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Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:43 PM

About "socialism"?... Is there evidence of it here in the U.S.A.?

Any evidence of socialistic ideas? That the government takes care of people? (a socialistic idea?) And that the government provides services?

All cities have ...running water..Who provides the running water?
All cities have sewage systems..Who provides the sewage systems? (some rural areas do not, and home owners provide sewage systems.)
All cities have police departments?.....same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
All cities have fire departments?........same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
Yes, cities have emergency rooms for health care... No, the cities do not provide that..hospitals do.
.............................................in an emergency Do you get care? Available to all?
Most cities have parks and playgrounds...Who provides them? Are they open to everyone?
Is there something about libraries?....can anyone go in and read a book?
How about public schools..Only for the rich, or for everyone in that town, What about that one?
...You mean education up to grade 12 for everyone?
Some communities have Junior or Community Colleges. Are they open to everyone?

OH MY!..........
...... If "socialism" is toxic...it looks like we all have been .... poisoned..!!

64 replies, 1197 views

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Reply About "socialism"?... Is there evidence of it here in the U.S.A.? (Original post)
Stuart G Wednesday OP
DBoon Wednesday #1
Stuart G Wednesday #3
uponit7771 Wednesday #23
EX500rider Wednesday #2
Xipe Totec Wednesday #5
EX500rider Wednesday #8
SidDithers Thursday #41
EX500rider Thursday #43
Stuart G Wednesday #6
EX500rider Wednesday #7
Horizens Wednesday #18
uponit7771 Wednesday #24
loyalsister Thursday #62
watoos Wednesday #10
EX500rider Wednesday #11
EX500rider Thursday #37
fescuerescue Wednesday #27
EX500rider Thursday #38
fescuerescue Thursday #58
Sparkly Thursday #51
Sparkly Thursday #50
EX500rider Thursday #52
Kurt V. Thursday #53
EX500rider Thursday #54
Kurt V. Thursday #55
EX500rider Thursday #56
Kurt V. Thursday #59
Horizens Wednesday #4
Stuart G Wednesday #12
EX500rider Thursday #39
Karadeniz Wednesday #9
Stuart G Wednesday #14
fescuerescue Wednesday #28
Kurt V. Thursday #60
GulfCoast66 Wednesday #13
Stuart G Wednesday #16
GulfCoast66 Wednesday #20
uponit7771 Wednesday #25
pamdb Wednesday #15
Stuart G Wednesday #17
Stuart G Wednesday #21
2naSalit Wednesday #19
kennetha Wednesday #22
Stuart G Wednesday #26
kennetha Wednesday #29
Stuart G Wednesday #31
lagomorph777 Thursday #40
kennetha Thursday #44
lagomorph777 Thursday #48
brooklynite Wednesday #30
Stuart G Thursday #33
SidDithers Thursday #46
Kurt V. Thursday #61
Xolodno Thursday #32
Stuart G Thursday #34
applegrove Thursday #35
moondust Thursday #36
lagomorph777 Thursday #42
kennetha Thursday #45
lagomorph777 Thursday #49
SidDithers Thursday #47
Joe941 Thursday #57
Sparkly Thursday #63
uriel1972 Thursday #64

Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:50 PM

1. Some cities have public water and electric utilities

There are even worker-owned companies and co-operatives if you look hard enough

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Response to DBoon (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:52 PM

3. Thank You for adding those ideas. Yes, they are important.. nt..

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Response to DBoon (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:28 PM

23. +1

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:51 PM

2. Step one...look up definition of socialism...and it is none of the things you listed.

socialism noun
so∑​cial∑​ism | ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Definition of socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:55 PM

5. Sounds like a capitalist's definition of socialism. nt

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:57 PM

8. It is the dictionaries definition. nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:17 PM

41. Damn captialist pig dictionaries...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:20 PM

43. Apparently....lol...it's a plot I tell you!! nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:55 PM

6. I guess we have a different view of socialism, or socialistic ideas.

About..."means of production" ? What about means of living? Many view that in the same way..It really depends on how you look at it. The argument is endless.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:56 PM

7. Words have actual meanings, not just ones you make up. Mine came from MirramWebster. nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:17 PM

18. Exactly

And any economic course would verify what you and Webster state.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:29 PM

24. +1, looks like people have an idea of something and the technical meaning doesn't mean crap

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 06:11 PM

62. noun vs adjective

Socialism as an economic and governmental system is not necessarily the same thing as a culture and government that leans on the socialistic philosophy that drives support for shared social responsibility.
The focus on the noun as a way of discrediting government policies which serves the common good is frustrating.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:57 PM

10. None of the things you listed is what

any Democrat wants.

