio-political existence is based on the worship of a little green piece of paper. There is much money to be made in the various industries that have been created by this 'phenomenon', as well as the money and prestige made on social media by this rabid behavior, and they are not going to alter the narrative just because of a little reality, now are they? I agree with you in that this constant, massive overreaction-itis to things tends to make them less important, but there is also the 'three foot' rule (namely that, unless it happens within three feet of someone, it isn't a concern to them) which I feel is a factor in this.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
30. The Media has also contributed
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:35 AM
Apr 2019

To this. How many days, how many appearances has Flores had now. She has been on every station.

We are posting about this while the Trumps steal the tax payer blind, along with all their cronies.

McConnell is hell bent on destroying The Senate to get his flunkies on as Judges. He knows his time is running short and they are doing as much damage as they can while we argue about who touched who on the shloulder.

This is my last post in the Joe Biden bashing. I hope others feel the same!

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
31. Oh, you DO get it. Thanks for the common sense. nt
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:39 AM
Apr 2019
 

sfwriter

(3,032 posts)
33. You disappoint me
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 07:47 AM
Apr 2019

His tone was much better. I expected better from you, especially when these accusations cannot have been a surprise. They were discussed frequently in 2015. He has weathered them beautifully.

By my count he has seven issues to defuse that include this one, Anita Hill, several of his past votes, and his chumminess with GOP members of government. Like his behavior with personal space, they will come up. Bringing them up isn’t an act of childishness or coming forward after the fact. It is a primary after all and we want everything that is uncomfortable aired now, not in the general.

If it were me, I’d be airing all I could now, before I announce. His response has been perfect.

Response to NanceGreggs (Original post)

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
35. Nancy, your first paragraph is what I've been saying on twitter and du..
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:02 AM
Apr 2019

People feel uncomfortable about all kinds of things...every day, without making a federal case out of it. Why now?

And now all those candidates that piled on will be held to the same standard. No hugging, no kissing...Everybody! See how they like it.

MFGsunny

(2,356 posts)
40. WELL SAID as usual, Nance! K&R a million times.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:39 AM
Apr 2019

Conflating #metoo with possible #iuncomfortable demeans BOTH realities, their respective facts, and their appropriate remedies. IMHO.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
42. I've been thinking of saying the same thing, but chickened out-- may be better a woman say it...
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 08:53 AM
Apr 2019

If the bar becomes "I felt uncomfortable" we can't even begin to make rules for appropriate conduct and the entire issue becomes weaponized.



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
43. I think attacking Joe will probably be to the good.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 09:00 AM
Apr 2019
America knows Joe. Even Republicans like Uncle Joe, and that strength made him a bad victim. Those of ill intent couldn't get a "perv" or "creepy" label to stick the way it would have against a male candidate people didn't know so well.

And every time this weapon is blatantly misused it educates more people each time, thus losing some of its power to destroy. Hopefully more than usual with this misuse. In service to your nation, Joe.

Btw, on Scarborough, Clair McCaskill, who risked her seat in service to her nation and who's known Joe for years, deeply regretted the miscasting of him, although of course acknowledging that personal boundaries are hardening and this has to be respected.

"...unlike the norm in politics,"... Joe "never shakes hands and looks past your shoulder to the next person." "He really wants to look inside you and hear you, and he used physical contact to do that with men and women. This is not sexual. This is who he is."


MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
45. Donald Trump Makes Me Feel "Uncomfortable" Constantly.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 09:17 AM
Apr 2019

Joe Biden? Not so much, really.

dalton99a

(81,073 posts)
47. Great post.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 10:29 AM
Apr 2019

Omaha Steve

(99,073 posts)
48. After a review by forum hosts...locking.
Thu Apr 4, 2019, 10:55 AM
Apr 2019

Per the decisions and instructions of the DU Admins, all OP's regarding Democratic candidates for the Party's nomination for President are to be posted in the Democratic Primaries Forum. Please post your OP there. Thanks

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Guess what, folks?