Maybe we should check the definition of fascism? When a corporation like Boeing tells the government like the FAA what to do about a dangerous plane?

Please don't post stuff that is such a long ways away from where our country actually is.

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Response to watoos (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:59 PM

11. All I did was post the actual definition of socialism if you meant to respond to me. nt

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Response to watoos (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:06 PM

37. "Maybe we should check the definition of fascism?"

Sure, that gets misused almost as much as socialism.

Fascism:

A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:34 PM

27. I wish I had a dollar

for every time that Webster's dictionary is dragged during socialism discussions.

When we talk about Capitalism it doesn't happen. Heck not even with Communism. You don't see every election thread with a definition of election.

I'm not picking on you, it's extremely common. Even on libertarian and right wing websites, any debate has at LEAST one message defining it.

Just strikes me funny.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:06 PM

38. Mostly because many people seem to have no idea what it means nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #38)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:34 PM

58. Everybody thinks they do

There isn't a single person the US who when asks about socialism says "I don't know what that is". By extension, no one who reads a definition of it changes their mind either.

The argument tends to go like this: "that thing you don't like that you keep calling socialism...well this is what it really is, therefore you are wrong about everything about that thing"

I guess that's ok, but it's not a argument that changes minds. The problem is that "thing". Doesn't matter what you call it - the argument participant either likes or doesn't like it.

They aren't really arguing about the label of such thing. They are arguing about the practices of such thing.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:52 PM

51. I'd actually never seen that before.

I guess the dictionary could answer questions like "what is art" and "what's the meaning of life" too, in a way.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:50 PM

50. Keyword there is "various."

Any of various theories, some economic and others political, some in conflict with capitalism and others not.

It's complicated.

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Response to Sparkly (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:15 PM

52. Which all involve the govt owning the means of production....which never ends well. nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:20 PM

53. this is a ridiculous argument. Repeated a million times here.

a word means what a given society says it means. as i said earlier, the meaning of the word fascist changed almost overnight in post ww2 Italy.

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Response to Kurt V. (Reply #53)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:23 PM

54. Economic theories like socialism have specific meaning regardless of peoples misinterpretations nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:28 PM

55. true. which doesn't mean a thing regarding lay peoples interpretations .

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Response to Kurt V. (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:29 PM

56. Other then they may be incorrect. nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #56)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:38 PM

59. Here's my point. it doesn't matter if they're incorrect (they are).

what matters is how ppl feel about it. this is an opportunity to redefine how ppl feel about it , to shed this label ( 100 yrs worth ) once and for all by making it a positive.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:53 PM

4. Nope

None of the things listed are socialist. ideology

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Response to Horizens (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:59 PM

12. ...I guess that is your "opinion." A very long time ago, education was for the wealthy.

Education was not available to poor and middle class. The fact that the "government" got involved in providing free "education" was not "socialism" but guess what. It really was. Free for all, and everyone gets it regardless of class, income, or situation. Provided for by .."the government"

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:12 PM

39. Definition of words are not "opinions" You can actually look them up.

And free schooling has zero to do with socialism.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:57 PM

9. Co-ops?

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Response to Karadeniz (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:02 PM

14. yes, kinda like..."socialism" depends on who you talk to. Owned by the workers..correct?

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:36 PM

28. some co-ops are owned by employees. Some not.

My parents electric company out in the stick, it's owned by the customers.

Generally speaking co-ops are owned by at least some people who are on both sides of the transaction.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #28)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:46 PM

60. I get my electricity from a co-op. they have annual gatherings to voice our opinion

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:01 PM

13. Nothing you listed is socialism.

Words have defined meanings. If you want a nation more like, say France or Sweden, as I do, you are not wanting socialism.

You want a capitalist nation with very strong social democratic policies to moderate the extremes capitalism tends to bring.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:09 PM

16. I beg to differ. Public education is a form of "socialism"

Of course it is not defined that way. But the government provides it for everyone. I guess it depends on how one looks at it..or defines it. What about "public roads?" Public transportation? The New York subway system is provided by the government, built by the government, for public use. It is subsidized by the government. Of course it is not called "socialism." At one time, there were private systems that ran transit systems. So, they went broke, and the government took them over. Is that it? Good or Bad?

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #16)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:21 PM

20. No. None of those are examples of socialism.

I am sure you and I agree on most policy matters so a fight is not what I am looking for.

But Americans, even we on the left, allowing those things to be called socialism is a symptom of the rights and corporate Americaís ability to redefine words.

Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production. Meaning business and industry. It really has no other meaning.

Ruling Western European parties are not and do not call themselves socialist because they arenít. They are social democrats if on the left. Generally.

And transportation systems have historically been government run back to the days of Roman Roads. Train system in most of the world are government run from the git go. We are kind of the exception. Iíll grant you most air travel is privately run but with huge government regulation. But none of those are means of production, they are services.

Unless you want government controlling the means of production, you are not a socialist. No matter what you call yourself.



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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:30 PM

25. +1

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:06 PM

15. Socialism

Not to mention Medicare, Medicaid, social security,unemployment insurance, food stamps, low income housing, and Iím sure thereís more. All these things republicans railed against and called socialism.

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Response to pamdb (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:13 PM

17. Oh NO NOT MEDICARE TOO??? i LIKE THAT ONE.

I HAVE THAT ONE.....can't be .....SOCIALISM CAN IT BE????

yes ...I did have some difficult medical issues...very expensive, ...very very expensive. Covered by Medicare...Yes, I was in favor of that in the 60s although I was a youngster..Yes, that is a good one.

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Response to pamdb (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:22 PM

21. OH..."FOOD STAMPS".....YES... republicans did not like that one at all..

Food for poor people. Oh no not that. It turns out that a lot of seniors are poor and "food stamps" help them to stay alive. Now, this is totally accepted, but you are right..republicans "railed against them, until some of them lost their jobs, and needed them.

Now, they are accepted as much as "seat belts" are.

YOu know, the government should not force anyone to put a seat belt on...Did you know that?..I taught in public high schools in the late 80s and early 90s and we argued about that. Should the government force you to wear a seat belt?....and another one........we fought over......

Should the government force you to wear a helmet when riding a bicycle...remember that one? Where I take walks in the forest, there are bike paths near the walking paths....Looks to me that almost everyone wears a helmet....???

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:18 PM

19. Both

the US Highway System and the Interstate Highway system for starers,,, along with every public roadway & bridge.

Not to mention the US Weather Service, our National Parks and Public Lands. Then there's the public school system which has been getting murdered by a kazillion cuts since the 1970s.
And, and, and...

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:27 PM

22. It's amazing really

Bernie fudges the meaning of Ďsocialismí in a deliberate act of obfuscation and the Bernie broís fall in line like a bunch of lemmings and declare that public highways and schools are socialist. Itís almost Trumpian in its self delusion!

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Response to kennetha (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:33 PM

26. No, not self delusion. If one looks deep within the definition these are socialistic.

I am not a "Bernie's bro", but I studied this topic at the university that I attended. It deals with definition of terms. Now, there are "toll roads" and "toll bridges" but when the public pays the cost and upkeep of the roads and bridges..well it depends on what you mean by that.

It is not.."self delusion" but a way of looking at it.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:38 PM

29. Are you trying to say that wherever you have public highways

You have socialism? What college did you go to? You should ask for a refund if thatís what they taught you.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:48 PM

31. Public Highways are financed through taxes. Not all the taxes pay for cost of the highways.

The government keeps up the highways and repairs them. No it is not called, "socialism" It is called government upkeep of the highways. No one argues about it, it is just done.

I went to a state university ...and the people of the state covered 75 percent of residents cost of going there. Yes, tuition covered some of the cost. Of course. But out of state students paid 5 times what in state students paid. Yes, that was a form of ..."socialism" but it is never called that. Because it is a state university, costs are covered if you are a state resident.

Oh no, it can't be anything like " socialism" So when I went to the state university, the cost of Harvard was 20 times what we paid. Oh...we all should go to those really expensive places...and if we cannot afford them, no community colleges, (which are subsidized by state and local governments) and no state universities either that are subsidized by state taxes.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #29)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:16 PM

40. If, per Merriam-Webster, scialism is public ownership of means of production, then yes, of course.

Modern American society has been a mix of capitalism and socialism at least since the 1930s, and public roads pre-date that. Public roads are a means of economic production. How do you think your grocery store gets its stock?

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #40)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:21 PM

44. No no no!

Socialism is not the same as a mixed economy. Stop that! By your lights even Republicans are socialist. Even some libertarians are socialists.

Just stop it!

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Response to kennetha (Reply #44)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:23 PM

48. Pure socialism, or pure capitalism, are both myths. In either extreme case,

what you really get is massive inequality, justified by an empty myth.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:46 PM

30. Socialism does not mean "the government taking care of everyone"

This willful disregard of the agreed upon definition of socialism is really becoming tiresome.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #30)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:06 AM

33. I agree, "Socialism does not mean, "the government taking care of everyone."

The government performs services that were once performed by private industries, or added to by government to help people survive. (like food stamps)..

...When transportation systems made lots of money, the government did not own them. Railroads provided passenger service and it was part of a profit making system, even if some routes did not make a profit. So since the transportation systems provided "public service" and are needed, they are now subsidized or run by the government.

..If everyone who takes the New York Subway System drove a car, and parked that car, what would Manhatten be? A HUGE.......HUGE...parking lot.. The government helps provide that service, and businesses support that service. I live near Chicago. OK,i if all those that take the trains and elevated trains to downtown, drove their cars, there would be a 24 hour parking jam on the roads to and from downtown. Also to the airport. Yes, in Chicago there is public transportation to the airport and thousands take it daily..(it is a train that runs down the middle of the expressway..Yes it does)
........Often when there is a traffic jam on the expressway, you can see the commuter trains speed by on the railroad near the expressway. (Used to be the Chicago and NOrthwestern) now it is a government agency called METRA. No, it isn't rocket science, the expressway is backed up for miles, and the trains speed by. Yes they are loaded with hundreds of people, almost all sitting and some look out the windows and see the backup of cars on the expressway....
....Oh, you say that cannot be true?...Yes it is because where I live I can take the train to a station and get picked up, and the ride on the train is 20 minutes. The back up on the expressway could be an hour or more from when I leave the downtown area till I get to where I live in the suburbs. ..ok, that is enough from me on public transportation...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #30)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:22 PM

46. +1...nt

Sid

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #30)


Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:04 AM

32. Here's the definition for Capitalism...

...Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

So you have people in this thread posting the definition of Socialism and demand strict adherence....and yet, strict adherence to capitalism doesn't fit either.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #32)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:18 AM

34. And I agree with the last sentence completely..It is a ...."mixed system"

I believe that all economists who would study this and define it, would say ours is a "mixed system" of capitalism and socialism. Yes some aspects are more socialistic and of course some aspects are far more capitalistic.
One might say that paying for a ticket on an airplane is totally capitalistic. Why? because the ticket pays for the flight on the plane..Ok, we all know that. But who pays for the traffic controllers that keep the plane on course?..You know, those people in the tower who tell the planes when and where to land and take off. I think those are ....federal employees.. aren't they?.. Are all airports privately owned and run? Or are most publically owned and run?..

And that mixed system runs throughout our entire life system, or whatever you want to call it..

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:15 AM

35. We are all in mixed market economies. Socialism and capitalism work

side by side

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:30 AM

36. Oxford English Dictionary

socialism
n noun a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. ō(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

It's all semantics and people understand it differently. I prefer the broader meaning that capitalism is the private provision of something with a profit motive while socialism is the government provision of something without a profit motive, i.e. for the general welfare. For me the key is the profit motive or the lack thereof.

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Response to moondust (Reply #36)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:17 PM

42. +1 "owned or regulated" is the key.

When the FDA regulates the means of pharmaceutical production, that is a mixed capitalist/socialist system.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:22 PM

45. Stop it!

Sheer nonsense!

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Response to kennetha (Reply #45)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:25 PM

49. tongue-in-cheek, right?

I mean for the irony-impaired among us.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:26 PM

47. Here's solcialism...

http://www.wsws.org

Lots of socialist former DUers loved wsws as a source.

Or check out http://www.thebellforum.net/

It's where lots of those former DUers ended up.

Sid

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:33 PM

57. Its time we just embrace socialism!

Capitalism has got us in the mess we have now. Income inequality is unconscionable! Its time to embrace socialism as a better system to capitalism - lets own it!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 06:51 PM

63. I think as soon as we mention liberty and justice for all...

or equal protection under the law, or civil rights and liberties, we're talking about the "state" having an interest in the "public good." It could be argued that's "socialistic."

I think it is, and I think it's great. It's what it means to be part of a community (oooh- community sounds like communism). It's about being fellow citizens united, in it together, working for each other and for shared values.

The names and symbols take on meanings and trigger ideas they shouldn't, but once they do, they do. "Communism" and "Socialism" as philosophies aren't scary or evil -- but what the words have come to represent, tied to totalitarian dictators, is. Nevermind that this autocracy is the rightwing's playbook, and the antithesis of democracy.

One more example. When I was a kid, we said the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag every morning and sang a patriotic song. The school had a big Flag Day celebration at the end of the year, emphasizing what it symbolizes -- our unity, equality, values, citizenship, concern for each other. Some could call that socialist indoctrination these days. Others might say the right wing now owns it all as slogans. Right now, I am still all for it.

If there ever comes a day when the American flag stands for Trump, I hope we'll change the flag along with its meaning.

If there ever comes a time when the word "legal asylum" means "family separation," I hop we make it illegal and create a new name for accepting refugees.

In other words, the main tenets of socialism are good, but if the word has come to stand for something that isn't, shift.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 07:01 PM

64. roads and the military?

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